Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:25 PM

pat_k (9,287 posts)

The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by

Last edited Fri Mar 10, 2017, 03:49 PM - Edit history (3)

... the Democratic leadership's refusal to do their duty and defend the Constitution they swore to uphold by fighting, win or lose, for:

1. Impeachment of Reagan for Iran-Contra.
2. Prosecution of Bush Sr. when the extent of his role in Iran contra was exposed.
3. An objection to the unlawfully appointed FL electors on Jan 6, 2001, as was their duty under the electoral count act.
4. Impeachment of Bush/Cheney for torture.

Too many of them failed to protect the constitution from Alito when they refused to join a winning filibuster that would actually have stopped him, and instead cast their useless No votes on the floor. Thinking things like "I opposed Alito, even tho I refused to do the one thing guaranteed to stop him" is the sort of thinking that has earned them their wimpy reputation.

As if their failure to stand and fight for our founding principles weren't devastating enough, they have stubbornly adhered to a policy of preemptive surrender on the proposed solutions they claim to support (The "Can't Win, So Don't Fight" policy.)

They give lip service to universal health care, progressive tax reform, ending mass incarceration, consumer protections, financial system protections, and on and on, but the leadership of our party almost NEVER actually takes concrete action. Over, and over, and over again they have refused to "whip up" support for proposals and bills that would make a real difference. The ONLY way to make a case to the American people for real change is to actually MAKE THE CASE.

Making a case for getting a slice of bread does not win hearts and minds over to the idea that we need, and can get, the whole loaf. Making the case for getting a slice does not demonstrate strength and leadership. It says "We are too weak to do the things that will make a REAL difference in your lives." Not a stirring message.

Fighting, win or lose, is how you make things happen. It's how you demonstrate the strength the electorate craves. Chances of "winning" today are irrelevant. Fighting now makes it possible to win down the line.

Until the Democratic leadership really "gets" this, our downward spiral will continue.

They could learn something from the right-wingnuts who unceasingly advocate for things long considered DOA. (Look at how many of those formerly DOA ideas are on the verge of becoming reality.) The Democratic leadership has not provided an effective counterpoint to the relentless corporatist/reactionary drum beat for decades.

The bottom line: The party leadership's immoral refusal to stand and fight for the Constitution coupled with their cowardly policy of preemptive surrender paved the road to our current hell.

The post asserting that the "extreme left gave us Nixon, Bush and now Trump" couldn't be more wrong. The REAL problem is the leadership's irrational phobia that they will look "too extreme" if they actually fight for meaningful change. Promoting the wrongheaded notion that the "extreme left" is the problem feeds their phobia. If you want to turn things around challenge their irrational fear. Help them overcome their phobia and step up.

______________________________-
On Edit: For those who see this as "bashing" and would call me a "Democrat hater," or who think I am being an apologist for the voters who opted out, perhaps the following posts will help you recognize what I am actually saying: Posts #449 and #274.

