Dr. Dao's Past Has Nothing to Do with What Happened to Him, FFS!

[MineralMan]

Story after story is being published about the background of the man who was dragged off a United Airlines plane so a United employee could have his seat on that flight. All of those stories are completely irrelevant to what happened.

Dr. Dao was doing none of those things while sitting on that plane. He was not dispensing drugs or engaging in any of the activities being written about in those stories. He was simply a paid passenger, sitting in a window seat, waiting for the plane to taxi out and take off. His past is in no way relevant to his treatment by United Airlines and the Chicago Airport Police.

Those stories are nothing more than attempts at victim-blaming. That they are appearing here on DU as some sort of explanation of why it might be alright to bloody that man's face and perhaps break his jaw is just plain wrong.

Again, Dr. Dao's past is completely irrelevant to the events that took place on that aircraft. There is no point to those stories, other than to denigrate a victim.

[mcar]

1. It is irrelevant

Shame on those who bring it up.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, exactly!

[BlueCaliDem]

30. Hear! Hear! Some are so indoctrinated that corporations can do NO wrong that they automatically

resort to victim-blaming in order to protect said corporation.

Disgusting.

[mcar]

34. And now we are seeing (Twitter) that United/media

got the victim mixed up with another Asian doctor.

[Hugin]

2. Presumably, he had been convicted and served whatever punishment was passed down.

So, it's worse than victim blaming... He served his time, man. For them to bring a previous conviction up was an additional crime.

[MineralMan]

3. Yes, and he's back practicing medicine.

I do not understand how anyone could think that his past has any relevance whatever to what happened. Victim-blaming sucks!

[dalton99a]

6. It seems the only way to be "fair and balanced" to United is to smear the victim

Good ol' Faux News technique, seen on DU for the nth time

[MineralMan]

8. I suppose so. I hate to see such things publicized on DU.

[athena]

9. First they said he was lying about being a doctor.

When it turned out he really was a doctor, they had to dig into his past and find something they could criticize him with. How many of us are so pure and innocent that we could survive such scrutiny? I have never committed a crime; I have never even received a parking ticket or a speeding ticket, but I've had disagreements with disgruntled and jealous colleagues, and a determined journalist could easily find two or three people who would argue, falsely but convincingly, that I have anger management issues. I've also suffered on and off from depression and anxiety over the years. Seriously, how many of us could stand up to that sort of intrusive analysis of our past? Does that mean we all deserve to be physically assaulted the moment we object to unfair behavior?

If we are going to start digging into people's pasts, what's more interesting and relevant is the past of the cop who assaulted the poor man, as well as the United employees who called the cops on him in the first place. I wonder what kinds of mental troubles they have been suffering from. Do they have anger management issues? Any record of spousal abuse? If they've been divorced, has anyone tried to talk to their exes to find out whether they have always had authoritative tendencies? Did the airport and United bother to check any of this when they chose to hire these people?

This is no different than scrutinizing the past of a rape victim to lay the blame on her, and not even bothering to look into the past of the rapist.

[MineralMan]

11. Yes. Exactly. Victim Blaming Is Never Justified.

Period. I hate that this sort of thing gets any space on DU. I'm not sure what the cause of it is, but it's simply wrong.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. If you don't commit at least one felony by lunchtime, I just don't know what you're doing with your

life.

[dalton99a]

5. It is despicable to normalize what happened.

[MineralMan]

7. It is. Nobody at that airport had any knowlege

of Dr. Dao, nor of his past. That had nothing to do with the terrible decisions made by United and the Chicago Airport Police. The airline had other options available to it for transporting those four employees. They had options about how to convince passengers to give up their seats.

The police should have questioned why the man had to be removed from the plane. He was just sitting there quietly, waiting for the plane to take him to his destination. Why did the police not inquire into why he had to be removed and then say, "That is a matter for your airline to deal with. It is not our job to enforce your policies about passenger bumping. Goodbye!"

Dr. Dao was just a paid passenger on the plane. Nothing more than that. His past was unknown to anyone involved. It played no role in what happened. It should also play no role in our discussion of what happened, in my opinion.

[dalton99a]

10. Precisely.

But they're trying to taint the jury pool (IF the case ever goes to trial). I'm surprised they didn't call for his deportation like Ann Coulter did.

