There IS a War on Christianity

[NanceGreggs]

Yes, there IS a war on Christianity – and it is being waged by alleged Christians on True Christians.

True Christians follow the words of The Nazarene. They believe in sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, and caring for the sick and dying – things that alleged Christians have been fighting against for decades.

True Christians don’t waste their breath berating stores for having “Xmas sales”. They’re too busy collecting goods for food banks that ensure no one will be without a holiday meal.

True Christians don’t complain about being wished “Happy Holidays”. They’re more concerned with collecting toys for kids whose parents can’t afford gifts for under the tree.

True Christians don’t march on City Hall to have displays recognizing other religious holidays removed from their midst. They are secure in sharing their own faith, and are delighted to see others equally secure sharing in their own.

True Christians don’t tithe their money to so-called “Christian leaders” who live in multi-million-dollar homes built with tax-exempt funds collected from those who can ill afford it – money extorted from seniors on fixed incomes, who often go without themselves in order to contribute to a charlatan’s lavish lifestyle.

Above all else, True Christians do not vote Republican. They do not elect those who continually designate the poor as “lazy moochers”, the hungry as those “trying to game the system”, the sick as beneath contempt, and the homeless as an unsightly blight on their towns and cities.

True Christians vote for Democrats, the people who strive to strengthen the safety nets that accomplish what Jesus taught: caring for the hungry, the sick and the homeless - the very people Republicans wage war on every day, with their alleged “Christian” followers supporting their every move.

With Easter Sunday soon upon us – a time Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Christ and everything his teachings embodied - now would be an opportune time for True Christians to come to the aid of their Saviour. Now would be the perfect moment for alleged Christians to be identified as who they truly are - people who have completely abandoned The Nazarene and everything he symbolized, people who vote for those who stand against His teachings, people who see Christian faith as yet another money-making opportunity.

It is the perfect moment for True Christians to stand up for what they believe in, and to fight back against those who hide their prejudices, their xenophobia, and their homophobia behind the label of Christianity. It is the perfect time for True Christians to stand their ground, and defy those who have twisted their religion into something it was never meant to be.

The Republican party epitomizes everything that is anti-Christ. And those who support that party are equally anti-Christ.

It’s time for the True Christians to say so – loud and clear.

[delisen]

1. Great Post. When the world seems crazy this helps.

[iluvtennis]

55. +++ agree

[Baconator]

2. Yes yes...

I hate to break it to you but the folks handing out soup are just as Christian as the Pences and Huckabees of the world.

You can't just cut out the bits you find icky.

Its all there and you can find a justification to love your neighbor or burn his house down and take his wife if you look in the right spot.

[WomenRising2017]

5. Except the Pences and the Huckabees

won't lend a bed for the LGBT community.

They won't serve soup to all. While they may shout against discrimination, they practice discrimination.

So there is clearly an ideological divide on what is Christian.

Some practice what they preach, but many others are hypocrites.

[BigDemVoter]

17. I loathe the Pence family but am more familiar with the Huckabees.

They are truly and completely deplorable to the core. . . all of them. They are repulsive.

[WomenRising2017]

21. Very repulsive, and very deplorable.

Hypocrites. All of them.

[Eliot Rosewater]

115. And yet are held up by many millions of alleged christians as the perfect christians.

Plain dumb, mean and if Jesus were to return, the huckabeesters of the world would get a real ugly surprise.

[Baconator]

18. That's the point...

There's just as much justification for what Pence, Huckabee and Ham are up to as there is for soup kitchens and charity drives.

It's all in the same book.

It is physically impossible to adhere to the whole thing because there are blatant contradictions throughout the Bible and the dogma.

Why not give that bed to a hurting LBGT teen because it's the right thing to do and because you have empathy and not because it's in a certain chapter of a book and you choose to ignore all the other ones that call for a good ol' fashioned stoning?

This is textbook "No true Scotsman"

[melman]

19. Yes

Well said.

[WomenRising2017]

24. Is this the "whataboutism" I've recently learned about?

Wrong.

Hypocritical is hypocritical.

There is no justification.

It's a simple matter of right vs. wrong.

You simply cannot pretend to be a Christian who upholds Christian values while picking and choosing which values matter. It's hypocritical and we all see it.

[Baconator]

30. You don't understand...

There isn't a Christian living on earth or in the history of mankind who has ever lived up to every Christian value.

It's physically impossible and how is it hypocritical? All of those wackadoodles can find a biblical justification for every one of their actions.

Just like you can...

Your personal interpretation of what makes a 'good Christian' is love and harmony etc...

Ted Cruz's personal interpretation of what makes a 'good Christian' is dominionism and theocracy.

There's a million plus other interpretations and they all come from the same dogma. Pretending that all of that other 'icky' stuff doesn't exist or apply because you're the one who knows what a 'real Christian' looks like is the height of arrogance.

Their interpretation of bronze age musings is just as valid as yours.

All of those evil fucks I listed above feel absolutely 100% as certain and justified in their beliefs and actions as you do.

I say again, why do you need it in the first place? Is empathy not enough of a reason to not be evil?

[WomenRising2017]

37. I do understand.

And I stand by what I've said.

[Baconator]

39. Choose the bits you like and ignore the rest...

You do you...

[WomenRising2017]

41. I'm not going to play your game.

I was quite clear.

