On Traveling to North Korea.

[MineralMan]

Parents: Don't let your children go there on church trips, "cultural exchanges," or for any other reason.

Young Idealists: Don't travel to North Korea. They don't like you there, and you aren't going to change their minds.

Sports Role Models: Don't go to North Korea. You make people think it might be safe to travel there.

Everyone: Just don't do it. Go somewhere else, instead. Use your heads, please.

[Takket]

1. Sad that this is not blindingly obvious

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, sad, indeed. I can think of no reason for any US Citizen

to visit North Korea for any reason. Kim Jong Un relishes the idea of putting them in prison to use as negotiating tools. Entering that country is simply one of the stupidest things anyone could do right now --- or anytime.

I've never understood people's predilection for walking into highly dangerous places. And North Korea certainly qualifies.

[Sunlei]

124. to visit relatives? I know some people who visited last year along with their family member who

works for our government.

[BobTheSubgenius]

125. I liken it to "kamikaze sushi."

Made from the puffer fish, it can easily kill you if improperly handled and prepared. Very macho, very IDGAF.

I also remember a company from the 80s called Holidays For Maniacs. who would arrange...ummm....exotic holidays like traveling to a war zone, or spending some time in an African prison.

On the upside, there is no additional fees for going to NK, no health screening, and you might get a flight home from your government.

[shraby]

2. I agree completely. Mr. Shraby will say, what was that person doing there anyway? Don't they realize

it's really dangerous to visit some countries? Are they that stupid?

If they lose their freedom or even their lives, they shouldn't have been there in the first place. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[Alice11111]

113. In retaliation, and for safety, the US should ban travel to North Korea, at least for now.

Of course, Eric Bolling on Fox wants to bomb it. Idiot. At the least, it would wipe out South Korea too.
We need to respond though. Dennis Rodman hasn't helped, trying to make this sadistic dictator look cool.

[maddiemom]

134. A travel ban that makes sense,

The U.S. should cut all ties with Korea.

[jberryhill]

3. About a dozen people die visiting the Grand Canyon each year

Every place has its risks for people who do stupid things.

[MineralMan]

7. People die for all sorts of reasons. Mostly

those people didn't consciously put themselves in danger, though. You can die, as many do each year, crossing the street in a crosswalk with a green light.

There are good reasons to visit the Grand Canyon, and observing the signs, safety rails and other precautions will probably mean you have an awesome trip.

There are no good reasons for a non-governmental US Citizen to visit North Korea. Not a single one. Why would anyone do that?

[jberryhill]

12. There are "no good reasons" for a lot of things

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

People do stupid stuff at the Grand Canyon, fall in, and die.

What is the "good reason" for people to do this for fun:



People die bungee jumping all of the time. There's no "good reason" for a lot of things people do to get their kicks.

[MineralMan]

15. Indeed. Bungee jumping is on my list of things

I definitely will not be doing. A trip to North Korea is another one of those things.

[jberryhill]

17. Or meth, or opioids - both of which are considerably more popular

...and a heck of a lot cheaper, and much more of a risk to anyone within earshot of a post at DU.

If someone has $XXXXX to burn going somewhere awful, that's their problem.

[Corvo Bianco]

70. You trying to say we're all going to die or something?

[jberryhill]

72. People do all kinds of risky things. It's not a big deal

You go to Disney World, you make sure you are buckled when you get on Space Mountain. Otherwise, you might die.

You go to DPRK, you don't do stuff to a poster with Kim Jong Un on it. Otherwise, you might die.

People die from various entertainments and amusements all of the time. I can't see why people are so upset over this one.

It's not as if someone accidentally finds themselves in North Korea. It takes considerable effort and expense to get there.

The death rate from climbing Everest is comparable.

[defacto7]

107. I say live and let live...

It's a person's right to choose how they live or die. Questions do arise with this philosophy though. For instance if a US citizen chooses to go to a politically dangerous place and is arrested, should the US fight or negotiate their release? Pay the bill? It was the person's choice, maybe they should carry the consequences of their actions. If they put other Americans in jeopardy or create a political problem that undermines the US should they just be abandoned? It was their choice. That's what the thrill was about. Let their choice carry them the distance.
There's a difference in being risky doing whatever gets ones rocks off, but then there's foolhardy at the expence of others and a nation. Live and let live doesn't work if only applied in one direction. People can do what they want. But not if it screws up other peoples lives.

[jberryhill]

108. Does the US pay my traffic tickets abroad?

The US has no, zip, zero responsibility for trouble people get themselves into.

If I go climb Mount Everest, is the US going to come fetch my sorry ass if I get into trouble? What the fuck for?

[defacto7]

109. you missed the point. nt

Think of what does affect other people, nations, whatever. I don't give a damn about what people do that doesn't affect other people. I do care if my actions cause a political conflict or costs family members millions because of my fun fun thrill ride choice.

[karynnj]

139. I think the reason people are upset is that they see an articulate father grieving over his lost son

His son is portrayed as a golden boy anyone would be proud of calling their son. The father is being used at this point. Remember, though his son was arrested 17 months ago - it was just a few weeks ago he learned he was in a coma that he was completely unlikely to ever recover from even to the point of having a very marginal life. The family has had to reconcile their vision of him as a bright promising healthy 22 year old to that. I can not image the total pain that causes.

It also seems that they did not dissuade him from going. Now, unless he needed their money to pay for that trip, I suspect they might not have been able to dissuade him from going. As he was in China for his study abroad program, the effort and expense were unfortunately not too high. There were so many fascinating places - in China - that he could have gone to instead. I assume that the attraction of North Korea was that the risk made it an adventure. Remember that this was after the highly publicized seizure of two young women reporters, who were released when Bill Clinton met with Kim Jong Il, the father of Kim Jong Un - who was known to be far more volatile?

I suspect that the father's anger with Obama in addition to the greater justified anger toward NK is because he is really second guessing everything HE could have done. He attacks the Obama administration for advising him to stay quiet. Yet, the story of his son's arrest and conviction were well covered - as was the story of another young man, Matt Miller. Here is a Newsweek article about him as one of three Americans then in prison published in November 2015. http://www.newsweek.com/matthew-todd-miller-speaks-about-isolation-north-korean-imprisonment-273390 There was ample coverage of the arrests, convictions and the dificulty of the US getting them released.

