General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUnited Airlines appears to have violated their contract with their passenger.
Here is the contract:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21
Rule 25 is about how passengers may be denied boarding due to oversold flights.
This wouldn't apply because he wasn't denied boarding: he was already seated.
Rule 21 is about the circumstances in which a person can be removed from a flight, and includes a number of issues related to safety. But there is no indication that the doctor was removed because of poor or unsafe behavior. He only started yelling and went limp when they decided to improperly remove him.
And the reason they decided to remove him was for the airline's convenience.
I hope he sues.
KT2000
(20,577 posts)the computer printout that named the people to be removed.
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)It is such a shitty company. I hope people boycott it.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)a very rich first class passenger
who can afford a LOT of legal representation.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028923680
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)They certainly need to revamp the way they do business.
Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)They could have denied him the right to board involuntarily under their contract. It would have been completely legit.
They are going to lose BILLIONS over this.
randome
(34,845 posts)Don't know if that's true, but it sounds like a loophole to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 11, 2017, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)
removing them before takeoff. And none of the listed safety reasons includes ejecting someone simply because they needed the seat.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)womanofthehills
(8,702 posts)Hey peeps, busy day here. I'm a bit behind on the news.
Has @united beaten the shit out of any paying customers today?
Thanks.
Cha
(297,184 posts)mn9driver
(4,425 posts)Until all passengers are in their seats and all carry on luggage is stowed. This is all considered "boarding".
Once the airplane leaves the gate, by definition there must be a seat for every person on board, so bumping would not be an issue.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Rule 21 clearly spells out the acceptable reasons for removing a seated passenger, and overbooking isn't one of them.
And when there is ambiguity in a contract, it is interpreted AGAINST whoever drafted the contract -- which is UA.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028919487
mn9driver
(4,425 posts)I've already explained that.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)the decision goes to the other side -- not the airline lawyers who drafted the contract.
Normal people won't interpret "denial of boarding" rules to apply to people who have already entered an airplane and taken their seats. So unless the contract specifically defines that term to include seated passengers -- which it doesn't -- then it doesn't matter what airline lawyers think when they used the term. It matters what PASSENGERS with common sense would think.
mn9driver
(4,425 posts)When it goes to court we will see who is correct.
JenniferJuniper
(4,512 posts)UA needs this gone with a confidential settlement asap.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)I read that he's in the hospital today still recovering from his injuries.
No doubt this won't go to court though -- United airlines would be even dumber than they seem to be if they don't settle.
Solomon
(12,310 posts)Give it up! I used to respect you but this case has really exposed you. Get a grip. They fucked up and it wasn't the victim's fault. It hurts me to watch you throw away your cred on this case. Didn't know you are such an authoritarian and so okay with fascism.
randome
(34,845 posts)...who squealed and thrashed about when the police told him to leave. I don't know what's so difficult about trying to fully understand the situation. The ticket conditions state that passengers can be evicted under certain circumstances. Sure, it's fine print and gobbldedegook but that's another conversation.
womanofthehills
(8,702 posts)He is still in the hospital.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It is indeed, bad form to "squeal and thrash" after being injured, you heroic manly-man-man.
And that your Freudian slip is showing so obviously only shows your divine fashion sense.
randome
(34,845 posts)The hyperbole on DU about this has been interesting, indeed.
1. "The man was beaten!" The video does not show that, imo. The officers are not making the shoulder movements of officers throwing punches. It shows them trying to pull the man from his seat.
2. "Look at the blood!" Again, the video shows Dr. Dao being pulled from his seat and his head striking the opposing row of seats. That is likely because he lost his grip on the seat and the officer's momentum was too much to stop.
3. "He was tased!" Not a single person on the airplane has said this. It is a DU rumor from start to finish.
4. "United violated their contract!" As mn9Driver points out, 'boarding' covers everything from sitting down in a seat to actual takeoff.
5. "He's a doctor!" So what?
6. "He probably has patients waiting for him!" Another DU rumor.
7. "United should have kept upping the bribe!" That's not how anything works in the real world.
8. "He paid for his ticket!" Pretty much for any contract for any purpose, a business or a customer can stop what they are doing if the transaction is not completed. Obviously the transaction was not complete in this case.
9. "United was giving preference to their employees over passengers!" Yeah. They were. They felt they had no choice due to the thousands of delays and canceled flights in the region. They could and should have had other means for seeing to their shortage.
10. Dr. Dao's odd reaction was a red flag to me. Now it turns out he has mental health issues. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028921188 Which means, additionally, that the police should have been prepared for this possibility and known how to react. Dao's reaction was not 'normal' so they should have immediately reassessed the situation.
