Anyone else struggle with this?

[Comatose Sphagetti]

I am not religious. I am not patriotic.

When I attend family dinners, we all hold hands and say a prayer. When I attend public events here in deepest red/white Indiana, the pledge of allegiance is often performed.

I don't want to join in the prayers, I don't want to stand, hand over heart, for the pledge.

Yet I feel I must, so I do, for fear of incurring acrimony and suspicion from the attendees.

I feel like a coward. Afraid to stand up for what I believe.

Anyone else deal with this?

[Goonch]

1. *

[Skittles]

2. alrighty then

[Rorey]

3. I AM patriotic

But I still don't feel comfortable pledging allegiance. I don't know why.

I don't think you're being a coward. You're keeping the peace at family dinners by not making it a big deal.

Edit: Maybe I do know why. Maybe it's because I am not going to go along with what my country says or does just because it's my country. We have the freedom to voice our disagreement here, at least for now. I don't feel comfortable pledging allegiance over everything without questioning it or having my own opinion. If that makes any sense.

[LeftInTX]

18. The pledge is fairly new....it showed up in the late 1800s...adopted by congress in 1942.

Maybe that is why. It isn't a Founding Father's thing. Just something created to create patriotism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[Towlie]

21. And "under God" was inserted in the McCarthy era to differentiate us from the "godless" Communists.

The pledge was introduced shortly after the Civil War by a socialist Baptist minister, and didn't include any reference to God. The phrase "one nation indivisible" was a reference to the failure of the Confederacy, and the clumsy insertion of "under God" divided that phrase and altered its meaning.

[Major Nikon]

23. Loyalty oaths were popular in many places around the world at the time

Including Hitler's Germany where they were used extensively.

When I was growing up the pledge was compulsorily. Those that made them so evidently missed the irony of forcing children to declare everyone has "liberty".

[WhiteTara]

36. I'm from the Madilyn Murray O'Hare

and don't say "under god"

[Sneederbunk]

4. Fake it and worry about something more important.

[msongs]

5. pledging to a flag is idolatry. the bible says idolatry is bad. there's your out nt

[Major Nikon]

25. That's the reason "under god" was added

As some interpreted it as idolatry. Interestingly enough, Christianity itself is considered idolatry by many observant Jews. I suspect Jesus would have agreed.

[Blue_true]

40. I agree. nt

[NCTraveler]

6. Everyone can pray.

It doesn't have to be inherently religious and can be for different reasons with different intent. Same goes for the pledge.

All of these people doing these things aren't doing them for the same reason. Just as you have decided to show the two actions/people taking part in said actions a certain form of respect.

[politicat]

7. I'm a non-theist Quaker.

I do not participate in public displays of piety or patriotism. Try it once in a low-pressure situation - stay seated during the pledge in a crowd. If you get pushback from someone, engage them with the Socratic method: get the other person to try to articulate why your non-participation made *them* uncomfortable, and try to get them to turn it around: how would they feel if others forced them to participate in something that they felt violated their sense of self? Because your non-participation is not about you, it's about them and their fear of doubt. You know who you are and where you stand. They don't.

But really - I have never said the pledge since second grade. I do not pray in public. I learned in high school to just stand quietly in the corner while the drama club prayed before performances. (In a public school, but *sigh*. I had bigger battles at that school.) I can count the number of times I've gotten pushback since then... on one hand. As long as you're not marching a one-man band through their moment, most people never actually notice.

Lots of people don't perform this ceremonial, performative piety.

[RobinA]

10. I Like That

"marching a one man band through their moment." A perfect way of putting it!

[Ms. Toad]

20. As a fellow quaker,

I take a different tact.

I don't say the pledge of allegience, sing the start spangled banner or engagage in other similar things.

That said I try to be respectful of those to whom it means something. If I know it is coming, I choose not to be present - it's an opportune time to run for refreshments at the ball park, for example.

When I can't avoid being present, I stand quietly, hands at my side, often with my head bowed (rather than looking at the flag), and recite something else in my head (like FCNL's "we seek" statements in order to avoid echoing what I cannot say with integrity).

