after 300 years a woman wins a parties nomination and loses the EC but wins the popular vote

[boston bean]

and our lesson is that we need to be more open to anti choice candidates in our party?

That it is ok to support them over pro choice dems in primaries?

WTeverlovityFUCK?!

[Orsino]

1. We don't have the luxury of money-enforced lock-step.

Dems have to work a larger tent in order to win majorities.

[bettyellen]

8. To me it's a line because it's supporting a roll back of human rights.

We can argue all day about how and when advances should come but that's not what we're talking about.

[Orsino]

11. It should be a line for many voters, and will be.

Just not enough to sway Democratic leaders chasing majorities.

Yet.

[boston bean]

14. After the last election i can guarantee our leaders this is no small issue.

There will be ramifications.

[all american girl]

48. So, can I ask what rights are willing to give up?

And I mean rights that personally affect you

[Orsino]

55. My own willingness doesn't have a lot to do with what rights we can win and retain.

All we can do is work for as much gain as we can get (or stomach).

[snooper2]

2. Thread #308

As long as we got Silvio's money all is good....all is good!

[boston bean]

3. so sorry to bother you snooper2. If it upsets you, just skip over.

[LanternWaste]

7. No doubt, the clarion calls for unity over divisiveness are allegedly sincere.

No doubt, the clarion calls for unity over divisiveness are allegedly sincere... as you most accurately illustrate.

[hlthe2b]

4. seems "progressiveism" is an oxymoron...

sigh...

[ismnotwasm]

5. Social justice issues and/or women's rights are NOT negotiable

I think the fact that there are anti-choice women perhaps confuses people? I'm not getting it.

[LisaM]

6. Yes, this is beginning to bother me more and more.

We were gaslighted into not being able to joyfully celebrate having a woman candidate. I think it happened a little in 2008 too (talk about a rigged primary - the DNC just flat out didn't count two states the woman candidate won in the primaries because they dared move them to a more relevant date).

Now it's "oh, okay, a woman, just not this (super-qualified and experienced with a huge history of working for women and also capable of holding a progressive and evolving platform) woman. Daring to hold women's rights dear and equal is "identity politics".

Just sick of it.

[BlueMTexpat]

12. This!

A million times this!

[deurbano]

24. Me, too!

And remember how the racist, low information Clinton voters morphed into the oppressed working class when they voted for the guy?

[loyalsister]

9. Are we to believe this is something new in Iowa?

My guess is that it's not and it just now got national attention. We have such candidates in a lot of red states. If they aren't welcome, they will join the GOP. I don't see how that helps advance progressive views. Any anti-choicers are in a minority within their caucus, it's not like they have a whole lot of power.

[boston bean]

10. Primaries are what is being discussed.

[musette_sf]

13. K to the MF'n R

[Egnever]

15. I can't decide if you are being played or playing people

Who the fuck cares about a mayor in bumfuck Egypt.

No one is suggesting that the Dem party drop it's support for abortion.


This is division for division sake over a fucking mayor.

Someone who has little or no impact whatsoever on abortion.

For that we are going to blow up the Democratic party?

This is some dumb ass BS

Congrats on ignoring the elephant in the room while fighting over a fucking mayor.

[stonecutter357]

16. I fuckin care ... why don't you?

[boston bean]

18. Doesn't even bother to get himself current and he also seemed very angry and upset with my OP.

[guillaumeb]

31. Because Bernie said...........................

and ...............something................independent....................all his fault.

[stonecutter357]

17. K&R!

[Starry Messenger]

19. k&r

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. What would Putin want the Democratic Party's position on reproductive rights to be?

[YoungDemCA]

65. I don't know, do you?

[FairWinds]

21. What if a Dem was Pro-choice . .

but also Pro-war?

This is not hypothetical. Check out
"Rep. Alcee Hastings has sponsored a bill to authorize President Trump to attack Iran."

What if they were Pro-corporate - and wanted to shift more tax burden to working families?

Is Choice the ONLY qualification to receive progressive credentials?

[boston bean]

22. I expect all dems to be pro human rights.

[FairWinds]

33. So pro-corporate is OK?

And no disrespect, but you did not answer the question . .

Is pro-war OK?