An example of what I mean by "driving the policy debate": Post #399

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536 replies	Author	Time	Post
The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by (Original post)	pat_k	Mar 2017	OP
What 'extreme left?'	dchill	Mar 2017	#1
The OP is Wrong.. Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump	Cha	Mar 2017	#111
What makes you think that those Jill Stein voters	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#116
I stand by the article.. "Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton "	Cha	Mar 2017	#119
That comes with the assumption that Hillary would have received the votes	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#173
It's doesn't matter.. if they voted or stayed home.. they still fucked it up.	Cha	Mar 2017	#176
I simply don't like the idea	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#180
Didn't say they "owed" anything. Apparently not even the Planet..	Cha	Mar 2017	#181
15% of voters nationwide	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#183
How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin	Cha	Mar 2017	#191
I read that this morning	True Blue American	Mar 2017	#251
And here is another level truly salient in the 2016 election results -- "Nobody won..."	Samantha	Mar 2017	#193
and there's biggest problem and our challange is to get them on our side	Ligyron	Mar 2017	#330
The leadership has done a great job...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#370
We've been naming "one of the factors" -- spreading	Hortensis	Mar 2017	#229
One hundred million Trump- and non-voters fucked it up.	Orsino	Mar 2017	#243
I agree with this.	SpankMe	Mar 2017	#279
I'm not sure we can even lump all the non-voters together, tempting as it is.	Orsino	Mar 2017	#286
Absolutely!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#377
In my view...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#374
And people on this very site bragged about voting	cwydro	Mar 2017	#305
You are missing the fact that both Stein and Johnson votes increase exponentially since 2008/2012.	boston bean	Mar 2017	#244
Because Stein did get votes	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#321
Well lets see, in Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote	still_one	Mar 2017	#139
"Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton	Cha	Mar 2017	#152
The numbers are there Cha, thanks	still_one	Mar 2017	#155
Not that I don't see the point	angrychair	Mar 2017	#258
Of course the responsibility with what we will be going through the next 4 years lies	still_one	Mar 2017	#314
I don't disagree - the elephant in the room is that a hostile foreign power	PatrickforO	Mar 2017	#329
Keep fighting the good fight!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#395
I've also looked at the 2012 and 2008 results in those states	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#177
As I said those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third	still_one	Mar 2017	#187
and I'm saying that a majority of those voters	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#238
I understand your point. You may not be aware, but we lost a good number of folks here who said	still_one	Mar 2017	#246
Even if you were to accept the premise that every Stein vote....	pat_k	Mar 2017	#393
It not just Stein voters	Trumpocalypse	Mar 2017	#521
Absolutely.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#525
Just out of curiosity....	vi5	Mar 2017	#308
And Comey, and Putin ...	Lil Missy	Mar 2017	#135
YES! Mahalo, Lil Missy	Cha	Mar 2017	#140
....	Lil Missy	Mar 2017	#265
Let's don't take any responsibility for any of this.	KPN	Mar 2017	#159
I posting the article in response to the first sentence of the OP.. there are other	Cha	Mar 2017	#163
I get all that.	KPN	Mar 2017	#165
You may get it.. but the OP doesn't or that wouldn't have been the 1st	Cha	Mar 2017	#170
What is it that you think I "don't get'??	pat_k	Mar 2017	#190
I disagree with you on that too.	KPN	Mar 2017	#375
Exactly. You'd think that four months later,	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#287
+1	JudyM	Mar 2017	#503
How curious that you're beating up the female candidate, when Gary Johnson (L)...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#282
Very good point	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#288
LOL So much ire toward Stein when good ol' Gary was the bigger menace...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#303
It does seem lately that there is an effort to shut down (or shout out) progressives in here.	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#315
The "angry, bitter minority" had vastly different positions at one time. VASTLY.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#323
+ 1000	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#345
Show me anywhere where ANY of "these same folks" have EVER shown ANY tendency to support cuts to	Squinch	Mar 2017	#480
Agree completely.	JudyM	Mar 2017	#504
You call exposing "beating up".. "How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin"	Cha	Mar 2017	#347
Will you do a 180 on Stein like you did with Hillary?	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#351
Oh good.. all you have are insults.. no defending stein on being a putin troll?	Cha	Mar 2017	#353
Exactly... "no defending stein on being a putin troll."	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#354
Good there is no defense of the Liar stein.. she owns a chunk of trump	Cha	Mar 2017	#355
Gary Johnson owns a bigger chunk. And how much...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#356
Hey.. don't forget about fuckng james comey of the FBI.. and the Russians..	Cha	Mar 2017	#382
Is that what you call it.. "an enquiring mind"? lol	Cha	Mar 2017	#383
Post removed	Post removed	Mar 2017	#318
No, Hillary did not "spoil" the Election... and your saying that does not	Cha	Mar 2017	#364
Do you ever hear Republicans unloading on Ross Perot?	BlueWI	Mar 2017	#492
The "Extreme left gave us..." post..	pat_k	Mar 2017	#130
Your list in your post "It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." isn't complete...	George II	Mar 2017	#455
Me? Group 1.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#461
Are you serious? Let's review:	George II	Mar 2017	#462
I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#463
Bashing the crap out of them for things that happened more than a decade and a half ago...	George II	Mar 2017	#464
You've made that pretty clear.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#467
P.S. You neglected to say what group I need to add	pat_k	Mar 2017	#468
If you hate the party so much, then why post at a place for Democrats?	bravenak	Mar 2017	#2
Who's worse, a criminal committing a crime, or a cop that looks the other way?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#9
Fight Trump for fuck's sake!	bravenak	Mar 2017	#10
Exactly bravenak.	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#23
It's kinda strange that we should only listen to those who are fighting us	bravenak	Mar 2017	#25
strange...	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#30
We've seen this show before. Tiresome.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#68
This is not fighing you!!!	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#138