[treestar]

32. She's a moron. He's probably a citizen.

[randome]

12. Sure it does. It means the police should have been trained to deal with the mentally ill.

Dr. Dao has mental and anger issues: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028921188

I disagree it is 'victim blaming' to have the truth in front of us. Dr. Dao's reaction was, to say the least, bizarre. Once the police noted this, they should have paused and immediately reassessed the situation.
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[MineralMan]

13. His reaction was bizarre? In what way?

He refused to give up his seat. I might have done the same thing, given the reason the airline wanted that seat. He was not behaving in any strange way. He simply said no.

[randome]

14. His 'screeching and flailing about'. The man has documented mental & anger issues.

The police should have been trained to deal with this possibility.
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[MineralMan]

15. None of that happened until they were dragging him

out of his seat. Further, it appears that the person with that past may not actually even be the man on the plane.

Again, Dr. Dao's past is irrelevant to what happened. Completely.

[randome]

19. And they only forcibly removed him because he refused the order to leave.

As I've stated elsewhere, the idea that a minority member might react with suspicion and even fear when confronted by police is better understood.

But being forcibly removed from a plane happens in airports around the world and there are few instances where a passenger reacts the way he did.

Still, wouldn't it be a 'hoot' if we're all talking about the wrong Dr. Dao? His past is relevant, as I said, only to how the police should have been better trained to deal with him.
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[Kentonio]

26. Airports around the world? Do you have some examples?

Because the only time I've ever heard of someone being forceable removed from a plane in Europe is if they are drunk and/or violent.

[randome]

31. I don't have research to support this and Google leads with 100s of Dr. Dao references for now.

Here is one about weight limits: http://abc7chicago.com/news/passengers-kicked-off-airline-due-to-weight-limit/1220972/

And here is one about 40,000 passengers being bumped last year in America alone: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/United-Forcibly-Removed-Man-Highlights-Overbooking-Policy-419052804.html

So...it happens is all I can say with any confidence.
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[Kentonio]

35. Yeah it definitely happens

But I think the forceable removal is much more of an American thing than a world wide thing. There seems to be an acceptance of law enforcement using violence that other countries citizens just wouldn't tolerate.

[FBaggins]

40. It definitely happens globally

It just isn't going to get any coverage here if some passenger is removed from a flight in Poland.

There seems to be an acceptance of law enforcement using violence that other countries citizens just wouldn't tolerate.

Just the opposite. In most countries, a police officer telling you to get off of the plane would be met with acceptance that you had to get off of the plane. That doesn't mean that excessive violence is acceptable anywhere... but it's marginally less likely when no excuse for violence is given.

[Kentonio]

53. Maybe Poland is one of those places, like several of the Eastern European countries

Where police violence is still a major issue, but I know for a fact that in Western Europe a police officer using violence is seen as a completely unacceptable thing unless there is an imminent danger to themselves or the public. There is much, MUCH less of this idea that if a police officer tells you something, you have to immediately comply and if you don't its acceptable to be forceable restrained.

Their police forces undergo radically different training than American law enforcement. Dialogue and de-escalation are emphasized at all times, with violence an absolute last resort.

[randome]

43. What you said sounds likely.

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[MannyRomero]

86. How to cry foul

When your civil rights are violate make sure when they drag you off you go kicking and screaming for all to hear and see

[treestar]

33. I see what you mean, but the cops did not

know his past. They could only go on what they saw.

[randome]

39. Sure, but they could have been better trained to RECOGNIZE signs of mental illness.

Or at least have an alarm go off in their heads that said something like, "Wait a sec! Is this guy mentally ill? Maybe we should reassess."

As soon as they tried to pull him out, he began screeching and flailing about. That should have been the red flag that made everyone pause. On the other hand, police are not "dedicated fighters", no matter what some think. At least I would think that's the case in airports rather than on the street. Making the decision to use force is not something they look forward to (again, no matter what some would prefer to believe). So once that decision was made, it was maybe difficult to put back in its bottle.
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[yardwork]

48. Wrong. That is flat out wrong.

[randome]

56. Actually, we don't know what occurred before the video commenced.

We have a narrow viewpoint and a narrow point of time. We don't know if the police tried to talk him out of his seat beforehand. I'm guessing they did because it doesn't look to me like they were doing anything worse than pulling him away.