In November 2014, Obama sent James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, to get Bae and Miller out. This was just a few months before this man made the terrible decision to go to North Korea. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/north-korea-release-kenneth-bae-matthew-todd-miller

The father needs a scapegoat to blame -- so he goes with the tour company saying it was "safe" and the Obama administration that did not succeed in getting him out -- maybe BECAUSE he was in a coma soon after being convicted. Bill Richardson has spoken of having met with the NKs at least 20 times and getting nowhere. Emotionally, it is likely too painful to assume that he or his son had any responsibility.

[Sunlei]

156. Thanks, very good points. Understandable the families pain & them wanting ANY Admin. to do more.

The Republicans president always takes advantage of a family tragedy & uses it for himself.

[karynnj]

157. The right wing is absolutely hypocritical about it

They attacked Obama/Kerry for the release of people, they had long demanded had to released by Iran, claiming that returning held Iranian money was paying ransom and - at the same time - attacked them for not getting Bob Levinson, who disappeared in Spring 2007, of whom the Iranians claimed they did not have any information. (Note neither Obama or Kerry made the kind of disgusting comment that Trump made suggesting that he would be home had something been done earlier.)

[pangaia]

35. The New York Philharmonic played in DPRK some years back..

But.. that's a little different.....

By chance I just saw this..

http://www.korea-dpr.com/ LOL!!

[rpannier]

106. I went a dozen years ago

Before they closed the Industrial Complex at Gaeseong (Kaesong - for the old time spellers)

[Alice11111]

114. Your argument is inane. These are not comparable experiences.

[George II]

126. At the hands of the government?

[Historic NY]

5. Lastly listen to the State Dept. when they post an explicit warning.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes. The US Government does not have a responsibility to

go and rescue you if you go someplace that you've been warned not to go. There is no U. S. Embassy in North Korea. There is nobody to help you if you are arrested and imprisoned there. We do not have diplomatic relations with that country.

So, if you take it upon yourself to go to such a place, you should know that you're completely on your own. That travel organization or church group or whatever will also not be able to help you. They'll go home without you.

If you do still decide to go, keep your hands to yourself and govern your words very carefully. Don't do stupid things like steal some poster or curse the name of the leader of that country. If you must go, go, but keep your mouth shut and behave yourself.

Still, don't go at all. That's my advice.

[Sunlei]

127. No but the US government shouldn't block the world from reading their newspapers, communicating

with their citizens. Same with countries like Iran, Syria.. when any American clicks google news all those countries are absent from the drop down menu!

The world was a hell of a lot better place when (back in the day) were could play online social games with North Koreans, Chinese government officials and Russians. Even though they always kicked our asses, de-compiled the games and cheated to win. KE KE KE!!

[karynnj]

143. google gives me press tv (Iran) - same with Syria and Russia.

Looking for links on an earlier NK detainee, I got what was clearly a North Korean source. Clearly the US government is not blocking them.

However, I am simply googling something in the news ( whether it be Mosul, ISIS, or North Korea etc), NOT going to google news and using a drop down menu to get the news from a given source. It may be that google simply did not include them on their website. If you want, blame google, but try just googling something and you will get those sources.

[Sunlei]

150. https://news.google.com/

https://news.google.com/

dropdown under US edition not every country is listed, some aren't in English & they should be.

now my milage may be different, I don't ever logon to google, I'm not a member of google++ & won't ever use any newsfeed services.


Thanks though, I know I can search "Iran" and find their medias. A surfers hint is to look at the images tab to find the more interesting 'stuff', or search youtube for most recent uploads. lots of interesting stuff shows up about local foreign medias.

[karynnj]

153. I think we might be opposites - I had never gone to news.google, until you mentioned it

Thank you for the post. Where it would be interesting is if I wanted to know what the issues were somewhere and clicking on that countries link would then be interesting. I have never used a newsfeed -- unless you count what you create through following on twitter.

[lunasun]

144. State dept strongly discourages travel to NK

(DPRK). U.S. citizens in the DPRK are at serious risk of arrest and long-term detention under North Korea’s system of law enforcement. This system imposes unduly harsh sentences for actions that would not be considered crimes in the United States and threatens U.S. citizen detainees with being treated in accordance with “wartime law of the DPRK.”

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html

I think they have the responsibility to identify places unsafe to its citizens,which they have been doing. Who knows what the state dept will be doing later in the trump years as they change course on expectations
look at the Cuba reversal

[Glimmer of Hope]

6. This is still around:

http://www.responsibletravel.com/holiday/18000/north-korea-highlights-and-walking-tour

[MineralMan]

9. Yes, well, that's a UK travel company.

I don't have any suggestions for citizens of the UK. I don't know their risks in North Korea.

[tblue37]

23. I don't think NK considers British citizens to be as useful as hostages. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. The UK maintains diplomatic relations with NK and has an embassy in Pyongyang (n/t)

[nikibatts]

8. Some things in life just aren't worth doing. Bucket lists are overrated. Just ask some who

are half way through them.

[MineralMan]

13. Especially bucket lists loaded with dangerous things.

Thrill-seekers sometimes get the thrill of dying. I don't recommend it, really. I've woken up from a coma in a hospital one, so I can speak from experience. Not a good plan.

[yuiyoshida]

10. I WOULD think South Korea is much better. Better yet...

Visit JAPAN instead

[MineralMan]

11. Yes. South Korea would be an interesting

place to visit. So is Japan, of course. Both choices are relatively safe destinations for US Citizens, too. North Korea, on the other hand, is decidedly unsafe as a travel destination. If people want a Korean cultural experience, South Korea will be happy to oblige them.

[yuiyoshida]

14. You will have to try the local foods ...hahaha!!

[MineralMan]

16. Not a live one, thanks. I have eaten raw octopus, though.

I enjoyed that.

[yuiyoshida]

19. I just love me some ScienceBunny videos

that's my favorite!

[tblue37]

22. I love calamari, but I won't eat it any more because of the evidence of intelligence in

octopus and squid.

[jberryhill]

93. So only eat the dumb ones

After all, these are the ones that got caught.