exactly	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#272
...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#46
"For fuck's sake" the way to fight DT is to kick Dems in the butt to go all out	pat_k	Mar 2017	#40
You fight him by kicking our asses? How the hell does that make any sense?	bravenak	Mar 2017	#65
The point is to get MORE of them to vote no.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#70
No you're kicking the Democratic Party over stupid shit.	JHan	Mar 2017	#83
+1	bravenak	Mar 2017	#88
I can't take the motherfucking bullshit anymore I swear...	JHan	Mar 2017	#90
Half the shit they mad at happened before we were born	bravenak	Mar 2017	#98
and Iran-fucking-contra really?	JHan	Mar 2017	#103
I was still in Buster Browns during Iran Contra.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#105
+100000000000000000000	JHan	Mar 2017	#108
Anyone who likens anger over Iran-Contra to a "grudge"...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#143
I know because I study history..	JHan	Mar 2017	#144
Right-o. You "study history," but are you LEARNING from it?	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#146
what makes you think I am not aware of the impact of history ?	JHan	Mar 2017	#147
Meh.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#157
Naw you keep thinking about past fevers from long ago and keep misconstruing my point..	JHan	Mar 2017	#158
Be sure to let us know...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#162
Nighty night, sweet dreams!	JHan	Mar 2017	#167
LEARN FROM HISTORY.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#171
Lol.	JHan	Mar 2017	#179
"Iran-Contra taught the Republicans that they can get away with anything"...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#293
I blame Republicans.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#299
And Democrats who didn't fight that are off the hook in your world?	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#301
Who? I don't know who you're talking about.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#302
Seems to be a deafening silence in response.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#422
Actually, when Ford pardoned Nixon	charlyvi	Mar 2017	#322
Very good point.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#324
IKR! But sometimes it needs to be reinforced	charlyvi	Mar 2017	#326
But nothing matters since certain posters were still in their Buster Browns!	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#331
Here is a thread I recently started about Iran-Contra and its relation to what is happening today.	StevieM	Mar 2017	#186
Thanks, that's a rational analysis.	JHan	Mar 2017	#192
"Iran-Contra taught the Republicans that they can get away with anything."	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#294
Let's not forget the destruction of Acorn.	StevieM	Mar 2017	#185
Ugh, yes. PERFECT example.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#296
Thanks.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#188
Absolutely no one in this thread is saying to ignore history...	JHan	Mar 2017	#197
Someone who can rationalization doing nothing to stop torture...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#205
What are you going to impeach him on right now as of this moment?	JHan	Mar 2017	#207
For starters...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#212
that doesn't answer the question about impeachment:	JHan	Mar 2017	#237
I have answered the question.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#276
And secondly, your accusations that Democrats have not made the moral case for issues...	JHan	Mar 2017	#200
I didn't say "Democrats" I said "Democratic Leadership"...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#203
I don't understand that assessment..	JHan	Mar 2017	#206
Who said anything about demonizing corporations?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#210
You said it,	JHan	Mar 2017	#241
All good	pat_k	Mar 2017	#274
Ok. I get that..	JHan	Mar 2017	#285
Good post. My awareness started with seeing the body bags from Vietnam...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#300
And that diminishes it... how? (n/t)	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#141
if you want to whip the democratic party over some shit over 3 decades ago here.. hell..	JHan	Mar 2017	#145
Newsflash: It ain't all about you... things are CRITICAL right now for all ages.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#148
I just answered all this in the other post.	JHan	Mar 2017	#149
I was not of age to vote then, but I was alive at least.	herding cats	Mar 2017	#211
You two are both blind to why trying to fight Trump with Democratic politicians	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#270
Funny how the folks with the least wins think they have all the answers on winning	bravenak	Mar 2017	#271
Funny how the folks that keep losing...House,....Senate.....SCOTUS......State governorships...	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#289
"Build it and they will come."	pat_k	Mar 2017	#397
Excellent, JH.. and Just to be Clear about the "extreme left".. "not" giving us trump as the OP ..	Cha	Mar 2017	#97
they should collectively slap themselves.	JHan	Mar 2017	#113
They should most certainly give a shit.. but they don't.	Cha	Mar 2017	#114
+2	betsuni	Mar 2017	#106
+1000	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#142
The point is to get more of us to run locally to get in. Not forcing ones already in to vote no.	haele	Mar 2017	#325
It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#333
In our system apathy is not an unreasonable response.	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#433
I would LOVE to see instant runoff/ ranked choice voting in primaries!!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#443
We need DEMOCRATIC elections... and IRV is crucial...	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#453
YES!!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#458
are you really thinking this through?	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#485
My only point is that absent clarity and sufficient consensus on basic principles, there...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#486
there's will be no snowball effect...	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#489
I am an optimist at heart.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#493
where's the evidence Dems believe in....	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#509
It is to get more voters	treestar	Mar 2017	#77
Dems will get more voters if the Dem leadership...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#283
+1000!	mcar	Mar 2017	#52
It's tiresome. It's why I'm trying to pull myself away from here	bravenak	Mar 2017	#66
Haven't we learned anything?	mcar	Mar 2017	#73
Me too. I'm at the point of simply ignoring them and not giving them traction anymore	bravenak	Mar 2017	#86
This thread is alive and well in spite of your "ignoring them"...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#304
Bashing?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#82
thankyou pat_k for facing the storm paralized paranoid thinkers.	LiberalLovinLug	Mar 2017	#110
