Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
56 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
No more NYT (Original Post) kpete May 2017 OP
Op-Ed pages are supposed to be diverse creeksneakers2 May 2017 #1
so if someone says the world is flat Skittles May 2017 #3
So what if they do say its flat? creeksneakers2 May 2017 #10
ridiculous Skittles May 2017 #11
Fox News it what it is creeksneakers2 May 2017 #24
No, it is what it is because hosts lie to present one spooky3 May 2017 #26
The Supreme Court has protected false speech creeksneakers2 May 2017 #41
YOU DON'T GIVE EQUAL TIME TO CRANKS Skittles May 2017 #49
Yeah, not a great argument. Sorry. WinkyDink May 2017 #14
Even op-eds should be fact checked sharedvalues May 2017 #28
It was fact checked creeksneakers2 May 2017 #39
New Yorker wld have rejected it sharedvalues May 2017 #46
Finally cancelled my NYT Worktodo May 2017 #47
Good for you sharedvalues May 2017 #48
This isn't an issue about which there is legitimately a diversity of opinion Spider Jerusalem May 2017 #4
One reason science is as good as it is creeksneakers2 May 2017 #7
Sorry, but... Spider Jerusalem May 2017 #9
All those things you say are true creeksneakers2 May 2017 #21
"All"? Do you suppose the Heliocentric Theory, e.g., is "up for challenge"? WinkyDink May 2017 #16
It would be difficult to beat it creeksneakers2 May 2017 #22
One big difference you're forgetting athena May 2017 #31
The analyses creeksneakers2 May 2017 #33
Do you have children? athena May 2017 #34
Wow! creeksneakers2 May 2017 #36
Do you also believe athena May 2017 #42
The responses to the editorial creeksneakers2 May 2017 #45
That is patently false. athena May 2017 #19
Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word all creeksneakers2 May 2017 #20
Solid, accepted results don't get disproven. athena May 2017 #25
Climate change was not established centuries ago creeksneakers2 May 2017 #27
That doesn't mean the NYTimes should give a platform to someone who is pushing pnwmom May 2017 #35
Did you read it? creeksneakers2 May 2017 #37
Yes, and I also read this: pnwmom May 2017 #40
Stephens and the scientists at your link and you creeksneakers2 May 2017 #43
Stephens isn't a climate scientist and lacks the educational background to debate pnwmom May 2017 #44
Stephens isn't debating climate change creeksneakers2 May 2017 #50
He's debating the CAUSES of climate change and how much human activity is a factor. n/t pnwmom May 2017 #51
I don't see that there creeksneakers2 May 2017 #54
He has a long history. For example: pnwmom May 2017 #55
Alarmist creeksneakers2 May 2017 #56
Not so diverse that they include FAKE SCIENCE. n/t pnwmom May 2017 #5
I read the Op-Ed creeksneakers2 May 2017 #23
"supposed to be diverse" tenderfoot May 2017 #15
I heard a report that said eating boogers is good for you. creeksneakers2 May 2017 #38
Yes. elleng May 2017 #32
It's a shame that scientists can't be fair and balanced dalton99a May 2017 #2
.. Cha May 2017 #6
Warped? NurseJackie May 2017 #8
At this point we can't save the planet... hunter May 2017 #12
Actually, the planet does not need to be saved. Caliman73 May 2017 #13
I'm a paleontologist and evolutionary biologist by inclination and much formal training. hunter May 2017 #17
Sad but true. Caliman73 May 2017 #18
"Much more likely we end up dead dirt that will never be sifted, eternally forgotten." CrispyQ May 2017 #53
We could theoretically use railguns to launch discs between us LittleBlue May 2017 #52
You're too smart to do such, elleng May 2017 #29
NYT must print facts, even in op-eds - so says New Yorker sharedvalues May 2017 #30

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
10. So what if they do say its flat?
Tue May 2, 2017, 04:39 PM
May 2017

They'd lose the argument. If the Times ran that it would be no reason to quit a great newspaper that does a lot of good.

spooky3

(34,527 posts)
26. No, it is what it is because hosts lie to present one
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:44 PM
May 2017

perspective. "Alternative facts" mislead viewers.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
41. The Supreme Court has protected false speech
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:38 AM
May 2017

The cure for misinformation is correct information. Its not taking away someone's chance to speak.