I voted and supported HRC, but her militarism alarmed me.

Not least because I am a long-term member of Veterans For Peace

[boston bean]

34. My experience is persons who are pro human rights are usually pretty good on other issues.

[Squinch]

39. I own my body. First and foremost. If someone is advocating taking that away from me, then

there is nothing more to talk about. It is non-negotiable.

I am heartbroken that people here on DU do not realize that I have a right to the ownership of my own body. I am heartbroken that people are playing this, "what if" nonsense, as if this is some kind of a game.

[FairWinds]

45. Dear Squinch . .

It is not a game . .

My Congressperson is Marcy Kaptur. She is great on trade and workers' rights,
but very disappointing to me on women's rights.

Should I stop supporting her?

And it looks like that Melo guy may have gotten a raw deal from the
pro-choice Dems . .

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-was-heath-mello-thrown-under-the-bus/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DAILY_2017_04_25&utm_term=daily

[Squinch]

46. I can't tell you what to do. If she did not support my right to my ownership of my body, she would

not have my vote.

[athena]

51. What if they were pro-slavery?

Would you still be defending them?

Or is it only when Democrats want to deny women's basic humanity that you feel the need to defend them? It's hypocritical to be against slavery, capital punishment, and war, while making excuses for Democrats who want to force women to undergo dangerous medical procedures against their will.

[Squinch]

54. Perfect. This exactly.

[LakeArenal]

23. I support pro-choice and am an atheist.

But my family has some very real Catholics. They can get behind most of the platform. Take birth control up to your eyebrows. Plan B.
Planned Parenthood is great. But they just can't say abortions are okay for anyone. It's even hard for them to accept them in a case to save the mother. A lot of them feel abortion is more often used as birth control than a medical emergency.

These are caring and loving people. Where do they vote? If anyone who doesn't support abortion ever can't be a Democrat, then who are they to the party?

Some of them who follow politics feel Dems are becoming as excluding as evangelicals.

[boston bean]

25. They don't have to have an abortion.

And they vote with the party they agree with most.

No woman should have to give up rights for someone elses religious reasons. Dems aren't the taliban. Repubs sort of are.

[LakeArenal]

28. They aren't asking for an abortion and they are not asking for anyone to give up anything..

They hear everyday, anyone who can't support abortion can't be a Democrat. Not vote your conscience. I was told by a poster lately that
democrats have a big tent but not an open one. That's what they hear and it feels like an invitation to not join up.

[Mariana]

29. If they are not asking for anyone to give up anything

then why would they have a problem supporting choice and voting for pro-choice candidates?

[boston bean]

30. Um. No. Anyone can vote for a democrat.

[Squinch]

47. This is kind of bullshit. No one is saying they have to "support abortion." We are saying they

cannot impose their beliefs about abortion on me. They don't have to lift a finger for abortion. They just have to get those fingers off my uterus and not think they have a say about what goes into it.

And nominally their opposition to abortion rights comes from a belief that "all life is sacred" and fetuses are people. Bad science, but let's let that go. If, to avoid "supporting abortion" they vote for the Republican, they are ALWAYS endangering a lot more lives than if they vote for the Democrat. Let's face it, looking at climate change alone, Republicans are going to kill us all.

So if their issue is that they are against killing things, then if they do the math they will STILL vote for the Democrat, even if they think abortion falls into that category.

I say this as someone who grew up in a very Catholic family and community. And as an aside, those staunch beliefs are actually quite mushy. In my Catholic college, a larger percentage of women by far had abortions than in any other cohort I ever belonged to in my life. As in, they had many TIMES the number of abortions. This was because they had little information about birth control, and because their families and communities would treat them badly if they were pregnant out of wedlock. Often the abortions were arranged by their parents, often pillars of the Catholic community.

[LakeArenal]

49. See this is exactly the problem for them and a little for me...

Bullshit. These are core beliefs of people. You call bullshit. Which is always helpful in a discussion of ideas. I will vote the way you want. But we are asked over and over why people don't vote. Not vote republican.. Just not vote. People are told their beliefs are bullshit. That you don't need their timid vote. That Catholic beliefs are mushy. If your beliefs are mushy fine. Don't qualify other peoples beliefs. It seems if you bully them enough with insults, they will come over to the "correct" side.