[Baconator]

44. Makes folks itchy to think about this stuff...

It's tough, I get it...

Give it a think and try to point out where I was factually incorrect.

Let me know what you come up with. I'm genuinely curious.

Hopefully it gets better than the current standard of 'nuh uh'.

[WomenRising2017]

51. No, it doesn't.

And it's not tough at all.

I'm just tired of wasting my time trying to talk to antagonistic, closed minded people.

[GoneOffShore]

157. For some people Rhetoric is greater than Logic.

And trying to play their game is, as the saying goes, like playing chess with a pigeon.

[stopwastingmymoney]

42. Choose the bits about what Jesus actually preached and leave the rest

My interpretation of a real Christian, and I'm educated on the topic.

[Baconator]

46. Same thing...

Pick and choose...

If you're just coming up with the old "Do unto others" bit then why not just do that because you want to and not because a folk tale got out of control?

[stopwastingmymoney]

47. Did I say I was a Christian?

I stand by what I did say.

[Baconator]

48. It was strongly implied...

Last edited Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:53 AM - Edit history (1)

If not, then what's your point?

Looking to fables, myth and literature to help you arrive at some sort of ethical philosophy?

Sure, go nuts. No complaints from me.

[WomenRising2017]

53. How about you just stop trying to stir the pot?

You made your point. You stated your position.

The fact that you want to keep forcing your point makes you look like an authoritarian.

Is that what you're striving for?

[Baconator]

81. I don't think you know what authoritarian means...

I repeat the point in increasingly simpler and clearer terms because it's an important one and the world will be better off once more people understand it.

Claiming a deep understanding of a mythical figures political leanings is the same bull that Republicans peddle. Jesus would have felt really strongly about blah blah blah. He would never vote Republican.... (Hint: He/Himself/His dad might though. That guy loves a good war or genocide)

It's 'holier than thou' and hypocritical. Sure is an amazing coincidence that 'true Christians' should all believe just like you do.

What are the odds?

I say again, if you want to do good in the world then just do it. Not because a religious doctrine told you to but because you want to and it's the right thing to do.

In the end, I'll let the point go once more people concede that they all pick and choose from their religious pots. It's the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance that needs to be addressed and then humanity can grow up and move on.

[Jakes Progress]

97. Stop proselytizing.

I know few religious bigots as zealous as those who don't believe.

[Baconator]

104. Like I said...

Thinking about this stuff makes people itchy.

Once enough people apply some logic the human race can grow up.

[Jakes Progress]

139. I guess it's a good thing then

that people who keep saying that they are logical don't really think very deeply. Stay furry.

[Baconator]

147. There's a statement that would be right at home...

... in any church.

[Jakes Progress]

148. More

likely from the old coot libertarian with the stale cigarette and cheap beer sitting at the local bar. So lonely and bitter.

[Baconator]

152. That's what we call projection...

[Jakes Progress]

155. That's what we call recognition.

Saw you there yesterday - droning on and on and on. Hogging a part of the bar and accosting every unaware customer who came up to pay the tab. Launching into another harangue about gods and currency and "rational thinking". Unaware of the sniggers and disgust. Just happy to have someone within earshot. We all felt sorry - but not sorry enough to try to help. Again. We're sorry you're this way. Bitter and curmudgeonly are not a good way to go through life.

[Baconator]

156. I see you've progressed to the point...

... Where you just make things up and combine them with what you think are insults because you've run out of intelligent things to say.

It was a short trip.

Seriously, what kind of adult mocks the concept of rational thought?

[Jakes Progress]

158. Yes. Progress.

Instead of silly attacks inanely disguised as "rational thought". Notice the quotes around the words.

Actually, I've had messages asking why I bait the poor thing. My only excuse is that every time we play tit and tat, the excellent OP pops back up in the list. And maybe while you flail about trying desperately to convince me that you are full of rational thought, you are kept from crapping on other threads. Until Bill Mahrer comes on and enthralls you with his intellect.

Bashing someone's beliefs is not intelligent. Not morally, historically, or rationally. It is the sign of insecurity. In doing so, you become a clone of the worst elements of religion that you attack. But to understand that would require rational thought that doesn't get set off in quotation marks.

[Baconator]

159. Is this that 'all beliefs are equal and deserve respect' bit?

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. You are as set in your ignorance as Ken Ham or Jerry Falwell.

Not all ideas are created equal and the deference we give to some because they are common is ludicrous. Change a few details and they'd throw you in a nut house.

It's the idea that beliefs shouldn't be challenged and instead 'respected' no matter the content that has led humanity down some of its darkest paths.

Keep dragging your feet but the rest of us are moving on and growing up.

[azureblue]

91. Wrong

This is a textbook case of appropriating the name, aka not walking the talk. Jesus taught quite a few things, and one of them was that what he taught would upset those who followed the laws of the Old Testament.

These so called Christian have a few hallmarks:
They cherry pick verses from the old testament to support their prejudices.
They are all about fearing "God", condemnation of the non believers, the superiority of their religion, and seeing their religion as some sort of army. ("Onward Christian soldiers" is a good example.
They will eject any church member who dares to ask too many questions. ("uh, about that flood thing.. What about the fishes? Did they also die or were fish on the ark, too?&quot
They make much noise about worshiping God and Jesus, but talk very little about the teachings of Jesus. They will go one about "God says" and "it's in the Bible" but when you read what they refer to it will be passages from the old testament and by Paul - the con man who took over the faith some 100 years after the death of Jesus, and bent it into what became the foundation for modern Christianity.
They are all about forgiving their own "sins" but not so much about forgiving other people's sins. And Jesus flatly says the opposite when he taught "Judge not".