Skittles

(153,298 posts)
49. YOU DON'T GIVE EQUAL TIME TO CRANKS
Wed May 3, 2017, 01:14 PM
May 2017

IT MAKES YOU LOOK.......LIKE FOX NEWS

Fox News DOES have on the occasional "Democratic" punching bag

saying you like school vouchers is a debatable opinion - denying climate change is right up there with being a holocaust denier - it's just plain insanity

I am done here because WHAT is the point of wasting my time?

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
28. Even op-eds should be fact checked
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:47 PM
May 2017

If nyt wants an anti Trump Republican they should recruit David Frum or McMullin.

Some opinion writers there are very good.
Dowd, Douthat, Stephens all stink. And Friedman is non insightful and uninteresting
.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
46. New Yorker wld have rejected it
Wed May 3, 2017, 07:45 AM
May 2017

New Yorker said an article with this kind of mistruth would never have flown there. See my post above.

And corrections are not fact checking. In fact, editing and factchecking prevent corrections. Editing happens before publication. Corrections happen after.

Worktodo

(288 posts)
47. Finally cancelled my NYT
Wed May 3, 2017, 08:23 AM
May 2017

... after reading this thread. I'm all for alternative viewpoints but not intellectual dishonesty. The goal of the climate deniers has been to muddy the water-- so inclusion is enough to accomplish that goal. It also allows this person to claim that they have been published in the Times.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
48. Good for you
Wed May 3, 2017, 08:28 AM
May 2017

I just linked in a new​ thread an article from Beuter at TNR that does the best job of exploring this NYT question I have seen.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
4. This isn't an issue about which there is legitimately a diversity of opinion
Tue May 2, 2017, 01:16 AM
May 2017

that climate change is occuring and is caused by human activity is settled science. In terms of the science involved, it's like the NYT hired an opinion writer who devoted his first columns to "reasons black people are genetically inferior" and then when called on it their response was "but millions of people share his views!"

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
7. One reason science is as good as it is
Tue May 2, 2017, 07:34 AM
May 2017

is that its never settled. All established beliefs are up for challenge.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
9. Sorry, but...
Tue May 2, 2017, 08:53 AM
May 2017

at this point the question of whether human-caused carbon dioxide emissions are causing global warming is as settled as anything in science is. We know what the CO2 levels are, we know what they were before the industrial era because of ice cores, we know what the effect of large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere is, we know where all that carbon comes from. Arguing against anthropogenic climate change is like arguing against the idea that the Chicxulub meteor didn't cause the Triassic extinction. You might as well be saying "magnets, how the fuck do they work?"

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
21. All those things you say are true
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:15 PM
May 2017

But there are many factors for climate and we don't know that another feedback won't intervene. The vast weight of the evidence leads to a conclusion of climate change. We still don't know what we don't know.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
22. It would be difficult to beat it
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:17 PM
May 2017

But if somebody wants to try I don't think he should be silenced. At one point people who believed the Sun went around the Earth silenced the Heliocentrists.

athena

(4,187 posts)
31. One big difference you're forgetting
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:51 PM
May 2017

is that the people who believed the Sun went around the Earth did not base their beliefs on data and experimentation. They were not scientists. The conclusion that the Earth goes around the Sun was based on painstaking studies of huge amounts of astronomical data. If you believe there is any chance that will ever be questioned, let alone reversed, you might as well believe in fairy tales. Because the idea that any result in science can be disputed or reversed is a fairy tale that may sound good to the non-scientist but is completely false in real life.

Climate scientists, unlike those who claimed the Earth was the center of the Universe, are scientists. They are not basing their conclusions on religion, mythology, politics, or personal opinion. They are basing their conclusions on repeated and independent analyses of huge amounts of data.

athena

(4,187 posts)
34. Do you have children?
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:56 PM
May 2017

If so, that would explain your reluctance to believe the community of climate scientists and to instead believe right-wing politicians and their supporters in the oil industry.

