General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsImportant from TPM re the trump lies - "Step Back for the Bigger Picture". Please Read!!!
NOTE - it is about the last paragraph. That is what is driving us all crazy!
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/step-back-for-the-bigger-picture
By JOSH MARSHALL Published MARCH 18, 2017, 3:40 PM EDT
Two weeks ago today, President Trump went on Twitter and leveled a series of accusations against former President Obama, most notably that Obama had wiretapped his phones in Trump Tower. The claim has been roundly criticized ever since. Notably, it came on the heels of a new round of damaging revelations about ties between Trump's entourage and Russia. We've now had formal inquiries from the congressional intelligence committees, statements from the Department of Justice and the FBI, a follow on attempt by Trump and Spicer to redefine what the President actually said.
We know this much of the story. But this is a case where the particularity of the story, the minutiae of intelligence officials' denials, discussions of what authority a president might theoretically have to do such a thing all conspire together to confuse rather than illuminate what happened.
The real story here is that the President, by force of his office and audacity, was able to inject into the national conversation a preposterous claim which the country has spent two weeks debating. True, most people may not believe it. But virtually everyone has gone through the motions of probing the question as though they might be true. Intelligence communities have been briefed, statements have been made, a number of news conferences have been dominated by it. Perhaps most notably, members of his party have only been willing to say that there is as yet no evidence to back up the President's claims - not that they are obviously false and represent a major problem in themselves.
I would say that this ability - both the President's pathological lying and our institutions' inability to grapple with it - is the big, big story. The particulars of the accusation basically pale in comparison.
Also note how these lies have spread. The need to perpetuate the lie has made it necessary to escalate it. In an attempt to work around the uniform denials of every US government agency that does 'wire-taps', Press Secretary Sean Spicer was forced to grasp on to the rantings of a Fox News 'legal analyst' who claimed that President Obama had used British intelligence to sidestep US legal strictures. Repeating this claim with the imprimatur of the White House triggered a minor but real diplomatic incident with the United Kingdom, which may not yet be settled.
Continuing to defend the baseless claim required Trump to revisit the story in his press conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, both doubling down on the claim and also passing the buck to Fox News and creating the surreal spectacle of suggesting that he, like Merkel, was the victim of the very intelligence services and law enforcement agencies which he in fact now leads.
While most have dismissed the President's claims, it is still the case that he has been allowed to drive public debate for two weeks over an obvious lie. Members of his party will not denounce it as a lie or even obviously false. That's a big problem. Without being overly dramatic, this is a warning case of people in power deciding what's true and false which is a harbinger of free government dying.
rzemanfl
(29,565 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(149,627 posts)I am so disgusted and heartsick over what he's doing.
It is horrifying and scary.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,015 posts)Eyeball_Kid
(7,432 posts)Treat Spicer's assertion as fact. Yes. Treat it as fact-- that Obama ordered that Trumpy and his inner circle to be surveilled FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. Yes. Treat it as fact.
When you do, then the logic becomes clear. The press then needs to ask Team Trumpy this vital question: Assuming that Trumpy has incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing by Barack Obama, when is he going to order the Department of Justice to issue and INDICTMENT OF BARACK OBAMA?
WHEN will the indictment be issued?
In other words, let's stop playing with the lie issue and deal with the action that the lie (as truth) implies. Continue to ask the White House WHEN the indictments will be issued. Enough of the pussyfooting on the part of the White House. If Trumpy really believes that Obama ordered surveillance for political purposes, then Trumpy ought to get moving and apply the Scales of Justice.
If Spicer says that there can be no indictments until an investigation yields evidence that can be used in Court, the next question to ask is why Trumpy hasn't ordered AG Sessions to conduct and investigation AND issue indictments. If Trumpy is so certain about where the evidence goes, then go there, for Christ's sake!
This line of inquiry demands that Trumpy PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
This kind of questioning needs to occur with EVERY LIE coming from Trumpy.
lies
(315 posts)and he said he'll wait for the investigation to be be finished....