11. The one thing in this entire incident that troubles me and that I have no ability to truly address is this: some of you have pointed out that refusing to obey the orders of a law enforcement official is no different from saying that it's a minority member's fault when he/she is gunned down in the street by a trigger-happy cop.
I am not a member of a minority and I have no explanation (some of you would say 'excuse') to put to this point. This is the one thing that 'haunts' me, for lack of a better word.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)did the officer refer to an actual law??
randome
(34,845 posts)You resist at your peril or if you think you have a solid foundational reason to do so. It doesn't appear that David Dao was thinking about his Constitutional privileges when he went into "screech mode".
The police aren't there to open an investigation into who has a more moral claim. They aren't the jury or judge. They are there to enforce airport security. If an airline says so-and-so is no longer a valid passenger, they enforce that decision. If a passenger says someone is harassing them, they would confront that harasser, as well.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)bagelsforbreakfast
(1,427 posts)"Someone pointed out that you may not be considered 'boarded' until the plane takes flight."
I imagine there will be no shortage of lawyers to explore that opinion...
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)manicdem
(388 posts)Instead of boarding the plane, it could refer to the boarding period or window from when they take your ticket to the time the doors close.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)So the conventional, common sense meaning would most likely apply in any court with a reasonable judge.
athena
(4,187 posts)Because that's how it is used in the contract.
Why are so many DUers trying so hard to twist this thing in United's favor?
SharonAnn
(13,772 posts)liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)mn9driver
(4,425 posts)It is the period between the first passenger proceeding down the jetway and when the aircraft first moves from the gate. Everything in between these two events is "boarding".
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Similar to getting a ship underway, as a public carrier.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)And when there is ambiguity in meaning -- which there is when a term isn't defined -- the law interprets it against the side who drafted a contract with the ambiguity.
mn9driver
(4,425 posts)The term "boarding" has had a very specific meaning across the industry for decades. A plaintiff lawyer will have their work cut out trying to convince a judge or jury that it should mean something different.
athena
(4,187 posts)i.e., the period during which people are boarding the plane. Note that there is a verb there: to board. The boarding period is the period during which passengers board the plane. When you refer to a passenger who has boarded a plane, you are referring to a passenger who is seated in his/her seat, not to a passenger who is already airborne. Note that the contract refers to denying passengers boarding. It does not refer to kicking people off the plane any time during the "boarding period".
To claim that "boarding" means "taking off", you must also believe that "re-accommodate" means "physical assault".
mn9driver
(4,425 posts)Your definition of the term is not the one used by the airline industry.
To say that a passenger is no longer subject to boarding rules once his butt has touched his seat is absurd. Good luck to whoever tries to take that argument to court.
They're supposed to give him a written statement of his rights. No indication that they did that.
I'm in Asia at the moment and this is getting huge news coverage, the feeling being he was discrimated against because he was Chinese.
On edit: Yes, I am aware the man is Vietnamese, but Japanese news--yesterday, at least--had him pegged as Chinese.
dalton99a
(81,468 posts)spinbaby
(15,089 posts)I just caught the morning news. My Japanese isn't great, but I can get the gist of it. No mention of Chinese this morning but the video is being shown over and over, they have an animation explaining what happened, another animation showing why this could never happen on a Japanese airline, and interviews with people who don't want to fly American Airlines, let alone United.
malaise
(268,967 posts)so he appears to be was ethnically Chinese even though he lived in Vietnam
dalton99a
(81,468 posts)Fuck United Airlines and their apologists.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)They did nothing wrong. United was not even involved.
athena
(4,187 posts)Welcome to ignore.
moonscape
(4,673 posts)been contacted by dozens of attorneys already!
lark
(23,097 posts)I hope he sues and wins at least a million dollars and makes United do a full page ad apologizing for breaking the law and mistreating badly a customer. That would be justice, IMO.
RamblingRose
(1,038 posts)you can count on Gorsuch and the other conservative justices to side with United
Ms. Toad
(34,069 posts)he wasn't denied boarding, yet everyone defending United kept citing the right to deny boarding provision.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...note the absence of discussion on the measure of damages for breach of contract.
There are other claims on the table, but if we're talking about the breach of contract claim, it's not as if there are going to be incidentals or specials.
Chemisse
(30,810 posts)They screwed up royally.
Shrek
(3,977 posts)Every paying passenger had a seat.
United wanted to make room for employees and not for other paying customers.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)they didnt follow the proper procedures for involuntary booking,including giving a written copy oif the passangers rights
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/11/opinions/i-got-bumped-from-a-flight-then-i-sued-opinion-stone/index.html
lindysalsagal
(20,679 posts)They should have left him and tried to remove someone else, or just given up and sent their people on another flight.