ETA: Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Scientific_consensus

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
36. Wow!
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:26 AM
May 2017

You have me dead wrong. I believe in climate change.

Most of my objection here is about the effort to halt debate. As a good lib, I believe debate is a healthy thing.

If there is a reluctance to believe its among those here besides me. If you read the Op-Ed all the fury is about here it doesn't deny climate change exists. Its about the certainty of advocates who want to prevent climate change. Here, an opinion is mischaracterized by those who refuse to allow anything that doesn't 100% follow what they believe. I follow facts and evidence and am always open to new arguments. Those who want to silence are the ones who refuse to believe, or even listen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/opinion/climate-of-complete-certainty.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fbret-stephens&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=collection

athena

(4,187 posts)
42. Do you also believe
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:46 AM
May 2017

we should be debating things like slavery, forced sterilization for the poor, and child labor? Whether gravity is an attractive force? Whether disease is caused by evil spirits? Is there anything that is settled in your mind?

There are some things that don't need to be re-debated and re-tested endlessly. As I have tried to explain several times now, science could not advance if accepted results could not be accepted as foundations upon which to build new results. And, as a former scientist, I believe it is important to leave the science to the scientists. There is a reason it takes a Ph.D. and years of training to do scientific research. Even scientists in other fields, let alone laypersons, are incapable of contributing in a meaningful way. All they can do is waste the scientists' time by forcing them to explain basic things they lack the knowledge and training to understand.

It's sad that we have arrived at a point where no one respects training and credentials any more. Any guy on the street (and yes, I mean "guy", since it's always men who behave in this know-it-all fashion) thinks he can dismiss the findings of tens of thousands of climate scientists. As a physicist, I trust and respect the training, competence, and scientific integrity of the tens of thousands of climate scientists who say that climate change is real and is caused by human activity -- just as when I worked on my Ph.D. thesis, I did not try to re-test and re-establish the centuries of physics -- or the newer results that were only years old -- upon which my own results were built. Trusting science means trusting scientists, and having the humility to accept that a non-scientist is not the equal of a scientist when it comes to critiquing the work of said scientist. If a scientist makes a mistake, it will be another scientist who will discover this -- not some guy on the street, or some opinionated guy with a newspaper column. Science has its own way of weeding out bad results; it's what makes it so powerful. If you cannot trust science to do that, then you don't believe in science or the scientific method, period.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
45. The responses to the editorial
Wed May 3, 2017, 01:10 AM
May 2017

include a response from a scientist who also says its not scientists who are claiming certainty.

Scientists are not infallible. There is nothing wrong with skepticism.

I'm not debating climate change. I believe in it. The guy who wrote the editorial also does.

You are now saying science weeds out bad results. That's what I said to begin with.

I'm sorry that with no Ph.D I am wasting your time. I do believe in science, just not its infallibility.

Extreme examples have little to do with the matter at hand.

athena

(4,187 posts)
19. That is patently false.
Tue May 2, 2017, 08:35 PM
May 2017

Some things are settled. For example, no one is arguing today about whether the Earth is round and whether it goes around the Sun. While physicists are still looking for an elegant theory to explain the four forces of nature, no self-respecting scientist would question well-established theories that have been proven in their area of validity. For example, classical mechanics is still valid for low speeds and large sizes; relativity for high speeds and large sizes; quantum mechanics for small sizes, etc. And indeed, relativity produces the same results as classical mechanics at low speeds; quantum mechanics the same results as classical mechanics at large sizes, etc.

The reason science is as good as it is is that it relies on the scientific method -- i.e., on devising and conducting experiments to test the validity of hypotheses. There is a reason we spend so much time, money, and effort on experiments. We don't turn around and question the theories that have been verified with repeated experiments.

There is a reason almost all climate scientists believe in global warning. This conclusion is what is supported by all the available data.

(I have a Ph.D. in physics.)

