The way I see the individual mandate

[Tony_FLADEM]

I think the individual mandate is an example of using the taxcode for social engineering. Both political parties have done this.

Both parties support giving tax credits to taxpayers that have children. People who don't have children end up paying higher taxes.


Both parties support a tax preference for people with mortgages. People who rent end up paying higher taxes.

The Republicans even put into tax law a deduction for people who bought SUVs. People who purchased other vehicle types ended up paying higher taxes.

Using the taxcode to get people to purchase health insurance is similar to the above examples. Certain people end up paying higher taxes if they don't adhere to the desired goal of the tax legislation.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

1. Minimum wage is a tax on slave owners. nt

[AJTheMan]

2. I hope the Affordable Care Act helps me

I don't know if it will or not. I'm uninsured and my mom recently lost her job along with her health insurance. So we'll still be considered "rich" enough because it all goes off of last year's tax returns, which is when my mom was working. My dad has coverage through SSI Disability. I really don't know if the affordable care act will help me or not. I am uninsured and I'm a college student. (I'll be a freshman this august) I don't have any money to buy health insurance, neither does my mom. My dad gets it at a low rate. But since they base everything off of tax returns, I mean my family made $65,000 last year. This year we won't get close to that number. So I don't know if I qualify for the new medicaid laws or not. Not to mention, the Governor of my state has vowed not to implement the medicaid provisions in the law. So there's always that uncertainty.

The reason I'm not really enthused about this whole thing is that I was always under the assumption that Democrats wanted single-payer. I always assumed that someday a Democrat would make it single payer, which is much simpler. But instead our president decided to take a play from the G.O.P playbook and go for the individual mandates, which Republicans offered as an alternative to hillarycare in the 1990's. All in all, I am suspicious of how this law will even help me. I know that when my mom did have a job and health insurance, it cost $600 a month to cover my dad and I. We struggled to afford that last year and we certainly won't be able to now.

[Honeycombe8]

7. I urge you to leave La. if you can. If not now, then when you can.

I'm from La. It is hard, if not impossible, for the average middle class or lower middle class person to get ahead there these days.

La. is very dark red. Read that to mean it supports a radical right agenda.

My sister is on Medicaid in La. Medicaid in La. is worse than here in TX.

QUESTION: You say "we" had an income of $65k last year. Does that mean you are a dependent?

[AJTheMan]

10. Yeah I'm only 18. Just got out of high school.

I am a dependent. For now. I plan to branch out on my own once I finish up my bachelors. (Like I said, I only now a freshman)

Not to sound argumentative, but I don't see any plausible way for me to leave LA. I'm on TOPPS Scholarship so I go to school for free here. If I moved then I would have to deal with student debt elsewhere. I do agree with you that life in Louisiana is getting tougher. Did you know that we have a total of three, count them, three abortion clinics in the entire state. Not very progressive.

[Honeycombe8]

16. I see. Yes, you have to stay. La. is beautiful, but the economy sucks. You WILL get health care....

because of your circumstances.

You are considered still a child, and you and your Mom can get family coverage. Or family Medicaid.

As for an ins. policy, the fact that you're 18 means that you can get a family policy. That is, both of you can get some ins. at a reduced rate, rather than each of you having to buy a policy. And BTW, the new act extended that age of the child for that purpose to 26.

You're lucky you have a clinic in your area. NOTE THAT THE NEW ACA LAW ADDED A LOT OF MONEY TO FUND MORE CLINICS. But it looks like Jindal is going to fight having to implement the new ACA law.

Let us know what happens. We really do care here, you know. You will do fine in the world if you are already thinking about these necessary and heavy duty things at your age. I was an idiot at 18....party party party is all I did.

[Honeycombe8]

11. You work, right? Your college sells ins. for its students.

Have you checked into the cost for minimal coverage thru your college?

The requirement to get coverage doesn't go into effect until 2014.

Medicaid covers families. It will go by your current circumstances, I believe, not your last year's returns. BUT your mom can't have a stash of cash in a savings account.

Does your mom have any emergency savings which can help pay for ins? Is she likely to get another job?

There are so many variables, it's hard to say.

Sometimes people can convert their job based coverage to an individual policy (not COBRA).

If you mom really has no $, she no doubt qualifies for Medicaid, esp since you're under 19 (you're under 19, right?). You qualify as a child.

GO TO THIS SITE AND click on the options that apply to your mom, and see where that takes you. It will tell you the options she has. WWW.HEALTHCARE.GOV


THEN GO TO THE SITE AGAIN and click on the options that apply to YOU, and see what your options are.

There are so many variables that someone who doesn't have all your facts can't really say what your options are. How old is your mother? Is she healthy? Does she have a pre-existing condition? Does she smoke?

Take heart. You and your mom DO have options.