No one should be dragged against their will like that unless they're previously a danger to others. And he wasn't.
malaise
(268,967 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)I have spent the last 12 years of my life flying all over kingdom come and the worst fucking carriers are the ones based in the USA. Thank God for cell phones!!!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I know that's stupid, and I absolutely don't mean to defend United here, they suck, etc, but boarding isn't over when everyone is physically seated.
I think he will sue, and should sue, but the mechanism will need to be something else.
athena
(4,187 posts)So, even if United argued that there was some ambiguity in denied boarding based upon boarding priority and that it could possibly mean removal based upon a removal priority a court would be forced to rule against this interpretation because United drafted the contract.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Until the plane departs the gate, boarding is underway. That is universally true nationwide, carrier-wide.
athena
(4,187 posts)The plaintiff does, according to the law professor. Moreover, to the vast majority of people, boarding means what it sounds like. It does not mean taking off. In other words, someone who defines "re-accommodate" to mean physical assault does not get to define "boarding" to mean "taking off".
former9thward
(31,997 posts)The definition of boarding aside -- and I agree with the poster you replied to -- Dao refused an order from the flight crew. He broke two federal laws when he did that. You are not allowed to defy or question orders when aboard an aircraft. That is the law whether anyone likes it or not.
athena
(4,187 posts)And not any old law professor, but a "professor of public interest law at the George Washington University Law School"? Are you sure you didn't forget the sarcasm smilie?
If you're serious, please provide a reference. Which law, exactly, says that "you are not allowed to defy or question orders when aboard an aircraft"?
former9thward
(31,997 posts)Yes I do know the law better. 49 U.S. Code § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants. Its 20 years in prison.
athena
(4,187 posts)This law does not say that "you are not allowed to defy or question orders when aboard an aircraft". Dr. Dao did not assault or intimidate anyone. Quite the contrary: he was intimidated and assaulted. Moreover, he did not "interfere with the performance of the duties" of any crew member or attendant.
Fortunately, we do not (yet) live in a police state.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)You bolded one part of the law, which you address in your post but ignore the rest. Courts don't like it when you do that....
athena
(4,187 posts)I emphasized the part of the sentence you neglected. There is only one way to interpret that sentence, and it is not that you are sent to prison for questioning or refusing to obey any order given by the crew. Courts don't take sentences apart, ignore parts of them, and decide that the law says what they want it to say.
It's pretty bad when someone can't admit they were wrong. In this case, it's actually pretty funny.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)Have a nice day!
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)and necessary. If the flight crew told you weren't allowed to talk in a normal voice, you would not need to obey them unless there was a safety reason.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)With your brilliant knowledge of aircraft law. Under federal law its a dictatorship when you onboard an aircraft, like it or not. 49 U.S. Code § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46504
You've just implied that refusing to obey any order, however irrational, is "assaulting or intimidating" the crew. And that their "duties" can include ordering you to do anything they want.
No, it's not a "dictatorship". They run the aircraft, they don't have totalitarian power over the passengers. You are so obviously wrong, it's quite funny.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)You would be laughed out of court. I guess the " interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties" part means nothing to you. You can't pick and choose what parts of the law you like and just ignore the rest.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)So that , in "an individual on an aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States who, by assaulting or intimidating a flight crew member or flight attendant of the aircraft, interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties, or attempts or conspires to do such an act ..." the phrase that I've helpfully emboldened for you is extremely important. If assault or intimidation is not involved, then this does not apply at all.
Literally, it was you who wished to "pick and choose what parts of the law you like and just ignore the rest".
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)So if the flight crew tells you to gouge out your eyeballs, you must comply or be arrested?
Nah, the law only applies to LEGAL orders.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)They were in violation of their contract to carry the passenger.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)The contract is to move the passenger from one airport to another. That is it. You are not guaranteed a particular flight or seat no matter what you may have paid. You can't make up your own little individual "contract".
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)him off the plane, and FAA regulations required them to give a paying customer with a confirmed seat priority over an employee flying on a pass.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)I wish this case would go to court so all the internet experts would see what actually happens in actual court cases. Unfortunately this case will never see court because of PR.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)represent the doctor, so you probably won't believe the Chairman of the City of Chicago Committee that oversees the Aviation Department -- the department that employs the goons. But this is what he had to say:
http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/viral-video-kills-chance-aviation-security-officers-will-be-armed/
Viral video of a man being dragged off a United Airlines flight has virtually snuffed out any chance for city aviation security officers to be authorized to carry weapons, an influential alderman said Monday.
Ald. Mike Zalewski (23rd), chairman of the City Councils Aviation Committee, said Sundays embarrassing incident at OHare Airport was so poorly handled from A-to-Z that the officers have lost their argument to bear arms.
Zalewski said the aviation officer who is now on a leave of absence had no business getting involved in the incident, let alone boarding the flight from Chicago to Louisville.