[TNNurse]

119. Are you channneling Trump on this???

[jberryhill]

136. .

[Hekate]

96. I'm with you, tblue37

They turn out to be like really intelligent ... aliens. So, tasty, but no thanks.

[Alice11111]

112. Same for me! I'm a SCUBA diver, and they are really cool, even affectionate creatures.

I'm mostly vegetarian, but I eat a little fish. Not those!

[pangaia]

37. Why are Japan and ROK only 'relatively' safe destinations?

[yuiyoshida]

101. Well if North Korea starts bombing them they are not

But both Japan and South Korea are relatively safe and GUNS are illegal there.

[pangaia]

102. Ah ha, I understand.

In my experience Japan and South Korea are two of the safest countries to visit.
And of course, for me FOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oishii desu, ne !!

[yuiyoshida]

103. mochiron

honto desu.

[pangaia]

104. Wakarimasen. ?

[mwooldri]

131. Taiwan? Hong Kong?

I'd say they're safe.

China is safe too, as long as you watch your speech.

DPRK? If you go, do what you're told, watch what you say and keep your hands to yourself. Under different leadership the DPRK could be a wonderful country.

[pangaia]

146. Under sane DPRK leadership Korea would be one country.

[roscoeroscoe]

111. South Korea is awesome

Thanks to an all-expenses paid tour supplied by the US Army, I got to enjoy a year there. Loved it. I bicycled around and met a lot of people, learned some of the language and went to church a bunch of times. But North Korea? Yikes. Just stop by the War Museum in Seoul, that's all you will want to see of North Korea.

[pangaia]

36. Going to japan in October and South Korea in late July...

I've been to both....

love em...

[Alice11111]

115. South Korea and Japan are modern &civilized allies.The is no comparison to the brutal dictatorship,

of North Korea, where people are routinely tortured, and cannot leave their country. This sadistic dictator murdered his uncle and brother. He starves his people. He tortures their families if they try to escape.

[mwooldri]

135. Japan, China on my must go to places.

If a fan of anything English is an Anglophile, what is a fan of anything Japanese? If so put me in that category.

I can also get my head around the Japanese language and I feel it lends itself to easy pronunciation. Mandarin Chinese with its tones does confuse me a bit.

China, wonderful country and wonderful people. In my professional career, getting into the Chinese (particularly the Taiwanese) culture and learning Mandarin would help me greatly. But my heart is in Japan...

[longship]

18. Whatever you do, do not let your kids climb over the railing at Niagara Falls.

Then there's the idiot who does precisely that! TWICE!
https://www.rt.com/viral/392798-man-survived-niagara-died/
Note: He did not survive the second time.

And do not let your children travel to the DPRK. For the same damned reason.

[tblue37]

21. Christian fundamentalist missionaries, don't go there thinking you

can win converts and thus plump up your afterlife cred.

One American who was nabbed there had crossed the border from China waving a bible!

[MineralMan]

24. Yes. That's one of the worst reasons to go there.

And yet, people will continue to try to bring Jesus to people who have no interest in that. It's against the law in many countries, and the US Government isn't going to bail you out if you end up in prison for it, either.

[pangaia]

39. Yeah, we had a guy in upstate NY who crossed from PA waving a bible...

We sent him back...

[3catwoman3]

25. You are totally correct - no reason to go to North Korea.

And the woman who asked Otto to bring back the poster from there bears significant responsibility for this horrible outcome, IMO.

When I was stationed in Japan, I took what was known as the "5 City Tour," thru the base travel service, 2 cities in Malaysia (kind of a waste of time) and then Bangkok, Singapore, and Hong Kong. My immediate superior officer, who was a real sleaze, asked me if I would be willing to take possession of 2 Buddha figures he had somehow arranged to have smuggled out of Burma. Because he wrote my annual officer efficiency reports, I couldn't tell him to go to hell, but I declined in no uncertain terms. I was shocked that he was willing to have me put myself at risk like that. He was a lousy human being, and a lousy pediatrician.

I also have serious reservations about the whole notion of missionary work. If someone wants to go do good around the world, fine - go do it. But don't tie it to any particular religious philosophy that requires or encourages conversion to a belief system. I find that quite presumptuous. That is a whole different topic.

[Madam45for2923]

121. Pretty awful of your XO! There are many countries that don't find things like that funny or cute!

and repercussions if caught are not funny or cute.

Also, interesting your take and way of putting it, about missionary work.

[Motley13]

26. Otto did a dumb thing stealing the poster

but they make up reasons to incarcerate people. South Korea is great from what I understand, just don't go near the border, NK has been known to arrest people just getting close.

[MineralMan]

28. Apparently, some woman in the US asked him to grab a souvenir

for her. "Please steal some sort of propaganda poster for me, won't you?" And, like an idiot, he did that. She's also somewhat responsible for what happened. I hope she knows that and it's weighing heavily on her right now.

I've traveled to many places, and before going to them, I've tried to learn what things I shouldn't do there. Stealing crap is always one of them. Everywhere.

I'm very sorry that young man died. It's terrible. But nobody should put themselves in that kind of risky situation. In many places, a "slap on the wrist" is not the punishment, like it is here in the US.

[karynnj]

145. "Beauty and the Beast" where the request for a rose leads to trouble

I would suspect that the woman and his family likely do feel responsible to some degree. In fact, if he told anyone from his university that he was taking this trip before his study abroad started, they too - whether other students or faculty likely feel some guilt. Not to mention, it is entirely possible that his father paid for the tour. (clearly he knew about it and knew how they described it.)

[pangaia]

41. How does North Korea arrest people 'getting close' if they are still in South Korea?

[Coventina]

45. I wondered that as well. I'm guessing they really mean the DMZ.

If you are close in the DMZ, I can imagine them snatching you.

[dalton99a]

61. Heck, they used to kidnap Japanese citizens in Japan

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/north-koreas-abduction-project
North Korea’s Abduction Project
By Robert S. Boynton
December 21, 2015

[brooklynite]

27. I've considered traveling to North Korea.

Why? Because it's a wildly different society and gaining a better understanding of it seems beneficial.

There is actually more tourism there than you might imagine (mostly European). If you're not acting irresponsibly and stay with your handlers, it doesn't appear as though you'll have much trouble. That said, I wouldn't go at times when international relations are tense.