I'm no video forensics expert but that's what it looks like to me.
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[yardwork]

45. It's clear that you have not watched the videos.

[pnwmom]

84. He was resisting an improper removal that wasn't allowed under the contract on the ticket. n/t

[MannyRomero]

93. Your only weapon is your voice

When your civil rights are violated make sure when they drag you off you go kicking and screaming for all to hear and see.
Man broke no laws nor violated any policy and after his insistence they should have moved on. Instead they restrained him as if he was under arrest and manhandled him as if he was resisting an arrest
At that point the WORST thing he could have done was go quietly and meekly
But Randome here with his entitled opinion thinks we should cave to corporate abuse
- In a democracy your voice is your only weapon-

[randome]

94. Sure, but his civil rights are/were not an issue. The issue is and was UA's right to refuse passage.

They can refuse passage for any reason they want. In this case, they decided it was worth 4 pissed-off passengers to get their 4 employees to Louisville on time to help deal with the cascading delays and cancellations. In retrospect, however...
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[KittyWampus]

17. His reaction didn't happen until he was assaulted. Further,

law enforcement is SUPPOSED to know how to deal with people peacefully.

Your repeated defense of the indefensible is disgusting.

[randome]

18. Um, you just repeated what I posted.

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[KittyWampus]

20. No, I didn't. His reaction was PROVOKED by violence from law enforcement.

Law enforcement in other countries manage to handle situations without beating them.

United and Law Enforcement both acted inappropriately and created the situation.

Your need to accept authoritarians beating people up is disturbing.

[randome]

21. He wasn't beaten. He was forcibly removed and hit his head on the opposing row of seats.

The hyperbole on DU has been...interesting.

1. "The man was beaten!" The video does not show that, imo. The officers are not making the shoulder movements of officers throwing punches. It shows them trying to pull the man from his seat.

2. "Look at the blood!" Again, the video shows Dr. Dao being pulled from his seat and his head striking the opposing row of seats. That is likely because he lost his grip on the seat and the officer's momentum was too much to stop.

3. "He was tased!" Not a single person on the airplane has said this. It is a DU rumor from start to finish.

4. "United violated their contract!" As mn9Driver points out, 'boarding' covers everything from sitting down in a seat to actual takeoff.

5. "He's a doctor!" So what?

6. "He probably has patients waiting for him!" Another DU rumor.

7. "United should have kept upping the bribe!" That's not how anything works in the real world.

8. "He paid for his ticket!" Pretty much for any contract for any purpose, a business or a customer can stop what they are doing if the transaction is not completed. Obviously the transaction was not complete in this case.

9. "United was giving preference to their employees over passengers!" Yeah. They were. They felt they had no choice due to the thousands of delays and canceled flights in the region. They could and should have had other means for seeing to their shortage.

10. Dr. Dao's odd reaction was a red flag to me. Now it turns out he has mental health issues. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028921188 Which means, additionally, that the police should have been prepared for this possibility and known how to react. Dao's reaction was not 'normal' so they should have immediately reassessed the situation.

11. The one thing in this entire incident that troubles me and that I have no ability to truly address is this: some of you have pointed out that refusing to obey the orders of a law enforcement official is no different from saying that it's a minority member's fault when he/she is gunned down in the street by a trigger-happy cop.

I am not a member of a minority and I have no explanation (some of you would say 'excuse') to put to this point. This is the one thing that 'haunts' me, for lack of a better word.
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[Foamfollower]

44. I'd call it a beating.

And you have the wrong David Dao in your thuggifying:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html

Oh, and Rule 25 of United Airlines Carriage Contract is no longer in effect once a passenger is boarded, so they violated their contract with the good doctor.

[randome]

49. It's very possible we all have the wrong David Dao.

Which goes to my central point (and one I am equally guilty of today) that we should NEVER take anything at face value until we have verification and secondary sourcing.
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[Foamfollower]

54. Well one thing is an absolute undeniable fact.

You can only be involuntarily denied boarding under the United Airlines Contract of Carriage. The doctor had boarded, so Rule 25 could no longer be enforced. Ergo, United Airlines violated their contract with the doctor:

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25

[randome]

59. See my points 4 and 8 above. I don't think that's the case.

I am not trying to defend UA, just going where I think the facts lead. If it was as easy to cry "violation!" as you state, then passengers could sue for a canceled flight due to mechanical malfunction once they had physically boarded. That has never happened, so far as I know.
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[AtheistCrusader]

60. Boarding is not completed until the doors are closed.

4.9.2 A2.2.2—Perform Boarding Services. This function boards passengers and includes, but is not limited to, the following activities:

• Check-in • Security screening • Screening for carry-on baggage • Checking for intoxicated passengers, exit-row-seating compliance, and so forth • Seating services before aircraft leaves the gate for takeoff

4.9.3 A2.2.3—Perform In-Flight Services. This function serves passengers during the aircraft flight, such as:

• Briefing passengers • Controlling passengers during flight • Storing of carry-on baggage • Ensuring passenger regulatory compliance, i.e., Portable Electronic Device’s (PED), smoking, and seat belt rules


42
This process starts at the departure airport after all the doors of the aircraft are secured for departure and ends at the destination airport before the doors of the aircraft are opened for passenger/cargo deplaning.

