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Tue Apr 25, 2017, 08:35 AM

Kaine

Yesterday, I read some OP/threads on DU:GD regarding Tim Kaine, and his position on abortion. Not all of the information on the thread was accurate, and so I thought it would be worthwhile to look into what his position actually is. It is an important issue, and it is essential that we have accurate information in order to be able to have meaningful discussions on how to protect people's rights, in the face of a republican White House, Senate, and House of Representatives,

Indeed, there is a possibility – even a likelihood – that the republicans will attempt to restrict reproductive rights, both at the state level, and with an eye on the US Supreme Court. For that reason, I believe that it is important that members of the Democratic Party have open and honest conversations about what actions people at the grass roots level can take to protect what should be recognized as established law.

In doing so, we must keep in mind that reproductive rights are closely associated with other rights in our society. I remember back in the 1980s, when a spokesperson for the “moral majority” (it was neither) said that pregnancy was God's punishment for women enjoying sex. Seriously. And there are a lot of unhappy people who want to control other people's lives in areas that are absolutely none of their business.

Here is a link with detailed information on Kaine's views on abortion:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Tim_Kaine_Abortion.htm

His positions are clear: while he personally does not approve of abortion, he respects the fact that Roe v Wade is established law, and is opposed to efforts to change that. He does support three restrictions; these involve parental consent, informed consent, and restrictions on partial birth abortions.

I think that the Democratic Party needs to harness the strength of everyone who recognizes and respects Roe v Wade as established law. I do have serious concerns about “restrictions.” I view efforts to enact such restrictions on the state level for what they are: attempts to eliminate women's options.

I also disagree with Kaine's focus on “abstinence” education as a means of reducing unwanted/ unplanned pregnancies. While it could be included as a part of sex education in public schools, it is unrealistic to assume it is meaningful to most teenagers. More, education about birth control and access to contraceptives is essential.

That, of course, brings us to Planned Parenthood. There is an on-going effort to eliminate funding for Planned Parenthood that is exclusive to the republican agenda. That is unacceptable.

I believe that our party's potential candidates can hold a range of personal beliefs about abortion, so long as they recognize that Roe v Wade is established law; that individual states do not have the “right” to restrict it; that they understand that access to birth control is essential; and that they support Planned Parenthood.

I understand that other people may have different beliefs, that influence what candidates they will support or not support. This is an issue that, like several others, many people place at the top of their list of priorities. Building the coalition that can win elections at all levels has to be the Democratic Party's goal, and that obviously involves addressing those essential issues.

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Arrow 51 replies Author Time Post
Reply Kaine (Original post)
H2O Man Apr 2017 OP
FSogol Apr 2017 #1
H2O Man Apr 2017 #2
Vesper Apr 2017 #37
boston bean Apr 2017 #3
mcar Apr 2017 #4
Post removed Apr 2017 #5
H2O Man Apr 2017 #13
Gothmog Apr 2017 #22
Foamfollower Apr 2017 #26
Vesper Apr 2017 #38
moriah Apr 2017 #27
mcar Apr 2017 #29
moriah Apr 2017 #30
madokie Apr 2017 #6
demmiblue Apr 2017 #7
H2O Man Apr 2017 #14
George II Apr 2017 #8
H2O Man Apr 2017 #15
George II Apr 2017 #17
H2O Man Apr 2017 #21
Gothmog Apr 2017 #23
H2O Man Apr 2017 #24
Nanjeanne Apr 2017 #9
H2O Man Apr 2017 #16
Vesper Apr 2017 #39
democrank Apr 2017 #10
H2O Man Apr 2017 #18
Vesper Apr 2017 #40
lostnfound Apr 2017 #50
brer cat Apr 2017 #11
H2O Man Apr 2017 #19
Justice Apr 2017 #43
H2O Man Apr 2017 #49
Vesper Apr 2017 #41
brer cat Apr 2017 #42
Vesper Apr 2017 #44
brer cat Apr 2017 #45
Vesper Apr 2017 #46
brer cat Apr 2017 #47
Vesper Apr 2017 #48
2naSalit Apr 2017 #12
H2O Man Apr 2017 #20
spanone Apr 2017 #25
H2O Man Apr 2017 #33
ms liberty Apr 2017 #28
H2O Man Apr 2017 #34
PufPuf23 Apr 2017 #31
H2O Man Apr 2017 #35
SalviaBlue Apr 2017 #32
H2O Man Apr 2017 #36
Me. Apr 2017 #51

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 08:42 AM

1. One of the restrictions (partial-birth abortions) came about in Virginia at a time when the GOP

was trying to totally ban the rare procedure. Thanks to Kaine and our Democratic legislature (Dick Saslaw) that ban has exemptions for rape, incest, and protecting the life of the mother.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 08:43 AM

2. Right.

Thank you.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:07 PM

37. They just made it up. There is no such procedure by that name at all.

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 08:46 AM

3. he DOES NOT support restrictions on partial birth abortions and can we please leave the RW framing

out of our vocabulary.