Nothing brings out the claws more than...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#160
excellent post, excellent point	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#273
Amen Bravenak!	Justice	Mar 2017	#182
you could say the same for people who want to spend their energy taking it to the "far left." Which	JCanete	Mar 2017	#214
I can't help but wonder how many...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#218
I wouldn't say it. We are fighting republicans constantly while they simply fight us	bravenak	Mar 2017	#291
that isn't true of this poster, and he's listed that over and over. It isn't true that nobody is	JCanete	Mar 2017	#298
Get your head out of the sand.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#290
All you have all insults.. maybe you just heed your own orders.	Cha	Mar 2017	#386
can you agree we should reform to fight Trump HARD???	Fast Walker 52	Mar 2017	#92
And, trying to absolve jill stein's LIES and part ownership of trump.	Cha	Mar 2017	#17
Jill Stein has never been a friend of the democratic party	bravenak	Mar 2017	#24
If you bothered to actually read anything I've posted...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#45
All you have are insults.."The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump" stein owns a Chunk of it..	Cha	Mar 2017	#60
Where did you get the bizarre idea...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#67
The "extreme left" was part owner of giving us trump.	Cha	Mar 2017	#71
Stein would be completely irrelevant to this discussion	Warpy	Mar 2017	#80
You're wrong.. stein won by more in Michigan, Pennsylvania, & Wisconsin	Cha	Mar 2017	#89
I'll say it again	Warpy	Mar 2017	#117
She LIED to get those votes... stein is a russian stooge.. if she were	Cha	Mar 2017	#390
Nailed it. Our outlooks and behaviors define	Hortensis	Mar 2017	#19
Yeah, I see they feeling themselves today	bravenak	Mar 2017	#22
They need to feel shame for their part in electing 45,	Hortensis	Mar 2017	#35
They will never feel bad for or admit their part in that	bravenak	Mar 2017	#39
Silence would be great, and maybe they'll dislike	Hortensis	Mar 2017	#53
Oh yeah. That gets me	bravenak	Mar 2017	#61
What "They" are you talking about?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#398
How many meetings with Members of Congress have you attended?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#57
So did you tell them their failure to impeach	treestar	Mar 2017	#232
The "Do you know who am AM?" defense is hilarious.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#235
Also assuming no one else here has done anything like it	mcar	Mar 2017	#247
No assumption. Just wondering.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#278
No. Focused on eliciting, and challenging, the rationalizations for inaction.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#277
There are many reasons why Hillary lost.	kacekwl	Mar 2017	#29
I want to hear ideas from people who know how to win and know who the enemy is.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#55
That would seem to support the OP's point then.	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#91
And how has kicking Dems in the ass been a winner? It hasn't. The far left as not racked up	bravenak	Mar 2017	#100
I wish someone would have kicked them into useful action long before now.	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#102
I long for the far left to help or be silent.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#104
Maybe I am just old enough to remember when Democrats didn't buy into Reaganomics.	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#107
+1	Go Vols	Mar 2017	#134
Thank You Gore1FL	pat_k	Mar 2017	#217
Hey, there are still six states to lose!	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#307
The graphic below, since 1995, is not something to be proud of.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#309
thanks!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#64
And, one reason is "extreme left" jill stein's LIES who owns a chunk of trump...	Cha	Mar 2017	#75
Takeoff on that old Broadway hit: "A funny thing happened on the way to Democratic Underground".	George II	Mar 2017	#33
lol	bravenak	Mar 2017	#59
Your response blows chunks	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#260
They love it so much that they refuse to fight trump	bravenak	Mar 2017	#266
who is "they" ?	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#268
If you dont know... That's too bad, cause I don't have time to repeat myself all day.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#269
you apparently have more than enough time	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#275
Not for you today. No time. Got class.	bravenak	Mar 2017	#280
"We can learn from RW wingnuts" ?	bettyellen	Mar 2017	#3
Not sure what the question is.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#12
I've commented several times, only once here, about my disappointment that single	notdarkyet	Mar 2017	#48
THERE WERE NEVER ENOUGH VOTES FOR SINGLE PAYER!	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#69
Forget single payer!	cannabis_flower	Mar 2017	#93
The public option was killed because of Joe Lieberman, that was his price for his vote	betsuni	Mar 2017	#120
This drives me nuts. How do people not know this?	betsuni	Mar 2017	#121
I am beyond angry.	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#123
Just because you can't win you don't try?	Exilednight	Mar 2017	#127
Do the math.	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#132
Okay, let's follow your logic to its logical conclusion.	Exilednight	Mar 2017	#227
Seems to be a deafening silence in response.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#401
Really pat?	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#497
Apologies	pat_k	Mar 2017	#498
We were talking about ACA!	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#496
I didn't put words in your mouth, I just followed your logic.	Exilednight	Mar 2017	#510
They should not be blaming the Dems but out there	treestar	Mar 2017	#234
So, free the leaders of the burden of leading?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#402
We have the push the other voters	treestar	Mar 2017	#431
Of course, but it's possible to "walk and chew gum" at the same time.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#445
I do not understand why you are so antagonistic to Dems.	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#499
Bottom up/Top Down	pat_k	Mar 2017	#500
Utterly and completely irrelevant. You're putting the cart before the horse.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#400
but those who attack obama and other dems for it do NOT fight for it either	JI7	Mar 2017	#198
I don't live in Colorado.	Exilednight	Mar 2017	#219
"Everyone loves an underdog, but everyone hates a quitter."	pat_k	Mar 2017	#494
While I agree that single payer didn't have a chance	NewJeffCT	Mar 2017	#256
You prove the OP's point	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#429
Which is why you make the case...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#495
And keep talking about it!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#201