I seriously don't see these tactics any different than the enemy. I expect an onslaught of haters to chase me now.. Have at it.

[Squinch]

50. I wasn't saying their beliefs were bullshit. I was saying their argument against choice

and against a vote for the Democrats was bullshit, even in the context of their beliefs when those beliefs are sincerely held.

If they really believe, they will STILL vote for the Democrat, as I explained. If it is an issue of the sanctity of life, when they do the math even if they believe that abortion is murder, Republicans will still come out the losers. Republicans are the ones who create all our endless wars and all the policies that will lead to the earth becoming uninhabitable. They kill people through their policies on medicine, on poverty, on climate, on guns, on food availability, on regulation of natural resources, on food and medicine safety. Republicans show in EVERY one of their policies that they have not respect for the sanctity of life. EVERY ONE of their policies kills people. If it is a matter of who is better on the sanctity of life, Democrats win on balance even if you believe the church's teachings on abortion.

If they DON'T really believe what they say they believe - and I saw evidence that many did not when many of my catholic high school and college friends quickly aborted their pregnancies, and many of those abortions were paid for by their pillar-of-the-church parents - then they should not be fighting to prevent others from availing themselves of a service that they themselves use in large numbers.

And I suspect you will be waiting for a long time for that onslaught of haters.

[LakeArenal]

52. We're not talking about them voting Repugnant..

We talking about not voting. It can be said by not voting they are helping the repugs, I may agree. But they don't see it that way. They hear "abortion rights are non-negotiable". "If you don't vote for us horrible things will ensue that will be "their" fault." "If you can't vote for what we say, then you can't be a Democrat"

It's the feeling that one vote doesn't matter so why vote at all. Sure Kennedy was able to see past that. But these are ordinary, usually apolitical folks. They perhaps aren't as nuanced as you. For whatever reason, there are disenfranchised people out there that can't follow where this faction of Democrats lead.

That seems fine to some. Okay. But if you wonder why relatively sane, nice people who don't give much thought to politics don't vote. Here's a reason. Just one reason.

If you respond, I won't respond, I give you the last word. Have a good day.

[Squinch]

53. Gracious. You seem to be certain that I am fighting you when I am doing no such thing.

And yes, I will respond.

For ALL of us it is true that Democrats say, "If you can't vote for what we say you can't be a Democrat." The definition of a Democrat is someone who votes for Democratic candidates and Democratic values. One such value is that people own their own bodies. That is a central tenet of the Democratic party. If that is not something that a person can support then, in fact, they are not Democrats.

You can get mad at my saying that, but it is simply true. It is no less true for you or me than it is for the Catholics we are discussing.

If they are waiting for Democrats to say, "We'll make it easy for you. You believe abortion should be illegal, so we'll just take abortion off the table. So come on in to our big tent!" that's not going to happen. Firstly because that goes against a fundamental right of more than half the population to own their own bodies, and a defining value for Democrats is that people own their own bodies. Secondly, and just as a matter of practicality, if Democrats were to do that, they'd gain a few voters and lose a lot more voters from their most loyal base. It would be a politically stupid thing to do.

That's just the reality of the situation. My stating that reality is not me fighting you.

I think the reason these people stay home has little to do with all this. And it certainly isn't because Democrats are being mean to them. I think you stated the reason yourself: they don't give much thought to politics. And I think that will certainly change when they see what havoc their apathy has brought to their own lives.

[Orrex]

56. That is a terrific post from start to finish

[Squinch]

67. Well, thank you. But I don't think the poster I was talking to felt that way about it.

[Squinch]

38. I am not willing to give up my right to own my body because of them. I get what you are saying

because I was raised in a hyper Catholic environment. But what do we say to them? We say if you don't think it is morally right, don't have one.

Practically, I try to tell them that when birth control is very easily available, the numbers of abortions drop by a lot. So if they are serious, they should be advocating for easy and cheap access to birth control. Also, they know that women will get abortions whether they are legal or not. When abortions are illegal, women die getting them any way they can. So, to my Catholic friends I do try to point out that they are not "saving" any lives. They are just killing women. That's not that compelling to them, though, because they tend not to even realize how little regard they have for women. Even female Catholics.

