Trump could just pardon Flynn and anyone else who committed a crime.

[sharedvalues]

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/mike-flynns-lawyer-predicted-in-2016-trump-would-make-novel-and-unusual-use-of-presidential-pardons/

Mike Flynn's lawyer, back in December

Link to tweet

If this whole treasonous criminal fiasco ends up with Flynn, Bannon, Manafort, Pence and the rest of the lot pardoned, I am going to be very very unhappy.

[AJT]

1. He would only pardon them if they lie and keep him

out of it.

[KittyWampus]

2. Flynn hasn't been charged with a crime.

[unblock]

7. not necessary for a pardon.

ford pardoned nixon who was never charged with anything.

carter pardoned undocumented immigrants, many of whom had never been charged with anything.


as a matter of customary process, pardons usually aren't granted until all other legal options have been exhausted, so usually the pardonee has already been convicted and lost appeals. but the pardon power isn't limited to that. presidents (and governors) just have this process to manage the flow, keeping pardon work to a minimum, as well as to generally defer to the judicial branch where possible.

[unblock]

3. i continue to think actual impeachment very much against the odds, but...

if donnie started abusing the pardon power, i could see such a hue and cry that even a republican congress might have to say enough is enough.


one of the main reasons i think actual impeachment is unlikely is that republicans would certainly never attempt it if they weren't sure it would work. even knowing in advance that they had the votes to remove donnie might not be enough to get them to impeach, but certainly they'd never impeach and fail. that would just be a self-inflicted wound. but as soon as they have enough votes to impeach and remove, they'd be able to convince donnie to resign, so still the impeachment would not happen.

but if donnie abuses the pardon power, that might convince congress that (a) they have the votes and have to impeach and remove and (b) they won't agree to resign instead.

[jberryhill]

6. agree

Yep.

It's an inverse-Nixon in a way, since he took the "fire everyone" approach to stem the investigation.

What's kind of interesting in this one is "fire the attorney general" won't work since Sessions is recused from pretty much anything other than going after mattress-tag-removers.

[unblock]

8. can donnie fire the deputy attorney general or whoever?

or would he have to order sessions to do that firing and fire him if he didn't, a la nixon/cox?

[jberryhill]

10. I doubt he knows

[unblock]

13. lol! donnie's incompetence had us worried at first, but it may be what saves us all

[jberryhill]

14. I gotta say, he makes W look like a philospher king

[sharedvalues]

25. He could fire Comey

Comey political appointee who serves at the pleasure of the president.

[unblock]

33. i'm not sure comey as fbi director is really necessary at this point.

in fact, if donnie fires comey, then he's got both comey and comey's replacement to worry about.

what we really need is a special prosecutor. the fbi isn't the only group that can investigate these things.

[sharedvalues]

34. Problem is Comey once fired has no more subpoena power

So the investigation could grind to a halt.

Comey can't unsee anything uncovered so far, of course.

[unblock]

38. comey can testify as long as someone's prosecuting.

if donnie and the republicans quash the congressional investigations and the doj refuses to pursue it, and they resist calls for a special prosecutor, then that would complete the cover-up.

don't think that can happen, at least not that simply.

[Jonny Appleseed]

19. Donny could pardon the prison population to 0 and the vote would still be dead on party lines

[Alice11111]

30. Agree. I don't think these unethical RWs will impeach,

as long as they are benefiting. I had a little increase of hope after his attack on the Freedom Caucus
...the math changed slightly to our favor.

For one thing, too many of them would be exposed for some of their own misdeeds in an impeachment hearing.

[jberryhill]

4. That could get into some interesting dynamics

If it becomes clear that he is using the pardon power as a mechanism of self-dealing, then we could get into abuse of power territory and it's 1974.

Nixon dealt with stopping the investigation by firing people. Then, his use of that discretion was one of the abuses of power charges in the bill of impeachment.

If he pardons them for lying to save his ass, then it is hard to avoid the conclusion that they were indeed lying to save his ass.

It would be interesting if Christie could swing one for Kelly and Baroni. Although for an 18 month sentence at Club Fed, it might not be worth it to anyone.

[stevenleser]

44. If Trump pardon's Flynn now for any offenses re: Russiagate, can Flynn then use the 5th amendment

if asked about Russiagate before congress? Seems like he can't right? There is no self-incrimination if you can't be prosecuted for something.

[beachbum bob]

5. would make 2018 and 2020 cakewalk elections for democrats and conservatives know that

[winstars]

18. Yeah, but thats only if we still have elections in 2018 and 2020! These fucks aren't gonna....

let up. Look where we are right now...

Project this amount of BS for another year, I actually cannot...

UNCHARTED

[PatrickforO]

9. Indeed. They could play 'musical pardons.'

But who won't make it to a chair?

[Binkie The Clown]

11. Trump can't pardon himself, so that leaves only him to take the fall. n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

45. Actually, I believe he could.

Believe it or not.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

12. If he does that, he'll be out on his ass rather quickly.

The comparisons to Watergate are somewhat apt, but this is Watergate on steroids. That took more than two years to unravel: the break-in of the Democratic National Headquarters happened June 17, 1972, and Nixon didn't resign from office until August 9, 1974. It was a slow and somewhat steady drip, drip, drip of revelations. Although for about the first year the Washington Post stood alone on this, and many reasonable people wondered why no other paper was covering the story.

In the end, Watergate wasn't about the break-in, but the cover-up.

What's happening now is the appearance of corruption and perhaps outright treason. Donald Trump and all those around him haven't a clue that being President is extremely different from running a company, Especially if you take into account how badly he's run most of his companies. His appointing of his sons to run his businesses (and considering that to be sufficient divesting), and his daughter and son-in-law as trusted advisors, has all the stench of a third world dictatorship. Then of course there's the Russia connection, which is another thing entirely.