FWIW - I visited Syria just before the Civil War, and I wouldn't give up that trip for anything.

[MineralMan]

30. OK. It was just a suggestion.

You should do as you think best. However, if you do, and find yourself in some cesspit of a jail in a country that doesn't have any diplomatic relations with the US, I hope you won't expect someone to heroically rescue you.

[nycbos]

32. You won't get "the real picture" going to NK.

You only see what the regime wants you to see. It is would 100% propaganda.

[brooklynite]

33. I agree, to a point...

...but driving down empty highways, or looking at how people are dressed on adjacent trolley-buses is informative as well.

[jb5150]

55. I wold skip going to a place ..

where you were required to have a "handler".

[BainsBane]

29. I'd love to go to Seoul

Jeju island, etc.... but no way in hell I'd ever go to North Korea.

[pangaia]

43. Oh, I DO recommend Seoul...

best airport on the planet. beautiful, warm, genuine people, GREAT cuisine, best subway system, affordable, culturally more advanced than the USA...check out SAC,Sejong Arts Center, etc...... and the rest of ROK is also wonderful.

My only suggestion would be try to avoid July and August.... Seoul can be stiffling. :&gt ))

[BainsBane]

49. and shop for K-beauty!

[pangaia]

77. LOL :))))))))))))))))))

[jberryhill]

85. Or stop in for a haircut at the shop with two barber poles

[pangaia]

88. Now that's not nice....

I usually stay in a "love hotel' in Seocho-gu.. Cheap, can walk to Seoul Arts Center, Nambu Bus Station, Bus to airport, Subway to anywhere, plenty of places to eat,,, and few tourists, almost zero....

[jberryhill]

89. I kept forgetting which gu my dong was in

[pangaia]

90. I surrender....I'm going to a baseball game..

Batavia Muckdogs vs Auburn Doubeledays.

GO MUCKDOGS !!

They are now 1-0. Maybe the only time all season they are above 500.

[Madam45for2923]

122. Oh I like japan's airport, mini-rooms with beds and showers you can rent for a few hour and rest in

between flights!

[nycbos]

31. To repeat what other have said. It is sad that this kind of obvious thing needs to be said.

The warning State gives out is quite chilling if you read it.


It is much stronger language then their other alerts.

For many places it's "exercise caution" in a place. For other is "seriously consider not traveling to this location" For North Korea it's "The Department of State strongly warns U.S. citizens not to travel to North Korea"

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html

Here are some highlight.

"Since the United States does not maintain diplomatic or consular relations with North Korea, the U.S. government has no means to provide normal consular services to U.S. citizens in North Korea"

"At least 16 U.S. citizens have been detained in North Korea in the past ten years. North Korean authorities have detained those who traveled independently and those who were part of organized tours. Being a member of a group tour or using a tour guide will not prevent North Korean authorities from detaining or arresting you"

"The Embassy of Sweden in Pyongyang is the Protecting Power for U.S. citizens in the DPRK providing limited consular services to U.S. citizens who require emergency assistance. Although the U.S.-DPRK Interim Consular Agreement stipulates that North Korea will notify the Embassy of Sweden within four days of an arrest or detention of a U.S. citizen and will allow consular visits by the Swedish Embassy within two days after a request is made, the DPRK government routinely delays or denies consular access."

[Hekate]

98. That pretty much answers my earlier statement/question.

Nothing is idiot-proof. I am so sorry for that young man's family.

[Adrahil]

34. I'm with ya....

I don't understand "thrill seekers" who seek to deliberately place themselves in a dangerous situation, and then expect others to expend a great deal of effort or endanger themselves to extract them. It smacks of a kind of privilege I've seen for a long time.

Having said that, I still feel sympathy for this young man's family. Foolish or not, his loss is tragic.

[LisaM]

62. I feel sympathy for his family but they don't seem to think he did anything wrong....

Last edited Tue Jun 20, 2017, 03:45 PM - Edit history (1)

in fact, in an article I read yesterday, they said they were proud of him and his tendency to be "adventurous".

Clearly, this family feels entitled.

You know who I think bears responsibility? The company that takes kids to North Korea from China. How on earth do they leave him there?

[Adrahil]

64. Well said. NT

[Mariana]

138. He probably signed a release

that they weren't responsible for him if he got into trouble with the authorities. You think they're in a position to force NK to let him go? Seriously, how do they *not* leave him there? If they hang around and raise hell about his arrest, they're likely to land in the prison camp right alongside him.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

38. I know a few people (mostly Chinese) who have been there

None said they saw anything that made it worth the trip.

I have been to a number of the world's finer shitholes, such as peak-anarchy Zimbabwe but nothing would convince me that living breathing Stalinism is something I need to see firsthand.

[Oneironaut]

40. IMO, North Korean travel should be illegal.

Anyone who goes to North Korea should be prosecuted if they come back to the US. It's only a matter of time until the next American is captured there.

[MineralMan]

42. Oh, I wouldn't go that far, actually.

However, people really need to be aware that they aren't going to get magically rescued if they end up under arrest there.

They need to realize that they might become a hostage for negotiating purposes by traveling there.

[Oneironaut]

44. The problem is, each American captured is a purposeful spit in our face.

Then, when nothing is done, North Korea wins and feels like they can continue to kidnap Americans without repercussions.

I feel awful for the parents whose son died, but his actions caused an embarrassing and awkward situation for our government. For Obama, it was either pay the ransom or let him stay in jail. Going to North Korea is crazy. It's about as sensical as visiting Somalia.

[SpankMe]

48. Well, travel to Cuba was a crime for a long time.

And there was a travel ban to Iran at one point. So, such a travel ban is doable. And the reasons weren't nearly as hefty as "because you could go to prison with hard labor, get tortured and die". It was because ...hurting Castro...something...".

My point: We had a travel bans to other countries for purely economic reasons. We could implement one for security and safety reasons.

[jberryhill]

74. You could go to Cuba under certain circumstances

As long as you were part of an approved "cultural exchange", and there were basically educational institutions that would organize "educational trips" to Cuba.

There wasn't actually a ban on "traveling to Cuba". There was a ban on spending money in Cuba.

