Trump, who says he's Presbyterian, asks 2 Presbyterian ministers if Presbyterians are Christian

[Hamlette]

Two days before his presidential inauguration, Donald Trump greeted a pair of visitors at his office in Trump Tower. As a swarm of reporters waited in the gilded lobby, the Rev. Patrick O'Connor, the senior pastor at the First Presbyterian Church in Queens, and the Rev. Scott Black Johnston, the senior pastor of Manhattan's Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, arrived to pray with the next president.
. . .

"I did very, very well with evangelicals in the polls," Trump interjected in the middle of the conversation -- previously unreported comments that were described to me by both pastors.

They gently reminded Trump that neither of them was an evangelical.

"Well, what are you then?" Trump asked.

They explained they were mainline Protestants, the same Christian tradition in which Trump, a self-described Presbyterian, was raised and claims membership. Like many mainline pastors, they told the President-elect, they lead diverse congregations.

Trump nodded along, then posed another question to the two men: "But you're all Christians?"

"Yes, we're all Christians."

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/politics/state/donald-trump-religion/?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_article

I suspected as much but why the hell did all those evangelicals vote for him? Abortion?

[eleny]

1. I can't stand it anymore

.......... ...........

[txwhitedove]

9. Right there with you, took the wailing words right outa my mouth.

[LuckyLib]

36. OMG, you, me, and millions of others.

[HAB911]

2. Sold their souls to the Devil for a SC seat

[Crash2Parties]

49. Most of them will still say it was worth it.

Just to be able to legislate Christian values on women & LGBT people.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

3. jeebus

[duncang]

4. A lot of those voters who I.D. as evangelicals don't even go to church

Also you could put a "r" on a slug and they are so brainwashed they would vote for it.

[Alice11111]

17. Got that right! I can name about 30 on the spot& I live

in a blue state. Ignorant and hypocritical. In some cases, they are good people, but afraid to get informed. Very threatened by liberals, NYT, science....When you built your house on shifting sand, you better not move.

DT is neither evangelical nor Presbyterian. God, so stupid. Geez, my daughter took Comparative Religions in HS and college. I knew that in grade school. What world has his head been in for 70 years.

[winstars]

5. Yikes, an email server in the basement sounds pretty quaint now... WTF happened to the USA?

[Texin]

10. Evangelicanism.

[defacto7]

30. Greed, apathy, complacency..

Dominionism, entertainmentism, tunnel-visionism, alternate education, demonization of science and reason, lack of empathy, fear, narcissism, magical thinking, loss of tolerance ... to name a few..

[Crash2Parties]

50. That's what Texin said.

[Caliman73]

6. They voted for him for the same reason many did...

He used rhetoric which signaled that he would support Christian Dominionism. Whether he understands it or not, he said it. He goes after Muslims and Jews. He talks about "other" and then he pals around with conservative Christians. He couldn't tell the Bible from his asshole, but he said the right things and people heard it like they wanted to.

We see those things and we can see what a liar and hypocrite this guy is but they choose not to see it because they think that he "understands" them.

[John1956PA]

7. I'm a graduate of an evangelical Presbyterian college, and I'm not sure I understand the distinction

I am not not religious. I chose my alma mater on the basis of academics and convenience. I know little about main stream Presbyterianism and how it differs from evangelical teachings. My general impression has always been that main stream Protestantism is "low-gear" evangelicalism.

I can almost see how 45 was taken aback when the two men said they were not not evangelical. Of course 45 was inept by posing the (rhetorical?) question, "But your're all Christians?"

Furthermore, 45 was foolish in the first place to turn the purpose of the religion-themed encounter to self-glorification by bragging about his strong polling numbers among evangelicals.

[Texin]

14. They all vary by synod.

HOWEVER, as mainline Christian churches go, the Presbyterian is about the most low key and un-radicalized [sic] as any out there. It'll depend on the congregation and the pastor(s) at the helm, and the part of the country in which they're situated, but for the most part, it is the most diverse of any of the major denominations. Or at least it was when I used to go. And my family had Baptists, Methodists, Church of Christ, et al and I attended various services in my childhood with my family members. I don't go to Church any longer. I am no longer a religious person. I actually studied Biblical history and the history of the Levant and the more I read and absorbed, the less and less I believed. And when you actually are in classes in which the professors who were Divinity graduates and later became ministers can barely contain their own skepticism about it any longer, it definitely affects the beliefs one has been brought up to believe. I continued studying and reading well beyond college and, finally, in my 50s came to the conclusion that religion is a man made construct. I don't try to persuade others to believe as I have come to, but I'm not shy about backing proselytizers up with the firm statement that "I am atheist, so don't waste your time trying to preach to me or convert me."