The defining text that is Matthew 25:31-46. This is Jesus saying what will happen to those who refuse his teachings and he clearly says what those teachings are.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

If you want to get an idea of who Jesus really was and what he taught, go look up the "Gospel of St. Thomas" on line. This was left out of the Bible because it paints a very different picture of him than what the church wanted to portray him as.

[Baconator]

94. All of that nasty stuff is still on the books...

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

If your takeaway from the myth of Jesus is 'don't be an ass to other people' then more power to you.

We all draw out philosophies from history, culture and literature.

Just don't treat this fictional character as the end all be all or push your interpretation as the one and only truth.

Any modern progressive would also ignore some of the nastier bits from Jesus himself that I've laid out in other posts.

[Bozvotros]

121. Matthew 25 (the whole chapter)

Is an absolute beat down on religious hypocrites, who were the one group that really angered Jesus and it is white hot in Matthew 25. Funny you never hear Christian evangelists do a sermon on it.

[calimary]

22. Welcome to DU, WomenRising2017!

This has irritated me, as a lifelong Catholic, so badly that I put Matthew 25: 35-45 in my sig line. That's the one featuring the "whatever you did(did not do) to the least of these, you did(did not do) to Me" passage. But you never hear these assholes who wrap themselves around the Cross of Christ mention it. At all. Not ONCE.

[WomenRising2017]

40. Thanks.

I'm not one that can be considered pro religion, but I have no problem with those who choose to practice.

What I am is anti hypocrisy.

[Docreed2003]

45. As a fellow catholic here's another one they can't wrap their heads around

Whenever they start with the Sodom and Gomorrah BS in relation to our LGBT brothers and sisters, I love to quote Ezekiel 16:49

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy."

Heads explode...I can assure you

[calimary]

111. WHOOOOOOO - and from the Old Testament, no less!

Those who go to the OT usually fall right into Leviticus and can't get up.

[Eliot Rosewater]

116. Recovering catholic atheist here.

I know one christian, only one.

He was a Catholic monk and dont know what order, dead now for sure.

Lived in the mountains, sort of, complicated story. Never asked for money, worked for what he needed. Expressed the love purely as Jesus did, as far as I could tell.

One priest I knew was almost a christian, in that he could have been successful and big money guy but chose to serve Christ instead.

These two men are as close to Christ (who does not exist, at least not as a supernatural being) as I will ever get. I wish that Christ did exist, actually.

I admire Catholics and others who can live as close to the life as one can, like you probably do.

p.s. you cannot support trump and be a christian, impossible

[LAS14]

3. k & r

[c-rational]

4. Well said! nt

[calimary]

23. Welcome to DU, c-rational!

Nance tends to whack it out of the ballpark quite regularly. One of many cool reads here, for sure!

[brer cat]

6. K&R

[Staph]

7. I saw a photo of a wonderful church sign.

"Love them all.

I'll sort them out.

God"

[narnian60]

106. +100

Thank you.

[smirkymonkey]

8. K&R

[bdjhawk]

9. Well said!

We are in Florida for a few weeks and see the pious Liberty University ads on TV all the time. They and their ilk drive me crazy. What phonies! But true Christians are so focused on doing good that the phonies don't ever seem to be challenged or face pushback. We all just want to hope that people see through them but that side is filled with aggressive zealots who push their beliefs on everyone in their paths. Your post is clear in highlighting their hypocrisy--thanks, I needed that!

[calimary]

25. Welcome to DU, bdjhawk!

Wouldn't it be remarkable - just once - to hear one of these professional pseudo-"Christians" bring up the New Testament passage about Jesus and the rich young man?

From Wikipedia:

Yeshua and the rich young man (also called Jesus and the rich ruler) is an episode in the life of Jesus in the New Testament that deals with eternal life[1][2] and the World to Come.[3] It appears in the Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, the Gospel of Mark 10:17–31 and the Gospel of Luke 18:18–30. It relates to the Evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty and obedience.

In Matthew, a rich young man asks Jesus what actions bring eternal life. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments. When the man responds that he already observes them, and asks what else he can do, Jesus adds:
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.[4]

Luke has a similar episode and states that:
When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God / Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man

The way I learned it in Catholic school makes me laugh at donald trump. When one asks "how does this story end?" the answer is "...and the rich young man went away - sad." Just like the way some of donald trump's tweets end! Sad.

[Baconator]

33. Don't forget the ever popular...

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;

and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 10

[Jakes Progress]

99. Careful.

That stick you are using to stir shit will come off all over you.

Your insecurity is hilarious.

[Baconator]

108. Why do people get so weirded out when you quote from something beyond the greatest hits?

[Jakes Progress]

140. See?

All that shitty attitude and thinking all over your posts now. Put the stick down. It is not your friend.

[Baconator]

141. Did you respond to the right post?

[Jakes Progress]

149. Try to keep up.

If you post, you need to see what you have been saying. I guess if all you do is stir shit, you won't want to look at what you have created though. Don't be so bitter. You can stay home on any Sunday you want. No one is going to make you go to Sunday School. You don't have to keep anyone else from going in order for you to stay home.

