Bernie Sanders... The head of the Democratic Party who was never head of the Democratic Party

[WiffenPoof]

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)

(Reference to Firesign Theater and B. Franklin)

Bernie Sanders gave a great interview this morning pushing for Single Payer health care. I'm convinced that after failing to secure the presidency, he wants this to be his legacy.

It seems to me that he is emerging as the true leader of the Democratic Party.


(See On Edit below)

[still_one]

1. Until he registers as a Democrat that isn't going to happen

[forjusticethunders]

8. Even if he did, he will never be a leader of the Democratic Party simply because of these statements

Well, here's what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that's kind of natural. You've got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you've got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.

But that's not important.

So my suggestion is, I think one of the reasons the president has been able to move so far to the right is that there is no primary opposition to him and I think it would do this country a good deal of service if people started thinking about candidates out there to begin contrasting what is a progressive agenda as opposed to what Obama is doing.

And when I say "never" I mean never ever.

Bernie Sanders is only popular among left-leaning white people and people who want economic populism without having to reckon with identity-based oppression, and such people are not the primary element of the progressive coalition.

[Goblinmonger]

19. And young people of color

Don't forget he did very well with that category.

Contrary to the thoughts on here, the divide between Sanders and Clinton was primarily age and not race.

[JHan]

47. young folks in my age group * were also victims of propaganda

from memes to youtube videos. We were targeted since we use social media so much. Anti-Hillary memes were all over my FB and twitter and antagonized a lot of young voters against her. In that sense, disinformation was a huge success.

[JHan]

69. Nice try.

Because I never made that stupid argument.

the problem was never who anyone supported , but the successful efforts to swiftboat and demonize a candidate, which helped fracture the party.

Act like disinformation and "Swiftboating" are totally foreign concepts that don't influence elections.

[delisen]

75. The stages of grief after realization that one has been used as a tool of Putin

are sad to watch.. At first people deny they are victims. As more awareness develops, there is lashing out in anger at those who had successfully resisted being duped.

I say let it go and join the resistance. Almost everyone has, at times, been conned.

Lots of Dems had thought John Edwards was a dream candidate. ...and this time aroundlots of Dems didn't comprehend they were getting their buttons pushed by a Russian billionaire master manipulator.

[liquid diamond]

31. It's way too late for bernie to

start building relationships with prominent members of the black community. Respected members of the Democratic Party have been doing so for decades. You don't serve as a senator of a state that's over 90% white for a decade and then expect support and respect from the black community.

[Hortensis]

136. Yes. And MANY OTHER "identity" Democrats who don't share

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

the admiration.

What I'm wondering is who will replace Sanders in the next couple of years? Where will that new, exciting orator come from, who'll be backing him (he will be a him). I absolutely share Sanders' belief that the rise of an uber-wealthy class is the #1 danger facing our country and that we must destroy it before they destroy us. Who does not!?

But I believe future threats can come from the left as well as the right. Who's is going to choose and pay for the new shiny leader who promises to fix it?

[Demsrule86]

144. This is clickbait to get people to say stuff so they can report it .

[Hortensis]

148. Well, there then. I did get carried away saying

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)

the kind of things that keep me awake in the middle of the night. A strong Democratic Party is our only defense against the hyenas intent on dismantling and reconstructing our democracy to suit right-wing extremists.

[Demsrule86]

151. I am with you. Already I see they have had some success...

[JHan]

154. everything you've posted in here is spot on.

and mirrors my own concerns.

- authoritarianism from the right and the glint of authoritarianism from the left and how fracturing the party strengthens our opposition.

(also why I am wary of populism)

Sigh.

[Hortensis]

158. Yes.

[George Eliot]

168. You prefer elitism?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

44. He did register as a Democrat when he ran for President.

He went back to being an Independent after.

He represents true Democratic values better than almost anyone in office with a D after his or her name.

[George II]

66. He actually went back to being an Independent a month or more before the convention. In fact...

...it looks, from his FEC filings, that he never formally became a Democrat in Vermont.

[truebluegreen]

76. The zombie lie: "Bernie never became a Democrat in Vermont"

There is no party registration in Vermont!

[George II]

82. Not a "zombie lie". Pat Leahy is a Democrat, Sanders is an Independent.....

Type Leahy, then Sanders, in the search box:

http://www.fec.gov/finance/disclosure/candcmte_info.shtml

S4VT00017 LEAHY, PATRICK J 2018 MONTPELIER VT DEMOCRATIC PARTY S - SENATE

S4VT00033 SANDERS, BERNARD 2018 BURLINGTON VT INDEPENDENT S - SENATE

[truebluegreen]

108. Self identified. eom

[synergie]

156. You kind of defeated your point there.

[pnwmom]

83. He doesn't represent them any better than Elizabeth Warren, Patty Murray, or

a number of other actual Democrats.

He doesn't deserve the title of HEAD of a party to which he doesn't even belong -- unless you think gonads are a requirement.

[Hortensis]

137. They are. Authoritarian leaders are almost always male.

When radicals moan about how "weak" Democrats are and see Sanders as strong, they are responding to the great conviction with which he speaks. He alone can fix it. All Democrats are corrupt. Call to revolution.