The answer, though, is NOT for us to give up our value that says women own their own bodies.

By the way, I am a woman and I have lived a life, and I have never been in a cohort that availed itself of more abortions than in my Catholic high school and college. My wild years in New York City which began before the AIDS era? The number of my friends from those years who had abortions was about a tenth of the number from my Catholic college who had abortions.

[Atman]

57. Then help to educate them and/or start their own Religious Party.

The God Party would pay taxes, though. No more of this tax-exemption bullshit.

I'm tired of having to deal with Republican idiots who get voted in by one-issue voters, many of them Democrats. They are destroying the country, willing to bring everyone else down with them, just because their magic book supposedly tells them abortion is wrong (it doesn't say that). I'm sick of it. I'm sure your family is very nice. So is mine, and I generally enjoy our visits. But I am repulsed when our hear my very elderly in-laws vote for Trump and then complain about Medicare cuts. EDUCATE. Don't continually give in.

[LakeArenal]

59. That is a very rude response.

No one I am talking about is a Republican or any other kind of idiot. This is nothing about churches paying taxes. It's nothing about the magic book. And no it doesn't say a thing about abortion.

I have thought about this a great deal. So much so I wrote my State Senator to direct me where I am going wrong with my concerns for the Party and the Platform with regards to this issue. His response was very enlightening. If I thought you were really interested, I would post it for you.

In any event, there is no line in the sand about this issue. The party is open to all people of all faiths, no faiths, and ideals. Democrats in my state are open to any discussion on any issue with an open mind.

[Atman]

60. I'm very sorry you feel that way. I was replying directly to your comments.

You have a kind and loving Catholic family. That's cool. I did, too. And the other half were Protestant. Your post addressed how these were all very nice people, they just couldn't abide abortion. So...what are you saying? They voted for Trump dismantling the entire country because their personal religious beliefs don't accept a tenet which is not even mentioned in their magic...er, the bible?

Understand me clearly, please; I've been Catholic. I attended Catholic school briefly. Mom was Protestant, so I attended Protestant churches, too. Patriarchal family was Boston Irish Catholic. I KNOW me some religion! My very first "real" graphic design job back then was to design a fancy program for the Lutheran Church. I'm not just some religious hater, I've been there, done that, got the knee pads.

I'm thinking you don't really know what your concern is about. Your wonderful loving family is totally full of shit, and you don't quite know how to express it to them because you love them. But our party is totally off the rails in addressing your concerns.

I get that. I think lots of us get that. Welcome to the club.

[LakeArenal]

61. No, I have come to the conclusion that other people are full of shit,

especially ones who like to tell me what I don’t know about my own concerns. Also, my senator didn’t seem to be off the rails at all. But you seem to be. Keep up the bluster. You like it. It suits you.

[Atman]

62. Okay, speaking of "issues."

I don't believe we're very far apart. You accused me of being angry and then came back with that assault? Time to back off and take a deep breath. I am on your side. Why the anger and hatred?

[LakeArenal]

63. Ha ha ha

"I'm tired of having to deal with Republican idiots who get voted in by one-issue voters, "

" I am repulsed"

"I'm thinking you don't really know what your concern is about. Your wonderful loving family is totally full of shit"

"I KNOW me some religion"

"our party is totally off the rails in addressing your concerns. "


"You accused me of being angry and then came back with that assault?"


I feed your own words back to you and I'm the angry one.. Go ahead I yield.. I yield.. You can have the last word. I know you want it.

Thanks for the help.. Have a good day!!!

[Atman]

66. Seek professional help.

I fed your own words back to you. What is your problem? We seem to agree on everything but the use of bold face and italics. Jesus. Take a Xanax already.

[Initech]

26. It's called "don't let them frame the narrative".

The presidential election was stolen from us - fact. We got steamrolled in the Congressional and gubernatorial races - fact. But rather than spend the next two years drowning in our beers and tears trying to figure out where it went wrong - which is what is happening now, we should start going after these rat bastards hard. We are letting them frame the narrative as to why we lost, and that keeps us distracted, which keeps us fighting with each other, which ensures they will keep winning elections. It's the shit cycle that we've gone through since Reagan.