Tim Kaine supports late term abortion restrictions if the life of the mother is taken into consideration. That is perfectly in line with democratic policies and principles. Exactly the law of the land right now.

These procedures are RARE, and the RW will never agree to the "life of the mother" caveat. So therefore this meme that he support restrictions on partial birth abortion is a right wing meme designed to confuse and divide democrats. People need to educate themselves on this before purporting to be the factual voice.

Again, another man telling us women what is what, when he is WRONG. Please stop this.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 08:59 AM

4. +1000!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #3)


Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:40 AM

13. Thank you.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 11:59 AM

22. Great post-you are correct as to the facts

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Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:31 PM

26. Under Roe, certain restrictions on third trimester abortions are legitimate.

 

Roe is pretty clear on the subject. The state has a compelling interest in third trimester abortions. What cannot be done is outright bans.

In nearly every case, a third trimester abortion is going to be completely legitimate and within the law because they rarely happen and are nearly always because of the threat to the life of the woman.

And clearly, the procedure that was misnamed "partial birth abortion" is an absolutely necessary procedure in cases of hydroencephaly when the cavity where the missing cerebrum in the fetus fills with fluid. In fact, any other procedure is extremely hazardous to the woman. The procedure in question pierces that cavity and allows the fluid to be drained prior to removal of the fetus, insuring the woman has as little trauma as possible. The only other option is surgery which is far more hazardous!

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Response to Foamfollower (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:09 PM

38. They made up the term to be as offensive as possible, there is literally no such

 

procedure in medical terms.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:46 PM

27. Sorry, have to disagree at least with some of this.

1) The RW frame their bills for "life" exceptions usually, but not both life *and* health, and if any health exception no mental health exception, and usually restricted to "permanent impairment of function" being how bad a woman's health has to be damaged by the parasite drawing life off of theirs before she can have it removed. The 20-week abortion ban Casey voted for cloture on when he knew Obama had promised a veto had no health exception, but definitely a life of the mother exception.

2) That same bill also highlights another RW drift -- they want the procedure to be done in the way "most likely to preserve the life" of the child, unless it would make the woman's chance at survival worse. Yay, at least they aren't demanding Cesarean delivery when the life-threatening condition is a septic preterm birth. But boo, in that now that they got D&X outlawed they want to dictate that the abortion might have to be done by hysterotomy. Still, they've drifted away from D&X procedures being their main targets.

3) While Kaine might not support restrictions on that method now, in 2005 he *did* campaign on the promise to ban D&X procedures with an "enforceable" ban, which meant it had to have both life and health exceptions. And he used the "PBA" words when he said it, on his website, during that campaign.

I'm a woman who has read Kaine's record closely.

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Response to moriah (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:48 PM

29. RW framing is when it's called

"Partial Birth" abortion. That's simply not a thing.

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Response to mcar (Reply #29)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:50 PM

30. Hence why I used the correct term D&X.

But when Kaine made the promise, those were the words he used.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 09:16 AM

6. I'm for letting Women make that choice

let me say. I'm a Vietnam Vet who spent 15 months exposed to agent orange. I read early on upon my return that many of the Vets were fathering, giving birth too, whichever the case may be, to some Children with some serious health issues suspected to be due to their exposure to A.O. So I decided that I didn't want to father a child with those odds. I can love anyone mans child just as well as my own

I grew up poor in a poor neighborhood and had many friends with only one parent so I've always felt that being a step parent would be a noble cause. All children can benefit, (notice I used the word Can,) from a two parent home. I have two step Sons and a most wonderful step Grand Daughter. I wasn't a very good step parent but I did the best I could with the issues I came home with that I didn't realize I had until many years later.

Having said all that I admit that I've been in on the decision making part of a couple abortions and to this day I feel we made the right decisions. Before anyone starts on me not all birth control is 100%.

I want no Politician nor judge or anyone else, (possibility father to be explained later,) to have any say in any womans decision on whether to have an abortion or not, under any circumstances I might add

I'll also say I'm not bound by religion as I'm a Non-Religious person who does not believe that there is a God or anything like that. We simply evolved and are evolving as we live today. I also feel that it is your or anyone else's right to believe as you or they so chose.