As a group, the anti-Democrat left has proven their susceptibility to authoritarian leadership to every extremist billionaire in the nation, and their agents. It's very worrying. Even if Sanders could wrest away some power from the Democrats, anywhere but on stage before his admirers he's always been a nonperformer. He could never hold it against the new shinier model that came to take it and his followers away from him.

[stonecutter357]

79. +1000

[forjusticethunders]

2. A party that he refuses to join lmao

[comradebillyboy]

3. Bernie can't be a leader until he learns how to be a team player...

Bernie is a one man band

[Jonny Appleseed]

4. Nah, he's just fooling around in Trumpland. He doesn't have enough seniority to take on the WH/GOP

Whoever comes across as having taken down the Trump administration is gonna be the head of the Democratic Party by the end of this mess.

[kstewart33]

5. He is not the 'true leader' of a party that he refuses to join.

Until he joins the party, he will continue to be ignored by party members.

[Vilis Veritas]

6. If he can move the nation closer to Single Payer, then good on him.

Leader of the Democratic Party? Not so much...he is not a Democrat.

[padfun]

7. He is the true leader of the liberal wing.

But those Reagan Dems wont allow someone like Bernie to be anywhere near the top.

[forjusticethunders]

9. If your "liberalism" only caters to the interests of white workers

It's bullshit.

The most racist President in the last 100 years and he's concerned about pandering to Trump voters who literally vote to starve their children so that THOSE PEOPLE (the blacks, gays and whatnot) continue to be marginalized.

[padfun]

11. That is a right wing lie

He marched back in the 60's. You may not like liberals, but please don't push right wing talking points.

[forjusticethunders]

15. And then he participated in white flight to almost all-white Vermont.

[George II]

26. I grew up in Brooklyn about 2-3 miles from where he grew up and was born about five years....

...after him.

When we wanted to get out of our milieu we moved to Queens, but stayed in NYC. My parents were VERY "progressive" (that term wasn't used back decades ago) and politically active until the end. They stayed in NYC to help improve the plight of the poor, those facing discrimination, and the elderly. Thankfully I followed in their footsteps (until ~20 years ago when I moved to CT due to only to my job assignments)

We did NOT move to a state that probably has the least % of people in the groups he professes to want to help.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. How dare he move where he wants.

The nerve!

[George II]

30. He participated in a sit-in at the University of Chicago, where he was arrested along with dozens...

...of others, fined $25, and released. He then "attended" the March on Washington (his very own words from his facebook page*). He never actually "marched" anywhere.

* https://www.facebook.com/senatorsanders/posts/10153007635847908

[Demsrule86]

146. years and years ago...who cares? Now if he joined the party, that would show he wants unity.

[kstewart33]

24. Respectfully, no.

Members don't accept as their leader someone who refuses to join the party he wants to lead. It's a ridiculous notion: 'I want to lead your party, but I choose not to join your party.'

Simple as that.

I oppose Sanders as party leader, and I am no Reagan Democrat.

[Wounded Bear]

49. Essentially, that is what Trump did to the Repubs...

they're paying the price for that now.

[sheshe2]

25. Who are these "Reagan Democrats"

that you are referring to?

[cwydro]

54. I was wondering the same.

That seems awfully close to a TOS violation...

[sheshe2]

58. Yup.

[pnwmom]

85. Yeah, tell that to Elizabeth Warren and Patty Murray. Bernie's their "true leader." nt

[LanternWaste]

90. he things we tell ourselves...

Creative allegation which most likely really stroke your biases. The things we tell ourselves...

[Cha]

152. No, too divisive with insults.. just like you're doing now.

[MineralMan]

10. Nope. He refuses to become a Democrat.

Right now, he is pushing for impossible things. That's nice, but he has no real power in the Senate, and the Senate is controlled by Republicans.

I like Bernie very much, but nothing he has been talking about lately has a prayer of a chance. We happen to be in the middle of an enormous political scandal right now, and Bernie's out stumping for things that can't happen.

Good luck with those things, and thanks for pushing those ideas, but we're sort of distracted right now by a constitutional crisis. We'll get back to you after we've tried to fix that.

But, please continue to tilt at those windmills. We need someone in this country to do that, and you're apparently that someone.

[Goblinmonger]

21. I keep hearing "constitutional crisis" on here lately? What constitutional crisis?

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

And in case you haven't looked at the news, Sanders trying to push for single payer is pretty important given what the Repubs are looking to do to the AHCA. Perhaps him doing this now is going to put some pressure on the moderate Repubs from their constituents to not vote for this abomination that they are considering RIGHT NOW. But, hey, that's just tilting at windmills I guess.

[kstewart33]

27. Mineral Man is correct.

Very few people are listening to Bernie now.

Because we have a wee bit of a problem. Our democracy is at stake.

[NurseJackie]

12. Nope. He's not "emerging" as anything of the sort. That's just wishful thinking.

He may be a true advocate of progressive or socialist causes, but he'll never be the "true leader of the Democratic Party" (as you phrase it.)