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
20. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word all
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:09 PM
May 2017

But even the most extreme examples of certainty would be overturned if somebody could disprove them. At one time people were certain the Earth was flat and the Sun went around the Earth.

Since you are a Ph.D you probably know of many examples of conventional wisdom being overturned. Offhand I can think of one. I remember when millions suffered from ulcers and there was a big business in over the counter medicines for them. A scientist came along and found that most ulcers were caused by bacteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall

The scientific method is a wonderful thing. Even things that have been established by an experiments are up for peer review and debate. I'm not a scientist but I've seen that in journals.

Climate change can't be proven by the scientific method. Climate science relies on testing premises. If we knew everything about it there would be no further need for research. Continuous debate improves results.

athena

(4,187 posts)
25. Solid, accepted results don't get disproven.
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:39 PM
May 2017

When a theory has stood up to repeated experimentation, it will simply not be disproven. A better theory might be devised that explains that experiment and more, but the experimental result is not going to go away, and the theory that has stood up to such experimentation will not disappear. At least, that's the way it is in physics.

Note that I never said "conventional wisdom" is never overturned. I said well-established theories are never overturned in their area of validity. A well-established theory is not mere "conventional wisdom".

In the case of ulcers, you're not talking about a well-established theory supported by repeated experimentation. In other words, it was not the case that hundreds of experiments showed that ulcers were not caused by bacteria, only to be upended by one experiment that showed they were. (That being said, I am always skeptical of results in medicine. Things get very difficult when you start studying humans; it also becomes almost impossible to ensure that the scientist's personal biases don't affect the results. Moreover, the news media like to tout every tiny study, regardless of how statistically insignificant it may be, as the final word on that topic; they love to create the impression that something groundbreaking has happened.)

Your statements about the scientific method are not correct. If you're a physicist and start arguing that a well-established result be re-tested, you will simply not be taken seriously, unless there is something novel or challenging about the experimental method you're proposing, in which case it is really the method being tested rather than the theory. If established results were, as you claim, "up for peer review and debate", science could never advance. We would still be debating things that were established centuries ago.

There is a reason almost all climate scientists believe climate change is real. You can argue about the meaning of the word "proof", but it is extremely unlikely that the entire community of climate scientists are wrong about their interpretation of the data. That is hard to accept, considering what the consequences are likely to be, but all that means is that our human biases are pushing us very hard to believe that there must be something someone is missing. That's just wishful thinking.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
27. Climate change was not established centuries ago
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:46 PM
May 2017

You say its "unlikely" that all those people are wrong. I agree. But unlikely isn't the same as impossible.

pnwmom

(109,024 posts)
35. That doesn't mean the NYTimes should give a platform to someone who is pushing
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:57 PM
May 2017

personal beliefs that have no broad support in the scientific community.

pnwmom

(109,024 posts)
40. Yes, and I also read this:
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:37 AM
May 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/opinion/answering-bret-stephens-on-climate-science.html

Stephens is a neoconservative who's pretending that scientists are asserting certainty. They are not.

Stephens is setting up a straw dog and knocking it down. His scientific opinions shouldn't be given a platform at the NYTimes.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
43. Stephens and the scientists at your link and you
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:57 AM
May 2017

are all saying the scientists aren't as certain. Stephens blames the advocates for that. If you read the comments here a great deal of certainty is expressed, despite the scientists not expressing it. So you are the one erecting a straw dog. See for yourself. Read it again.

You first wrote: "That doesn't mean the NYTimes should give a platform to someone who is pushing

personal beliefs that have no broad support in the scientific community."