Let the Woman make up her mind about Abortion without any bullshit from anyone other than the father if she so choses to allow that.

My apologies for not being a very good writer and possibly not making much sense here.

Peace



PS As I said to you many years ago you are the person who should, if we were to have one, be the voice for this board

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Response to madokie (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 09:20 AM

7. You made perfect sense.

Thank you.

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Response to madokie (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:51 AM

14. Very well said!

Thank you for this.

I have a sibling who used to be aggressive in voicing his opposition to abortion. That changed when it involved his wife and him. I never pointed that out to him, since I was sick of hearing his opinion, and was happy that he had finally shut up.

It's not an issue that presented itself in my personal life. But I have daughters, and am fully confident that they are capable of making decisions for themselves, without the input of the Ted Cruz-types of the world.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 09:24 AM

8. "Yesterday, I read some OP/threads on DU:GD regarding Tim Kaine, and his position on abortion"

Can you direct us to that please?

Kaine's exact position on the various issues with respect to abortion, unfiltered.

Don't weaken or subvert the basic holding of Roe v. Wade

I strongly support the right of women to make their own health and reproductive decisions and, for that reason, will oppose efforts to weaken or subvert the basic holding of Roe v. Wade. We all share the goal of reducing unwanted pregnancies and abortions. The right way to do this is through education and access to health care and contraception rather than criminalizing women's reproductive decisions.

Source: 2012 Senate campaign website, kaineforva.com , Oct 9, 2012

Don't deny privacy to women making health care decisions

As governor, we worked with Democrats, Republicans and independents to get results. Over the last four years, the GOP pushed ideology and wedge issues. Last week, they passed a platform demanding privacy for Super PACs and denying privacy to women making health care decisions. Meanwhile, Democrats fought for the middle class.
Source: 2012 Democratic National Convention speech , Sep 4, 2012

If life begins at conception, we must outlaw contraception

Kaine explained that the common birth control pill works by a dual mechanism--both preventing fertilization, and preventing successful implantation when fertilization does occur. Also, he added, intra-uterine devices work singly by preventing implantation. Allen had a fumble on some basic science. The candidates were asked about conservative proposals to declare that life begins at conception. Allen said that defining life as beginning at conception would not outlaw contraception, as "contraception" means stopping conception--that is, preventing fertilization from taking place:
Moderator: Could you tell us, how do you think birth control pills and intra-uterine devices work?
Allen: I don't profess to be a doctor. I'm just using maybe a little
Source: Eric Kleefeld reporting on 2012 Virginia Senate debate , Dec 7, 2011

Personally opposed to abortion, but it shouldn't be outlawed

Kaine, a Roman Catholic who worked as a missionary in Honduras reiterated his personal opposition to abortion, but maintained the practice should not be outlawed.
When asked if he'd like to see the Supreme Court overturn Roe the Governor answered, "I don't think the Supreme Court should." He continued, "Roe vs. Wade is ultimately about saying that there is a realm of personal liberty for people to make this decision."
Source: ABC News: Politics Blog , Jul 31, 2008
Parental consent; ban partial birth; informed consent

While saying that he supports Roe and that he does not want to criminalize abortion, Kaine voiced support for three abortion restrictions.

He backs a parental consent law in Virginia which has a judicial bypass. He supports a ban on "partial birth abortions so long as there is an exception for the life and health of the mother". He also favors an "informed consent provision" in Virginia which requires abortion providers to "give women information about a whole series of things, the health consequences, et cetera, and information about adoption."

"Those, I have supported," said Kaine. "But I don't think ultimately we ought to be criminalizing abortion."
Source: ABC News: Politics Blog , Jul 31, 2008

Promote abstinence; ban partial-birth abortion

I will reduce abortion in Virginia by enforcing current Virginia restrictions, passing an enforceable ban on partial-birth abortion, ensuring women’s access to health care (including legal contraception), and promoting abstinence-focused education and adoption. We should reduce abortion in this manner, rather than by criminalizing women and doctors.
Source: 2005 Gubernatorial campaign website kaine2005.org, “Issues” , Nov 8, 2005

I have a faith-based opposition to abortion

I have a faith-based opposition to abortion. As governor, I will work in good faith to reduce abortions by:
Enforcing the current Virginia restrictions on abortion and passing an enforceable ban on partial birth abortion that protects the life and health of the mother;
Fighting teen pregnancy through abstinence-focused education;
Ensuring women’s access to health care (including legal contraception) and economic opportunity; and
Promoting adoption as an alternative for women facing unwanted pregnancies.
Too often politicians are interested in scoring political points, rather than in reducing the number of abortions. Many of the legislative proposals introduced in the General Assembly, like the ones to require unnecessary building standards for doctor’s offices that perform abortions, are just political grandstanding. They encourage division and lawsuits rather than contributing to the goal of reducing abortions.