Boarding ends and in-flight begins when the doors are shut for departure from the gate. The contract does not need to spell out an industry term, unless it is using the term in some other non-industry standard way.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/maintenance_hf/library/documents/media/human_factors_maintenance/ar00-45.pdf
United contributed to that document, among other carriers, but it is a FAA document, and there's plenty more if you search about their site.

[randome]

98. We may STILL have the wrong identity for this passenger.

We've all gone off half-cocked (it's the Internet (and DU) so that's the norm) without waiting for any secondary verification of anything.

But personally (objectively), I don't consider it a 'beating' if someone hitting his head on another seat was not the objective. And I see no reason to think it was.
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[MannyRomero]

96. Empathy and Psychopaths

So Randome, you some troll in the bag for United?... or maybe you work directly for United cuz you All over this board telling everybody they are wrong for their empathetic and visceral reaction to the video of a man, any man, an ordinary man from what we see in the video trying to stand up to what he feels is an injustice, after breaking no laws not violating no policies, being abused, manhandled assaulted knocked delirious bloodied and dragged down the aisle like a sack of grain before a fully loaded plane, then to be seen with blood streaming down his face. And mind you from both angles we see the man throw NOT ONE punch or push back or put is hands on the officers.

This is what nearly a billion people have seen and is to what they are reacting

Now if you didn't have a gut wrenching reaction to the treatment of this man or the fact these people could act with such impunity they could do this to ANYONE, then you have no empathy, no feelings for the pain of others.

Some call it soulless, I call it being a Psychopath, a borderline personality disorder Psychopath

That you are flailing around wasting space digging into irrelevant "back facts" and engaging in specious arguments to justify your opinion is all the proof I need to see you are a Psychopath

Where the airline went wrong is they didn't offer enough. In a free market economy the market dictates current values. Obviously the market was saying the compensation for THEIR seat was insufficient. So why not keep offering until that value is reached instead of stopping right there, drawing a line and holding it by bringing out the goon squad.

Did it turn out more efficient and econmical? Did the 4 crew trying to dedad-head to KY make their flight on time after the 3 hour delay needed to clean up all the blood?

Everything after that is irrelevant.

And the fact that this has blown up so much, with comment boards numbering in thousands, several 10,000 or more entries with people empathizing with this man and denouncing United to the tune of a 1 billion dollar stock drop shows the "market" has indicated where it stands on this issue.

Chinese you tube has had 550 MILLION views and half of that came after it was revealed he was Vietnamese, and safe to say the entire Asian diaspora is outraged

So for you to say the overwhelmingly majority of the public speaking out, reacting in disgust brought on by their empathy, are wrong in saying this is wrong, is to show you for what you are... either a troll working for UAL, a troll being contrarian looking to get a rise or truly a hateful Psychopath with not only no empathy for a man brutalized but with aims to blame HIM for the way he was treated

You could be one of the first two, or the last, but I believe one or the other AND the last.

Now go look in the mirror and try to understand what in your life made you so uncaring for another sufferings

[randome]

97. Edit your post, Manny, before someone (not me) alerts on you.

I listed my points. Care to dispute them? Internet views are not fact-based and certainly lack objectivity.

And no, I do not work for the airline industry in any capacity. I'm an IT developer working for a university.
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[MannyRomero]

107. You have my permission

Go ahead and alert me. Your post was filled with opinion and conjecture but you put yourself as some self-appointed moral arbiter and now you threaten me. OK

The authority to put their hands and restrain someone comes from who? If you are claiming it is a policy practiced all along, then that is a violation of rights and it needs to be made a law that this must be changed and hopefully Dr. Dao is that agent of change

And they were not sworn officers or agents. They were "security personnel " no more than night club bouncers in $10 T Shirts and dirty jeans at their day job, only this one allowed handcuffs and batons, or so it seemed.

They way you went almost obsessively through twists and fits in all your comments parsing every detail to where you felt to employ bullet points to pin the actions Dr Dao, whatever they were, as somehow responsible for the assault and battery and severe physical harm the world has witnessed on those vidoeos, leaves me just as outraged at you as I was when I viewed the videos.

Did I call you a psychopath? I apologize.