[Dave Starsky]

25. You don't sound like an atheist to me.

It really sounds like you've experienced and thought a lot about this. You don't seem opposed to the idea of a "creator", whoever or whatever that is. You just are opposed to the idea that some particular sect of people has ownership of how that "creator" should be recognized or appreciated. I completely agree with you on that.

[OldHippieChick]

16. Color me skeptical

eom

[Duppers]

41. Oh ye of little faith. "The Evangelical Presbyterian Church has a number of distinctives .."

The Evangelical Presbyterian Church has a number of distinctives that set us apart ..."

https://www.epc.org/distinctives

My f.i.l. used to belong, also a couple of EX-friends. All nuts.


Not trying defending the orange sphincter, only the poster above.

- an old atheist

[IronLionZion]

20. Here's what I found

5 Beliefs That Set Evangelicals Apart From Other Christians

1. They point to a specific, personal conversion experience in which they are "born again" or "saved." According to PrayerFoundation.com, "individuals (above an age of accountability) must personally trust in Jesus Christ for salvation."

2. Evangelical Christians believe in the Bible as God's inspired Word to humankind, perfect in truth in the original text. It is the "final authority in all matters of doctrine and faith — above all human authority," according to EvangelicalBeliefs.com.

3. Evangelicals believe the work of Jesus on the cross, through his death and resurrection, is the only source of salvation and forgiveness of sins. PrayerFoundation.com makes it clear that salvation is through faith alone.

People can do nothing to earn their way to heaven. Instead, as EvangelicalBeliefs.com points out, believers do "good works in grateful response to our pardon, not to cause it."

4. Evangelical Christians are strongly motivated to share the gospel either one-on-one or through organized missions. Emphasis is placed on the Great Commission's call to share with the world the Christian message of salvation through Christ, and to "be publicly baptized as a confession of faith," according to PrayerFoundation.com.

5. Most, though not all, evangelicals believe there will be a rapture in the end times where the church will be "caught up with Christ before the Great Tribulation, leaving nonbelievers behind to suffer on Earth," states the Pew Research Center. This idea has gained attention through the "Left Behind" book series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, and the related movies.

So with their faith in the Bible and Jesus, evangelical Christians may seem similar to other Christian denominations, even bearing some of the same names. But their unique beliefs and interpretations of Christianity make them a distinct worldwide movement, emphasizing the "born again" experience, the infallibility of the Bible, salvation by faith in Jesus alone, the need to evangelize or spread their message, and the rapture of the church in the end times.

http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/evangelical-christians-beliefs/2015/04/02/id/636050/

Not sure what Presbyterians believe

[John1956PA]

27. Thank for posting those points, which match those which were taught in my college Bible classes.

The college from which I was graduated is affiliated with particular denomination Presbyterianism which is very fundamentalistic. That denomination forbids the singing of hymns at its worship services because the only words fit for expressing worship are those of the psalms appearing in the Bible. Yes, psalms are sung at worship services, but the singing is without musical accompaniment.

As for rapture dogma, the fundamentalist denomination of which I speak did not adhere to that line of thought, at least when I attended its college many years ago. I had no idea what rapture theology was until I began hearing about it in the 1990s.

I have next to no idea what goes on in so-called main stream Presbyterian churches. However, I have heard that the Sunday school classes can manifest a strong anti-Democratic Party tone.

[Chiyo-chichi]

32. Your alma mater is affiliated with the Presbyterian Church in America, as opposed to PC(USA), yes?

I've attended a "Reformed Presbyterian" (PC in America) church, but am a member of a PC(USA) church.

As others have said, the political views of PC(USA) can vary depending on location & other factors, but PC(USA) is generally viewed as being liberal. There's certainly no anti-Democratic tone in classes as my church. It's the opposite, if anything.

Just as a random sampling, I checked the Sunday School classes at National Presbyterian in D.C., a PC(USA) affiliated church.
Trump could have attended this Sunday School class just a couple of weeks ago:

May 28 – Todd Green
Who is My Neighbor? Hospitality in a Climate of Fear
Todd Green is Associate Professor of Religion at Luther College and author of The Fear of Islam: An Introduction to Islamophobia in the West. He is completing a year-long Franklin Fellowship at the State Department.

[John1956PA]

44. Thank you for your question and comments.

Thanks for reading my post, asking your question and providing your comment.