Source: 2005 Gubernatorial campaign website kaine2005.org, “Issues” , Nov 8, 2005
Supports public abortion funding.

Kaine supports the CC Voters Guide question on abortion funding

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Response to George II (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:51 AM

15. no

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:59 AM

17. I can only assume then that there were/are none.

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Response to George II (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 11:09 AM

21. oh

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:01 PM

23. What does this post mean in context of the facts presented above?

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:06 PM

24. It means no.

I'm not interested in providing links to the OP/threads to that individual.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 09:38 AM

9. So basically same as Mello if you actually believed facts


https://www.thenation.com/article/why-was-heath-mello-thrown-under-the-bus/

Here’s the truth about Mello’s record: Back in 2009, he co-sponsored a bill requiring a physician performing an abortion to tell a woman that an ultrasound is available (as most already did). It neither mandated that the ultrasound be performed nor, if performed, that it actually be viewed by the woman—although it did require abortion providers to position the screen is such a way that the ultrasound was easily viewable.


All of these bills were opposed by Planned Parenthood—and, given the realities of Nebraska politics, all easily passed.

What’s more interesting is what happened next—and what didn’t. In 2012, Mello voted with Planned Parenthood on two out of three bills tracked by the group—and was excused from voting on the third. After that, Mello, who had become the influential chair of the state legislature’s Budget Committee, voted with Planned Parenthood 100 percent of the time. By 2015, the group was celebrating a “fourth straight year….without enacting any new abortion restrictions in Nebraska, thanks largely to committed women’s health advocates engaged in the legislative process.”


Like many of his supporters—including some of his most fervently pro-choice supporters—Mello told me that he would like abortion to be a private matter between a woman and her partner, or her conscience. So long as women’s rights are under threat, that can’t happen. But when I ask Mello if, when he says he “will not restrict women’s reproductive care,” that includes abortions, he doesn’t equivocate: “Of course. I thought that was obvious.”


Bolding mine.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:52 AM

16. Thank you.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:21 PM

39. No. I get why the sole focus here is on that one ultra sound bill whose language

 

ALSO includes right wing framing and fictional procedures, but Kaine never introduced a 20 week abortion ban, Mello did. So trying to say they're basically the same is dishonest, counterfactual and 100% wrong.

Mello also sponsored bills to require a physician to be present, which is problematic for telemedicine abortion which is necessary for those in rural, under served areas.

So the truth about Mello's record is that he's right wing extremist level of anti-choice, Trent Franks level, Ted Cruz level anti-choice.

So the facts show that Kaine is NOTHING like Mello, and the false equivalence fails once one looks at that Ultrasound bill that's being spun like crazy and one takes into account his OTHER bills, that he sponsored himself, which speak to what this man is and what he stands for.

Here is the American College of Ob/Gyns on these right wing attacks that make up Mello's record.

http://www.acog.org/Resources-And-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Health-Care-for-Underserved-Women/Increasing-Access-to-Abortion

Ignoring the totality of his record while dishonestly praising him falsely doesn't work, attacking other Senators who might have personal or religious views, but have never tried to force those onto women with abortion ban legislation, attacking telemedicine is simply not going to work.

So when Mello says he won't restrict women's reproductive care, he's lying because he's already tried rather hard to do just that and there is no reason to think he's changed at all.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:06 AM

10. I support a womans right to choose 100%.

I can, however, understand what a deeply personal issue this is, and how it`s not always easy to give a flat-out "I support abortions" or "I don`t support abortions" answer. I have friends who are all over the place on this issue.

I would never hold up a sign stating that I support abortions, but I would gladly hold up a sign stating I support a woman`s right to choose.

~PEACE~



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Response to democrank (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 11:04 AM

18. Thank you.

I was raised in an Irish catholic family, part of a much larger Irish catholic extended family. Thus, I was exposed to a wide range of opinions on the topic. In my opinion, those with the most rigid positions -- about life, sex, death, etc -- were rather uptight.

I tend to be comfortable with my own opinions, thoughts, and values. And that includes accepting that other folks may view things differently. But the rigid right-wing republican attacks on women's health issues goes way beyond their right to their beliefs, as it attempts to force them upon others. Thus, I'll be happy to carry a sign along side you in a rally, etc.