[Baconator]

150. Definitely the wrong post...

... or a very sensitive post author.

[Jakes Progress]

154. Now. Slowly.

Read all your posts and replies on this thread. I would draw a big old arrow to point for you, but you need the exercise.

[redstateblues]

10. K&R

[PatrickforO]

11. Jesus and Marx would have got on quite well.

Jesus and Friedman? Not so much.

Jesus and the Kochs? LOL

Jesus and the Mercers? He'd be tossing their butts out of the temple.

My temple should be a house of prayer!
But you have made it a den of thieves!
Get out! Get out!

From JC Superstar. Remember? Great rock opera.

[sheshe2]

12. KnR

[Bernardo de La Paz]

13. Brilliant insight. New way of looking at the hypocrisy in large segments of christianity. Thx. nt

[Dorn]

14. What I want for myself -- I want for everybody

From Samuel Jones Republican mayor of Toledo; 1897 - 1904

[calimary]

26. Welcome to DU, Dorn!

Now THERE'S a quote! We'll never see its likes play out in real life again. Modern republi-CONS have rewritten it with toxic ink: "What I want for myself is everything. As for everybody else, screw you - you're on your own."

[sprinkleeninow]

56. Repugnicants version of sharing:

"What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine."

[nancy1942]

15. Well said.

So many alleged Christians are the ones who give all Christians a bad name.

[calimary]

28. Welcome to DU, nancy1942!

It just blows my mind how true that statement is. They're the ones who believe in the "prosperity gospel" wherein God wants you to be rich. Sounds good. But is totally NOT what I learned Jesus was about, when I was in Catholic school. And MAN did I spend a lot of years in Catholic school.

[The Wizard]

16. Mahatma Gandhi

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”


― Mahatma Gandhi

[melman]

20. Tell you what

how about you keep all the Christian stuff -- 'True' and otherwise -- to yourself.


Many of us that are not "True Christians" would prefer not to hear about it. Shocking I know.

[Leith]

27. Although Nance Greggs Is Perfectly Able to Defend Herself

I just have to speak up.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion and to share it with others, just as everyone here is. If you don't like what a poster has to say or the message in a certain post, you are free to disagree.

But to tell someone that he or she has to keep quiet because you don't like the opinion is beyond the pale. May I suggest that you ignore the poster or trash the thread? Many of us look forward to Nance's essays and appreciate the uncommon writing talent.

Bless your heart.

Edited to add: I'm an atheist and I read the OP with great interest.

[Warpy]

34. Thank you and thank you

and I'll see that "bless your heart" and call.

The truth is that there is a deep divide among Christians and it is also tearing this country apart and it needs to be addressed both in public as well as in the pulpit by ministers who got the point.

It can stand getting an airing here. I have no idea what goes on in the Christian groups here--I don't share it so I stay out--but I would hope they're discussing this stuff and what can be done about it. After all, Jesus did warn of all the false prophets to come and it seems we have a bumper crop out there.

[Leith]

35. Could You Tell That

I was self-censoring like crazy with that post?

[Warpy]

38. Uh-huh

[sprinkleeninow]

49. 'allo, 'allo,

you don't personally know me or what i'm about

jumping in here altho it's another late nite and unfinished laundry and whatnot is calling

our tradition of Faith (some 'others' have a small bird when they hear the word 'tradition')

anyhow,

a theologian of ours posits this:
"We know where the Church is, but we do not know where the Church isn't."

i've been witness to people 'unchurched' so to speak that exemplified beautifully the teachings of The Anointed One beyond some that call themselves by His Name

unbelievable, but extraordinary--a thing of spiritual beauty

[get the red out]

76. I agree!

To want to silence someone else is terribly authoritarian. I'm not religious, but I am anti-authoritarian in a big way. It isn't hard to pass on by a thread or trash it, like you said.

[mcar]

79. +1000!

[snooper2]

86. nah not beyond the pale- religions are a crutch to human evolution...

Fucking fundies of all stripes are why babies are gassed and people get murdered....

[NanceGreggs]

43. I'm not a Christian ...

... "true" or otherwise. I'm a Jew.

That doesn't preclude me from respecting what has been accepted as the teachings of Christ, nor does it prohibit me from recognizing how those teachings have been twisted for the sake of gaining political power.

[sprinkleeninow]

52. Your writings are eloquent.

[stopwastingmymoney]

60. This topic certainly brings out a lot of rude people

Curious that...

[WomenRising2017]

63. Yes, it sure did.

I don't care for rude people.

I like to call them out. There is no reason for them to jump into threads to stir stuff up for the sake of being rude.

[Baconator]

84. Are you just looking for a mutual circle...

... handshake about how awesome everything is?

Why post if you don't want to discuss or hear a counter-argument?

You might learn something.

[TommyCelt]

101. @melman, tell you what...

Don't like the content? Don't read the content. It's fairly easy to click away from an article you'd prefer not to read.

Shocking, I know.

[burrowowl]

29. K&R!!!!!!

Well said!

[LaydeeBug]

31. amen! nt

[notdarkyet]

32. Amen.

I used to say teachers don't vote for republicans. Had my own list why not. Oxymorons.