[forjusticethunders]

16. He's not even that.

He's pandering to the same Reagan Democrats that left the party because it was getting too black for them (this is why he has such strong crossover appeal in Vermont; it's really fucking white, also that's why the Dem leadership doesn't touch him and would never support someone like Al Giordano; if they try, they likely fail anyway and Vermont becomes a swing state) . If you actually consider his myopia on race and gender as part of the equation (like, what leftist is going to say race and gender doesn't matter!?), he's honestly considerably to the RIGHT of the average Democrat.

The fact that he's a "socialist" who's spent a good amount of time studying socialist history makes his ideological errors even more egregious. The interplay between race and class is literally Marxism 101 and he flunks.

[NurseJackie]

17. You make valid points.

[JHan]

34. thank you.

I lost count of the side eyes I gave his WWC narratives immediately after the election.

[Starry Messenger]

141. Yup. +1

[workinclasszero]

13. Uh...he would have to join the party first

Just sayin.

[George II]

14. As long as he continues to go around talking about what's wrong with Democrats, the Democrats....

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 12:43 PM - Edit history (1)

....will continue to have trouble getting into a position to pass any sort of health care bill.

And no, he's not emerging as a true leader of the Democratic Party, we already have that in Tom Perez, Keith Ellison, Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer, and even Al Franken.

(edited to correct the omission of Adam Schiff)

[NurseJackie]

20. Oh my god, yes!! Al Franken TOTALLY ROCKS!! He has a very statesmanlike demeanor, and...

... he's sharp as a tack! He's respectful, he's folksy and homespun, and has a delightfully disarming charm that puts people at ease.

He can find common ground and move forward without being "preachy" or "bossy" and without sounding rude and without being loud and abrupt.

He shows respect by never talking down to people. He's smart, but he never comes across as sounding like an abrasive "know-it-all".

[randome]

22. You mean...a Democratic Party MEMBER who leads the Democrats? That just doesn't sound right.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[JHan]

39. busterisms will kill us.

[Wounded Bear]

50. You left Adam Schiff off of your list...

[George II]

52. Damn, how could I have forgotten him? Thanks for the reminder.

[Wounded Bear]

55. He's been making a name this year, to be sure...

I'm thinking next Speaker of the House after we flip it in Nov '18.

[LexVegas]

18. "he is emerging as the true leader of the Democratic Party."

[sheshe2]

23. Nope.

[oasis]

59. Hell nope.!!!!

[Eliot Rosewater]

28. Personalities are causing us to lose site of what is important.

[LisaM]

29. A party he (IMO) did his best to divide.

Well, he did succeed at that. I don't think he wants to part of a group with a wide range of ideas. I really think that's too bad.

[Kahuna7]

41. Yep. nt

[NCTraveler]

32. "he is emerging as the true leader of the Democratic Party."

[alarimer]

33. The Democratic Party needs to lose its corporate ties.

The "we're better than they are" approach clearly didn't work. Actual progressive principles are winners, not watered-down corporate giveaways.

[JHan]

35. tell me again which party wants to reverse citizen's united.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028831995

[NurseJackie]

40. Thank you. I get so weary of the lies and smears against the Democratic Party.

[JHan]

43. It's why I shared that video yesterday, Obama laid out the challenges ..

and he contextualized the dangers of FEC McCutcheon. He even admitted dems have not been perfect but the environment has imperiled politics so much, even he had to raise insane amounts in 2012. Hillary made similar observations in audio that was leaked to the press last year I think.

Also for all the talk about "big money" - which party is the party of dark money? (Answer- the GOP) And yet the smears persist.

[NurseJackie]

48. Oh, I missed that. Can you post the link again, please? (Thanks.)

[JHan]

56. sure :) this is the direct youtube link -

[NurseJackie]

61. YouTube: "Obama on Citizens United Ruling" (Thanks for the link, JHan!)

I'm glad to have this link. It's important to challenge and debunk the lies and smears that are being made against Democrats and the Democratic Party.

[George II]

77. I think people need to define what they mean by "corporate ties", and what determines...

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)

...their existence.

Specifically, some candidates (who served in office in New York and live in New York) have been criticized for taking money from "Wall Street", including banks, brokerages, etc. That criticism was/is based on the fact that many individuals who contributed to their campaigns worked for banks, brokerages, etc. These individuals could range from bank presidents to the custodial people working at the banks, etc.

Unfortunately people throw around catch phrases and terms without looking into the specific details of what those terms really entail.

I can remember back in the beginning of last year when people were bemoaning "banksters" contributing to a campaign. I pointed out at that time that in a family of eight living in New York City, five of us at one time or other in our careers we worked for banks even though only my father rose to any managerial position, and that was in their Data Processing (back then, not IT) department, totally divorced from "banking". I also worked in the IT department, one brother worked as a clerk in a bank's back office, and two others were tellers. Certainly not "banksters", yet the person with whom I was debating insisted on derogatorily referring to all five of us as "banksters".

So, what specifically do you mean by "corporate ties", and what constitutes that?

[brooklynite]

36. If he wants Single Payer to be his legacy he's going to need to make a real effort

With the current political landscape, introducing symbolic legislation and making speeches to supportive crowds won't change anything. He needs to convince Red State voters or convince them to vote for Democrats.