[AJTheMan]

12. I appreciate it.

One good thing that I found is a place, it's federally funded and goes on a sliding scale based on how much you or your family makes. So a doctor visit is only $28 instead of $200. That's good for primary care and I intend on going there for the little stuff. However, I do realize that if I were to have a serious medical emergency, I would need some way to pay for it. So I will look at that site and see what makes sense for my family. I actually have a lot of sway in my family so hopefully I could make a suggestion to my mom about it. Thanks again.

[joshcryer]

5. Stay classy.

Wow...

[joshcryer]

4. Exactly, now, would we say that the Republicans mandated us buying a house...

...because they gave a tax credit for people paying a mortgage?

No, it's fucking nonsense, this is specifically why the Heritage Foundations "mandate" was total bullshit.

[Fumesucker]

8. And yet you expect only 2% non compliance with the mandate..

For a supposedly non-coercive system that's an awfully low non-compliance rate..

[joshcryer]

15. Tell that to the 34% of the American population who rents that the "buy a house mandate" exists?

I mean, if credits are the same thing as penalties and all...

[Fumesucker]

19. As I said, 2% is an awfully low non compliance rate..

Your reply had nothing to do with my comment..

[joshcryer]

22. I'm not even sure what your 2% non-compliance is referring to.

The penalty mandate or the credit mandate?

[bornskeptic]

41. 85% have insurance already.

Of the other 15%, almost half will be eligible for Medicare, unless their state's governor is stupid enough to not comply. Thus 2% is about 25% of those to whom the mandate might apply, but the majority of that group would like to have insurance, but can't afford it because of low income or pre-existing conditions. Most of those people who sign up would do so if the mandate didn't exist, because they will find good insurance available at an affordable price. So the people who don't acquire insurance or who buy insurance because of the mandate probably won't exceed 2% of the population.

[Tony_FLADEM]

9. They didn't mandate we buy a house. They gave us a tax penalty for not buying one

because there is no deduction for rent.

[joshcryer]

14. Except that "tax penalty" isn't taken from your refund.

It simply never exists for renters. From their point of view, since they're not paying a mortgage, it doesn't have any relevance to them.

[Tony_FLADEM]

25. It does have a relevance. All else being equal renters pay higher taxes

than those with a mortgage. If they were due a refund, it would be less of a refund.

[joshcryer]

26. They don't percieve it that way though.

Hell, in theory they're even paying property taxes, but they don't "feel it." It's just not something that occurs to them so their behavior isn't "damn tax credit is a mandate to buy a house!" They never see it that way.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Perhaps the renters, without all the burden of being not owners, but actually just mortgage holders

have enough brain power left to understand the difference between a mandate and an incentive. If we start claiming that incentives are mandates, then what of those incentives to married couples which are denied to those who are denied the right to marry? What is being mandated in that case?
If you see all incentives as mandates, clearly we need to up the noise on ending or equalizing those mandates.

[bornskeptic]

42. It doesn't apply to most people in the bottom 60% of the income spectrum

because most of us don't have enough deductions to itemize. My wife and I havw been paying about $6000 a year in mortgage interest for the last four years and never gotten a any deduction for it. At least the penalty in the ACA is progressive, while the home mortgage interest deduction is extremely regressive.

[Swede Atlanta]

6. Tony, you are correct that we enshrine social values in our tax system....

Conventional wisdom is we like

(a) Families with children
(b) People that buy property
(c) People that buy certain types of vehicles
(d) People that buy certain products (e.g. energy saver appliances, windows, etc.)

These are all things we reward by tax deductions.

I for one believe that we are a point on this planet where having children, as much of a blessing and wonder it is, is probably bordering on immoral. Don't get me wrong, I love children and fully support families that want to have children but we cannot support the population we have. We lack adequate food, water, shelter, jobs, opportunity for the ones we have. Reproducing is, objectively, a questionable decision from a practical perspective.

So our decision to tax people that choose not to have health insurance is another social value in our tax system. While deductions apply when you have affirmatively done something (like pro-create or buy a home), the penalty applies to something you have not done. I really don't see the difference.

[Honeycombe8]

13. I plugged in some hypotheticals at www.healthcare.gov & got some plans for you.

I made up a birth date for your mom of 1/1/80, and your birth date 1/1/93. You are male. Neither of you have used tobacco for the past year. No pre-existing conditions.

Then I clicked on "Show Me the Plan!" and got some proposed plans.

The cheapest one is about $128 and covers both you and your mother. It's by Humana. It's not a good plan, of course. It has high deductibles, etc., etc. I'm not sure it's even worth buying. But if she can go closer to $200 mo. for the two of you, you can get something that looks like this:

HumanaOne Enhanced HSA 100% Plan - $5,000 Single / $10,000 Family

Humana Health Benefit Plan of LA, Inc.