[AgadorSparticus]

36. TRUTH!!! Was just talking to a friend about this subject. Getting REALLY

Tired of the fake christians who hide behind religion for their hate, bigotry, and ignorance. True christians need to speak up against this virus.

[lunamagica]

50. K&R! Well said. Thank you, nance!

[MountainFool]

54. Ah, but True Scotsman ....

Sorry, but any discussions of "True" this or "True" that always brings to mind the True Scotsman fallacy.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[NanceGreggs]

59. True Christians ...

... follow Christ and his teachings. Alleged Christians stand against those teachings.

I think this is pretty much an open-and-shut case.

[Baconator]

85. Which teachings do you like best?

The ones where he threatens violence?

Matthew 10:34: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."



The one where he says he's come to break up families?

Matthew 10:35-37: "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter- in- law against her mother- in- law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."


How about the one where he calls divorced women adulteresses, regardless of the reason?

Matthew 5:31-32: "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I way to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."


Thought crime?

Matthew 5:27-28: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'"


There's more btw...

[NanceGreggs]

120. The teachings of Christ ...

... are based on his own words in the New Testament: To do unto others as one would have done unto them, to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, care for the sick, forgive those who do us harm, etc.

Those teachings are the very foundation of Christian behaviour, and have been accepted as such by his followers. I have never heard any Christian, real or alleged, deny that basic principle.

What RW politicians have done is change the labels, if you will, e.g. welfare and food stamp recipients are not "the hungry" Jesus talked about feeding - they are simply lazy people who want a handout. Ergo, they do not qualify as those who should be fed. The homeless we see on the streets are not "the homeless" Jesus spoke of - they are shiftless misfits who refuse to work for a living. Ergo, they are not the homeless Christ said should be sheltered. THIS is how alleged Christians justify dismissing the teachings of The Nazarene.

Do I personally believe that Jesus lived and died on the cross for our sins? Not at all. But I DO revere the message that has been attributed to him for centuries, and respect those who try to "walk the walk" in their daily lives. "Doing unto others ..." strikes me as a good way to go - and it is a concept that is part of all major religions.

My own feeling is that if you claim to be a Follower of Christ - which RW "Christians" invariably do - you can't pretend that the basic principles Jesus taught don't apply when inconvenient. And you don't vote for politicians whose policies are clearly the opposite of what you claim to believe.

[Baconator]

132. Christianity isn't just Jesus...

... and even that particular literary figure doesn't have an A+ rating in the morals department.

As I said before, if you want to take away "Do unto others" to apply in your own life and leave the rest aside? Then good on you. That's how I live my life.

However, I can find equal or superior morals in most of my sci-fi and military collection.

The message isn't exclusive to one particular tall tale.

[NanceGreggs]

133. I have absolutely no idea ...

... what you're talking about.

[Baconator]

134. Check again and let me know what confused you and I can spell it out...

... in simpler terms.

[NanceGreggs]

137. ...

"I can find equal or superior morals in most of my sci-fi and military collection.

The message isn't exclusive to one particular tall tale."

What do these statements have to do with the OP?

[Baconator]

138. The conversation continued after that OP...

Do I personally believe that Jesus lived and died on the cross for our sins? Not at all. But I DO revere the message that has been attributed to him for centuries, and respect those who try to "walk the walk" in their daily lives. "Doing unto others ..." strikes me as a good way to go - and it is a concept that is part of all major religions.

I was pointing out that if you are just looking for cultural or literary figures to draw moral inspiration from then Jesus is one of many places you could go. I can find characters equally as worthy (or more worthy) of emulation is most of my book collection.

[NanceGreggs]

142. You finding characters in books, etc.,

... still has nothing to do with the OP discussion - which, in turn, has nothing to do with "looking for cultural or literary figures" at all.

In fact, such things are SO off-topic, I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say.

[Baconator]

143. What is so difficult to understand?

You look to a fictional character in a book, like Jesus, and draw away some things that inform your personal philosophy on life. I suspect that you take the good and leave out the bad.

I even bolded the part where you referenced it. Here it is again:

Do I personally believe that Jesus lived and died on the cross for our sins? Not at all. But I DO revere the message that has been attributed to him for centuries, and respect those who try to "walk the walk" in their daily lives. "Doing unto others ..." strikes me as a good way to go - and it is a concept that is part of all major religions.

I'm pointing out that I get equally 'good' or even 'better' morals from my own personal library.

Where are you getting lost?

[NanceGreggs]

144. Where I got lost ...

... was trying to figure out why you're talking about something completely off-topic as though it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

No offense, but I am not the least bit interested in what you think are "better morals", or where you find them - which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the OP or this discussion thread.

I said I revere the message attributed to Jesus - full stop. It's not a contest, nor a discussion about whether someone else had "good or even better morals".

If you want to discuss such things, I suggest you post an OP about THAT topic instead of trying to change the subject in my thread to your liking.

[Baconator]

145. Peachy for you...

So you can say which messages you revere and consider important but others cant...

It appears you are just looking for a bunch of 'attaboys' for your appreciation of the 'true message of Jesus'.

[NanceGreggs]

146. ...

[Major Nikon]

122. The fallacy is also open-and-shut

The "teachings" in which you speak are highly contradictory and widely interpreted. It's also pretty much impossible to know exactly what Christ actually taught as much of the bible has been adapted to fit specific agendas which came along after his death. As such you have many different denominations many of which claim the others are going straight to hell.