[Blue_true]

121. Other that introducing DOA proposals, Bernie

in not doing any of the last items that you listed. I want to see new people coming into the Democratic Party to shake it up, but those people must become party members and support other Democrats, absolutely.

[Talk Is Cheap]

37. Sanders is a statesman, just like the original founders of our country...

Single Payer is just one of many issues Sanders is working on.

If I may, Sanders legacy is decades of statesmanship and fighting for all Americans.

[George II]

46. He couldn't get single payer enacted when our Democrats had the majority in both houses, how...

...is he going to accomplish that now?

We'll be lucky if the ACA isn't shredded in the coming months.

Why isn't he using his "bully pulpit" up in Vermont, where until this year there was a Democratic majority in their house, senate, and governor's seat? They don't have single payer up there.

[Talk Is Cheap]

63. It takes more than just one Senator...

I am more into solutions and people fighting for solutions for all Americans...

[Blue_true]

123. Bernie didn't even join the effort to get Single Payer done in Vermont.

Shumlin tried, but the legislation failed because Vermont didn't have several billion to launch it. Bernie could have helped try to secure the startup money, but he said publicly that Vermont state leaders needed to carry that load alone.

[pnwmom]

86. And he's a politician. That's why he's a gun rights person -- to get elected in Vermont. n/t

[Talk Is Cheap]

92. Check is voting record... looks like you believe the Russian propaganda on this...

[pnwmom]

94. I know his voting record, including his voting record on gun control. n/t

[Stand and Fight]

38. No. He's not even a Democrat. What an absurd thing to say.

[liquid diamond]

42. Another one of these threads?

How many of them does it take for you guys to realize sanders isn't liked by many here?

[Maven]

45. Leader of the Dem party? He can start by joining the party and ceasing his attacks on it

Also, by addressing the collusion with Russia (i.e., treason) that brought us Donald Trump, a subject on which he has been strangely silent.

[democrank]

51. Bernie Sanders is an independent thinker and leader

who has the support of many with progressive values, those who favor bottom-up vs. top-down principles and practices. I particularly like Bernie's straightforward approach, which is similar to that of Angus King, another northern New England Independent. I was pleased to see, even after expressing progressive views, Bernie got a standing ovation in West Virginia a few days ago.

One reason I respect Bernie is his decades-long, unwavering support of our veterans and their families.

[delisen]

81. Unfortunately he was slow to recognize Putin's interference.

His analysis of the election results was flawed.

[WiffenPoof]

53. This Is So Frustrating...

I hate this argument that Bernie Sanders is NOT a Democrat. If you are hung up on labels, then you are absolutely correct....He is NOT a Democrat. I tend to look at the person and their political philosophy. I know....I know...he is not a Democrat.

Minus the labels...

Would you consider FDR a Democrat?

(Yes...go ahead and say "of course, he joined the Party).

I am an older Democrat. The very hight of Democratic ideals is represented in someone like FDR. There was a time when today's Progressive was simply known as a Democrat.

For me....and maybe me only, Bernie Sanders is the closest we have gotten to someone like FDR. (Read the Second Bill of Rights) I don't care what he calls himself, his philosophy and policies reflect the original tenets of the Democratic Party...Remember: the "Party of the People"

Normally...a defeated politician will take cover for a certain period of time. Bernie has not stopped fighting for what he believes is right for the people. He didn't pause...he didn't rest, he didn't quit.

When I say that he is emerging as the leader of the Democratic Party, I refer to his fight, which is a fight for the original tenets of our Party. He has been in front of the camera at least as much as he was while he ran for office. He will not stop and I believe his fight for Universal Health Care is the legacy he is fighting for.

-P

[pnwmom]

64. It is so frustrating to me that you are deliberately overlooking strong FEMALE leaders

who are actually DEMOCRATS -- women in the leadership like Elizabeth Warren and Patty Murray.

[WiffenPoof]

67. OMG - How can you say that?!

I've made no mention of female leaders.

For the record...They are fantastic and I support any woman that can jump over the extra hurdles to achieve the leadership of our Party. I am a HUGE supporter of Elizabeth Warren and feel she is the best compliment to Bernie Sanders (and visa versa).

So, don't accuse me of not supporting women leaders. It is an absurd accusation.

[JTFrog]

72. Well when you go straight to Bernie is the leader of the Democratic Party and then backtrack

and say that Elizabeth Warren is the best compliment to Bernie "and visa versa"....

Yeah, we can say that you might have overlooked female leaders. If they are the same, and she is an actual member of the party, why aren't you calling her the leader of the party?

I doubt you will get it, but I'm glad others are pointing out the absurdity of your OP.

[WiffenPoof]

95. Wow...I'm definitely on the wrong site.

I can't explain it cuz I'm not as smart as you. I'm playing checkers...you're on three-dimensional chess.

I too dumb.

[NCTraveler]

74. "I've made no mention of female leaders."

Exactly. But you did make reference to a wealthy white male who isn't a part of the party as it's leader. We flat out know that Elizabeth Warren carries more clout in the party and is doing more to lead the party than Sanders.

[pnwmom]

80. EXACTLY. You called Bernie the HEAD of the Democratic party while overlooking Elizabeth Warren,

Patty Murray, and other strong women in the party.