People who have no empathy appear to be pyschopaths, as you appear in this case to have none, and as well, appear to be.

Yes that is harsh and I thought so in my original which is why I gave you the benefit of the doubt thinking nobody could be so egregiously callous and assumed you might be under the employ of someone with an interest and were just doing your job

Frankly in this free market economy I find the 2nd explanation more palatable and would actually applaud you for a job well done

That is the only issue I have cared to further discuss as the rest of your arguments are specious and I would rather not waste my time chasing your opinon

[MannyRomero]

108. p.s.

Randome, it is now 5 days and everyone has had a chance to ring in and taking a sampling most other comment pages and message boards seem to mirror this one in their cumulative opinion

The result is you are in the extreme extreme minority in your opinion on this. Almost EVERYONE favors showing sympathy and empathy toward the victim, you know healthy normal human responses, and express disgust and outrage at the airline's actions, again healthy normal human responses

How much more do you need?

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Plus 1000000

[Denzil_DC]

23. If I were you, I'd check that you have the right Dao there. n/t

[randome]

24. With that recent information, I am no longer certain about anything I've said.

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[Denzil_DC]

29. Then I suggest we disregard all that supposed "background" for now.

I just imagine if my wife or I were in that situation and for whatever reason decided we weren't going to go just along with being arbitrarily bumped at a moment's notice.

Would they have dragged us very awkwardly out of the seat, bounced a head or two off another passenger's seat with some force (presumably narrowly missing injuring the other passenger as well), and hauled us yelling along the gangway with our upper clothes around our ears? It looked dangerous for the bruisers doing the wrestling and dragging and for other passengers, never mind the poor guy subjected to it.

On the rare occasions where someone has to be removed in that way, you'd think there'd be training to avoid injury to anyone, and not least in a degree of diplomacy and persuasion and sensitivity.

It was assault, I don't give a stuff what Dao may or may not have done in this past or how uncooperative he was being.

[randome]

36. I have a fairly common name (not 'John Smith') and have been confused with others before.

Once on my credit report and several times at different workplaces.

But there were more than 40,000 passengers removed from American flights last year. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/United-Forcibly-Removed-Man-Highlights-Overbooking-Policy-419052804.html

It happens. I seriously doubt that 'assault' would stand up anywhere since the police were forcibly removing a passenger -lawfully, I might add- and he hit his head on the opposing row of seats.

But yes, as I've stated elsewhere, the police should have been better trained to handle this type of situation without resorting to violence.
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[Denzil_DC]

62. I think the concept of "reasonable force" will apply.

Being so recklessly careless of his and others' safety in a confined space that they apparently bounced his head off a seat, and may well have broken his jaw if reports are true, is not reasonable. The passenger was cornered in a very confined space and outnumbered by guys with far more robust physiques. They should have cleared at least that part of the cabin of passengers. They should have done a whole host of things differently. They should never have tried to disembark passengers already seated. They should have found a different solution. The airline is and those who manhandled Dao are responsible and culpable, period.

If I'd been in a nearby seat, I'd be considering suing the airline for undue stress and trauma.

And if it had been me or my wife who'd been brutalized in this way, I'd have two very sharp and probably hideworthy words to say to you if you tried to publicly delve into either of our pasts to find some explanation or justification for what happened. It's utterly irrelevant.

[randome]

66. I wasn't saying anything about 'justification', only that it might explain Dao's odd behavior.

But I agree with everything you said. There were probably half a dozen things that could have been handled differently to make the outcome a better one.
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[Denzil_DC]

70. Well, my point still stands.

I wouldn't want you or anyone else trying to publicly find explanations for my "odd behaviour" if it had happened to me.

Being hauled around after I thought I'd made my flight and started to get settled, having possibly politely responded "No" when asked if I was willing to give up my seat, then probably bristling and resistant at being singled out and ordered under threat of physical force to leave the plane - I reckon there's a fair chance that I might behave in a way you might consider "odd."

In those circumstances, my background, my past transgressions, anything at all about me would not be your or anyone else's property to bandy around and debate idly - especially when posts of yours stand on this very thread that may be smearing Dao with somebody else's past. And I'm sure the other Mr. Dao - blameless in this current case - is absolutely delighted right now at having his past dragged up in high profile.

[NewRedDawn]

37. Fuck the fascist corporations

and their apologists & enablers!

[mcar]

38. This smear could be about a different Dr. Dao

Link to tweet

[yardwork]

46. Sickening, disgusting, appalling - I'm out of words.

[randome]

50. We should take nothing at face value, even this.

But it sounds likely at this point that we had the wrong 'David Dao' in mind from the start.