The only thing that's really true about Christians is anyone can rightfully claim to be one. Organized religion is simply a method of controlling the masses by an inarbitrable claim to the truth. Christianity is no exception to this and for proof you need only to look at how Christianity has changed to fit the political objectives of those who wield power. A true "War on Christianity" would have to include abolishing it entirely, or at the very least removing all organizational control.

[Baconator]

135. No no...

Don't you understand?

We are special enough to have found the person who really... truly... totally... understands the one true meaning of Christianity and what it's supposed to be.

Aren't we the lucky ones?

[whathehell]

58. Except in Egypt, maybe,

with the ISIS church attack, forty four slaughtered.

[WomenRising2017]

64. Should we start keeping checklists?

All deaths in the name of war or religion, suck.

[whathehell]

65. No

we should ignore those that don't enhance our righteous SJW image.

[ck4829]

88. If we did keep a checklist, can't forget to put "mentally ill", on drugs, can't get a girlfriend...

all in the Non-Muslim category. Since it seems to be the go-to for them instead of it being 'war' for some reason.

[tandgf]

61. I question these words

I go where these words went often in my head - I stay there for days on end - I struggle continuously at giant levels of force against t and his presidency and the people that support him - Knowing 80% of the evangelicals supported this man makes me sick to my stomach - Seriously - I can't stand what is going on - I believe there is a problem going on with people's interpretation of the truth as it is written in the bible - As much as I understand these words to be true in my flesh - In my spirit I know otherwise - There is no choosing of sides concerning these matters - In my thoughts when I go there as I do often I am acting like the Sadducees and the Pharisees when they crucified Christ in the name of THEIR TRUTH - I have been reading daily for months in James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and all three John's - For the life of me all I can see is my needed discipline to love and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - And that does not include judgment of others - Jesus didn't even get mad when they were crucifying Him - He didn't speak angrily or hateful in front of the people that were condemning Him to death - Some of His last words were "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." - I don't believe divisiveness is the answer - I do not agree with the Christians of which you are speaking either - But that doesn't make me right to think ill of them or to judge them - I need to get the log out of my own eye - I need to offer the best presentation of what I know concerning His teachings - Hoping that by my lights someone comes my way and we can heal a little bit a piece at a time - I need to pray and listen - Now then - Let me get off my soap box - What I just shared is what I see when I read - I have a major problem in trying to live the words I just spoke - I can't seem to be able to reason anything out with those people you speak of - In all due respect they seem to be so self righteous and arrogant with their entitlement as offered by their holier than thou aspects of their beliefs that it is quite difficult to expect any changes concerning these matters - And so "What am I going to do" - I can't change anyone else - I do know how important the presentation towards truth with love is for a heart and a spirit - That is a great responsibility in my dealing with others - No matter what side of the fence they may be on - And so I continue - With love and forgiveness as best I can today - And under these most trying times it is quite difficult - But that doesn't change the "Father, forgive them" part of my journey

[workinclasszero]

62. +1000

Thanks so much for your great post!

The religious right so-called Christians are about as far from the teachings of Jesus Christ as a group could be.

They hate the poor, the sick, the old, and any people not white skinned. They love, love, LOVE the rich, money, power, greed, violence, death and hate!

Jesus said to judge them by their fruits. The religious rights fruit is rotten to the core and stinks to high heaven! They love to condemn people they hold as sinners while their own hypocritical hands and souls are dirty as hell.

They make me sick. The republican party has infiltrated and destroyed much of the Christian church in this country. The right frightened them with the evil coming from without when it was their evil from within that did the deed!

[stopbush]

66. The war against the scourge of Christianity is being fought by reason.

We as a species have to move beyond the make believe of religion. Anything that may be considered to be good about religion exists outside of religion as well. All religion does is reinforce the very worst instincts of mankind.

Time to kick it to the curb, whether it's extreme, moderate or benign. Time have have done with childish things like Christianity.

[NanceGreggs]

67. I'm one of those ...

... respect other people's beliefs people.

I don't need to share those beliefs - I need only to recognize that they exist, whether I share them or not.

I respect the faith of others, when the tenets of that faith are grounded in "doing unto others as we would have done to ourselves."

It's those who purport to adhere to those tenets, but then don't, who I have a problem with.

I am not anti-religion - I am anti-hypocrite.

[stopbush]

92. No one is under the obligation to respect the beliefs of others.

Do you respect the political beliefs of Mitch McConnell? I doubt it.

We are under the obligation to respect the *right* of people to hold whatever beliefs they will. You can believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Jesus or supply side economics. That doesn't mean that I have to respect any of those beliefs, even as I defend your right to hold them.

As far as respecting the beliefs of others as long as they exhibit a "do unto others" quality, well, that's a judgement call on your part, is it not? Ergo, it's subjective, which means that it's an inadequate and inappropriate measure to use in such an evaluation. Better to stick with the objective, which is to grant the right to hold the belief without considering anything about the value of the belief and leave the level of "respect" at that.

BTW - in all the years of reading your essays on DU, this is the first time I can recall my disagreeing with your basic premise.

[NanceGreggs]

105. The discussion is about religious faith ...

... not political beliefs.

And nowhere did I say anything about an "obligation" to respect anything.