There are enough places where my faith requires that I take a public stand that calls attention to myself (e.g. altering the notaries' statement on every document that is notarized to ensure it doesn't assert that I swore to anything - let alone all of the bigger places like the Vietnam war). Challenging others' blind patriotism isn't a place I'm led to be visibly different - even though I cannot, consistent with my maith, actively participate.

On the flip side, though, there are enough people who notice my non-participation that I am frequently asked about it, which leads to some pretty good conversations.

Ironically, I'm currently at the one place this year where I engage in the same kind of non-participation (and conversations) within my faith community (an imposed "moment of silence" at each meal - which I find offensive and inconsistent with Friends' invitation - but not mandate - to engage in spiritual practices). It is just as uncomfortable to be the one sitting in a supportive community as it is in the wider world.

[pangaia]

30. At minor league baseball games, I stand up for the STAR SPANGLED BANANA

and look around at the green grass, red clay, white lines uniforms, people. sky.. hat off, then I sit down.

A couple teams started doing the god bless ameruka thing in the 7th inning.... that is TOO MUCH for me.,. I go to the can. hat on..
fuck em..

The 7th inning stretch stretch is for Take Me Out To The Ballgame... AND SWEET CAROLINE.. Nothing else....




EDIT" Plus at minor league games the star strangled is usually strangled by some nit wit trying to ham it up...and I ofen have trouble keeping a straight face.

If you're going to do the banner thing, do it balls to the wall, full orchestara,

Here ya go.. with the great.. (un-named) on 20" Zildjian K cymbals...

Or Jimi Hendrix.. :&gt ))))

[Major Nikon]

27. The whole point is to try to make non-participants uncomfortable

Whether or not anyone says anything. It's one of the purest forms of privilege few seem willing to challenge.

[Kali]

29. yep, at least most of the time

[politicat]

35. Ah, yes, but what they want is the reaction.

They want non-conformists to act ashamed to validate their own sense of righteousness. Which is all about them, their fear of doubt, their need to be part of a herd, their ability to assert their sense of reality above all others. Thus, the proper reaction to an attempt at shaming is to laugh at them, or ignore them, or gift them with a "mother, please" hairy eyeball and walk away. (Arguing with someone determined to troll in person is pointless, because an emotional reaction hits their nervous system 100 times faster than a reasoned or verbal one does. So by the time they've realized they sound like an ass, they're already feeling defensive and behaving aggressively. Much better to make them work it out, in their own heads, in silence.)

My rule is to be respectful of other people's performance of their emotional and spiritual needs -- give them the space, allow them the time, don't interrupt or make their moments about me -- but to refuse to allow them superiority or self-righteousness.

[RobinA]

8. I Stand

at public events but no singing, pledging or hand over hearting. Remaining seated is more of a statement than I care to make.

My whole family is pretty godless, so that is no problem. I do bow my head if I'm at somebody's house who says grace for the same reason. The only thing I don't do is kneel in Catholic Church. I was raised Protestant (sort of), and the whole kneeling thing feels fake if I were to do it. I have been known to cross myself, but only if I know my company.

[Bettie]

9. I just stand

silently, to be respectful to the beliefs of others.

[pandr32]

11. Just rituals and traditions

Society is full of them. They have no deeper meaning unless you ascribe it.
I usually use the tradition of saying "grace" before a meal as a chance to reflect upon being fortunate to have food, that it had to be grown/gathered/prepared by others, and that I am in others' company. I never close my eyes, but just sit quietly out of respect.
I also look at "The Pledge of Allegiance" as an opportunity to show fidelity to the idea of a diverse and prosperous "America" that we could have if we could rid ourselves of all those traitorous asshats who care only about their own wealth and power.
I do, however, object to the overuse of these rituals--especially as a means to indoctrinate. For an example: saying "The Lord's Prayer" before a town hall meeting or school assembly. That is a bridge too far, especially when it flies in the face of the deliberate separation of Church and State.

[Warpy]

19. It feels like bullying when you don't share the sentiment

Oh, I'll keep my trap shut when people are mumbling over the food out of respect to the people present. I'll stand for the national anthem out of respect to the people present. Just don't ask me to mumble to a god I don't believe in or recite a loyalty oath to a flag, especially when the anticommunists shoved god into that one, too.