Where is he doing that? His message is one of opinion, not fact.

pnwmom

(109,024 posts)
44. Stephens isn't a climate scientist and lacks the educational background to debate
Wed May 3, 2017, 01:06 AM
May 2017

the conclusions of the vast majority of climate scientists worldwide. His degrees are in political science, not real science. He's as qualified to critique the conclusions of real climate researchers as Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
56. Alarmist
Wed May 3, 2017, 07:30 PM
May 2017

And a very warped view of the climate movement even if any of his examples are true. That didn't run in the NYT though.

tenderfoot

(8,438 posts)
15. "supposed to be diverse"
Tue May 2, 2017, 07:16 PM
May 2017

Then why aren't they publishing writers that insist eating human feces is good for your health? After all, it's just an opinion.

creeksneakers2

(7,484 posts)
38. I heard a report that said eating boogers is good for you.
Wed May 3, 2017, 12:30 AM
May 2017

I didn't quit listening to NPR because of it.

If somebody wants to claim eating feces is good I wouldn't boycott the publisher of the claim.

dalton99a

(81,707 posts)
2. It's a shame that scientists can't be fair and balanced
Tue May 2, 2017, 01:12 AM
May 2017

Last edited Tue May 2, 2017, 07:11 AM - Edit history (2)

and say that the earth is halfway between flat and round

hunter

(38,349 posts)
12. At this point we can't save the planet...
Tue May 2, 2017, 07:04 PM
May 2017

... but some crash landing scenarios are much preferable to others.

That's the scientific reality.

Pretending the plane isn't going down and praying to indifferent gods won't keep us flying. Flying is no longer sustainable.


Caliman73

(11,760 posts)
13. Actually, the planet does not need to be saved.
Tue May 2, 2017, 07:13 PM
May 2017

The planet has been around for 4.6 billion years. It has been baked, flooded, frozen, gotten the shit knocked out of it by asteroids and comets, been a carbon dioxide filled greenhouse, a sulfur dioxide filled wasteland, and much more.

What needs to be saved are our delicate asses. Humans, other animals, and plants can only survive if our environment is within a certain range. We are knocking it out of the range of habitability much faster than it might have done naturally. What we do is to save us, not this metal cored ball wrapped in molten rock, with a little bit of water and a tiny mantle of rock and some miles of gasses that allow us to exist. The planet will be fine in another few hundred thousand years, a geological blink of an eye. We will be gone in a century or two if we do not act to save our own asses now.

hunter

(38,349 posts)
17. I'm a paleontologist and evolutionary biologist by inclination and much formal training.
Tue May 2, 2017, 07:55 PM
May 2017

Our celebrated world civilization is a peculiar layer of trash in the geologic record. The anthropocene is real. We can't change that.

This planet has seen many innovative and disruptive species come and go. We humans are not the first and we won't be the last.

I don't expect we humans will be around a 100,000 years from now. If we are lucky our intellectual offspring, as dust in the winds of this solar system, will remember us.

Much more likely we end up dead dirt that will never be sifted, eternally forgotten.

Caliman73

(11,760 posts)
18. Sad but true.
Tue May 2, 2017, 08:03 PM
May 2017

I am not a paleontologist or evolutionary biologist... I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express

It irks me some when people say "save the planet".

The reality is save ourselves. Prolong our time on earth. Give our offspring and the next few generations a chance at a decent life by not destroying the delicate ecosystem in which we exist. The planet, or some rock from space, or some change elsewhere in the galaxy may do that eventually and we may be powerless to stop it, but we can control the fact that we spew greenhouse gasses, that we foul our water, that we are devastating the landscape by cutting down rain forests.

CrispyQ

(36,562 posts)
53. "Much more likely we end up dead dirt that will never be sifted, eternally forgotten."
Wed May 3, 2017, 06:43 PM
May 2017

Dark, but very poetic. And probably true.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
52. We could theoretically use railguns to launch discs between us
Wed May 3, 2017, 06:29 PM
May 2017

and the sun, at the gravitational equilibrium point. It would cost a fortune but only a small percentage of the sun's light needs to be blocked to stop global warming.

It's do-able, with enough resources.

But yeah, the NYT printing climate change skeptics is just evil.

elleng

(131,373 posts)
29. You're too smart to do such,
Tue May 2, 2017, 11:51 PM
May 2017

there is too much valuable reporting, columns, opinions to ignore.

(And I briefly read part of Stephens column today; it was rational, NOT a 'flat-earther,' but open to discuss.)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»No more NYT