[stopbush]

109. Why should religious "faith" be regarded any differently than political beliefs?

Because there's a vicious, imaginary sky daddy waiting to mete out eternal damnation to non-believers? Because these paternalistic/misogynistic belief systems have been around for a while?

Why is there any difference at all between religious faith and belief in elves? There is none. Absolutely none. Is faith in John Frum less serious than faith in Jesus?

Religious faith is the cheapest commodity going. It doesn't even require the need to keep to a set of instructions. It's what every you want it to be. Pick and choose, mix and match. Ultimately meaningless, as no investment of any kind is ever made outside of one's own limitations.

Don't empower bullshit.

The field is level in the marketplace of ideas.

[NanceGreggs]

113. I fail to see ...

... how discussing the obvious hypocrisy of RW alleged Christians is "empowering bullshit".

[stopbush]

117. I'm not talking about alleged Xians. I'm talking about Xianity, period.

It's bullshit, period. Even moderate and indifferent Xians are enabling bullshit. No need to even bring up the alledged Xians.

BTW - those alleged Xians are "real" Xians, just like every other Xian.

[NanceGreggs]

118. I had no idea ...

... that you are the final arbiter of what one can believe or not believe. This will undoubtedly come as a great shock to people of faith everywhere, who didn't realize they're supposed to check-in with you first before making up their own mind about such things.

[stopbush]

123. That's a lame argument. I've read you at DU for years,

so I know you can do better.

[NanceGreggs]

125. Your idea of "doing better" ...

... seems to hinge on agreeing with you - which, in this case, I don't.

[duncang]

68. Of all the Presodents

There have been in recent history two Presidents who have actually shown the highest Christian moral standards. Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama. And both of those were vilified by the religious right.

[DetlefK]

69. Leviticus 19: 9-10

Free food for "the poor and the stranger" and the rich people must pay for it.

Funny how the right-wingers love Leviticus when it comes to hating gays, but they have never heard of the verses that command being nice to the poor and to immigrants.

[loyalsister]

70. I take people at their word

The language that makes up religious narrative is too vague for there to be a single simple true interpretation. I knew a woman who claimed that satanism and some expressions of Christianity are one and the same. I had to admit that she had a point. An athlete's prayer to win is also a prayer that someone else will lose. A prayer to win a war is a prayer for people to die.
If someone calls themself a Christian and uses interpretations of the bible that I see as improbable, it doesn't negate their self identification. Because they can argue their point. The original authors are not here to clarify, so we're stuck with what brought about so many different denominations.
I don't say this out of respect for people who use religion in ways that I think are flawed. Only to say that by nature, it is too easy to reinterpret, misinterpret, malinterpret, etc. I am suspicious of claims to a single truth about something that will always be arguable.

[Maraya1969]

71. I'm printing this out to give to my faux Christian brother and sister in law when they come down

[kydo]

72. I was assaulted in the chapel by one of these "Christians" last year.

And eventually I was forced to quit. The crazy thing is my assailant is the wife of the paid sacristan on staff. I was also a sacristan but not an employee. I was volunteer.

Small bit of background. Most parishes (Catholic), in my area no longer have sacristans on the payroll. They opened it up to more people by making it a ministry run by volunteers. The parish I was with wanted to do this too. But the person who is the paid sacristan was getting near retiring. So the parish office decided instead of letting him go the would make this person a part time employee. He was full time.

This person totally refused to do work the new hours. He worked the same hours as he did as full time employee. His plan was to keep track of the hours he was working off the clock and sue the church for unpaid wages. He also works 7 days a week.

When the parish office tried to stop this by scheduling me to cover the days the paid guy was NOT supposed to be there, his wife took matters into her own hands. She harassed me and tried to turn the rest of the volunteer staff against me, by falsely claiming I was trying to take her husbands job.

One day before the morning prayer she comes up to me and starts with her normal how "unholy, unchristian and disrespectful" I was. And then went on to say I had been drinking and she could smell it on my breathe. I am currently working on 17 years of sobriety. Anyway we went in to the morning prayer and she sat next to me. I was fuming mad the whole time. As soon as the service was over I confronted her right there in the chapel. She freaked out as everyone in the chapel heard me shred her lie to pieces. She panicked and took her prayer book (she has large print version so the thing is the size of a bible, its not small), and started hitting me with it. Nothing was done other then she was banned from the working sacristy. Which she completely ignored.

In Nov she put her plan to have me removed into action. I was crushed by the stolen election and took two weeks off. It was during that time she convinced others that all her hubby's woes were my fault. I was trying to have him removed, blah blah yadda yadda all that and I was a Hillary voter and thus related to the spawn of satan so I must be removed. Her plan worked I was removed from most of my duties when I returned from vacation.

The month of Dec totally sucked for me. So bad that when Jan rolled around, I realized I had lost a lot of weight. I went from 125lb to 96lbs in a little less then a month.

I tried to make it work but ending up leaving at the beginning of Feb.

They are still at the church and the employee still works 7 days a week and his wife just bullies other people now. The wife is bat-shit crazy. I was not the first person she harassed. She is also a rabid rethug, Watches the faux news 24/7.


I joined the gym and am working on putting my life back together. Got a trainer and have put on about 10lbs of mostly muscle. Which is good cause I am 50 and my muscle making days are on the waning end.