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Response to democrank (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:27 PM

40. I don't understand why anyone thinks anyone is cheering on abortions.

 

They are medical procedures, and all medical procedures are deeply personal issues. I don't know why people feel the need to opine on this one, where it doesn't concern them, are they giving flat out " I support CABG" or "I don't support pig or cow valve replacement surgery"?

If not, then why not? There are ethical and religious issues in those procedures as well.

I don't see why anyone is holding up signs supporting or not supporting any medical procedures, period.

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Response to democrank (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 26, 2017, 09:13 AM

50. The new phrase which I find more appropriate is "trust women"

A "right to choose" sounds like it could apply to far more frivolous topics and fails to recognize it as an issue with deep moral implications for many if not most people. My pro-life acquaintances -- catholic women, mainly -- would say "a right to choose what"? That phrase raises more questions than answers.

But "trust women" is a phrase that immediately recognizes the complexity of the decision and situations that women face, and also raises the question of whether one would trust the government to make a decision instead. Or a bunch of legislators who have nothing to do with the pregnancy? Who do you trust, the woman who is pregnant and knows the exact and personal circumstances of her health, her pregnancy, and her family situation? Or a bunch of legislators, who incidentally may turn around tomorrow and vote to kill thousands in a war or hundreds on death row, with nary a word of moral outrage from the same people who feel so vehemently against legalized abortion.

There is no reason to entrust pandering legislators with these decisions. To say "trust women" is to respect the light of the individual conscience. I think it is a better way to open minds.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:11 AM

11. He changed on abstinence-only education in 2007.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 11:08 AM

19. Thanks!

That's good.

I think that Planned Parenthood should be involved in presenting in public schools. When I worked at a "day treatment" program for young adults, PP provided a valuable presentation. And I know they provide a variety of services to people. I think that's far more realistic than abstinence information.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:43 PM

43. You should edit your OP to correct wrong statement about abstinence.

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Response to Justice (Reply #43)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 03:26 PM

49. The OP is correct.

From the article you linked:

"The governor supports abstinence-based education, but the governor wants to see us funding programs that are evidenced-based," said Skinner, who added that Virginia will now offer "more comprehensive" sex education.

Had I said he advocated "abstinence-only" education, the OP would benefit from editing. Since I was accurate, there is no need to.

Thanks, though! Much appreciated!

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Response to brer cat (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:31 PM

41. Was he pro abstinence only before then?

 

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Response to Vesper (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:40 PM

42. Yes.

He later said it wasn't supported by evidence that it was effective.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:45 PM

44. I thought I read earlier in the thread that he was pro access to contraception though.

 

I guess comprehensive sex education isn't a term he used?

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Response to Vesper (Reply #44)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:52 PM

45. He did later.

I believe it was 2007 when he funded sex ed in VA that included birth control and condoms.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:54 PM

46. Since he took office in 2006 (per wiki), that's not too bad.

 

Especially considering the level of sleaze he was dealing with in that state. The "cooch"! Blech.

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Response to Vesper (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:57 PM

47. VA was the 14th state to banish abstinence-only sex ed.

Plenty more were lagging.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 03:26 PM

48. Gotcha. Thank you for the info!

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 10:22 AM

12. K&R

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 11:09 AM

20. Thanks.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:12 PM

25. K&R...

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Response to spanone (Reply #25)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 01:49 PM

33. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 12:46 PM

28. K&R. n/t

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 01:49 PM

34. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 01:28 PM

31. Thank you for remaining:

(1) Positive
(2) Realistic
(3) Detailed
(4) Democratic
(5) You.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #31)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:01 PM

35. Well, thank you!

I had planned to go to town today, to do some shopping ......and just found I have a flat tire. Until reading your kind response, I was experiencing 15 minutes of frustration. However, my nearest neighbor has a garage, and he'll be there a little after 4 this afternoon. Hopefully, he can patch the darned thing for me.

Your post reminds me of something my mentor, Rubin Carter, told me years ago: if your vehicle has a flat tire, change it. He wasn't talking about automobiles, of course. But I'll apply that lesson to the current circumstance! (grin)

I'd like to think that much of the nonsense on this forum can be applied to the party's growing pains. I'd hate to think that it's shrinking pains. I remember a year ago, while three of us were going door-to-door campaigning for Bernie in Oneonta, NY, we encountered two people going door-to-door for Hillary. Though Oneonta is a small city, there was room for all of us. The same holds true for the Democratic Party, and even DU.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 01:43 PM

32. K&R

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Response to SalviaBlue (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 25, 2017, 02:01 PM

36. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Apr 26, 2017, 09:57 AM

51. KR

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