As you say, you made no mention of female leaders.

Why is a non-Democrat the HEAD of a party that includes leaders like Elizabeth Warren and Patty Murray?

[WiffenPoof]

88. Stop It!

I repeat...I am a HUGE supporter of Elizabeth Warren. I don't know what else I can say. Geeze. I think she would be a wonderful leader of our Party. Period!

ON EDIT: It almost sounds as if you want me to require that Elizabeth Warren be the leader of our Party. Or any other woman. Anything less than supporting a woman as our Party Leader does not meet your requirement. Tell me that's not true.

[pnwmom]

93. Why should I? You still have an OP up insisting that Bernie is the HEAD of the party.

There is NO basis for your statement that Bernie is any more the head of the party than numerous women who are actual Democrats.

[WiffenPoof]

96. I give up....nt

[Quixote1818]

99. The OP is just suggesting Sanders is providing leadership that brings forth very liberal policies

that are good for people. Things people who say they are Democrats are supposed to support. It's the OP showing appreciation for someone he /she admires because he is fighting for the issues she / he cares about. Why make anything more than that with all these attacks? Why do you hate Sanders so much? Any pro-Sanders OP you are immediately like a Pitt-Bull on the thread. You don't think Sanders has any redeeming qualities?

[WiffenPoof]

102. Wow

Thank you so much. That's exactly what I was trying to get across. I do appreciate your post.

[pnwmom]

103. The OP calls Bernie "the head of the Democratic party." That is a much larger claim

than what you're making.

And I haven't said a word that would indicate I "hate Sanders."

[Quixote1818]

115. It was a tong and cheek statement the OP made

He / she likes Sanders and is excited about him. That's all the OP was saying. He / she appreciates Sanders working hard on issues he /she cares deeply about.

[randome]

117. Then all that needs to be done is to remove the "He's our leader" bit. No problems then.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tarheel_Dem]

135. So now you're the o.p.'s translator? We can read, in black & white, what the o.p. said. nt

[George II]

106. "Why do you hate Sanders so much?"

That is so reminiscent of the bush era claim every time someone came out against the invasion of Iraq:

"Why do you hate America so much?"

[Quixote1818]

114. There are a handful of posters who immediately go ballistic on any positive post about Sanders

Something about Sanders really bothers them. Had I only seen a couple of posts with them and their rage I wouldn't make such a claim but when someone goes on absolutely every pro-Sanders thread and tries to trash it their motive becomes pretty obvious. I only post hear and there and I recognize them instantly because they are so active against Sanders.

[randome]

119. It isn't 'positive' to claim he is our leader. That's what causes the divisiveness.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

120. Please show me those posts where I went "ballistic" or expressed "rage" about Sanders.

I think you are overly sensitive regarding legitimate criticism.

[randome]

100. Look, if those women know what's good for them, they'll stand aside for the curmudgeonly outsider!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[NurseJackie]

70. I reject that explanation. When you proclaim such an elevated status for him...

... you're implying that he's rising to fill a void, and that the Democratic Party lacks leadership. Such claims and abject adoration and flattery of him help to reinforce and perpetuate the myth that Democratic Party leaders are "corrupt" or "incompetent" ... but these things are simply not true.

There was a time when today's Progressive was simply known as a Democrat.

Do you realize how offensive a statement like this is? This is a not-so-subtle swipe that suggests "today's Progressive" is better than ordinary Democrats who somehow don't "reflect the original tenets of the Democratic Party". --- No, those weren't your exact words, I know that. But I'm also smart enough to read between the lines and to understand an underlying meaning. It's definitely not alert-worthy, but it's offensive nevertheless.

It seems to me that he is emerging as the true leader of the Democratic Party.

It's pretty clear what that sentence means. That's a very direct and affirmative statement. It doesn't say he's a "leader of progressive causes" or that he's a "strong fighter for the original tenets of the party" nor does it merely say "he's a fighter".

It said "true leader". Suggesting that the Democratic Party's actual leaders are, what? Fake leaders? Imposters? (The whole thing is offensive as hell for anyone to disregard and smear the abilities and integrity and talent of our current party leadership. Why do this? What purpose does it serve?)

The follow-up post expressing surprise and disappointment and frustration at the push-back you're getting isn't helping. Attempting to provide and alternative meaning to the very unambiguous statement in the OP?? Seriously? Give me a break!

[WiffenPoof]

87. Sorry If I offended You

First, as a side note...
Apparently I am not the only one that believes that Bernie Sanders represents the Party of the People. He had a turnout of supporters during his presidential run that was nothing less than amazing. Apparently there are many people who believe that Mr. Sanders is the direction they want to take this country and this Party.

... you're implying that he's rising to fill a void, and that the Democratic Party lacks leadership. Such claims and abject adoration and flattery of him help to reinforce and perpetuate the myth that Democratic Party leaders are "corrupt" or "incompetent" ... but these things are simply not true.

I think you are reading way too much into what I had to say. I tried to explain that "it is my opinion" that Bernie Sanders represents the original tenets of our Party. Okay, so our Party is no longer Progressive. Things change, I understand that. I haven't changed...call me slow or behind the times. That's okay with me. All political parties are corrupt. Some far more corrupt than others. Having said that, I did not say, nor did I imply that the Democratic Party is highly corrupt or in some way is a horrible Party. I am a member of that Party and I'm proud of it.