When Flynn resigned it felt to me almost exactly like the day (April 30, 1973) Nixon fired John Dean and John Ehrlichman, and Bob Haldeman resigned. As I recall, Nixon went on national television that night to call Ehrlichman and Haldeman "Two of the finest civil servants it has been my privilege to know." I knew then that Nixon would eventually resign or be impeached.

I won't make any predictions as to exactly how this will play out. Most of the logical scenarios have already been put forth. But, as with Nixon's resignation, I suspect the exact timing will ultimately depend on the Republican leadership finally losing all faith in Trump, and deciding it's time to cut their losses.

If you weren't an adult during Watergate, I'd recommend the book "All the President's Men" and "The Final Days" both by Woodward and Bernstein. The first was published before Nixon's resignation, the second after.

If you're a person of great patience, go to the library and start reading microfilm of The Washington Post starting June 18, 1972. Trust me, it will start as a bit of a slog, and after a while will become riveting.

[CTyankee]

36. And go to youtube to see the film "All the president's Men."

I watched a video on the making of that film and it was riveting. We were in deeper shit than we thought...

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

37. I recently re-watched that movie and the

making of it video. I need to get around to rereading the book.

[CTyankee]

39. Good. We have to relearn these lessons ever so often...

mourning the loss of Obama is so over. We've got to get down to the work ahead of us.

[bench scientist]

40. This is Watergate on Methamphetamines.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

41. LOL!

[Peachhead22]

15. He could

But that's an automatic impeachment IMO. No matter who controls congress. R congress critters won't be able to justify anything else.

[exboyfil]

17. I have to wonder if they would give a crap

They seem to not worry about exercising tyrannical power. The damage will already have been done with the self dealing pardons. Things would be so muddied at that point that having a captive Trump to sign their legislation may be the best option.

[exboyfil]

16. A precedent already exists

George H.W. Bush's pardon of those involved in Iran Contra can be viewed as an example of self dealing. Of course that came after he lost his bid for reelection.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-pardon.html

[sharedvalues]

26. Reagan should have been in prison for treason.

Colluding with Iran for personal political advantage is treason. Especially when Reagan extended the time Americans were held hostage.

[Baconator]

20. What's the incentive?

He has no concept of loyalty so how would he personally benefit?

[sharedvalues]

28. A ha. Good point. Because it stops some criminal investigations?

Counter intelligence invest probably continues
But criminal investigations might stop if no chance of conviction exists.

[Baconator]

42. He wouldn't be able to feasibly pardon until the investigation is complete...

... since he can't pardon until the charges are laid out.

I don't believe, possibly incorrectly, that he can give a blanket future immunity.

IOW, they would be done with everything for Flynn before he could intercede on his behalf and by then it's too late and they've moved on to the others.

[drm604]

21. I wonder what, if any, charges various states could bring against some or all of them

As far as I know, Trump couldn't issue pardons for state charges.

[HoneyBadger]

22. I guarantee that he has written pardons for his entire family for any past and future crimes

As well as himself. A pardon is worthless unless accepted.

[Demsrule86]

23. Are you now? Well he will be impeached or removed from office so let him try.

[Cosmocat]

24. There points

1) he wouldn't either way, but people who want to think the dolt will resign, thus alone eliminates that possibility.

2) people are SERIOUSLY underestimating how sick republicans are if they think 45 doling out pardons will be some kind of breaking point for Ryan and McConnell to allow impeachment of 45 to be on the table.

3) it is far from a sure bet that it would result in the country punishing Rs electorally.

[ck4829]

27. He very well could... he wouldn't have an iota of political capital though

[Pantagruel]

29. Or he could go this route

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/banker-who-worked-as-russian-secret-agent-to-be-released-early-deported/

[briv1016]

31. Depends what they try to charge him with.

The one thing the president can't pardon is treason. But if no one is is willing prosecute, (or if he falls off a building beforehand) it's a moot point.

[sdfernando]

32. A pardon would act the same as an

Immunity deal. I subject would have to testify fully and no option to plead the 5th.

[Mr. Ected]

35. It's frightening. The only real factors that have prevented a President from acting like a Dictator

Have been the checks and balances inherent in the three branches of the government, AND the adherence to standards and norms that would normally exemplify the person elected to the post by the American people.

In this case, we have neither element in force. The 2 party system, which has essentially torn America into 2 very separate halves, has also eroded the impact of checks and balances. Party before country. The Republicans walk in lockstop with a man that may well have sold us out to the Russians, for reasons of political expediency alone. Whether treasonous by the legal definition of the word or not, they are traitors to the Founding Fathers and everything our country has stood for over the centuries.

The American electorate, on the other hand, allowed themselves to install a crazy man into office, a man that knows no standards or norms and in fact energizes his base by virtue of his departure from those long-standing characteristics. There is a very large segment of our population that is vile and irreverent and willing to tear us apart in order to achieve some sort of imaginary victory.

Nevertheless, the majority of Americans do not subscribe to these beliefs. Now more than ever we need to rise up and defeat this fascist uprising before it absorbs and suffocates us all.

[stevenleser]

43. That would be a mistake and here is why.

That is essentially the same as giving Flynn immunity for testimony. Once he can't be prosecuted for any kind of crime associated with the Russian collusion, he is free to sing to congress. He can't use the 5th amendment because he can't be prosecuted for self incrimination for any of those crimes. He CAN be charged with obstruction of justice or lying to congress if he isn't forthcoming. The pardon wouldn't cover that.

So Trump would be signing his own impeachment papers if he pardoned Flynn.

[tritsofme]

46. Trump may pardon himself before it's all over.

There is no clear prohibition on a president issuing himself a pardon, the only act that is shielded from the pardon power is impeachment.