My alma mater is affiliated with the Reformed Presbyterian of North America. The Bible teachings offered by the college are very fundamentalistic.

I am offering hearsay when I state that the Sunday school class at a particular local Presbyterian USA church manifested anti-Democratic party tone at least at one point in the recent past. Perhaps that tone, if it did exist, came from members of the class (who are all elderly) rather than from the instructor. As an aside, I was a member of the local Roman Catholic parish for decades. The anti-Democratic propaganda published in the Pittsburgh dioceses's weekly newspaper during the run-up to the 2004 presidential election was appalling.

[Big_K]

34. No music in my Church of Christ growing up...

Because there was no music accompanying the singing in the Bible.

[defacto7]

31. Originally the Church of Scotland...

There are several breakaways of the Presbyterian Church that range from extreme evangelical conservative to quite liberal.. Evangelical Presbyterian, Southern Presbyterian, and a couple others. Some of these are so different they end up excommunicating each others members over the usual sexuality and abortion issues. Quite a mish-mash.

[Orrex]

8. And he'll be praised for openly discussing his faith

[suffragette]

11. He doesn't even know what he claims to be.

[TexasProgresive]

12. Evangelicals voted against abortion, same sex marriage and many pro gun.

[cwydro]

13. He's a moron.

I wish I'd wake from this nightmare.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. They should have told him they're actually Muslim.

Last edited Mon Jun 5, 2017, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Just for shits and giggles.

Of course, he'd probably deport them.

[OldHippieChick]

19. I actually know Presbyterian pastors who would get some guilty pleasure out of doing that

but they would out themselves w/in minutes. This would be the temptation they might not be able to resist. LOL!

[spanone]

18. i imagine there's an audible groan from god when trump walks into a church

[IronLionZion]

21. I expected the Bible to burst into flames on his inauguration day

as soon as he put his hand on it

[bucolic_frolic]

22. It's confirmation that churches and casinos have a lot in common

pass the money and fill the collection plate, will ya?

It's all about tax-free and skimming the cash

Televangelism was never this good

[japple]

39. Churches and whorehouses, too, though I hesitate denigrate whorehouses

in the same breath with churches. At least there is some pleasure in one of those houses.

[murielm99]

23. Where I grew up,

the Presbyterians were all rich people. I know that is not true everywhere. And some congregations are quite liberal.

The word 'evangelical' is another one that we have allowed the right to take over and redefine. Anyone who follows the Four Gospels is evangelical. Why do we keep on letting them screw around with our language and word meanings?

[exboyfil]

24. I am not sure why Presbyterian Pastors would not

self identify as evangelical. All Christians should be evangelical. Evangelical is good news - the gospel. Maybe you can make a case for the double predestination not being evangelical (saved by grace through faith), but I attended a Cumberland Presbyterian church for five years - it was evangelical.

The largest branch of another mainline denomination (mine) has Evangelical in the title. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. It contains political beliefs across the entire spectrum. We try to keep politics out of the pulpit and the classroom.

[JHan]

26. Not the first time a legit article about Trump comes across like something from The Onion lol

[world wide wally]

28. I suspected as much but why the hell did all those evangelicals vote for him? Abortion?

You have to understand that the religious right has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion.
It is simply a wing of the Republican party that needs to say "God is on our side" because they know they are full of shit and wrong about behaving in a "Christian" manner.

[Xolodno]

29. Evangelicals believe they have to actively convert....

...being a Protestant doesn't mean you are automatically an evangelical. Evangelicalism is an idea that took off in the 1800's with the view that you had to actively convert. And they base this belief erroneously due to mis-interpreted Bible reading. Because the Apostles evangelized they think everyone has to. Despite the fact its written explicitly in the Bible that only some members are given the gift to evangelize...not all.

Plus, they really didn't have to work that hard to convert people. Many already liked Judaism, due to the fact, once a week you got a day off, only had one God to serve and the holidays were like vacations as opposed to expensive pilgrimages that required a significant donation to the temple on top of it. But Judaism at the time placed heavy restrictions on conversion that made it either impossible or economically costly.

Christianity ended the prohibitive restrictions and even offered a transition period. Contrary to popular belief, early Christianity did keep the Jewish Laws, for example, pork was still forbidden, however, pork was a cheap protein food source and many owned swine. So you could convert, but it was expected you would transition off of swine as part of your diet. Obviously that idea failed, particularly when gentile Christianity began to oppress Jewish Christianity when it achieved imperial recognition.

..whoops...I'm rambling on here...