What REALLY should happen is that Barack Obama should sue Trump for defamation or some such thing... Let it all play out through the courts, with discovery, etc.
Trump has been told by EVERYONE that it's not true, and knowing as he does it's not true and STILL repeating it... there's a case there.
Right now Obama is staying above it, but it's looking like fiddling while Rome burns at this point.
Call him a liar, sue him, do it now.
Otherwise it's just... the media arguing.
FraDon
(518 posts)from a rag that merely reported she had worked as an 'escort'. Drumpf's lawyers are all over that lawsuit.
Arkansas Granny
(31,518 posts)Girard442
(6,075 posts)...they'd change parties to block this orange monster's destruction of this country.
There are no moderate Republicans. They're all him.
erronis
(15,291 posts)But almost all of those moderates, the ones with a conscience, the ones that that are able to reason; almost all of them are scared of losing their seat. Most of them wouldn't know how to do a real job at regular-people's pay. Of course, if they didn't toe the line of the RW lunatics, they wouldn't get a plush job as a lobbyist/speaker/fox-news pundit.
I like to think that over the past few decades that I've watched the political circus in the US that there were people of character that represented us. The process has been corrupted - on purpose.
There's a great graph that shows the interconnections between the Democrats and Republicans over the years. Up until 1981 the cross-aisle linkages were strong. Around 1985 through the present there are virtually no linkages. What happened to collegiality? I doubt it was just happenstance. Something deliberately influenced the critters to stop playing ball together. Evangelicals, blackmail, $$$s, drugs, outside influences?
NBachers
(17,119 posts)Stuart G
(38,433 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)"When President Richard Nixon addressed the country during Watergate and used the phrase I am not a crook, he coupled his image with that of a crook.
He established what he was denying by repeating his opponents message.
This illustrates a key principle of framing: avoid the language of the attacker because it evokes their frame and helps make their case."
Jonny Appleseed
(960 posts)mac56
(17,569 posts)Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Trump's not going to last four years.
Our challenge now is about how to communicate American values about fair play for all.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)"How to fact check Trump without repeating lies"
Granny M
(1,395 posts)superpatriotman
(6,249 posts)Being drowned in a bathtub per con servative 21st century values.
MarcA
(2,195 posts)destroyed from the inside by raving lunatics to "prove" government does
not work and be replaced with Koch feudalism.
SunSeeker
(51,569 posts)paleotn
(17,930 posts)...but I think think this obvious lie, due to its nature and the trouble it's caused with our closest allies has done more damage to the shit stain then our democracy. It has pushed many Rethugs almost to the breaking point. If shit stain survives until 2018, which I doubt, they know they'll have him around their necks for the mid-terms, which very well could be a 1994 style blood bath for the R's. The R's are the ones between a rock and a hard place now. The amazing thing for me is how fast they switched places with the Dems in a little over a month.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)The graveyard of world empiresSumerian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Mayan, Khmer, Ottoman and Austro-Hungarianfollowed the same trajectory of moral and physical collapse. Those who rule at the end of empire are psychopaths, imbeciles, narcissists and deviants, the equivalents of the depraved Roman emperors Caligula, Nero, Tiberius and Commodus.
Scruffy1
(3,256 posts)I watched this from the beginning. It was a masterful job of controlling the narrative. The press fell for it hook line and sinker. Everyday he had the headline and the spotlight was on him. The other candidates never made a dent in it. If you waste your time refuting his nonsense you will get nowhere. It was like he sucked all of the oxygen out of the room. The liberal media was actually the worst at it and naive, thinking that because he said stupid things it would end him. This is what marketing people are good at. Keep the name out there all the time and normalize the absurd. I can think of dozens of useless products that have been sold this way and he is certainly a useless product. The bad side of this is that the old adage that "good marketing kills a bad product fast" doesn't work with Presidents. You are stuck with it. It's not a "whataburger" or the latest drink craze or even a pet rock. The only answer too is too up the ante and outdo him. Too bad as Democrats we just assumed he would lose and didn't try for a home run. That would a massive policy change that would have everybody talking and arguing about it. Instead, believing it was in the bag we decided to play "small ball" and pitch the status quo.