[DesertFlower]

73. great post. K&R

[AngryAmish]

74. That is some world class gatekeeping you are doing there

And especially in bad taste since ISIS just literally declared war on the Coptic Christians in Egypt..

[Dorian Gray]

75. I think there is a war on christians

but it's on coptic christians in Egypt.

Here (in the US) everyone can go suck an egg.

[mcar]

77. A lovely Holy Week essay

Thanks Nance.

[HAB911]

78. Just a question from an atheist

Who exactly has the authority to say who is and who isn't a "true" Christian?

Personally, I think the last Christian died on the cross. (if that is a true story)

[moriah]

102. The people I've met who struck me as such....

... generally were relatively quiet about their faith unless they felt it immediately under threat, but lived by it -- their form of witnessing. I could see them walking the walk, not just talking the talk, and taking comfort in it in a way that made them better, kinder, more healthy people even when dealing with terrible things.

One couple I knew decided to go on a specialized mission trip where the purpose was not to convert, but simply to bear witness that Christians could live peacefully in the Maldives.

I'm not anything close to Christian (unless my almost complete agreement with the doctrine in Liberal Quakerism counts) but I was raised by a woman of true faith. Whether that makes her a "True Christian(tm)" I don't know, but I know her faith and how it helped her.

[Major Nikon]

126. I'm not convinced Jesus himself would find any Christians acceptable

His own teachings were co-opted from the very beginning to fit a specific agenda that was very much different than the one he intended.

[Baconator]

136. How do we think Paul Bunyan feels about the modern retelling of his exploits?

[caroldansen]

80. Beautifully stated. The bible says that too. They talk the talk but do not

walk the walk. He calls them hypocrits. He also calls them whited sepulchers filled with dead mens bones, saith The Lord.

[Fresh_Start]

82. may I share this on facebook?

if so, do you want me to credit you by name?
Thank you.

[coco22]

83. Kicked&Recommended!

This should be spread far and wide ,I think I will make copies and put them every where so call Christians attend and worship and everywhere else. I am sick of these hypocrities!

[Gothmog]

87. Another really great OP Nance

[heaven05]

89. as someone

whose experience has included a heartbreaking, almost faith breaking(in the goodness of human beings called christians)brush with the conservative kkkristians running the religious money-makers called organized religion in this alleged christian country, this OP is refreshing in that it should remind true Christians where the priorities are in true Christian faith and action. GREAT OP.

[LAS14]

90. To those here who state their antipathy to everyone who...

... calls themselves Christian, on what can you possibly base this opinion? It is the kind of prejudicial thinking we associate with the far right.

Great OP!

[AtheistCrusader]

93. 'No True Scotsman' fallacy overload.

It may well be, there are no 'true Christians' at all.

[Jakes Progress]

96. K&R Yes. Hypocrisy is not a tenet of Christianity.

One of your best.

[Moostache]

98. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

I have no use for organized religion of any kind, but I have zero tolerance for fundamentalists of ANY stripe. The fact that the so-called religious right and the purveyors of the "prosperity gospel" intersect neatly on a Venn diagram serves only to reinforce my utter disdain for self-professed evangelicals. I have also found it utterly useless to engage them in logical or rational conversation about it, so I ignore them and keep them safely away from my children...including my wacko-fundie in-laws and their prayer warriors and bible studies.

Cafeteria Christians rule the flock and ignore the urgings of the sheppard.

[ck4829]

100. K&R

[Martin Eden]

103. I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians

-- attributed to Ghandi

[kimbutgar]

107. I've been turned off by organized religion because of the hypocrites in the rethug party

Who say they are Christian.

That said, I know some good Christians who by their deeds not words show they are disciplines of Jesus.

[vkkv]

110. BRAVO !!

[AwakeAtLast]

112. I wish I could hug you

I so needed to read this. 45's election has made me question my faith. This helps me in so many ways. Thank you!

[NanceGreggs]

124. Thank you.

I will consider myself hugged!

I am just stating the obvious here, and something that's been widely discussed since Trump's "election", i.e. you can't claim to be a Christian while voting for politicians whose policies are anti-Christian, any more than you can claim you are not a misogynist, racist bigot while electing a misogynist, racist bigot to lead the nation.

And thanks again for the virtual hug!

[tiptonic]

114. Corp jet

How about a $4,000,000 private jet, 'to do gods work'. We have a few parked at our little airport, right outside of town. I wonder how many social security checks, went into those.

[kentuck]

119. Amen to that!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

127. Brava! This needed to be said.

Perfectly. By you. 👏🏾👍🏾

[k8conant]

128. Thank you, Nance!

A blessed Pascha and Resurrection to you.

[Different Drummer]

129. One of the best posts I've read on DU. K&R! n/t

[Left-over]

130. I Totally Agree

My wife and I are Christians and have been for many years but we are blackballed in local churches to a degree because we do not support the right wing garbage. The Jesus that I worship said to love your neighbor as yourself, and to love God with all your heart were the only commandments. We believe that every person has value including the poor, the elderly, the children, and those different from you. Jesus used the Samaritan people because the Jews hated them and cast them out but in his teachings he alluded to them to show whom we should love. Not just people who look and act like us.

[lordsummerisle]

131. k&r n/t

[gademocrat7]

151. K&R!

[wryter2000]

153. We do say so

We don't have the money to buy politicians. So no one listens to us.

[dalton99a]

160. Beautifully put.