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

33. My closest friends these days

happen to belong to one of the Presbyterian churches in town. Apparently there are several different branches of Presbyterians, and they're with the most liberal branch. There's a strong commitment to social justice, and I volunteer with that church group to help feed the homeless.

I'm not a believer in the way needed to be a member of any church, but I am more than comfortable with these people and this specific church.

And they are horrified that Trump self-identifies as Presbyterian.

[ladym55]

35. Why did the White Evangelicals vote for the Trumpster Fire?

The reasons are many. Living in an area where THREE large nondenominational Christian churches make their influence felt I have learned quite a bit. First, White Evangelicals are really (really) afraid of "the other" (like African-Americans, Jews, Muslims, etc.). I heard one Evangelical mother say in horror, "We have to move. There are blacks in my daughter's kindergarten class, and her teacher is a JEW!!" They did move to an all white, all Protestant rural area. These large churches all have presences in more affluent white communities.

Then there is the abortion thing. Evangelicals think all life is precious and that abortion is murder. HOWEVER, they don't think they should support a "life-style," so they also aren't keen on helping those precious little lives once they are born. All those little ones should pull themselves up by their tiny little bootstraps. So all must vote PRO LIFE (or as I say, pro fetus, but I digress)

And let's not forget raging homophobia. The bible says marriage is between one man and one woman all the way back to Adam and Eve. (Actually, it doesn't, and hello, were the folks in the Old Testament varied in their sexual practices, but again, I digress.) The pastor often makes a huge deal about those Christian values that are foundational and can't be questioned because of their biblical basis, so one gets all sorts of lectures about how we can't "cherry pick" what we want from the bible--as they cherry pick one verse from Leviticus and a select few from Paul to discriminate.

But the biggest thing is that white Evangelicals do not question the authority of their pastor or any of the goons like James Dobson or Jerry Falwell, Jr. They said that the vulgar talking yam was a Christian, so he must be a Christian. No question. Remember that all are sinners! It's just that Republican sinners can be forgiven, and Bill Clinton needs to go to hell.

Oh, and many evangelicals do not consider mainline Protestants to be Christian, so many would not consider those wimpy Presbyterians Christians.

[C_U_L8R]

37. Has Trump been to church since being elected?

And I'm not talking about the house of worship called Golf.

[Buckeyeblue]

38. I would argue that evangelicals are not christians.

They are a new religions based on their latest whims.

[BarbD]

40. Trump's ignorance shows no bounds.

He was born a White Anglo Saxon Protestant and his religious education never got beyond first grade.

[wildeyed]

42. Either mind-blowing ignorance or dementia.

Not sure which is worse.

[tanyev]

43. And then he asked them if they had any of those beautiful little crackers.

[joanbarnes]

45. I can't stand the 'fake' Christian crowd.

[keithbvadu2]

46. Political Christians rather than Christians of faith.

Political Christians rather than Christians of faith.

Like today's evangelical/religious right supporters, Trump is a Political Christian, not a Christian of faith.

Evangelicals/religious right are easily able to spin their beliefs for political expediency.

The Donald who does not have to ask Jesus for forgiveness.

Trump: Drink my little wine, have my little cracker

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/08/13/donald-trump-religion-serfaty-dnt-erin.cnn

[DesertRat]

47. K&R

[Greensix1]

48. Poor fool

Trump is just another poor fool, too stupid to understand how little he knows about anything. Too selfish to care about others. Too illiterate to be able to understand a five paragraph essay. A perfect Republican.

[CentralMass]

51. Doh !

[NanceGreggs]

53. I'm now wondering ...

... if Trump asked the Pope if he was Catholic.

He'd always heard people ask the question: "Hey, is the Pope Catholic?" - a question he'd heard spontaneously posed as often as the "does a bear shit in the woods" query.

So when Donnie finally got to meet the Pope, he figured he'd ask him and get the definitive answer once and for all.





And now I'm wondering who stopped him from tweeting that HE had finally gotten the answer to an age-old question that had been baffling mankind for centuries.

[mdbl]

54. until Twump was elected..I never knew evangelicals

espoused grabbing unsuspecting women by their genitals, paying low wages to workers, not paying bills to contractors, multiple divorces, taking away peoples' healthcare, throwing senior citizens under the bus. They are such a noble bunch of hypocrites. Obviously, they DON"T understand who the book of Matthew was speaking to when it calls them 'Blind guides, blind fools'

[Towlie]

55. He only claims to be Presbyterian because it's an anagram for "best in prayer."