I don't think the US government should - at all - be in the business of telling free people where they can and cannot go.

[Alice11111]

116. Cuba was never a problem, especially in the last 15 years.

[BannonsLiver]

151. There has been renewed discussion of a total ban

But there are ways around that. I'm not convinced this kid stole anything. That's what the North Koreans say. The video they have produced is inconclusive.

But as others have said, it's just not worth the risk.

[Coventina]

46. My husband and I have traveled to repressive countries.

ME: Vietnam and Cuba
HIM: Both of the above plus Saudi Arabia (he was sent there for work reasons)

North Korea is beyond the pale for either of us.

But rule number one, in going to such places is: BE ON YOUR BEST BEHAVIOR AT ALL TIMES! Never, but NEVER do anything stupid. NEVER!

When you are on their turf you are subject to their whims.

People get executed in places like Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia OFTEN for what we would call non-issues, like having a joint.

You just don't mess around when overseas, no matter WHERE you go. You are a visitor, be smart, be safe, and play by THEIR RULES. If you can't do that DON'T GO!!!!

[spiderpig]

66. While I've never been to Singapore, friends have

They told me that on arrival the gate agent made the usual polite welcoming speech ending with "We wish to remind you that the penalty for illegal drug usage or transactions is death".

It's their country. If you're a guest, act like one.

[jberryhill]

73. Singapore is easily the least interesting Asian destination

I've been to Singapore twice on business. If you want to go somewhere "Asian" and don't like Asia, Singapore is the place for you. 7-11's on every corner.

Best airport on the planet, and really good food, but if you are going to travel that far, then there are much more interesting and less "sanitized" places to go.

[Coventina]

83. Ugh. Yeah, I think I'll pass, thanks. Or, at least, never check my luggage.

I've heard stories that sometimes drug smugglers will put drugs in people's unlocked luggage, making them unwitting mules, and, bear the punishment if caught.

I don't know if true or not, but paying the ultimate price for illegal drugs would make me a bit paranoid.

(And this is from someone who has never made an illegal drug deal in her life!)

[spiderpig]

86. Innocents Abroad

So many things you don't think about when you travel.

[HipChick]

47. How are we outraged about travel to NK, when US citizens are murdered

by US cops , with no accountability?

[MineralMan]

50. A valid point, of course.

But, we live here. Most of us have no choice about that, really. Traveling to other countries is optional for most of us. Not all, of course. I was stationed in Turkey while in the USAF for 15 months. I was at a tiny little AF base on the Black Sea. Unlike many of the people stationed there, who stayed on base for the entire 15 months, I traveled extensively in Turkey while I was there. But, before I did that, I took the time to learn some conversational Turkish and to learn how to behave in a Muslim country. I met many people there, and managed not to offend anyone or break any laws. It was pretty easy, really.

Still, a large majority of fellow Air Force people never, ever left that little base. I always found that surprising. They were afraid to go into the nearby city of 200,000 people, despite it being a very nice place to visit, and full of friendly people. They were afraid.

Turns out that it's easy to get along in Turkey. Just like it is in most places. But that's not so in countries like North Korea. Not at all.

[HipChick]

52. Understood, but US credibility is pretty much shot...

I understand the outrage, but also some of the domestic issues of human rights at home go unaddressed..

[MineralMan]

56. Yes, but that isn't really related to my thread about not

going to places like North Korea, really. You're right. We have real problems here, but the two things aren't really related to each other. Most people who venture to travel to North Korea are relatively affluent and are unlikely to get into trouble in the US, thanks to their privilege. The young man who died was a white college educated person. Here, his human rights would be unlikely to be violated, really. There, he has none at all, nor any pretense of having any.

The trip was a foolish one, and his actions while in that repressive country were also foolish. The punishment was not appropriate, of course, but that's what happens in places where you are not liked in the first place. Had he not gone there at all, he would be hale and hearty and living the life of a privileged white person here. Instead, he is dead.

So, yes, many people in the US do not have that same privilege and we need to be working hard to equalize rights here for everyone, But, again, that's not really relevant to my initial post.

[SpankMe]

51. Because it's impractical to wait...

...until the homicide rate - or homicide by cop rate - is zero before we start caring about other problems. We can work on more than one thing at a time.

Plus, with the corruption and "blue wall" we face when trying to make malfeasant police accountable, it's probably easier to fix North Korea than to fix our police.

[HipChick]

53. Good Point..

[cab67]

57. I, for one,

am capable of being outraged about more than one thing at a time.

[Hekate]

99. Maybe because we can hold more than one thought in our heads at a time?

[IronLionZion]

160. Other countries have made that point too

in the US one doesn't have to steal a poster or commit any crime at all to be publicly executed by our local government. Just being 12 years old and black got Tamir Rice publicly executed by our government. Being a law abiding American who told the officer he has a concealed carry permit and gun got Philando Castile publicly executed.

Freddie Gray got tossed around in a rough ride to get injuries to his spinal cord that killed him, just for owning an illegal switchblade. DUers will ALWAYS be outraged when something happens to a white Jewish man at the hands of a foreign country but fewer DUers feel outraged when it's Americans who get shot for looking like someone who might have committed some crime somewhere in the vicinity of being black.

"Those people all look alike" is the sort of punch line that ends innocent people's lives.

What would be more outrageous would be if after this, it was widely believed that white males steal stuff and any young possibly liberal white male is probably a thief until proven otherwise. Yes, it is stupid.

Or a more realistic bit of nonsense are the number of educated liberal DUers accusing Otto of being a Christian missionary when he's actually Jewish and active in Hillel and did a Birthright trip to Israel.

The US government has targeted and killed several US citizens in drone/missile strikes. I'm sure someone can come up some justification to kill American born Anwar Awlaki but what were his two kids guilty of?

Yes, I know the USA is the greatest country in the world. But every time we point a finger at someone there are 3 fingers pointing back at us.

[Airotciv60]

54. Travel sanctions

It seems travel sanctions to NK are justified. But are justified for travel to Cuba?