Universal Health Care must be front and center.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#399
Great post!	True Dough	Mar 2017	#511
True. And if we don't make the case -- loud and proud -- we will never generate the political will.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#512
Not just a great post...	True Dough	Mar 2017	#514
One thing I've learned is that...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#518
I read the entire post	True Dough	Mar 2017	#523
Apologies for length	pat_k	Mar 2017	#527
As well as constantly trying to reach out to right wing lunatics	RoadhogRidesAgain	Mar 2017	#4
Yes. The notion that it's a left/moderate/right divide is flat wrong.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#14
The extreme left did give us trump..	Cha	Mar 2017	#109
I didn't vote for Stien	RoadhogRidesAgain	Mar 2017	#125
agreed!	gopiscrap	Mar 2017	#5
All that and not a single line about racist vote suppression	Starry Messenger	Mar 2017	#6
I agree	MountCleaners	Mar 2017	#13
Sorry I don't explicitly list all the things I work for in one post.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#36
+1000	brer cat	Mar 2017	#18
"Astounding" that I don't list every issue in every single post?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#199
You've been around long enough.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#26
+1000.	Hortensis	Mar 2017	#28
In re: my supposed bigotry, see post #36	pat_k	Mar 2017	#475
I noticed that too.	bettyellen	Mar 2017	#51
See post #36	pat_k	Mar 2017	#474
Right.. or that jill stein Gave us trump..	Cha	Mar 2017	#112
Regarding my supposed bigotry, see Post #36	pat_k	Mar 2017	#473
We've been losing ground for forty years	truebluegreen	Mar 2017	#126
Oh, and BTW, mass incarceration,	pat_k	Mar 2017	#136
in their world there is no racism .	JI7	Mar 2017	#150
See post #36	pat_k	Mar 2017	#472
+1	La Lioness Priyanka	Mar 2017	#444
See post #36	pat_k	Mar 2017	#471
Agree. An example of the contrast is Inslee and WA delegation stand against travel ban.	suffragette	Mar 2017	#7
Hey Suffragette!!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#476
While I think your rant is a wee bit 'over the top'	Stonepounder	Mar 2017	#8
It is Democratic Party	brer cat	Mar 2017	#15
...	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#27
Really	mcar	Mar 2017	#58
It happens to be.. The Democratic Party, Stonepounder.. and jill stein owns	Cha	Mar 2017	#62
Cory Booker is 44, Chris Murphy is 39, Kamala Harris is 52,	moonscape	Mar 2017	#87
The extreme left caused Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, throw in Nixon and Ford.	Blue_true	Mar 2017	#11
You will not absolve jill stein's LIES.. she owns a chunk of trump and those who got suckered..	Cha	Mar 2017	#16
Sing it, sister!	brer cat	Mar 2017	#21
Yeah, let's get some ******* Reality here.	Cha	Mar 2017	#31
We don't have time for this shit.	brer cat	Mar 2017	#37
No, we do not have time for this BLAME the DEMS game Absolve	Cha	Mar 2017	#54
Like Ralph Nader in 2000,	lapucelle	Mar 2017	#63
I wonder if any investigation	brer cat	Mar 2017	#78
We also would't have Chief Justice Roberts,	lapucelle	Mar 2017	#81
+1	treestar	Mar 2017	#79
Why are you conflating the poster's points with Jill Stein?	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#99
Beating a fucking dead horse.	alarimer	Mar 2017	#245
Tell that to fucking jill stein	Cha	Mar 2017	#249
Gary Johnson (L) was the much bigger issue...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#313
Lame Blame Game	Dem2	Mar 2017	#20
was this the inspiration?	DonCoquixote	Mar 2017	#32
Yes.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#220
You forgot to add this:	George II	Mar 2017	#34
...	brer cat	Mar 2017	#41
.	George II	Mar 2017	#43
THIS	sheshe2	Mar 2017	#72
Baloney, this is entirely the fault of the extreme left.	Foamfollower	Mar 2017	#38
Not so.	warmfeet	Mar 2017	#56
Yep	Go Vols	Mar 2017	#76
No they didn't	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#94
No, 308,000 Bush-voting Florida Democrats gave us Duyba.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#166
This obvious fact will never be addressed by Third Way apologists.	BlueWI	Mar 2017	#505
Mostly disagree.	Act_of_Reparation	Mar 2017	#42
Excellent points. You'll get flamed. Hang in there n/t	leftstreet	Mar 2017	#44
So someone didn't get their pony so they figure screw everyone else?	Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin	Mar 2017	#47
A little too much hyperbole, but I agree with the poster.	PatrickforO	Mar 2017	#49
AMEN! nt	Susan Calvin	Mar 2017	#306
The extreme left that voted for Bush in Florida in 2000? The extreme left that picked Reagan?	Rex	Mar 2017	#50
any proof any of that	treestar	Mar 2017	#74
Could we at least start bu calling crimes "crimes"? nt	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#96
Agree. They have good	zentrum	Mar 2017	#84
I agree with much of what you say. Voter apathy is consequence.	jalan48	Mar 2017	#85
The Sane "Progressive" Makes the Exact Same Points!	TomCADem	Mar 2017	#95
Turned it off after she said both sides. FUCK RON PAUL.	Raine1967	Mar 2017	#128
The So-Called "Sane" Progressive...	LovingA2andMI	Mar 2017	#161
You nailed it	emulatorloo	Mar 2017	#254
My brother has a very good theory about company names and monikers	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#365
Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton.. there goes your premise..	Cha	Mar 2017	#101
I blame James Comey a lot more than I do Jill Stein.	StevieM	Mar 2017	#336
Oh comey was at fault too but the LIES stein told and in Swing States Cost us the election..	Cha	Mar 2017	#339
I don't dispute that Stein, like Nader, cost us the presidency.	StevieM	Mar 2017	#344
You are correct, of course. Too many here don't remember when the Democrats weren't cowards	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#115
as opposed to...what exactly?	Chitown Kev	Mar 2017	#118
As opposed to democrats who cower in a corner and cry "don't hurt me." nt	Gore1FL	Mar 2017	#124
Also, as much as I love Obama, I also criticize him for not calling out the Republicans enough	Akamai	Mar 2017	#122
K&R	burrowowl	Mar 2017	#129
The push to convince us we can only be center right to alt-right is well underway. It's	brewens	Mar 2017	#131
Another "Show us on the dolly where the Democratic Party touched you" post.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#133
everytime they post things like that on the internet they feel like tough rebels	JI7	Mar 2017	#151
yes	mike_c	Mar 2017	#137
LOLOLOL, So White people supported Trump because REagan,Bush etc wasn't impeached , indicted Etc ?	JI7	Mar 2017	#153
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but note the absolution this gives to racist whites. nt	msanthrope	Mar 2017	#419
I understand where youre coming from. But since we cant go back, we must go forward and keep this	caroldansen	Mar 2017	#154
I don't think anyone in particular gave us The Con. For DECADES I've been told we should elect	napi21	Mar 2017	#156
Good, honest post.	KPN	Mar 2017	#164
It's not really 'so many' that take it personally	melman	Mar 2017	#168
All you have are insults.. you need to take a look at yourself.	Cha	Mar 2017	#172
"The usual group of obnoxious trolls that has made this place so unbearable."	betsuni	Mar 2017	#174