Want to stop that from happening again? What we need to do is get fucking organized with a clear narrative, a clear direction, and a clear mission statement. And that mission statement should be - we don't want another Trump. We don't want to have to waste time figuring out that our election was hacked by a foreign entity, and they're about to do it again. What we have to do is stop this shit from happening.

So the answer is simple: DON'T. LET. THEM. FRAME. THE NARRATIVE. We need to get our people out there and running at literally every level of government. And I mean every - even if it's something like a city comptroller's office or a school board election. Regardless of whether we win or lose these elections. Any pick ups are pick ups. We need to start flipping every office we can't get now, then we can start flipping districts, then we can start flipping states. Did you see that movie "Moneyball"? That's how they did it in that movie - little gains first, then big ones. But we can't let them get to us by making us fight over Bernie or Hillary, pro choice or anti choice, and so on and so forth. That's how they win.

[boston bean]

27. Sorry. I am going to fight anti choice politicians. If they aren't fought we lose rights.

Sorry it is pretty gd damn important.

[Squinch]

37. Yes we need to flip every office to our values. And women's rights to their own bodies

is one of our most important values. THEY aren't making us fight over pro choice or anti choice. WE ARE PRO CHOICE. For many Democrats, that is the definition of their Democrat-ness.

If you advocate taking away my right to my body we have nothing more to say to each other. If you are a woman you will likely understand this. If you are a man, think of it this way: if there was a politician who wanted to make you a serf who is attached to the land and owned by whomever owns the land, but that politician was a very progressive in every other way, would you vote for them?

This isn't a small issue. People own their own bodies. We stand up for this. Period. This is the heart of the Democratic value system.

This is non-negotiable.

[Initech]

40. No I agree 100%.

My point is we can't let them get to us. We need to stick to our principles if we're going to go after the big boss.

[Squinch]

41. Yes. I agree. But my heart is breaking that Liz Warren and Chuck Schumer are saying

"yeah, we'll tolerate anti-choice in our party," and posters on DU are saying that it is more important that candidates are "Progressive" whatever the hell that is than that they are pro choice.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. What we need to do is IGNORE those trying to divide our side.

The very premise that we need more anti choice candidates is just plain false. Should we tolerate a few? Maybe. Depends on cases. But do we *need* them? Nope.

K&R

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

35. Once upon a time, Democrats owned the House and Senate, ...

... and we griped about so-called "blue dogs". Because we are "big tent" with "little cliques".

One of the objectives of a primary would seem to be the selection of a Democrat who can beat the Republican, not to necessarily select the "purest" Democrat.

I'm not sure there's a clear connection between the presidential general election and a mayoral race.

I'd rather have pro-choice Dems winning, but most of all, I'd like Dems winning.

[Squinch]

36. EVERY ONE OF US needs to call Liz Warren and Chuck Schumer. Tell them to cut this shit the hell out.

[Cha]

44. Good idea, Squinch..

[countryjake]

42. I'm not certain why you think that's the lesson learned...

since I haven't heard much of the latest brouhaha that's gone down this week, but, I agree that whenever we decide to run with someone who does not fully support all of our hard-won Women's Rights, those candidates who would willingly compromise and concede any of those rights, just to "reach across the aisle" in the hopes of winning a few votes from conservatives, the result will almost certainly be perceived as a slap across the face to millions of progressive women.

When one considers that a goodly proportion of our population can no longer be inspired to even cast a vote, I think maybe that's where we should be looking for "lessons". Some of the severe regressive policies that have been handed down by our leaders and our legislators during the past twenty-five years have only further oppressed the already marginalized and disenfranchised people of our country and succeeded in beating down the working-poor men and women, Black men and women, all the minorities who rarely have had any say in this nation's government. Is it any wonder why so many throw their hands in the air, thinking why should they bother?

[Cha]

43. That's just someone's bad idea.. Good Point, boston

[hamsterjill]

58. I can't seem to master that lesson.

Not pro choice? Not a Democrat in my book, and certainly not worthy of my vote.

Choice is the first, the most basic and most important right for at least half the population and I will not back down.

[YoungDemCA]

64. What "lesson" are you referring to?

Thanks.