In-Network Out-of-
Pocket Limit:
Individual: $5,000.00
Family: $10,000.00

Doctor Choice:
PPO

Estimated Monthly Base Rate:
Estimated monthly base rate is $180.01 per month.

Annual Deductible: Individual: $5,000.00
Family: $10,000.00

Prescription Coverage: Yes

You may be charged more.
12% received surcharged quotes.

Annual Maximum Benefit:
Individual: No Maximum
Family: No Maximum

How many applications are denied?
22% who applied were turned down.

IF YOUR MOM CANNOT AFFORD A POLICY FOR THE TWO OF YOU, REST ASSURED THAT YOU AND SHE WILL BE ABLE TO GET HEALTH CARE SOME WAY. That's what Medicaid and the subsidies are expressly for. The mandate is for people who can afford ins. but choose not to get it.

[Skittles]

17. Annual Deductible: Individual: $5,000.00 Family: $10,000.00

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fucking RIDICULOUS

[Honeycombe8]

18. That's a plan that protects against catastrophe. Not one that pays for everything. Note

that preventive care is no cost. So you get a well exam once a year, I guess. And Mom would get a mammogram.

What do you expect for $180 a month for TWO people?

[Skittles]

29. PLEASE

that "preventative care" will cost them $2160 a year

[Honeycombe8]

34. Under the ACA, there is no copay for preventive well exams. nt

[Honeycombe8]

36. That's $1,080 per person. If you can find better for him, please do so. nt

[Skittles]

40. again, we are accepting what SUCKS as GOOD

because you CAN'T FIND BETTER - that STINKS

[Honeycombe8]

20. We're not all as lucky as you. You're apparently used to better. nt

[Fumesucker]

23. That sounds like the sort of comment often leveled at union members..

Why can't we all be as lucky as Skittles, do we really need to drag Skittles down to our own level of misery?

[Skittles]

28. repuke propaganda works on more than just repukes, Fumesucker

Democrats are learning to DEFEND crap

[Honeycombe8]

33. Not at all. His post was making fun of others who have to do with less. You're

talking about someone who cannot afford a $700 deductible. That's not gonna happen with a premium of $200/month.

So don't make fun of what someone can afford.

(Note: My brother is union.)

[Fumesucker]

37. Yes, that was my point..

A mean spirited post telling anyone that has decent insurance that they are "lucky" and should lose their advantage, get a bronze plan like the rest of us.

I was making an analogy, that comment sounded like what people say about union members, they should be dragged down to the level of everyone else rather than everyone else being raised to the level of union members.

[Skittles]

30. LOLOL

assume much, do you???

[Honeycombe8]

35. My COBRA premium for $700 deductible standard policy was $621.50/mo. $7,458/yr.

Non-smoker. For one healthy person...no illnesses or conditions whatsoever. That would be over $14,000/yr for two.

He can't afford that.

We're not all as lucky as you. You obviously have better than that, or you wouldn't make fun of the limits of what someone else can afford.

Geez, that's like someone dressed in Neiman Marcus clothes making fun of a working class person dressed in what she considers her nicest Target dress.

[Skittles]

43. what is wrong with you?

STOP ASSUMING!!! You know NOTHING about me.

[girl gone mad]

21. If the government absolutely had to raise revenue (bogus - they did not)..

it should have been done through increased taxes on the wealthy or corporations, not through a tax which will primarily hit middle class families and low income wage earners. Sorry, but this mandate is pure evil in my eyes.

[Tony_FLADEM]

24. People below a certain income limit are exempt from the individual mandate

[Hoyt]

27. Doesn't bother me that people with children get credits. The family income

has to support more people. People who rent, should pay less because landlord gets benefit of deducting loan interest. In other words, if interest were not deductible, rental rate would tend to increase, other factors equal.

People who game the health care system and cost all of, should pay a penalty to cover care they will inevitably need. This assumes lower income people have access to heavily subsidized coverage.

[xoom]

31. I dont think your examples are similar to the mandate.

In regards to the mandate, the law states that we must purchase something. Or there will be a penalty against you if you do not purchase said product.

Your examples relate to something you get after you purchase something. We are not mandated to purchase a house, a certain vehicle or even have kids. If you did none of that you wouldnt have to pay for anything.

Point is under the ACA the federal government is forcing its citizens to purchase something. Idk of another example of this?

[Tony_FLADEM]

32. The implications are the same on a monetary basis

If you do as the government intended you pay lower taxes than someone who has not.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. The word for the mortgage deduction is 'incentive' not mandate....

There are many actions which if taken will reduce certain tax burdens, this is an incentive to take those actions. The word mandate does not apply to an incentive.

Incentive= something, especially money, that encourages a person or organization to do something:
Mandate= to officially require someone to do something, or something to happen.

Huge difference. Required and encouraged. Huge difference.