Yeah, sounds like projection to me.	Cha	Mar 2017	#178
It is! Typical.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#184
...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#316
Post removed	Post removed	Mar 2017	#317
No, it is not a "good honest post".. the first sentence is wrong..	Cha	Mar 2017	#175
Lets just say we disagree.	KPN	Mar 2017	#371
Brave words on DU at this time. But I agree.	Crunchy Frog	Mar 2017	#169
Meanwhile people are going to die.	herding cats	Mar 2017	#189
Excellent Post, herding cats! Some freaking Reality.. How Refreshing even	Cha	Mar 2017	#194
Thanks, Cha.	herding cats	Mar 2017	#202
I know.. it seems ridiculous to me.. lets blame the Dems because	Cha	Mar 2017	#204
Ridiculous, that's an excellent choice of words.	herding cats	Mar 2017	#208
+1	betsuni	Mar 2017	#195
Yep, and the excuse from the OP and those that agree with them for not opposing this is that those	stevenleser	Mar 2017	#436
Excuse for not opposing what?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#469
No, it is not the extreme left and who is the extreme left by your	akbacchus_BC	Mar 2017	#196
Here's the post I'm responding to:	pat_k	Mar 2017	#216
Albeit late but thanks for your response. In hindsight, trump promised people things he	akbacchus_BC	Mar 2017	#378
You have no moral high ground	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#209
exactly, black members get no recognition	JI7	Mar 2017	#213
Re-read my post.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#223
Congress, and only Congress, can Impeach.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#215
Your argument still lacks logic	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#222
Standing ovation	betsuni	Mar 2017	#224
Re-read my post.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#221
You are justifying collaboration with the right in electing Trump	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#225
The hell I am.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#226
Your phrase "self-entitled ourgeoisie" to describe the "left" who voted against Hillary	delisen	Mar 2017	#239
Please quote something I said that does any of the things you claim I'm doing.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#284
Nixon was forced from office	nolabels	Mar 2017	#230
I don't usually. . .	pat_k	Mar 2017	#281
Eight or ten years ago things were much more worthwhile at DU	nolabels	Mar 2017	#312
Yes, "back in the day"...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#332
+100000000	treestar	Mar 2017	#228
Thread win!	mcar	Mar 2017	#248
Excellent series of posts.	emulatorloo	Mar 2017	#252
your response is cowardly	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#261
mostly white men who see attacks on minorities as strength	JI7	Mar 2017	#292
that's bull	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#295
lol. they do and white men mostly go for the bigots. thats why they still approve of trump	JI7	Mar 2017	#319
What they respond to is STRENGTH	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#357
What does Donald Trump believe?	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#362
I'm not talking about revolutionaries	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#416
yes, they agree with hating and attacks on minorities. that's what matters to them . Trump is strong	JI7	Mar 2017	#369
Strength doesn't have to be tied to racism	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#413
if strength is truth than trumps bigotry is truth	JI7	Mar 2017	#430
Keep fighting that strawman.	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#434
they voted for an openly racist candidate and continue to support him	JI7	Mar 2017	#438
and what does that have to do with Democrats fighting hard	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#439
because it's important to know where voters stand if you want their votes	JI7	Mar 2017	#440
right. And your thesis is that racism is more enticing than strength/dominance behavior	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#441
in their case it's about racism. many who voted Hillary saw her as strong	JI7	Mar 2017	#442
I saw her as pretty strong myself.	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#446
that was before Obama became president. with non white people	JI7	Mar 2017	#451
I'm going to explain this to you one more time, slowly, just in case we can have a meeting	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#454
you need to first admit they are bigots then it's not difficult to understand	JI7	Mar 2017	#456
Of course there are bigots, and reactionaries, and authoritarians...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#466
There is "Strong and Wrong" and "Strong and Right"	pat_k	Mar 2017	#465
"Strength is truth, spoken with conviction, framed in a moral matrix, and backed up by action"	pat_k	Mar 2017	#460
Strength, like Donald Trump?	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#361
What in the fucking hell are you going on about?	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#414
They are being very vocal	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#515
You are objectively pro-fascist	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#516
Of course your response isn't "cowardly".. all they have ignornant insults	Cha	Mar 2017	#264
And I'm sure that defending those victims meekly	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#418
Oh, good grief!	NurseJackie	Mar 2017	#231
That OP is an example of the propoganda against Democrats	Progressive dog	Mar 2017	#233
No it is not.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#470
I read what you said here.	Progressive dog	Mar 2017	#479
"Apparently even to you???"	pat_k	Mar 2017	#483
you wrote "This is NOT about 'bashing'"	Progressive dog	Mar 2017	#502
Yeah, um, no. The extreme left gave us Jill Stein. It also gives us calls 2 primary current Dems	msanthrope	Mar 2017	#236
No, that road was paved by presumed "democrats" (not Democrats)....	George II	Mar 2017	#240
Don't forget the DLC and Third Way nonsense.	alarimer	Mar 2017	#242
+1,000.	HughBeaumont	Mar 2017	#253
The DLC hasn't been in existence for more than six years. How could they have driven people away...	George II	Mar 2017	#257
They need to get up to speed with their insulting labels.	Cha	Mar 2017	#262
It's all Harry Truman's fault.	George II	Mar 2017	#263
Senator Joe Lieberman (D), 2008 John McCain (R) supporter...	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#328
you really should let that go. Hillary won me over just like she	Cha	Mar 2017	#425
Or not.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#342
Twenty-six years of damage is not easily undone.	SMC22307	Mar 2017	#327
"Third-way" was born out of the leadership's fear of "backlash"..	pat_k	Mar 2017	#341
Totally Disagree with you!	DownriverDem	Mar 2017	#250
Not sure what post you are responding to...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#338
A lot of people don't want to admit that the dems had any responsibility in this clusterfuck.	CrispyQ	Mar 2017	#255
Hear fucking hear	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#259
Thank you so much!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#337
glad to be able to help, in some small way	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#358