It should have been handled by United, OHares flagship carrier, in the boarding area, before passengers ever boarded the flight, the alderman said.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)I do. If you want to go by what a Chicago alderman says, good luck. I do agree with the last sentence which is bolded but that is not what the present case is about.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Allowing the passenger to define what 'boarding' means is ridiculous.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)is in the act of boarding? Notice that the contract talks about denying boarding, or removal from the plane, as options (for an uncontrollable service animal). That indicates they see being on the plane as meaning you have boarded.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)then no passenger would be expected to know that the conventional definition of 'board' doesn't apply.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't think a lot of contracts define terms that the government defines for them.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)When I said 'wheels up', that was wrong. Boarding ends when the doors on the aircraft are shut. The contract doesn't need to define a common term.
Perform boarding services Perform in-flight services Perform deplaning services Provide passenger service resources
It provides directives, defines requirements and controls for the execution of those activities, and also checks that the execution is done in accordance with company polices and procedures and any required regulations for these activities. This activity also provides controls (on-line/off-line directives) to other process modules.
4.9.2 A2.2.2Perform Boarding Services. This function boards passengers and includes, but is not limited to, the following activities:
Check-in Security screening Screening for carry-on baggage Checking for intoxicated passengers, exit-row-seating compliance, and so forth Seating services before aircraft leaves the gate for takeoff
4.9.3 A2.2.3Perform In-Flight Services. This function serves passengers during the aircraft flight, such as:
Briefing passengers Controlling passengers during flight Storing of carry-on baggage Ensuring passenger regulatory compliance, i.e., Portable Electronic Devices (PED), smoking, and seat belt rules
42
This process starts at the departure airport after all the doors of the aircraft are secured for departure and ends at the destination airport before the doors of the aircraft are opened for passenger/cargo deplaning.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/maintenance_hf/library/documents/media/human_factors_maintenance/ar00-45.pdf
All too simple to go to FAA.GOV and search for the word 'boarding'. (United was a contributor to that FAA document.)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)they are seated. It says that seating them is part of boarding. But the passenger had been seated. He had boarded. What that document is about is the airline's processes, not what happens to a passenger.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)'Boarding' applies to the entire craft complement. All crew and passengers.
Stepping back from this incident, if they overbook a single seat and two people make it on to the plane, who wins? The person who sat first, because he or she 'is boarded'? That's not how the airlines resolve that problem.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)The contract is between the individual and the company, not the collective group of passengers.
That's why they have a boarding pass system in which someone stands at a gate, checking you have been assigned a seat number. As this man had been. If the airline assigns the same seat to 2 people, it's a fault in their system, and the airline would clearly be to blame.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Until the chair is on the plane, depending on the design of the chair, they may not be able to accommodate it. They can't know until they get it onboard and try. Not everything is caught/determined at the gate.
Indeed the airline would be to blame, but that does not resolve the immediate situation wherein there is two bodies and one seat. In the actual situation that just happened, the aircrew that needed to dead-head should have sat in the jump seats in the fore/aft galleys. Apparently that was beneath them. In the hypothetical, one of those two people is going to have to walk off the plane and accept whatever remediation the airline can offer.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)Has someone actually said there were available jump seats for the crew? If there were, then the United/Republic employees are themselves moronic and at fault.
If they have to test wheelchairs to know if they can accommodate them, then that's fine - that's a matter of safety, which always has to be a consideration. But that doesn't affect the definition of 'boarding' for another passenger.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)were treated. So, no, it's not just a hypothetical, i've witnessed it myself. Have you never seen it in the wild?
I suspect air crew (captain, co-pilot) will insist on a regular seat regardless, and point to some sort of policy as cover for that. Meaning, the customer does not come first. I have never seen an aircraft without at least 6 jump seats, if not more.
Boarding is boarding. I don't know how else to explain it. I would think the FAA's usage, being regulatory AND universal to the industry, would be acceptable as source definition for the meaning of 'boarding'. Your objection doesn't make sense.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)This is about when a passenger was taken out of the aircraft. That passenger had entered the aircraft and sat down - thus, he had boarded. The boarding process for the plane might not have completed, but it had for the passenger. You have not yet found an FAA usage of 'boarding' that applies to a person, not an airline process for an aircraft. In the absence of such a non-standard definition, we use the English language meaning.
No, I have never seen anyone removed from an aircraft - even for the reasons that are acknowledged as valid, eg being disruptive. But if they hand out the same seat to 2 people, they clearly have to do everything they can to hold up their end of the contracts. In this case, they didn't have a contract with the flight crew, so that should have been what they let slip - even if it meant they had to delay a flight the next day to complete their rest period. Or they should have offered passengers more money.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Boarding is not complete until ALL passengers and ALL carry-on cargo is in place and secure, and the doors close. Up until that point any number of boarding-related issues may occur, such as needing to de-plane a person in a wheelchair whose mobility device cannot be safely secured to the aircraft.