You want to pray publicly against the admonition of Jesus? Why go ahead, I'll be quiet for a few minutes.

I will not, however, comply with religious bullying by officials at public events.

[pandr32]

34. Oh, I don't mumble along either

I stay quiet. I stand or sit respectively and quietly. I have on occasion said "thank you so much for inviting me" or something like it after saying grace, though.

[OnDoutside]

12. When they pray, you should pray they stop being hypocrites.

[Delphinus]

13. When I am someplace

where they are praying, I look up. I do NOT bow my head in prayer. I'm not an atheist, but I don't belong to a religion.

I don't mind holding hands.

When at a ball game, I don't say the pledge of allegiance or sing the anthem. I have felt uncomfortable with that for a long time. I don't make a scene, but I don't participate.

Also here in Indiana - northeast.

[KTM]

14. Everyone struggles with this

to some degree at least. I'm atheist, but have my own formed beliefs about Life, The Universe, and Everything. I'm not a flag waver, but I want the best for and from my country.

I personally am a go-along-to-get-along kind of person on these fronts; everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I can love them and disagree with them at the same time, respectfully. If I'm trapped in a circle prayer, well, think good things for those around me and know that they mean well in that moment. A pledge ? I think that's a good time to be getting another beer when possible, but if trapped I will happily place hand over heart, lower my head respectfully, and ponder about my country and my role within it.

As far as arguments and acrimony over patriotism, I often fall back on this quote of Franken's:

"If you listen to a lot of conservatives, they'll tell you that the difference between them and us is that conservatives love America and liberals hate America. ... They don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world. That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well."

[aikoaiko]

15. When I'm a guest I generally follow the host's customs and traditions

I suppose I would draw a line of harm were done or threatened but that's never come up.

[panader0]

16. holding hands is fun

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. Nope.

I'm comfortable doing what I feel is right for myself, which includes respectfully listening to prayers, standing for but not saying the pledge or putting my hand over my heart. What other people think is their problem.

[hunter]

22. I learned resistance young. As a kid my mom was Jehovah's Witness.

Then we were Quakers, mostly because my mom couldn't stay out of politics as the Jehovah's Witnesses require. My mom was everywhere, from city council meetings, to Sacramento, to Alan Cranston's lobby.

God hates oaths and public displays of piety. That sort of behavior can buy you a ticket to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Christianity and patriotism are frequently incompatible and it's been that way from the birth of Christianity.

I was a weird kid already. Ignoring the pledge of allegiance for religious regions only added to my aura of weirdness. I remember my fourth grade teacher using me as an example of religious freedom in the U.S.A.. I'm sure she meant well, I honestly believe she was not trying to embarrass or shame me, maybe she was even trying to explain why my behavior was honorable, but that was not the effect.

But it made me stronger in some ways. I'm utterly immune to those sorts of social pressures and it was nowhere near the heat my mom's dad suffered as a conscientious objector in World War II. If he hadn't accepted a job building and repairing ships for the Merchant Marine they'd have thrown him in prison.

My mom's family was All American Wild West and they'd landed there in the wilderness as pacifists. U.S. wars were generally ignored by my ancestors, including the Civil War. They were beyond war's grasp, and they meant to keep it that way. My last immigrant ancestor escaped ugliness in Europe as a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. There she discovered she didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a monogamous fellow and they established a homestead that these days is about as far away as you can get from a WalMart in the 48 states.

Curiously my other grandpa, also authentic Wild West, was an Army Air Force officer in World War II. He was crazy about airplanes and flying. The Army decided to keep him on the ground as an engineer. In that service he became a wizard of exotic metal in some mysterious fashion he never talked about. He probably wasn't allowed to talk about it. Later he worked as an engineer for the Apollo Project, which was the accomplishment he was most proud of. Bits of his metal are on the moon and in the Smithsonian. He may have been some kind of pacifist too, he talked about the Bible enough and it was one reason my mom's religious insanity intrigued him, but his own hand as a warrior was never called. He was never ordered directly to shoot or drop bombs on anyone. If he was ever at risk of being shot at, or having bombs dropped on him, I don't know. My dad says he'd just disappear at times during the war.