if they fight to go after black and brown people. Trump supporters LOVE	JI7	Mar 2017	#372
Do you/others really think that strength equals racism?	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#417
Grab them by the pussy Strength	JI7	Mar 2017	#373
Say what you will about the Oaf of Office	ProfessorPlum	Mar 2017	#412
NONSENSE ALERT!!!	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#267
And if more of us...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#335
if you're blaming the Dems for not reforming the Constitution....	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#363
Did you even bother to look at the link??	pat_k	Mar 2017	#368
I'm well aware of the NPV... what's your point?	eniwetok	Mar 2017	#376
Spot on!	Fantastic Anarchist	Mar 2017	#297
Maybe that's why the GOP is winning elections	Trumpocalypse	Mar 2017	#424
Your assumption is weak.	Fantastic Anarchist	Mar 2017	#426
Not an assumption	Trumpocalypse	Mar 2017	#508
I don't know, but to me it sure seems like voter apathy put...	iscooterliberally	Mar 2017	#310
In my view...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#320
Understood. I actually signed up as a Democrat because or Bernie Sanders & Elizabeth Warren.	iscooterliberally	Mar 2017	#437
The OP you are referring to is total garbage.	Rex	Mar 2017	#311
Oh you're wrong, Rex.. dead wrong. There was no "revisionist" history	Cha	Mar 2017	#340
Thanks to all who Recommended!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#334
Of of all the reasons to pick	Eko	Mar 2017	#343
"Strong and Wrong" v. Weak and Right" v. "Strong and Right"	pat_k	Mar 2017	#346
Sure, what you are saying is correct to a point.	Eko	Mar 2017	#349
What? Where am i "asking us to be wrong.."??	pat_k	Mar 2017	#360
These people were "weak but right"	Eko	Mar 2017	#352
Are you kidding? Those people are icons of strength!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#359
Mahalo, Eko!	Cha	Mar 2017	#348
nope,	Eko	Mar 2017	#350
This thread has twice the recs	Go Vols	Mar 2017	#366
Cha and Bravenak, thanks for doing a Great Job keeping the OP kicked!!	pat_k	Mar 2017	#367
Let me put it to you another way	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#380
"You and others had repeatedly argued that the left didn't affect the election results in any way."	pat_k	Mar 2017	#384
Damn the torpedos ...	Go Vols	Mar 2017	#385
That post does not support what you claim	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#391
No, I said none of that.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#394
Let's review then	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#396
Are you kidding?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#403
Non responsive. Nt	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#406
P.S.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#404
I asked a simple question	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#405
A request for a tally of votes lost the party over three decades is NOT "a simple question."	pat_k	Mar 2017	#407
I told you I was not asking for a tally	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#408
No	pat_k	Mar 2017	#409
"The extreme left didn't give us Trump"	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#410
This is pointless.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#411
You have an aversion to logic	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#415
You are being intentionally obtuse.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#420
It's a War on Logic.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#423
Deleted reply to wrong post	pat_k	Mar 2017	#477
Logic based on erroneous assumptions is fatally flawed.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#478
I've never made that claim either, and I've had a few recent conversations with you on this topic.	JCanete	Mar 2017	#447
Take the hint	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#448
You don't have to be interested. It's still here if other people are. Personally, I find it	JCanete	Mar 2017	#452
I appreciate the post.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#481
that is going to be very hard to do. It just takes continuing to be patient i think, and putting in	JCanete	Mar 2017	#501
Takes a lot of work to count up everyone's posts in a thread. But...	George II	Mar 2017	#457
Nah. Pull the "index" into a table and sort by poster. Piece of cake.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#459
I want to thank them too, for proving your assertions wrong so all can see. nt	stevenleser	Mar 2017	#534
See #532	pat_k	Mar 2017	#536
The "extreme left" was only reason #3 for Trump	Ruy Lopez	Mar 2017	#379
Except there is significant overlap	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#381
Let me know how	Ruy Lopez	Mar 2017	#388
The overlap	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#392
You must have misread my post	Ruy Lopez	Mar 2017	#528
You mentioned voters motivated by race	BainsBane	Mar 2017	#530
I think I see where the misunderstanding comes from	Ruy Lopez	Mar 2017	#531
Both reasons pale in comparison.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#387
Bill Clinton's campaign mantra: "It's the economy, stupid"	Ruy Lopez	Mar 2017	#389
The alt-left certainly did help.	democratisphere	Mar 2017	#421
Of course. As did low participation, and many other factors... See Post #525	pat_k	Mar 2017	#526
if stein voters weren't extreme left...then who is?...every vote for her was a vote for trump	beachbum bob	Mar 2017	#427
What paved the road to the "balance point"?	pat_k	Mar 2017	#449
Exactly what comprises the monolithic "party leadership" circa 1985-2017?	lapucelle	Mar 2017	#482
It will take me awhile to dig up quotes from the leadership...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#484
Why not simply define what you mean by "leadership"?	lapucelle	Mar 2017	#487
Sorry. Thought that was a given.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#488
You forgot "president"	lapucelle	Mar 2017	#490
Of course...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#491
I feel this thing needs a musical interlude.	betsuni	Mar 2017	#428
LOL Grieg never knew	treestar	Mar 2017	#432
Nope, wishing doesn't make it so. There is no evidence for what you write. You just want it to be	stevenleser	Mar 2017	#435
See Post #449	pat_k	Mar 2017	#450
I saw it. Just more wishing to make it so. All unproven wild assertions. nt	stevenleser	Mar 2017	#532
So, it was right to...	pat_k	Mar 2017	#535
Strong, well-conceived OP. I'd toss in also the bandwidth and high ground our leadership loses	JudyM	Mar 2017	#506
The Democrats lost because they hollowed out their principles.	backscatter712	Mar 2017	#507
Yes they did...they are spoilers who refuse to face reality and consider winning strategies...they	Demsrule86	Mar 2017	#513
See Post #393	pat_k	Mar 2017	#519
Every eligible voter who didn't vote for Clinton gave us this.	dawg	Mar 2017	#517
See Post #393	pat_k	Mar 2017	#520
Um ... yeah, I already saw that one.	dawg	Mar 2017	#522
Our primaries are great places to start ranked choice.	pat_k	Mar 2017	#524
What manner of absurd infighting is this?	VOX	Mar 2017	#529
Yes. The beating up on the so-called "extreme left" needs to stop (nt)	pat_k	Mar 2017	#533