[MineralMan]

60. Well, a lot of people would like to go to Cuba.

North Korea? Not so much. A travel ban to NK isn't really necessary to prevent the flow of tourist dollars there. Cuba's another matter. Tourism was very big in Cuba from the US, and probably still would be, so instituting a travel ban did serve as a monetary blow to Cuba. That was the goal, anyhow, and it worked.

For North Korea, the State Department has a very clear warning to people thinking about going there. A few people ignore that warning and go anyway, but blocking travel to NK wouldn't really serve any purpose. That's probably why.

[DFW]

110. I was in Cuba and East Germany in the 1980s

In Cuba, things were different, as I was an invited guest of the government. I was watched like a hawk, of course, but still, they knew I was there, and I expected to be watched. One government official encouraged me, on an afternoon when there were no appointments, to take a bus downtown and wander the old town of Havana. I asked if his superiors would have a problem with that, and he said not at all. I did, but got stopped by "passers-by" asking me what time it was, and then complimenting me on my Spanish when I told them. OK, I didn't look like a typical Cuban, but they didn't have to make it THAT obvious that I was being followed with every step. A little creepy, but not really unexpected.

East Germany was downright creepy. Since Westerners were allowed to make day trips to East Berlin, we weren't completely shadowed, but we were watched. Soldiers in their Nazi-style (except for the helmets) uniforms were goose-stepping everywhere, and no one was smiling. In the transit station on the way back to West Berlin, I was stopped, taken into a windowless room where I was the only one without an East German uniform or the right to stand up without permission, and interrogated for over half an hour, made to empty my pockets and explain every move I had made in East Berlin. This had happened to me more than once in East Berlin, the first time being when I was 22, before I was even working.

These were two countries which, while having political stances hostile to ours, had no overt interest in seriously harassing or harming an American who was not harassing or harming them. North Korea has no such inhibitions, and even a perfumed, hand-written personal invitation from Kim Jong-Un would result in my sending my regrets.

[jberryhill]

75. Justified how?

Why should the US government be in the business of telling people where they can and cannot go?

If some jagoff wants to go there, then so what?

This business of thinking the US should bother to "rescue" people who go to risky places is more of an issue than anything else.

[stonecutter357]

58. K&R

[cab67]

59. Your second point is very much spot-on.

I teach at a university and have encountered far more than my share of students who think the world will change if only people from other countries encounter us. So they sign up for "service vacations" where they'll help dig a hole they can pretend will one day be a well, or help build a shelter the next big wind storm will knock over, or engage in activities intended to show people already inundated with American culture (movies and TV) what we're really like.

My work has taken me to some sketchy parts of the world (e.g. Venezuela), but I've been careful to work with local colleagues who know exactly where to go, where to NOT go, and what to expect. And both their advice and my experience tell me not to expect people to change their minds about the United States just because they meet one more or less reasonable and polite US citizen.

[MineralMan]

63. Yes. There's quite an industry built around that kind of tourism, too.

A young relative of mine went on some Evangelical tourism thing to, you know, "Witness" to people. He solicited donations from the family to cover the costs of the trip. Oddly enough, it cost a lot more than just getting on a plane and flying there and then staying in hotels. Oh well. I didn't donate, because I disapprove of that kind of "missionary" activity.

Of course, he posted lots of photos on Facebook of his "work" there. I saw a couple where he was placing a concrete block on a wall and one where he was painting something. Most of the photos, though, oddly enough, were of him relaxing from his missionary work on a local beach or dining in a restaurant. He came back with a tan, lots of souvenirs to give to donors, and a sense of some kind that he had done "good works."

Evangelical tourism. There's money to be made in it. So, there are plenty of companies organizing such trips. Feh!

[mountain grammy]

65. My dad served in the Marines and was in SK during the war.

He loved the people and country and spoke often of returning. He wanted to see the country at peace. Sadly, he died in 1958 and never made it back.

[MineralMan]

67. I'm sorry he didn't get a chance to return.

[spanone]

68. don't.

yep.

[Vinca]

71. At this point we need a ban on travel to North Korea. Apparently, it's necessary to save people

from themselves. While I feel sorry for this young man and his family, they must have had some inkling of the risk involved in traveling there. And, as I recall, just before the kid was supposed to leave for home he swiped a sign or something for a souvenir. That, of course, does not warrant jail time or worse, but North Korea is not led by a normal person.

[jberryhill]

76. Why?

Since when does anyone need the US government telling them where they can or cannot go for their own safety?

A dozen people a year fall into the Grand Canyon and die. They were, by and large, doing stupid shit there.

By the same token, if someone goes to North Korea and gets locked up for some stupid shit, why should anyone else give a shit?

How about this guy and his companion:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/18/us/yosemite-base-jumpers-dean-potter-graham-hunt-deaths/index.html

(CNN)Extreme sports legend Dean Potter was one of two BASE jumpers found dead in Yosemite National Park after attempting an aerial descent from Taft Point, authorities said.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/bungee-jumper-killed-front-horrified-9494316

Bungee jumper killed in front of horrified family after plunging 140ft 'because cord was too long'

There is an infinite range of risky things that people do for amusement. Shall the US government ban them all?

[spanone]

78. well, perhaps because a death in NK, such as this kid, could spark an international incident/war

2 base jumpers?, probably not.

[jberryhill]

79. And that can't happen elsewhere?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-freed-american-hikers-speak-on-their-captivity-in-iran/

It was nearly five years ago that we first heard news that three young American hikers had been imprisoned by Iran, accused of spying. This morning, those three hikers -- long since freed -- share the inside story of their captivity with Tracy Smith

There's a huge roster of places where an idiot could cause some kind of incident.

[spanone]

91. sure can.

[jberryhill]

92. So it's a longer list than North Korea

Perhaps there are more places from which the US government should ban people from traveling.

[Vinca]

97. Don't even get me started on bungee jumpers. LOL.

Good way to cull the herd.

[mwooldri]

133. No. Just no.

I thought America is the land of the free. Americans should be free to leave the country and go anywhere. Look at Cuba... Chances are that the average American has to jump through more hoops to go there than the average Canadian, Mexican, European national. Exactly how successful has the US embargo of Cuba been?

However it is unwise to travel to North Korea under present circumstances. While I feel sympathy for the family of Otto Warmbier, and that the DPRK did essentially kill him for stealing a souvenir, the State Department did warn people not to go.