There was a time when today's Progressive was simply known as a Democrat.
Do you realize how offensive a statement like this is? This is a not-so-subtle swipe that suggests "today's Progressive" is better than ordinary Democrats who somehow don't "reflect the original tenets of the Democratic Party". --- No, those weren't your exact words, I know that. But I'm also smart enough to read between the lines and to understand an underlying meaning. It's definitely not alert-worthy, but it's offensive nevertheless.

Wow...unbelievable. Perhaps you ARE smarter than I am to be able to read my mind. Are you denying that our Party was much more progressive prior to Reagan? Really? Our Party has changed. I simply liked it better when we held more Progressive views. No slam against current Dems...They (we) can't help that times change and political philosophies evolve. No slam against current Democrats!

Alert worthy???? Even if you state that it is definitely not alert worthy, that sounds like it falls just short of being so offensive that it might (if put in different terms) BE ALERT WORTHY. Are you kidding? You mean DU has reached a point where a person can't express their views if they are even slightly off center of the prevailing point of view. Wow...just wow!

It seems to me that he is emerging as the true leader of the Democratic Party.
It's pretty clear what that sentence means. That's a very direct and affirmative statement. It doesn't say he's a "leader of progressive causes" or that he's a "strong fighter for the original tenets of the party" nor does it merely say "he's a fighter".

I thought I was saying (by implication) that he was (is) the leader of the progressive movement. No slam to the Dem leadership. I think they are doing the best they can under the current circumstances. If I offended you...well, you know the rest.

It said "true leader". Suggesting that the Democratic Party's actual leaders are, what? Fake leaders? Imposters? (The whole thing is offensive as hell for anyone to disregard and smear the abilities and integrity and talent of our current party leadership. Why do this? What purpose does it serve?)

(See above)

The follow-up post expressing surprise and disappointment and frustration at the push-back you're getting isn't helping. Attempting to provide and alternative meaning to the very unambiguous statement in the OP?? Seriously? Give me a break!

So, what I hear you saying is that my frustration at any push-back is against Party policy (at least here at DU). More unwelcoming statements from a "true Democrat." You may not like it, but our Party has a branch of those that lean to the left of the status quo. It doesn't make us evil or offensive (and it doesn't make you evil or offensive) I guess I would ask you why you want me to think just like you? I'm sure you don't.

If there is no room for dissenting views that express a desire for the Party to be more Progressive, than I'm definitely in the wrong place.

[NurseJackie]

101. No, you don't offend me. I don't know you. Your words are offensive. Get it?

If there is no room for dissenting views that express a desire for the Party to be more Progressive, than I'm definitely in the wrong place.

I suppose it all depends on how you want to accomplish your goals. Some people have difficulty with compromise and finding common ground and incremental progress and (in the name of perfection and having it all right now) are willing to remain at a standstill, or even to go backward, if they can't have what they want.

It's your choice. Do as you please. I'm not buying the "we're just misunderstood victims" nonsense.

RE: Reading minds. I cannot read minds... so you're half-right.

Fact of the matter is this: times change. Deal with it. These are the Regan Years, the Carter Years, the JFK Years or the FDR Years. If you want to strive for things of the past, that's up to you. But I prefer to move forward. Attacking and smearing our party and its leadership isn't the way to strengthen the party and move forward.

I think you are reading way too much into what I had to say.

Don't even try it. It's probably best to take a close look at what you wrote than my "interpretation" of it. Your words don't exist in a void or without context.

Having said that, I did not say, nor did I imply that the Democratic Party is highly corrupt or in some way is a horrible Party.

Not in this message. Others have however. It's a common message among the "progressives" who are emotional and disenchanted with Democrats, but who love Bernie. So, what you're doing is following along with, and supporting, and reinforcing the narrative that such things are true. Again, your message does not exist in a void without context. My recommendation is to choose your words more carefully, or to proof-read.

[WiffenPoof]

105. Thank you Professor. Nt

[Quixote1818]

91. Your right and they know you are right.

Don't worry about the attacks, they come from about 10 of the same folks who hate Sanders. I see the same ones attack every positive post about him.

[WiffenPoof]

97. Gawd....I feel like I called up the devil

I do not want to offend members of my own Party. But apparently you must tow the line or you are shit.

I just never thought I would be treated this way for supporting Bernie Sanders.

I don't get it.

[NurseJackie]

109. Oh nice! So, people who disagree with you are the "Devil"? Charming.

But apparently you must tow the line or you are shit.

That's an oversimplification and mischaracterization. There are many of us out here who are aware of something called nuance.

I just never thought I would be treated this way for supporting Bernie Sanders.

Treated what way? Are you being abused, insulted, called names? (I haven't seen that. But if so, then those posters should be ashamed of themselves.) Or are you just surprised at the amount of push-back and disagreement there is toward your message.

