If Mueller uncovers evidence of a crime but Trump fires Mueller before the trial...

[Kablooie]

can the evidence still be used by someone else later to pursue justice or is it locked away forever?

Also if Trump pardons his minions I read that they could still be called to testify and couldn't take the fifth.
If they lie under oath they could then be charged with perjury but couldn't Trump just pardon them for this new crime too?
Couldn't he keep pardoning them ad infinitum whenever they were charged with any crime related to his presidency?

Everyone says this would be political suicide but that was said about every single thing Trump has done before so it's unlikely there would be consequences for Trump as would normally be the case.

[unblock]

1. Yes. He can keep pardoning as long as he's potus

After that, he's in trouble.

Also he can't pardon for violations of state law.

[marylandblue]

2. Firing the Special Counsel doesn't close the office

The staff keeps on working. But I think it is a real open question as to whether he can fire the Special counsel. A court found Nixon could not do it and ordered Cox reinstated.

Ultimately this will end one of three ways
1) Congress breaks from Trump and impeaches.
2) The courts save Mueller, who ultimately indicts Trump.
3) Trump becomes dictator.

I one of these will happen within the coming weeks or months.

[NewJeffCT]

8. Can Mueller indict?

I thought he could only recommend charges to his boss at the Justice Department?

[Doodley]

3. Mueller has a lot on Trump. He could release it and Trump would be fatally damaged.

[TrishaJ]

17. Agreed.

I don't think the leaks from the career patriots in the DOJ and IC will stop. I don't think New York Times, the Washington Post or CNN will stop. Remember, Trump has attacked these groups and called them "the enemy of the people."

[avebury]

4. Trump cannot pardon any of them IF the charges

are state or local. Presidential pardons only cover federal crimes. If it turns out that there is a state and/or local crime that matches the Federal Crime, a person can be charged and tried in state and/or local court (depending upon the jurisdiction). Anybody who accepts a Presidential pardon would be admitting to guilt and lose their 5th Amendment rights. That would not bode well for someone who is then hauled into a lower court case and is either charged themselves or called as a witness against someone else).

I would imagine that the State of New York AG will be watching things really carefully to determine if anything that Mueller finds would could be used in a State case. I think that he would love to nail Trump to the wall. If Trump fires Mueller, Mueller might find himself in a sharing mood.

I just don't think that Trump is capable of playing multi-dimensional chess. He is far too simple minded.

[Kablooie]

7. I wonder if Mueller has plans to involve state governments as a backup to being fired?

[avebury]

12. If he is smart he will.

He can follow the bread crumbs wherever it leads him. I would think that, if he determines that someone broke state law that he should pass that information along.

I thank that Mueller is far better at playing multi-dimensional chess then Trump.

If Trump wants to pardon himself, his family and his mafia crowd, as one famous person said, please proceed. He doesn't have the attention span to see what the consequences of that action would be.

[tblue37]

14. Trump can't even play Tiddlywinks, much less multidimensional chess! nt

[yardwork]

9. I think that the State of NY AG is going to play a key role.

There are two paths to Trump's being ousted. One is political and right now, the Republican-controlled Congress protects him. The other path is legal and as you say, it's likely to play out on the state and maybe even local levels (maybe NYC money laundering and real estate swindles and tax fraud?).

Any legal maneuvers Trump makes to protect himself at the federal level can make things even worse for him on the State and local levels.

[karynnj]

5. Consider the timing could be different

Assume that he fires the long list of aides including family members. That, alone could trigger an impeachment vote and Trump being thrown out - even without these people speaking out. Yes, I know that both houses have Republican majorities, but they may see that ignoring that will destroy the Republican party -- and impeachment leads to rightwing Conservative evangelical Mike Pence.

It is possible that Trump's impeachment might not be the end, but almost the beginning of the trials on all the corruption that they were part of. I just wish that the work to roll in the Russian money laundering via real estate a few years ewarlier. Trump indicted in maybe 2014 would have been spared the country and world this chaotic leader.

[Kablooie]

6. I don't have faith that any of this would turn Republican voters.

So there would be no impeachment.

Republican voters I've had contact with believe that all this is nonsense brewed up by Trump's enemies. Essentially they think about it the way Democrats viewed the Clinton Whitewater scandal. Inconsequential charges that should not be pursued.
Trump pardoning everyone and firing Mueller would just be seen as practical measures to stop a needless waste of time and money.

I don't think impeachment would be on the table no matter what happens.

[yardwork]

10. I agree with that. Until Democrats retake the House, Trump won't be impeached.

[Yavin4]

11. We're six months in....just six months in

And this is where we're at. Unreal.

[tblue37]

13. I bet Mueller is making sure Schneiderman is getting copies of all evidence related

to his case against Trump for violating New York state laws.

Before he left the WH, Obama made sure evidence about Russia and Trump's campaign was tucked away in a lot of places where the good guys could find it but the bad guys could not easily bury it.

I hope Mueller is doing that, too, and I strongly suspect that he is.

Furthermore, if Trump fires Mueller and tries to shut down the investigation, I bet the leaks from the IC community and from the non evil, non suck-up career staff in the DOJ and even in the WH will become not a flurry but a blizzard, not a series of leaks but a freaking tsunami.

And, of course, trying to kill the investigation is itself more evidence of obstruction. Already Matt Drudge and some FOX mouths (e.g., Judge Napolitano) are saying that lines have been crossed because of Fredo's emails. If even more FOX faces--and not just Shep, Wallace, or Krauthammer, who have always been less supportive of Trump and his terrible behavior--start questioning or accusing him, he will be in real trouble.

Perhaps even more important, he has really alienated many GOP members of both houses of Congress, not to mention what he just did to Jeff Sessions. If he fires Mueller and tries to shut down the investigation, I bet they will cut their losses and ditch him for Pence, whom they would prefer anyway. If the GOP reps and senators turn against him, they can make sure a lot of the RW media outlets get the message to the base so that only the most extreme Trump cultists will stick with him.

I think a contingent of GOP office holders will eventually tell Trump that if he resigns "for health reasons," they will guarantee him (and maybe even his kids) a pardon, but if he doesn't, he will be impeached.

The only thing that might prevent that sort of scenario is that many GOP reps, senators, and others--like Pence and Sessions--are probably up to their eyeballs in laundered Russian money and in the whole conspiracy to fix the election with Russian help. They might stick with Trump if he has the goods on them or if Russia threatens them with exposure.

[avebury]

15. Pence would be foolish to agree to pardon Trump.

He should look at Gerald Ford to realize that pardoning Trump may have just as good influence on his ability to be elected in his own right as what Ford achieved from he pardoned Nixon.

[Blindingly apparent]

16. I have wondered if Mueller would self-publish, in case he was fired