The only thing I'd point out is the continual nonsensical hyperbole attached to this issue: United is not, from what we know, running a "smear campaign". The only reason we all ran with the "Dr. Dao" identity is because of a DailyMail story. And some right at the start cautioned about us about the source. We all ignored those cautions.
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[uppityperson]

99. That has been debunked, sorry. Neither's past has anything to do with how he was treated

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-united-david-dao-20170412-story.html

It looks like the right Dr Dao was the one with the past but it is very wrong to treat anyone that way.

[mcar]

105. It never should have been brought up

[hunter]

41. If I'm ever dragged off an airplane and beaten up...

...I'm absolutely certain my mental health issues will be brought up.

I'm certain they'll find people who consider me odd.

Hell, they'll probably dig up some of my most bizarre and angry DU posts.

Fuck'm and fuck...

[randome]

52. Actually, I prize "odd". People are too conformist and too dull otherwise.

But yeah, I hope if you're ever in a similar situation, any figures of authority you encounter are wise enough to try talking with you instead of resorting to violence.
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[hunter]

92. I don't care if you "prize" me or not.

And I don't recognize anyone as "authorities" except by their actions.

Sometimes I think every cop should have five or ten years experience teaching in rough public schools. School teachers are not allowed to resort to violence if a kid is mouthy or refusing to follow instructions.

Teaching in such schools was the most difficult job I ever had, but any authority I had in the classroom did not arise from the position itself or my physical strength.

A society or community where "respect for authority" has to be beaten into people is a sick society.

[Texasgal]

61. You've got the wrong GUY!

Explain your BS now?

[randome]

63. Actually, we have all jumped the gun here.

Even this secondary information is not yet corroborated. Some DUers at the start cautioned us against using the DailyMail as our first source of information about David Dao. None of us listened to them.

I have no 'bullshit' to explain, only the facts as I see them, as stated more completely in post#21 here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028922087#post21
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[Texasgal]

64. You've seemed to jump it

more than others.

[pnwmom]

103. In the real world, where many of us exist, the airlines CAN and DO keep 'upping the bribe'

at least to match what they would have to pay for an involuntary bump ($1325.) United was incredibly stupid to only offer $800 and then have this guy dragged off the plane -- all the bad publicity plus they'll still have to pay him $1325. (But more than that because they're going to settle out of court for a giant payment, just to get out from under the publicity.)

[pnwmom]

82. NO. He was only yelling AFTER they physically grabbed him in an attempt

to improperly force him to leave the plane.

Neither Rule 21 nor Rule 25 nor any other rule on the ticket contract agreement allowed them to do so.

Rule 21 explicitly lays out allowable reasons for removing a seated passenger, and simply needing a seat for some other purpose is NOT one of them.

[randome]

83. I think you need to give up on 'Rule 21'.

As mn9Driver states, boarding covers everything from physical presence to takeoff.

You're right, it appears he only started yelling after they attempted to forcibly remove him. That right there was a sign that something might be 'off' with the guy and the police should have immediately paused to reassess.

But some want to push the line that he started yelling because he was being beaten. The video does not support that, imo.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

85. It doesn't matter what mn9Driver states. If the special meaning of "boarding" isn't defined

on the ticket itself, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't matter what the FAA says in its internal communications. The ticket contains the whole contract between the passenger and the airline.

[randome]

88. Do you think David Dao knew this?

We can argue all day about the minutiae of the law, but passengers are removed from planes all the time. 40,000 were removed last year from American flights: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/United-Forcibly-Removed-Man-Highlights-Overbooking-Policy-419052804.html

If this was illegal, I would think we would know about 40,000 lawsuits by now. All I want is to be precise about the facts, and this is what the facts support right now: that UA can remove a passenger for any reason before takeoff.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

89. They CAN be removed under Rule 21 for misbehavior or safety. Rule 21 doesn't allow

for the removal just because the airline wants someone's seat.

So the fact that 40,000 were removed under different circumstances is completely irrelevant.

[uppityperson]

100. Having police better trained to deal with mentally ill is like universal precautions in healthcare

You don't do it because any individual might have a problem, but because you assume all might have a problem. Hence his individual mental health issues, if any, and those diagnoses can apply to a large percentage of people, has nothing to do with what happened to him.

By saying his past had anything to do with the police hauling him off physically and bloodying him, you are blaming him. Instead, blame the police.

It's their fault for not dealing correctly with a person. It's the police's fault for not following universal precautions, not the patient for being sick.