There's much more to it that the innocent and simplified characterization of "supporting Sanders". Sure you've generously flattered Sanders, but at whose expense? You are being dismissive of the actual party leaders and declaring as our "true leader" someone who has called the Democratic Party "intellectually bankrupt". Yep, that's definitely offensive.

I don't get it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you actually do. Feigning surprise or confusion over the reaction you're getting isn't believable.

[SalviaBlue]

57. So many people here are still under the spell of Russian Bots regarding Bernie.

Bernie is a true leader for liberals. I am very happy he is on our side.

[WiffenPoof]

60. Exactly! eom

[JTFrog]

73. Um, it was Bernie fans that pushed RT and propaganda here, not the other way around. nt

[Justice]

62. It's lovely that Bernie is pushing for single payer today. Let's have a tea party + watch Rome burn.

My point is just Bernie has to fight the battle in front of us, which is to defeat the repeal of the ACA.

We are not going to get single payer until we have a Democratic President in the WH and a majority in the House and Senate.

We may never have that chance again.

[RadiationTherapy]

65. The divergence between the abstract and the practical is so distinct here!

In this case the abstract is a self-identified label and the practical is the actual application of principles espoused by the abstract label. This is really interesting to amateur academics of the Korzybski school like myself. For some, the label - even without the practice - is more important than practices espoused by that label when there is no abstract label affixed to the practices.

[WiffenPoof]

98. Well Stated nt

[nini]

71. I'd say Franken, Warren and Gillibrand are leading the pack

Doing the actual work and not just interviewing.

[stonecutter357]

78. Democratic party Members only from now on.......thanks.

[Paladin]

84. If Bernie really wants to head up the party, he can damn well join it. (nt)

[randome]

89. Why is it that every few days, someone seeks to push buttons regarding outsiders?

Judging from the responses to this thread, there are more people who disagree with this characterization of Sanders than agree with it. That being the case, why can't you simply point out what Sanders said or did without bringing in the divisive subject of his being our leader?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[SharonClark]

111. I hope the OP writer reads your comment...

"why can't you simply point out what Sanders said or did without bringing in the divisive subject of his being our leader? "

Why is it that some Sanders supporters want to anoint him the leader of a party he doesn't belong to?

[Blue_true]

125. Why is it?

Because you have a group of people that insist on leading after the barricades are breeched, but don't want to do any of the bleeding required to knock down the barricades. I listen to Democrats that have fought their way through the wilderness, not a guy who wants to anoint himself General.

[Adrahil]

104. No offense, but if Bernie wants influence, he has to fucking COMMIT.

He wants to have his cake and eat it too.

He wants to tell us what to do, but take no actual responsibility to make anything happen.

Until he's ready to get in there and COMMIT to being a Democrat, he can fuck right off, as far as I'm concerned.

[Kimchijeon]

107. He's the most apparent leader that I can see. "Official" or not.

Love him.

[NurseJackie]

110. And our actual party leaders are what? Chopped liver?

[SharonClark]

113. Bless your little heart.

[George II]

112. Why Sanders will never be the leader of the Democratic Party, in his own words:

“You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party.”

“"The Democratic Party ideologically bankrupt, they have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”

“They have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”

“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’”

“I am not a Democrat, period.”

And there are many more.






http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181

[NurseJackie]

116. Wow! I hadn't heard the "opportunism" quote before. That's disappointing. But...

... now that know, it reinforces what I've thought all along. (And I'll just leave it at that without going into details.)

[Kentonio]

128. Oh gosh, because you were such a big fan of his previously..

[NurseJackie]

130. What does that even mean? Can you elaborate?

[Tarheel_Dem]

138. Makes you wonder why "some" here continue to try & make us follow someone who obviously....

despises us. Those are not the words of any "Leader of the Democratic Party". Not by a long shot.

[Blue_Tires]

118. We needed his push 7 years ago back when there was still a snowball's chance

[aikoaiko]

122. This is not the way to garner support for Bernie around here

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2017, 03:56 PM - Edit history (1)

There are too many who are bitter and angry at Bernie for not kowtowing to HRC.

Some even blame him for HRC's loss.

Some are angry because he emphasizes policies that cut across all US residents and is not deferential enough to minority identity politics.

I understand their anger, although I don't agree, and your OP is a dog whistle for Bernie hate.

If you truly support Bernie, find a different way to support him on DU.

[NurseJackie]

124. And this laundry list helps... how?

[aikoaiko]

127. Its not supposed to help you. Its directed at the OP to help him or her understand reactions

[NurseJackie]

132. A laundry list of fault-finding finger-pointing name-calling post only stirs MORE shit. Why?

127. Its not supposed to help you.

I never said it was.

Its directed at the OP to help him or her understand reactions

By provoking more of the same type of reaction? What good does that do?

If it was your sincere intention to advise the OP on how to better support his favorite politician in a "different" way (presumably one that's less disruptive and antagonistic), then you're really not setting a good example on how to be diplomatic. It's like sending a bull into a china shop to offer advice on how to delicately arrange china and the importance of having sturdy shelves and wide aisles. The bull may have some good advice, but he's not setting a good example in the process.

[aikoaiko]

134. What in my post do you consider fault-finding, finger-pointing, or name-calling?

Except where I think others have found fault in Bernie.