[mwooldri]

24. As a Brit...

I will say "God Save the Queen" after a recital of the US pledge of allegiance.

As a Christian, I humour those who want to pray together in a public gathering. My chats with God are either in private or in church (mainly in private, as I don't attend church at present).

In my atheist years, it was best to simply stand when the group is standing and be silent out of respect to the majority present. Everybody else is worrying what everyone else is thinking. It may not be right but it's not wrong either.

[Squinch]

26. Where I live, we don't have the Pledge issue, but I was raised Catholic, so I'm often places

where prayers are said before meals and such.

I generally sit quietly and listen to the prayer. I don't do a sign of the cross and I don't fold my hands, but I am respectful to the ritual of others.

For funerals and stuff where church is required, I sit out the communion partly because I don't practice and partly because I think it would be disrespectful to just go up to be part of the crowd. Yes, in these old timey Catholic circles people are wondering, I'm sure, what mortal sin I have on my conscience that prevents me from going to communion. I find that amusing and try to feed their suspicions without ever confirming anything.

[Kali]

28. depends on the situation

public entertainment events? I usually remain seated but quiet, less public/more private events I will usually stand quietly. as a guest at a meal I will bow my head slightly but do not say amen or similar, when asked to say grace I decline by humorously saying I am not qualified. LOL

at public government functions like city council meetings, I grumble under my breath if I am early or on time to get stuck in that situation. should NOT be allowed!

[Croney]

31. I just leave out the "under God."

Nobody notices. I don't mind singing and reciting, otherwise. One thing that's awkward for me is when somebody prays and everybody says "amen" when they're done. I just can't say it. I pretend to cough or I drop my napkin or something.

[GentryDixon]

32. Go with your heart.

I worked for the DoD which should espouse separation of Church & State, yet they have an annual Prayer Breakfast. My Jewish boss would stand out of courtesy, but would never bow his head, nor acquiesce to the babble of any of the speakers we had. I stood along side him in my silent protest.

My one exception was the visit of Pastor France Davis of the Calvary Baptist Church in Salt Lake City. He talked about his poor upbringing in Georgia with Grandma holding the whip, with love and devotion, to his march with Dr. Martin Luther King across the bridge in Selma. It wasn't about forcing religion down your throat, but love & acceptance, pure and simple.

[Voltaire2]

33. Nobody in my family suffers from god beliefs

So I don't have that problem. The other one though - I just do the minimum. I'll stand. I won't join in the stupid loyalty oath taking or ritual gesturing. Haven't for decades.

[SharonClark]

38. It's what I do as well

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

37. I'm very uncomfortable

White bullies in junior high used to kick the shit out of me while singing God Bless America and I'm Proud to be an American. They did it to remind me, that being Chinese American, I could never be a "real" American in their eyes. I sometimes I have to leave the room if Lee Greenwood starts playing, because of anxiety attacks I still get.

[nini]

39. I repsect my hosts and be silent with them

That covers private/family things.

In public.. do what you want - you have that right and use it. If someone has a problem with that then they need to examine their own issues. Obviously don't put yourself in harms way but be true to yourself.

It is tough at times - I understand.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

41. Thanks all...

Very nice responses.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

42. When I'm Forced To Go To Church With The In-Laws..........

.............I stand when they stand, I sit when they sit, but I will not sing, nor will I repeat the words they tell me to repeat. I simply stand there silent. I've never been asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but if I ever was, I would do the same thing. Stand, but remain silent. Again, if my in-laws insist on saying grace before a meal, I will sit there silently until they are finished. It has never caused any controversy within the family AND I get to stand by my principles.

I am not religious at all, and since most people's definition of "patriotic" means blindly waving pom-poms at every war and other decision of a Republican President (notice how when there's a Democratic President, "patriotism" suddenly doesn't mean supporting every policy advanced anymore), I am not that brand of patriotic. I believe deeply in the Constitution, as I have taken an oath to defend it. All of the Republican Presidents of my lifetime have usurped the Constitution, and have advanced Party principles over American Constitutional values, and I will therefore never call myself a patriot if being a patriot means being a cheerleader for the downfall of the very thing I believe in.