I have seen people removed from aircraft before, not often, and usually at less technically-ready airports. I've also had to be marched across the tarmac at SeaTac which should NEVER happen, if for no other reason than noise regulations and lack of hearing protection. Shit happens.
The difference here is, that wasn't shit, that was bullshit. It was NOT a security issue. The carrier made it a security issue, and security dealt with it the only way security knows how. Same reason we don't use the military for law enforcement. Security isn't customer service, and doesn't know how to incentivize a user off the plane.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)'Boarding' is something the passenger does. He or she boards. That's how it can talk about 'denying boarding' to an individual. They don't mean that no one at all will enter the aircraft. Your workflow is the "boarding process".
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You're wrong, and you'll see that plainly if it goes to court. The plaintiff will win damages, but not by the mechanism you're so concerned about.
So go ahead and just assume you're right based off the opinion of one 'legal expert', and have a nice day.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)and how he had already boarded, and that it's not about an aircraft's boarding process. For instance:
hhttp://www.natlawreview.com/article/united-airlines-dr-dao-and-contract-carriage
http://www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535
https://www.forbes.com/sites/omribenshahar/2017/04/14/david-dao-versus-united-what-does-the-airline-contract-say/
I suggest that by discussing it, we'll get a better understanding. You've shown that the 'boarding process' lasts until the doors are closed, but there's a good case that that is not what counts in the contract between an individual passenger and the airline.
WePurrsevere
(24,259 posts)of how 'they' define boarding goes against the commonly understood and accepted definition of boarding a plane meaning simply to get onto the airplane. So unless the meaning of the airlines jargon is clearly spelled out for passengers before hand, the legal default should be, and I suspect will be, to the commonly accepted dictionary definition, not the airlines insider jargon.
Most industries use jargon that's a bit unique to them but will often go over an outsiders heads. In this case it's not just going over someone's head, it would be using a common term in a way that's different enough that it's misleading to those not in on it.
If "boarding ends when the wheels leave the ground" than my airplane boarding pass should get me onto a plane that's already separating from the stairs/tunnel, taxiing down the runway or in the que for take off... but dollars to donuts it won't... nor should it.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Otherwise, the side who drafted the contract with an ambiguous term will have it interpreted against them.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)"denial of boarding" anywhere. If they didn't define it differently on the ticket, then the conventional meaning would apply -- someone would have "boarded" once they entered the aircraft and settled into their seat.
Here's the contract language on the tickets. Maybe you can find their special definition of boarding here:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)more regulated industry than air travel. The FAA uses these terms consistently.
Throughout FAA guidelines and literature, 'boarding' appears to end when the doors are shut, and in-flight begins at that point.
Perform boarding services
Perform in-flight services
Perform deplaning services
Provide passenger service resources
It provides directives, defines requirements and controls for the execution of those activities, and also checks that the execution is done in accordance with company polices and procedures and any required regulations for these activities. This activity also provides controls (on-line/off-line directives) to other process modules.
4.9.2 A2.2.2Perform Boarding Services. This function boards passengers and includes, but is not limited to, the following activities:
Check-in
Security screening
Screening for carry-on baggage
Checking for intoxicated passengers, exit-row-seating compliance, and so forth
Seating services before aircraft leaves the gate for takeoff
4.9.3 A2.2.3Perform In-Flight Services. This function serves passengers during the aircraft flight, such as:
Briefing passengers
Controlling passengers during flight
Storing of carry-on baggage
Ensuring passenger regulatory compliance, i.e., Portable Electronic Devices (PED), smoking, and seat belt rules
42
This process starts at the departure airport after all the doors of the aircraft are secured for departure and ends at the destination airport before the doors of the aircraft are opened for passenger/cargo deplaning.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/maintenance_hf/library/documents/media/human_factors_maintenance/ar00-45.pdf
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)have agreed to. Passengers can't be expected to read everything the FAA has ever put out, in case there is something relevant to their ticket.
Here is more information from a law professor at George Washington:
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/united-cites-wrong-rule-for-illegally-de-boarding-passenger/
But that rule, as its title and history clearly establish, applies only if an airline wishes to deny boarding to a passenger, not to remove a passenger who has already boarded an airplane.
The current federal rule grew out of a situation in which Ralph Nader was denied the opportunity to board a flight, even though he had a valid ticket. He sued, in a case which went to the U.S. Supreme Court, and it was eventually held that he was entitled to compensation if he was denied boarding.
