Narcissistic or Borderline?

[GetRidOfThem]

Grew up with a borderline mother (diagnosed at such). Now I wonder - is Agent Order narcissistic, or borderline? I am leaning towards the latter (I am not a shrink). Other opinions?

[easttexaslefty]

1. People with BPD

are narcissistic.

[Drahthaardogs]

2. What makes you think they are mutually exclusive?

Borderline is often associated with comorbidites.

[GetRidOfThem]

8. BPD is worse.

If you go through treatment, if it succeeds, you go Borderline -> Narcissitic -> normal (Adler of Harvard), i.e. the difference, as I am told, is that borderline is worse than narcissistic. It can take 7+ years to go through treatment.

Narcissists, and I have met many, know how to self preserve. We don't see that here.

I'm not a shrink, but I had to go through all of this going through my own family.

Yes, there is co-morbidity, and narcissism is deeply related to borderline. I think, though, there is a sequence through the disabilities.

I think Agent Orange is sicker than malignant narcissism. We are in for a ride...

[MontanaMama]

3. I also grew up with a borderline mother

And my psychologist says he is a malignant narcissist. He fits ever single criteria on the list.

[Sugar Smack]

4. I think he's Narcissistic and Borderline.

Antisocial, Demented, spoiled, compulsive, reckless, has daddy issues, and a sadist. For openers.

[iamateacher]

5. Both with a healthy dose of sociopath

They are not mutually exclusive...

[politicat]

6. Cluster B overlaps a lot.

I grew up with two of them (Histrionic and malignant narcissist) and dated one borderline. A lot of the behaviors are similar and overlap on some aspects. Histrionic and borderline are probably a more gendered dx than some of the others in B, just because certain behaviors are often gender-socialized.

Most narcissists have the same black and white, love or hate relationships that borderlines do, and use a lot of the same relationship manipulative strategies that histrionics use, and have the empathy/theory of mind deficits that the anti-social range has.

I am a shrink, though I don't handle personality disorders at all, and personally, I don't venture a diagnosis. While I do see significant and long-lasting behavior that is consistent with a Cluster B personality disorder, there's one diagnostic criteria I don't see, and that one is critical. For a person to be diagnosed with a personality disorder, their behavior must cause them distress and difficulty and they must recognize that their behavior or thoughts are maladaptive, intrusive or cause problems. As far as I can tell, the Mango Mendacity is perfectly content with his behavior, thinks it's the best way to be, and has never felt a moment's distress over his actions or behavior.

[TexasBushwhacker]

10. So causing others distress and difficulty isn't enough

Isn't it an indication of some kind of personality disorder for someone to be a pathological liar and compulsively steal from his vendors through non payment?

In any case, we quickly forget that he's gone through at least 4 bankruptcies that we know of with his businesses. So did the problems in his businesses stem from his personality disorder? Did he take unreasonable risks because of his narcissism? Probably. Does he have difficulty in relationships? 3 marriages would indicate yes.

[politicat]

11. Unfortunately, yes.

There are some conditions when a person can get a diagnosis without the self-awareness of their own problem -- arrests and convictions are the big ones. But the thing about diagnostics and treatment is the person has to want treatment. And someone who is so deep in their own worldview that they cannot take responsibility for their own actions is someone who cannot be treated.

I have to be very specific in the terms I use. That's why I will call him a narcissist, but do not apply any of the Disorder terms to him. His behavior -- the theft of services, the callous disregard for other people's money, his publicly documented problems in his marriages, even the NDA/loyalty requirements -- all indicate behavior consistent with narcissism. At minimum, they suggest exceptional selfishness and little respect for basic social contracts.

What other people call him is up to all y'all. What those of us with licenses say is more constrained.

[G_j]

7. Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

https://www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/bpd-narcissistic-personality-disorder-differences.html

Borderline Personality Disorder vs. Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Similarities and Differences

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) are two personality disorders you wouldn’t necessarily associate with each other. But because the two disorders share the same “B cluster” grouping in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) – including erratic, dramatic, and emotional behaviors – they may be confused.

BPD and NPD actually have a rate of co-occurrence of about 25 percent, according to the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI). Though the two personality disorders share some traits, they are distinct disorders with their own set of diagnostic criteria.

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) characterizes Borderline Personality Disorder as, “a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self-image, and behavior.” The Mayo Clinic describes Narcissistic Personality Disorder as, “a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration.”

..more..

[MoonRiver]

9. People can, and frequently do, have both diagnoses.