[grantcart]

80. You realize that anyone intelligent enough to get to this thread is not taking a trip to NK lol

[MineralMan]

81. I should think so. However, one can never tell.

[MrScorpio]

82. I've actually been to North Korea (technically)

And I have no reason to go back.

I did suggest to Dennis Rodman last month that he should head back there to help smooth things out out. All he did was laugh.

Perhaps he already knew that he was going back, but he didn't bother to tell me.

After all, who am I, right?

[Hekate]

84. Calling the travel company Young Pioneers is kind of a tip-off for anyone with a memory...

But seriously, why is travel to North Korea by Americans just not forbidden? This is nuts. That kid did nothing -- or did something so trivial that in any other country on the planet someone would have said, "naughty-naughty" -- and he got scooped up to use as another bargaining chip, was tortured, and is now dead.

I am so sorry for his family.

[jberryhill]

87. What about Syria?

Don't you think we should also ban people from traveling there?

[Hekate]

95. Why the contrarian stance? I don't get what you're driving at.

Also I missed the steady trickle to Syria of American tourists, students, and missionaries, being sentenced to 15 years hard labor and used as bargaining chips when Dear Leader needs his ego stroked by having a dignitary like Al Gore fly in to meet with Dear Leader and humbly ask for the release of the child of some desperate American family.

Missed that. Shot dead in Syria, yes. It's an active war zone -- that kind of danger comes with the territory and any fool knows it.

North Korea is deceptively calm. It's just a country-wide maximum security prison run by a cult leader. Apparently a lot of fools don't quite get that.

[jberryhill]

100. American hostages have been used in all sorts of places

But missionaries in particular understand what they are getting into when they go there, and, again, the US position on those kinds of things should be "sucks to be them" because that is exactly what they chose - of their own free will as citizens of a free country - to go there and do.

The US government should not be in the business of telling free people where they can go and where they can't go. If a free person decides of their free will they'd like to go somewhere risky and do something stupid, then that's up to them.

Do YOU need the US government telling you where you can go? I don't.

So, I'm asking, there are certainly places where one can go to get shot at, your head cut off, taken hostage by the government or lack thereof, and so on.

I had people tell me that visiting Kenya was outrageously risky because of Al-Shabab activity there. Ditto Colombia and Mexico (kidnappings), Egypt (terrorist kidnappings), and plenty of other places. You educate yourself, spin the wheel, and takes your chances.

But, okay, I'm saying "why not just make a list" since there are all kinds of dicey places where people can do stupid things. If you insult the king in Thailand, they'll lock you up too. I just don't see why it's the business of the US government to start telling people where on this planet they may go or not go.

So, if we're going to get serious, then let's make out the whole list.

Aside from which, are you saying it would be legal, under the First Amendment, for the US government to tell missionaries where they can and can't go?

[Mariana]

137. What do you think the penalty should be?

Suppose travel to North Korea is forbidden, as you suggest. If any US citizens go to North Korea then return to the US, what should be done with them?

[Hekate]

147. Currently the penalty seems to be imprisonment, a show trial, and death, amirite?

Actually, the question embedded in my post was answered by someone else, who quoted the State Department warnings. The warnings are sufficiently lurid.

Nothing's idiot-proof. People who take selfies at the edge of a cliff where the wind gusts can knock you over, having climbed over a wall to get to the perfect spot, and standing next to a big sign warning tourists to stay back -- let's just say I am sorry for their relatives.

[Mariana]

162. No, you're not right.

Very few of the hundreds of Americans who go to North Korea each year have any problems. Therefore, it is ridiculous to talk as if Otto Warmbier's experience is the norm. It is not. The few that do get into trouble make the reasons for the warnings very clear. Anyone who goes there takes the chance of being the unlucky victim of a moment of stupidity or even of a false accusation of wrongdoing.

Warning Americans not to travel to North Korea is one thing, making it a crime is something else. I take it you don't really believe our government should prohibit travel to North Korea.

[Pisces]

94. Couldn't agree more!!

[treestar]

105. Agree. Also you can Vicariously travel

There. You tube has a lot of videos from people who went there. Usually from countries other than the US so they are a bit safer there

[lillypaddle]

117. No shit nt

[Lady_Chat]

118. Mineral Man and anyone else- Remember Kenneth Bae AND Matthew Todd Miller?

I bring this up for several reasons: 1. They were both held hostage by N. Korea., Bae was sentenced (charges of planning to overthrow the North Korean government) to 15 years hard labor, Matthew Todd Miller ( espionage) for 6 years of hard labor. 2. They were both released in 2014, thanks to an intervention by James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence.

2. While Trump blamed Obama for Otto Warmbier's death, it makes me wonder why the other 2 weren't as brutalized. Their crimes seemed far more serious than Warmbiers. Of course Trump made made no mention of these two being released during the Obama administration.

Warmbier's family doesnot want an autopsy performed, I can understand their feelings, but since this is being called a "murder", wouldn't that be the appropriate procedure?

How do we know when Warmbier's injuries were sustained? Is it possible it happened when Trump was threatening N Korea, that they started taking it out on Warmbier? That they finally decided to release him in that condition, to taunt Trump, sort of an in your face, what do you think you can do about it now?

I'm also thinking back to when two journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling, who were kidnapped and taken hostage by N. Korea and eventually released via private diplomacy undertaken by former President Clinton and White House advisor John Podesta. They were also released during Obama's administration. Again, Trump will never mention that.

I agree with you Mineral Man, I don't think you can equate traveling to a country governed by a madman can be compared to the same risk of bungee jumping, nor do I think our country should be responsible for getting them out of a situation they put themselves in.

All opinions are welcomed, whether you think I am right or wrong. I'm really curious about this.
Thanks!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

142. "Warmbier's family doesnot want an autopsy performed,..."

Can the county medical examiner order one performed?

I don't know Ohio law, etc.

[Lady_Chat]

163. Thanks for responding

I'm not a lawyer, so just out of curiosity I did some reading, for what it's worth. Usually when there is a homicide, an autopsy is performed to establish the cause of death. However, if the victim's family has objections on religious grounds or if the victim left instructions before their death, that they did not want an autopsy performed, their wishes would be respected.