Everything he does is just old school sales. An old salesman told me once that making outrageous claims is part of the job and expected and no one will call you on it if you have control. Besides which, everybody expects it from a salesman. That's what they did. They took control. Too bad we can't take him back for a refund. If he's impeached or resigns there is nothing but bad and worse for an option. Wanna buy a low mileage one owner Pence? Or how about the really cool and fast Ryan? The good side is he's completely incompetent and couldn't poor piss out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel. I'm thinking the best course is let him destroy the Republican Party. He's already done a lot of work on it.
Saboburns
(2,807 posts)But here's the thing. The kicker. The important point.
All his Bluster, all his Bullshit, all his foolishness helped him campaign. Big difference in campaigning and being Chief Executive Officer of the United States.
All his Bluster, all his Bullshit, all his foolishness NOW HURTS HIM.
And the best part, he can't change. He just digs his own grave. Deeper and deeper every day.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)will leave!
elias7
(4,007 posts)Political expediency has trumped honesty.
Now they can't even recognize the face of evil, because they just think they can gain from it.
If some brave Republicans don't start stepping back into the human race, our democracy may be doomed
True_Blue
(3,063 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)...National Security at risk as well. Foreign governments will not believe him or share intel with the USA.
His lie also hurts the full faith and credit of the United States. People invest and put their money here and in the dollar because they trust us to have a stable government. We no longer have that.
This lie is even more serious internationally than it is for us.
bucolic_frolic
(43,176 posts)I recommend a viewing of a thoroughly Texan movie - "Charlie Wilson's War"
as a reminder of how the Soviets attempted to demoralize the Afghans
It will not work this time either
RESIST
rgbecker
(4,831 posts)Trump repeats lies from Fox News about Obamacare being in a death spiral. How awful it is. How the Republicare bill is a thing of beauty that will be better for everyone and everyone will love it. How the CBO is lying or otherwise being untruthful about its forecasts concerning how many will lose coverage. The White house has been taken over by idiots led like sheep to the butcher.
It is only because the wire tap crap got blamed on the British that people are beginning to see how Trump gets his information and how he has no critical thinking abilities and thus how he simply repeats the "Fake news" as if the truth and denies the truth as Fake news.
MFM008
(19,814 posts)every single time he wants to change the subject.
Without fail.
dchill
(38,502 posts)Russia.
KT2000
(20,583 posts)It can be parsed into a number of descriptions - bully, narcissist, controller, etc. but he is like the abusive male in a relationship.
He is isolating all of us from the rest of the world, causing others to fear coming to the US, using confusion to keep us unsure, and taking aim at the least of us.
This country needs a victim abuse counselor to tell us that there is nothing to be gained by trying to "understand" him. He just needs to go - now so we can commence the business of healing the family.
Cha
(297,284 posts)this..
May this Boomerang back on blotus 10,000 Fold his string pullers said go out and lie about President Obama to get the heat off of us.. collaborating with Russia to get you in the seat of power, so we can take over the gd world.
Thank you, NRL
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,734 posts)Vinca
(50,276 posts)Seriously. The man "ain't right" and the media can't ignore it forever.
kentuck
(111,101 posts)"I would say that this ability - both the President's pathological lying and our institutions' inability to grapple with it - is the big, big story. The particulars of the accusation basically pale in comparison."
lark
(23,105 posts)So called judges
Lying media
They better watch what they say about drumpf
PUtin is great leader
America is as bad as Russia
Prior president did illegal acts (to cover up and distract from his personal illegal acts
Breaking the Emoluements Clause and lying about changing ownership of his companys
All of these memes he's pushing put us ever closer to the 4th Reich he's trying to install and to Russia taking over as the preeminent world power.