As a direct result, the government adopted a rule which permits a carrier to deny boarding to a ticketed passenger, but only after going through a process of seeking other passengers to give up their seats.
Uniteds Rule 25, as its title clearly implies, applies only to denied boarding. Thus, it uses the word denied boarding, and variants such as deny boarding, but says nothing about requiring passengers who have already boarded to give up their seats.
SNIP
Clearly, a boarding priority does not include or imply an involuntary removal or refusal of transport. Moreover, under well accepted contract law, any ambiguous term in a contract must be construed against and in the way least favorable to the party which drafted it.
So, even if United argued that there was some ambiguity in denied boarding based upon boarding priority and that it could possibly mean removal based upon a removal priority a court would be forced to rule against this interpretation because United drafted the contract.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That same contract spells out boarding for mobility devices/chairs and how they must be secured and that may not be determined until the device has 'boarded' the aircraft and is discovered cannot be secured to the PARTICULAR plane/interior package.
United has not bothered to define Boarding nor Flight here, and PRESUMABLY, there's no 'no man's land' between physically boarding the plane, and the plane actually taking aerodynamic flight, where the service animal can misbehave and STILL BE REMOVED FROM THE PLANE.
'Deny Boarding' is sufficient to cover up to the moment the doors are secured.
There is no ambiguity, except in your 'legal expert's' use of 'boarding' to mean only physically walking onto the plane and sitting down.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)include the special meaning -- or the plain English meaning would apply.
Here is the plain English meaning:
21.
to go on board of or enter (a ship, train, etc.).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That seems unworkable to me.
Contracts are fucking wall-of-text enough as it is, without spending time defining every 10th common-use industry standard word.
I was totally wrong earlier about it extending to cover taxiing up to the point of takeoff. My bad. But 'until the doors close' makes total sense. If there's not enough room for all the carry-on baggage, everyone could be seated already, but the carrier must still be confronted with a safety issue that prevents flight if NO ONE on the plane wants to check a bag, or take another flight. Boarding is more than sitting down in a seat, it includes things like stowing the passenger's luggage too. There's no distinct luggage 'stowing' phase between boarding, and takeoff.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)unworkable to expect a passenger to be responsible not only for the terms of his actual contract, but for all the internal communications of the FAA that might be relevant.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)In some cases anyway. Both certainly exist.
I don't think your position will hold in court, but I'm skeptical that it will be fully tested, because United is likely to settle, or rather, United AND the airport security are likely to settle with the victim.
(I do feel the need to point out, just because I disagree with this suspected violation of the contract, does not mean I don't think the victim is entitled to compensation for this boondoggle. He is. And I think he will prevail in court. I just disagree about the mechanism by which it will be decided.)
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)spooky3
(34,444 posts)Their legal knowledge simply by watching Judge Judy.
She arbitrated a case where a roofer claimed that the terminology he used (I think it was "re-roof" was understood throughout the industry to mean putting a new roof on top of an existing one. But the plaintiffs, his customers, thought he would tear off the old roof first, then construct the new one. She used exactly the same reasoning in telling the roofer that he was wrong--that where a term could reasonably mean something different to a layperson than what he believes the industry to intend, it was his responsibility to spell out exactly what the term meant.
Obviously we know she's not a Supreme Court Justice and TV is not a real courtroom. The point is this principle is exactly the same as you described it, with a great source--and she is a trained attorney and was "real" judge for a long time, so she probably wasn't hallucinating the concept.
hooptie
(25 posts)Then why does your quoted text specifically say "... will be denied boarding or removed from the flight..."
Why the need to add "or removed from the flight" if "denied boarding" covers removing people who have already gotten on the aircraft and taken their seats, but who apparently have not yet boarded the aircraft? Are they really going to open the doors and throw a service dog onto the tarmac? Or out of the plane at FL320?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If someone's service animal has decided that latching onto people's faces mid-flight is the thing to be doing, they will emergency divert and land to de-plane the animal and it's human.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)It ends several minutes prior to pushing away from the gate. Everyone is onboard and luggage is stowed, boarding is over and we are just waiting to shift to engine power and get towed out for taxiing.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)The person has boarded once she has entered the craft and taken her seat.
This is from an article by the Dean of Cornell university's law school:
http://www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535
In truth, airlines do indeed bump passengers from oversold flights, but the process by which they do so is to deny boarding to ticketed passengers who have otherwise complied with the boarding requirements. However, Dao was not denied boarding. Dao was granted boarding, and then subsequently involuntarily deplaned, which is not the same thing.
SNIP
One might argue that Dao had not completed boarding until the cabin door was closed. This argument would be wrong. The term boarding is not defined in the definition section of the contract, and absent an explicit definition in the contract, terms are to be afforded their plain meaning.