At first, I thought it was just me, wondering why this young man came back so horrifically injured, when the other 4 didn't. But reading posts from different news sites, a lot of people are wondering the same thing. They are also wondering why the parents didn't want an autopsy, and why wouldn't they want to know what happened to their son.

I guess we will never know, but it certainly seems odd.

[Madam45for2923]

120. Kim Young Un kills his own family members! Humans are just not appreciated in NK!

Plus, Americans are not particularly liked or treated any better.

[Sunlei]

123. personally I think China, SK & USA should open the borders and help NK people escape

including their military people. NK would never be able to stop deserters and regular people from escaping.

China & SK would have places in their vast lands all the refugees could live and prosper.

[Coventina]

149. South Korea gives instant citizenship and tons of financial support to any North Korean who manages

to escape.

The most frequent route is to go north to the Chinese border where there is an "underground railroad" to help get them from the border to transportation to South Korea.

The problem is, it is very difficult to escape North Korea.

[Sunlei]

152. not enough help, tear down the border and drop thousands of cell phones across the lands.

They don't have enough military to stop a stampede of humans!

Of course the USA would never say , escape, flee that horrible government "We welcome Refugees"

[Coventina]

155. And, the instant that happened, North Korea would nuke South Korea.

And, possibly Japan.

Millions would die.

[IronLionZion]

128. Try Syria instead, it's lovely this time of year

Otto wasn't going from here. He was in China. Americans go to China all the time. I've done it. Chinese go to NK all the time with no problem. The tour group lied to him and assured him it was safe for Americans. "Stop being such a triggered snowflake, so many others have done it." That kind of nonsense.

It's easy to be in the US and understand why we shouldn't go to NK. It's considerably different if one is in China and being fed propaganda encouraging them to go.

A comparable idea would be telling a person in an abusive marriage or a child growing up in a cult: "Why don't you get out you dummy?" "You're responsible for your own actions so it's all your fault and you deserve abuse."

[lunasun]

148. I dunno I've been in China. Link?They are not hawking trips to NK on the street corners .

China has many promoted tourism destinations with in China So if you want to call salesm marketing propaganda , yes plenty of tourist spots are highlighted . I've been in tourist areas encouraged to take speed boat rides, but choose not to, even with the hawker asking if I'm afraid . Annoyed yes but not feeling abused to take the ride

Imo this NK tour would be something youd have to go looking for. This tour agency markets "tours your mother wishes you would stay away from "
FromCNN
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/asia/north-korea-tourism-otto-warmbier/index.html
Collings maintained that the company has never said that Americans "don't get detained" in their advertisements. "In fact, we don't target or mention Americans specifically in any of our advertising," he added.

It's his father who maintains he was lured into taking the tour

I could see religious propaganda to get the sign as many missionary groups go there but when the media interviews other people in the group they do not seem to be related to any church
None have said anything against the tour group either

Our deepest sympathies are with Otto Warmbier and those who loved him. We had held onto hope that he might recover, and have the life that he should have had, but now those hopes are gone, and we too are reeling with the shock of a young man's life taken well before his time.
The devastating loss of Otto Warmbier's life has led us to reconsider our position on accepting American tourists. There had not been any previous detainment in North Korea that has ended with such tragic finality and we have been struggling to process the result. Now, the assessment of risk for Americans visiting North Korea has become too high.
The way his detention was handled was appalling, and a tragedy like this must never be repeated. Despite constant requests, we were denied any opportunity to meet him or anyone in contact with him in Pyongyang, only receiving assurances that he was fine. There has still been almost no information disclosed about his period in detention. Considering these facts and this tragic outcome we will no longer be organising tours for US citizens to North Korea.

[IronLionZion]

159. I've been to China and the propaganda is completely loony

You're right, I didn't see anyone telling me to go to NK, but I did meet several Chinese people who have gone there to visit and said good things about it.

The propaganda I've heard is that the US history books are lying to us about the 3 T's: Tienanmen square, Taiwan, and Tibet. It's pointless discussing those topics with anyone who is a big supporter of the Chinese government. Tibetan and Taiwanese people provide a very different viewpoint on those issues.

[MineralMan]

130. Often, you just have to go to some country

that has diplomatic relations with your final destination. People have been going to Cuba, for example, all along. You just go to Mexico and fly to Havana from there. It's a risky thing to do, but it's been going on for years.

[Orrex]

140. I hear that Louise Mensch tweeted that North Korea might be dangerous

Let us now praise her for her unique insight and prognostication!

[MineralMan]

141. Brilliant! If only people had listened to her, eh?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

154. Not going there

would seem like a no-brainer, along with China and most of the ME

[MineralMan]

158. China's OK. Lots of tourism there, and it's very safe.

Most of Eastern Asia's fine, too. I'd skip the Middle East right now, too, and probably I wouldn't venture into Indonesia right now. Of course, I can't really afford to travel to any of them, anyhow, these days.

[steve2470]

161. I understand your points, but I've been to mainland China and 1989 USSR

You could say I was foolish going to both of those places. In China, I never had the feeling I was being surveilled but I'm sure my registration at the downtown Beijing Holiday Inn (1997) was duly noted by the authorities.

In the USSR (yes in 1989 it was still called that), I went with my father and we both knew we were being actively surveilled. We had to stay in a special hotel for foreigners (the Stalinist design Rossiya in Moscow) and check our room keys in and out with a matron in our hotel hallway. She made a phone call to someone and told them we did something. Our tour in Moscow was "chaperoned" by some government guy, probably low-level KGB.

I was quite nervous in the USSR, having heard all the horror stories but they were just fine to us. Of course, we caused no problems and followed all the rules. We even got a bit lost on the way back to our hotel and the Moscow cops just redirected us politely. My dad tried to pay for a nice meal using US dollars but the owners told him firmly that was against the rules. He got the hint pretty fast and paid with rubles.

Just follow the rules and the laws, and you'll be fine. Poor Otto, he did something a bit ill-advised and got punished so harshly. Such a tragedy. I can see at his young age perhaps doing the same thing myself.

on edit: From reading the thread, it appears that you are risking detention and/or death if you're an American. I think I'll pass on NK. I'd rather go to the South Pole and risk freezing to death LOL