[peacebuzzard]

16. Correct and completely agree....

And to dismiss this subject as anything less is absurd. This man became a victim. Whether it was United's mainline or regional policy does not matter. There were various stages that this out of control incident could have been avoided. The gate agent, the flight attendants, the captain with dispatch, the concourse supervisor, then ultimately the airport police all of the above contributed to the escalation of the incident. It would have just taken one brave soul to step up and have compassion with a better solution to this common overbooking situation. I have millions of airline travel miles and have never seen anything so ugly.

[usedtobedemgurl]

22. And now they say those rumors are about someone else with the same name!

[MineralMan]

25. That is always a risk when someone searches for background

information. Without a complete, full name and other information, it's easy to find information about someone who is not the person in question. That happens so frequently that any such reports should be looked at skeptically until they are absolutely verified.

In this case, it does appear that there may have been an error in identification by those doing the searching. That would add even more to my dismay about this victim-blaming.

Perhaps we'll learn from this, but I rather doubt it.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. Thanks MM

It's the same old story - and dare I say - if it was Dr. Smith of WASP origin - it would never even be discussed?

The 'default' setting would be he is 'inherently good'.

[Foamfollower]

42. Especially when they smear him with somebody else's past

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html

[HopeAgain]

47. I don't necessarily agree with the characterization

of the reporting being motivated by wanting to blame the victim.

Over-reporting? Yes, but that's a reality of a free press...try to get a scoop on a story of interest.

Relevant? From the recorded video apparently not relevant in the least to the assault. This individual doesn't appear to have done anything to warrant such a brutal assault.

Blaming the victim? I haven't read a single thing that says the victim deserved this.

Irrelevant reporting is not always caused by evil motives. His erratic and bizarre behavior after the assault is irrelevant to the assault itself, but is it newsworthy? Not to me, but if it is to others, than the background may be more a matter of interest. Not all news stories need a political, ethical or moral objective other than just reporting the facts. If they have identified the wrong doctor, then that is just terrible reporting. I have yet to see anyone write or say anything thing that would imply the doctor deserved to be assaulted, however.

[gopiscrap]

51. FUCK UNITED OR ANYOTHER BUSINESS FOR THAT MATTER

United knows full well that there will undoubtedly be a lawsuit filed against it. The reason for digging the dirt is to help convince a jury about the award. Perhaps if they taint this person, an award won't be quite as high. All business exists for is to make money. No business gives a shit about humanity, because if it did, it would be a non-profit. As I have said before an at profit businesses goal is to provide a product or service at the least cost and be able to screw a customer out of the maximum amount possible.

[Stonepounder]

55. A couple of things from a former 'road warrior'.

1. It is quite possible that 400K passengers were bumped (not removed) from flights last year. There is a problem in the airline industry that they refuse to fix. Overbooking. I have read somewhere (and the number is actually irrelevant) that flights get overbooked up to 50%. That is because you don't have to actually pay for your ticket until you use it (on most airlines). So there is no penalty to booking a flight and then just not showing up. So, if airlines only booked the actual number of seats available they would end up with planes half full.

2. Sometimes more folks show up for a flight than there are seats because of the need to overbooking and the airline computers guess wrong. In every single case of overbooking that I have ever seen, there is an announcement in the boarding lounge that the flight is oversold and the boarding agent starts what amounts to an auction to get passengers to voluntarily give up their seats in exchange for some form of compensation. Usually the offer of $600-$800 in travel vouchers and (if needed) a hotel room for the night is enough to get people to volunteer. Rarely the airline has to go higher - up to $1000 (I only saw it go to $1200 once).
Never have a seen a passenger involuntarily removed from a flight after boarding unless it was for some reason other than overbooking (like being drunk).

3. In Kentucky doctors have a real problem because there is a so-called 'heroin epidemic' going on and doctors who aren't exceedingly careful to dot their i's and cross their t's can end up losing their license. My GP regularly gets audited by the feds and the state to make sure they don't think he is over-prescribing narcotics. In reality in Ky it is far easier to get your drugs on the street. There are folks who make a nice living driving to Florida on a regular basis, hitting the pain clinics which cluster at the border, loading up on prescriptions, getting the pills at the pharmacies that cluster next to the pain clinics and driving back to Ky. You can drive to Fl, load up on pills and drive back in two days and make $5000 or more a trip.

[stonecutter357]

58. wow! at the corporate dick sucking in this thread .