Boarding means that the passenger presents a boarding pass to the gate agent who accepts or scans the pass and permits entry through the gate to the airplane, allowing the passenger to enter the aircraft and take a seat.
It is possible in this regard to distinguish between the collective completion of the planes boarding process, which is not complete until all passengers have boarded and the cabin door is closed. But that is different from each passengers boarding, which is complete for each individual once he or she has been accepted for transportation by the gate agent and proceeded to the aircraft and taken his or her assigned seat.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I commented to someone claiming that boarding ends when the plane takes off with a comment "Boarding ends several minutes prior to pushing away from the gate. nt". Which is entirely accurate as all customers are seated by that time. And then you replied with a response that initially made me think you were one of the United Suck ups until I saw your OP today.
Just admit you read my post wrong.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)It said:
It ends several minutes prior to pushing away from the gate. Everyone is onboard and luggage is stowed, boarding is over and we are just waiting to shift to engine power and get towed out for taxiing.
And that post you wrote was in response to this post of mine:
"denial of boarding" anywhere. If they didn't define it differently on the ticket, then the conventional meaning would apply -- someone would have "boarded" once they entered the aircraft and settled into their seat.
Here's the contract language on the tickets. Maybe you can find their special definition of boarding here:
I replied to your post 147 that that wasn't the plain language definition of boarding for an individual -- which is what is relevant here.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Boarding ends once the person is on board (I.E. on plane), and everyone is on board several minutes (usually) before the plane departs the gate. So the phrase "boarding ends several minutes prior to leaving the gate" isn't wrong.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)to excuse UA's actions.
They have been defining boarding as only completed once EVERYONE has boarded and the doors are closed. So they use that definition to say that the doctor was merely denied boarding, which is allowed when there is overbooking.
But what is relevant in this case is when an individual has boarded -- once that person has entered the plane and taken his seat, then he has completed his boarding. That person may only be removed under very limited circumstances that do not include overbooking or the airline needing a seat.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I was just annoyed that I got the response you gave about Contracts when I was just making a dismissive comment to a "boarding ends onm wheels up" comment. Much of the early debate on this was authoritarian nightmare.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Anyway, we're on the same page about this now.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts) Check-in
Security screening
Screening for carry-on baggage
Checking for intoxicated passengers, exit-row-seating compliance, and so forth
Seating services before aircraft leaves the gate for takeoff
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/maintenance_hf/library/documents/media/human_factors_maintenance/ar00-45.pdf
Emphasis mine. I did exceed the definition when I specified 'wheels up'. Apparently taxiing away from the gate is the demarcation point.
Alaska Air and United contributed to that FAA doc, but if you poke around on their site, the term is commonly defined in many places.
flying-skeleton
(696 posts)The BIG companies can not get away with behavior like this.
They need to be HURT where it counts the most ....... in their Pocket Book ..... BIGLY !!
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Consumers have zero negotiating power in these forced terms. It's not a contract in the historical sense, because it's not negotiated. United could write whatever they want in there. That's not an agreement, it's a dictate.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)They will be writing a very large check in the very near future. It will be a settlement, no trial, and the Dr. will probably be restricted from discussing it as one of the terms of the settlement.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)names and shit?
There's a couple viewpoints here, and some people are going to rat-hole on technicalities, and that's all good and fine without calling people 'shills' for X or Y.
Thanks, and have a great day!
spooky3
(34,444 posts)Talking with students about what a disastrous incident this was for years to come.
Heck of a job, United.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)"Please fasten your seatbelts and prepare for boarding."
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And as I read it that rule only applies in that case.
athena
(4,187 posts)in the first place.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)Please indicate the wording in the contract that gives United the right to remove passengers who have a paid and reserved seat in order to fly their own staff instead.
Or is your argument that United is a powerful corporation, and we Americans worship large corporations and love to bow down before authority?
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)to seat their employees is not one of them. They're all to do with safety.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's my point: you have fewer contractual rights in that situation.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)in order to accommodate another flight crew.
To the contrary, FAA regs require that paying customers with confirmed reservations be given priority over non-paying employees of the airlines.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And since it's not one of the ones listed, the protections in Rules 21 and 25 don't apply.
Also, United wasn't operating the flight.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)that give priority to paying customers over airline employees flying on passes.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)For starters, neither party executed it. Also, the flight wasn't operated by United (and in fact a plane's livery means almost nothing nowadays), so even if it were a contract, the operating airline wasn't a party to it.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Contract of Carriage Document
(revised February 17, 2017)
Transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by United Airlines, Inc. and Carriers doing business as United Express, are subject to the following terms and conditions, in addition to any terms and conditions printed on or in any ticket, ticket jacket or eticket receipt. To the extent there is a conflict between this Contract of Carriage and any terms and conditions printed on or in any ticket, ticket jacket or eticket receipt, this Contract governs. By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the passenger agrees to be bound by these controlling terms of this Contract of Carriage, and no covenants at law or in equity shall be implied or incorporated. Note, only the English version of Uniteds Contract of Carriage governs the transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by United Airlines, Inc. and Carriers doing business as United Express.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Do you see Republic Airline mentioned in there?