[NurseJackie]

139. "If you have to ask" then my adding anything extra isn't likely to help clarify. It appears...

... that we've reached the end for now. See ya 'round.

[JCanete]

131. agreed. May not have been intended, but is certainly keeping the hurt feelings alive, something

people who dislike him and like him continue to feed, often unsolicited.

[Tarheel_Dem]

126. Apparently, the forces who tried to divide us in the primaries are still hard at work. Why you...

felt the need to declare Sanders a de-facto "leader of the Democratic Party" suggests that you intended to start yet another flame war. I won't bite, but for the record, the party that I love doesn't need an outsider to "lead it".

[NurseJackie]

129. I believe your intuition is correct.

[Bayard]

133. Bernie Still Rocks!

I don't care what his designation is. He's not your typical politician.

[NastyRiffraff]

149. "He's not your typical politician"

I'll give you THAT. But I don't mean what you mean.

[Bayard]

167. He just kicked ass on Rachel Maddow

And he's right--the Democrats need to be screaming bloody murder about this travesty of a health bill. The people are behind them. Make as much noise as the pathetic excuse for human beings on the other side.

Bernie is still out there pounding the pavement for us. I am astounded that all of DU is not behind him.

[Portland_Anni]

140. I changed my party registration this week.

I decided that this is going to be all out political war I would rejoin Democratic Party ranks. I am no longer a Pacific Green.

[Cha]

147. Welcome, Portland_Anni

[NastyRiffraff]

142. Typo?

I think you meant either Adam Schiff or Al Franken as the head of the Democratic Party.

There, fixed it for you.

Being a Democrat is a minimum requirement to lead the party, and there are Plenty of Democrats who are qualified.

[Demsrule86]

143. He can not be a leader in the Democratic Party as he is not

a Democrat...this is clickbait and you know it. You should delete it. As for single payer ...all well an good, but at the moment we are fighting for the ACA and without this there will be no public option or single payer in the forseable future...did he call for his followers to call Congress ...we are at a critical time.

[Cha]

145. Hell NO. NOthing "true"about it.. and give me a break.

[SecularMotion]

150. Russian propaganda helped Bernie in the primaries but he still lost.

[philly_bob]

161. Is this accurate? Assuming "russian propaganda" means thousands of social media sock puppets...

and link-posting bots acting under central control, do we know whether they were pro-Bernie or pro-Hillary in the primaries?

We know they were pro-Trump in the General Election.

But I would appreciate hearing opinions on the question I raise above. Were the election meme-machines pro Bernie or pro Hillary in the primaries?

(Incidentally, my sympathy in this thread is with OP wiffenpoof, who was greeted with derision and insult merely because he expressed an opinion on who should be the leader of the progressive stream in American politics. That said, I don't want to participate further in that divisive battle.)

[SecularMotion]

163. This was recent news

WASHINGTON ― Last June, John Mattes started noticing something coursing like a virus through the Facebook page he helped administer for Bernie Sanders fans in San Diego. People with no apparent ties to California were friending the page and sharing links from unfamiliar sites full of anti-Hillary Clinton propaganda.

The stories they posted weren’t the normal complaints he was used to seeing as the Vermont senator and the former secretary of state fought out the Democratic presidential primary. These stories alleged that Clinton had murdered her political opponents and used body doubles.

Mattes, 66, had been a television reporter and Senate investigator in previous lives. He put his expertise in unmasking fraudsters to work. At first, he suspected that the sites were created by the old Clinton haters from the ‘90s ― what Hillary Clinton had dubbed “the vast right-wing conspiracy.

Mattes and his friends didn’t know what to make of his findings. He couldn’t get his mind around the possibility that trolls overseas might be trying to sway a bunch of Southern Californians who supported Sanders’ run for president. “I may be a dark cynic and I may have been an investigative reporter for a long time, but this was too dark ― and too unbelievable and most upsetting,” he said. “What was I to do with this?”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fake-news-russia_us_58c34d97e4b0ed71826cdb36

[Warren DeMontague]

155. All due respect to Bernie, we need new leadership. Younger leadership. West coast leadership.

Newsom and Harris represent the future.

[Nonhlanhla]

157. No, just no. He is too divisive.

I know Bernie fans don't want to hear this, but Bernie is a very divisive figure in the Democratic Party. He also does not have a strong appeal to many ethnic-minority Democrats, who are the backbone of the party.

[liquid diamond]

160. This very thread is proof of his divisive nature.

He will not be someone to rally around in future elections.

[samnsara]

159. is he a dem yet?

[nikibatts]

162. Ugh! Bernie, please go away!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

164. He hasn't been acting like a leader. Plus he's not a Democrat. He likes to be an agitator and is

good at it. Plus, he did not keep his promises that he made to the Dem Party. I liked him much, much better as a rabble-rouser rather than a candidate. It ruined his appeal to me and many others, I think. He just became like every other politician and I thought better of him.

[furtheradu]

165. Love & Respect

Always have, always will.

[SticksnStones]

166. Registered Independant Bernie Sanders just called the Democratic Party feeble

He'd have that comment removed if it was posted here.

It doesn't help for him to continue to fight the primary.

A comment like that keeps the wounds open.