[dalton99a]

67. +1

[anneboleyn]

68. The threads yesterday were horrid -- five in a row with clickbait titles and smear tactics

They were filled with click bait nonsense and were an obvious attempt to smear the victim. It happened so many times yesterday that I was suspicious that the posters were sock puppets as it was rather a weird coincidence. Mineral Man is of course totally right.

[yardwork]

69. It's amazing how some people really love authoritarianism, isn't it?

It's been quite educational to see the authoritarian thinking in real time. Now I understand how countries sink quickly into fascism. Some people really, really like it. They like it when strong men beat up on "other" people. They like it when uppity people get beaten into submission.

I guess it makes such people feel safe. Or something. To me, it's sick.

[dalton99a]

72. Critical thinking is hard. Authoritarianism is easy.

Citing rules is easy. And citing corporate rules is very lucrative.

[yardwork]

77. That's definitely part of it - clearly some PR firms have employees posting here. But others....

I think that some of the posters getting off on seeing the uppity little man getting beaten bloody and literally dragged off the plane just like it. They like seeing back-talk put down with brutal violence. I can only surmise that they themselves were punished by authority figures whenever they stepped out of line. It's a window into how some folks think.

[dalton99a]

81. That seems to be the pattern as well

[HoneyBadger]

80. Hah

[neeksgeek]

65. There is a mentality among the right-wing that "bad people" deserve punishment

This is why we see "slut-shaming" and other attacks on the character of victims, attacks which have nothing to do with what the victims have actually endured, nevermind if the "blame the victim" asshats have even identified the correct person.

The "righteous" want to believe that the people they look down on deserve to suffer. It's sociopathic.

[anneboleyn]

71. Yes, and the attitude was here on DU yesterday. I put five people on ignore b/c their posts were

just totally inappropriate for a site like DU (hell they would have been unpopular at the freeper site). It was insane and makes me wonder how many bots and/or sock puppets we have here on DU.

And yes people love to victim-blame as it makes them feel self-righteous and safe and helps them believe the lie that if they do "right" by following Protestant/puritan ethics they will always enjoy a good outcome, which isn't of course the case. It is a fantasy of control over outcomes.

[dalton99a]

73. Plus, the guy was not the right kind of American

[Kablooie]

74. They may be relevant if United is spreading them.

If United is slandering him it would be an added charge in his lawsuit and could increase the amount United will have to pay.

[dalton99a]

75. +1

[Hekate]

76. There are some people on this board who're talking like they'd hold you down to "help" the thugs....

It only took since 9-11, passage of the USA PATRIOT ACT, and the election of Red Don to bring this about, but by golly, America has really been made great.

A great big steaming pile, but great.

[dalton99a]

79. Firm believers in rules and order - like the Golden Rule

"He who has the gold makes the rules"

[iluvtennis]

78. Exactly. trying to approve what was done to him cuz of his past. That's WRONG. nt

[Nitram]

87. You are right, MineralMan.

And from what I've been reading, United had no legal right to remove a passenger who was already seated. They can prevent people from boarding, but unless there is criminal or disruptive behavior, they cannot remove a seated passenger with a valid ticket and boarding pass.

[Swagman]

90. they asked for volunteers

since when did that become the power to 'volunteer' certain people and drag one along the floor.

[certainot]

91. but today 1000 unchallenged radio stations will make it the buzz

to excuse and make light of the fascism

[Proud Liberal Dem]

95. No, it absolutely does NOT

I hate to see stuff like this happen to people whom have been victimized and/or killed by authorities. To me, it is no different than defending perp of sexual assault and violence by blaming women for their own victimization IMHO. When something like this happens, the only thing that *should* matter are the facts and circumstances of the incident. Everything else is completely irrelevant and IMHO meant to simply splash doubt on/smear the victim and justify the perpetrator's actions no matter how inappropriate it may have been.

[Dem2]

101. Victim blaming is shameful

Even the smug CEO had to eventually admit that nothing the victim did was inappropriate or relevant.

[Warpy]

102. Of course it doesn't. However, his past success on the professional

poker circuit is going to come in very handy when United finally realizes how deep the doo doo they stepped in is and starts talking settlement.

At least I hope so. No one deserves to be treated like that unless they've gone completely berserk and physically threatened the flight crew and other passengers. He was quite rational until they got physical with him, at least according to his fellow passengers.

[tavalon]

104. That seems so very obvious to me

What am I missing that so many others don't see it as plainly?

[AgadorSparticus]

106. Exactly! This is a media hatchet job pushed to divert attention

I am not sure what we like more: defending corporations or blaming victims.