And, no, it's just not in any way legally a contract.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)United Express's Contract of Carriage applies to all the partner airlines.
https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/AboutUnited/Pages/UnitedExpressPartners.aspx
You can earn and use miles on United Express flights just as you do on other United flights.
Cape Air CommutAir ExpressJet GoJet Airlines Mesa Airlines Republic Airways A Republic Airways Company SkyWest Airlines Trans States Airlines
athena
(4,187 posts)United can remove passengers with paid and reserved seats in order to make space for its own employees, and yet you continue to insist that United has contractual rights to do so?
Where does this right come from? What is it based on? That it's a large company and can therefore do as it pleases?
It's amazing to me that there are people here who will make a false statement, fail to back it up, and yet continue to make the same, unsubstantiated statement to others. Do you seriously think we're that stupid? Don't you realize that you're just wasting your time?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You're saying the same thing as me: this wasn't a removal provided for by the Contract of Carriage. They don't need to follow the Contract of Carriage. It's not actually a contract (hint: it's not executed by either party).
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)"RULE 3 APPLICATION OF CONTRACT
These rules constitute the conditions of carriage upon which UA agrees to provide Domestic and International Carriage and are expressly agreed to by the Passenger. These Rules are also the tariffs filed by UA in accordance with certain government regulations.
This Contract of Carriage is subject to applicable laws, regulations, rules, and security directives imposed by governmental agencies, including but not limited to those imposed during or as a result of a national emergency, war, civil unrest or terrorist activities. In the event of a conflict between the Rules contained herein and such government laws, regulations, rules, security directives and their corresponding effects on UAs operation, the latter shall prevail.
The rules herein are applicable to transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by UA. See Rule 18 regarding application of these rules to Codeshare services provided by UA on flights operated by a carrier other than UA.
Certain International Carriage is subject to the rules relating to liability established by, and to all other provisions of the Warsaw and/or Montreal Conventions. Any provisions of these rules that are inconsistent with any provision of the applicable Convention shall, to that extent, but only to that extent, be inapplicable to International Carriage.
Except as otherwise provided within specific fare rules, transportation is subject to the Contract of Carriage and charges in effect on the date on which the Ticket is issued. References to pages, rules, items and notes are coterminous and include revisions, supplements and reissues thereof."
So, unless they wrote something else on the ticket or elsewhere, "transportation is subject to the Contract of Carriage". Giving themselves the right to forcibly remove paying customers because they feel like it (because they screwed up the locations of their crew for other flights) is not something they can just assume they have the right to do.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)And the same Contract of Carriage applies to the airlines in United Express as to United Airlines.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)purchase the ticket. (Don't you remember checking off the box accepting the terms when you get a ticket online? That's you, agreeing to the contract.)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Same thing with software click-through "licenses", which aren't even licenses legally.
A contract of carriage is closer to an SLA or something.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)with the airline, by accepting the terms and paying money for the ticket.
https://www.airhelp.com/en/blog/the-legal-agreement-airlines-dont-want-you-to-know-about-519/
The Legal Agreement Airlines Dont Want You to Know About
Date:May 18, 2015 AuthorAda Kozłowska
Did you know that every time you purchase airline tickets, youre entering into a contract with the airline? More specifically, one that requires them to offer a certain set of benefits in various circumstances?
I didnt, at least not before I worked for AirHelp.
I guess you could say its common sense: any time you enter into a purchase, youre entering into a contract with the seller. But whats interesting, in this case is that the contract of carriage points out that air travelers have rights they might not even know about.
SNIP
Why Its Important to Understand How to Read a Contract of Carriage
Airlines contracts of carriage arent just for the frequent travelers or the savviest legal minds theyre for all of us. If youre purchasing plane tickets, you should know how to read an airlines contract of carriage. If youre planning on flying anywhere in the future, you should know how to navigate an airlines contract of carriage. These are your rights and until airlines get better at transparently extending those rights to passengers, its up to us to be aware of them.
Ahpook
(2,750 posts)My mother and her boyfriend fly from Mexico back home constantly on United. They have a layover in Houston and that particular flight is NEVER on time. Anywhere from 2 to 12 hours late every single time.
They flew in a couple weeks ago and were delayed 8 fucking hours. The excuse this time was they had no pilots that could fly due to overtime. Right! Customers have to wait because they screwed up their schedules?
They are avoiding United at all costs