Response to pat_k (Original post)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:29 PM

dchill (26,919 posts)

1. What 'extreme left?'

Who would that actually be?

The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by

1. What 'extreme left?'

111. The OP is Wrong.. Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump

116. What makes you think that those Jill Stein voters

119. I stand by the article.. "Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton "

173. That comes with the assumption that Hillary would have received the votes

176. It's doesn't matter.. if they voted or stayed home.. they still fucked it up.

180. I simply don't like the idea

181. Didn't say they "owed" anything. Apparently not even the Planet..

183. 15% of voters nationwide

191. How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin

251. I read that this morning

193. And here is another level truly salient in the 2016 election results -- "Nobody won..."

330. and there's biggest problem and our challange is to get them on our side

370. The leadership has done a great job...

229. We've been naming "one of the factors" -- spreading

243. One hundred million Trump- and non-voters fucked it up.

279. I agree with this.

286. I'm not sure we can even lump all the non-voters together, tempting as it is.

377. Absolutely!

374. In my view...

305. And people on this very site bragged about voting

244. You are missing the fact that both Stein and Johnson votes increase exponentially since 2008/2012.

321. Because Stein did get votes

139. Well lets see, in Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote

152. "Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton

155. The numbers are there Cha, thanks

258. Not that I don't see the point

314. Of course the responsibility with what we will be going through the next 4 years lies

329. I don't disagree - the elephant in the room is that a hostile foreign power

395. Keep fighting the good fight!

177. I've also looked at the 2012 and 2008 results in those states

187. As I said those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third

238. and I'm saying that a majority of those voters

246. I understand your point. You may not be aware, but we lost a good number of folks here who said

393. Even if you were to accept the premise that every Stein vote....

521. It not just Stein voters

525. Absolutely.

308. Just out of curiosity....

135. And Comey, and Putin ...

140. YES! Mahalo, Lil Missy

265. ....

159. Let's don't take any responsibility for any of this.

163. I posting the article in response to the first sentence of the OP.. there are other

165. I get all that.

170. You may get it.. but the OP doesn't or that wouldn't have been the 1st

190. What is it that you think I "don't get'??

375. I disagree with you on that too.

287. Exactly. You'd think that four months later,

503. +1

282. How curious that you're beating up the female candidate, when Gary Johnson (L)...

288. Very good point

303. LOL So much ire toward Stein when good ol' Gary was the bigger menace...

315. It does seem lately that there is an effort to shut down (or shout out) progressives in here.

323. The "angry, bitter minority" had vastly different positions at one time. VASTLY.

345. + 1000

480. Show me anywhere where ANY of "these same folks" have EVER shown ANY tendency to support cuts to

504. Agree completely.

347. You call exposing "beating up".. "How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin"

351. Will you do a 180 on Stein like you did with Hillary?

353. Oh good.. all you have are insults.. no defending stein on being a putin troll?

354. Exactly... "no defending stein on being a putin troll."

355. Good there is no defense of the Liar stein.. she owns a chunk of trump

356. Gary Johnson owns a bigger chunk. And how much...

382. Hey.. don't forget about fuckng james comey of the FBI.. and the Russians..

383. Is that what you call it.. "an enquiring mind"? lol

364. No, Hillary did not "spoil" the Election... and your saying that does not

492. Do you ever hear Republicans unloading on Ross Perot?

130. The "Extreme left gave us..." post..

455. Your list in your post "It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." isn't complete...

461. Me? Group 1.

462. Are you serious? Let's review:

463. I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better.

464. Bashing the crap out of them for things that happened more than a decade and a half ago...

467. You've made that pretty clear.

468. P.S. You neglected to say what group I need to add

2. If you hate the party so much, then why post at a place for Democrats?

9. Who's worse, a criminal committing a crime, or a cop that looks the other way?

10. Fight Trump for fuck's sake!

23. Exactly bravenak.

148. Newsflash: It ain't all about you... things are CRITICAL right now for all ages.