slate -" Trump Can't Escape the States"

[NRaleighLiberal]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/07/no_matter_who_he_fires_or_pardons_trump_won_t_be_able_to_escape_state_attorneys.html

No matter whom he fires or pardons, the president won’t be able to hide from state attorneys general.

By Jed Handelsman Shugerman

There are more and more signals that Donald Trump is exploring firing Robert Mueller and pardoning anyone and everyone in his circle. So what would happen next? The bottom line is that those moves would backfire spectacularly.

First, can Trump pardon himself? That’s surprisingly hard to answer. The constitutional text gives no answer, and the Constitutional Convention of 1787 debates aren’t particularly helpful. Some people cite the Latin phrase Nemo judex in causa sua (One can’t be a judge in his own case) as some kind of answer, but the pardon power is executive, not judicial, so a president isn’t formally a judge in his own case. Plus, we don’t live in Rome, even if the Latin sounds wicked smart. The bottom line is that the only significant barriers to self-pardons are politics (impeachment) and federalism (state powers).

Presidential pardons can’t apply to state prosecutions. That means state attorneys general, especially New York’s Eric Schneiderman, Washington, D.C.’s Karl Racine, and Delaware’s Matthew Denn should think about canceling their summer vacation plans. (Yes, Delaware. Go Google “quo warranto,” see this old post, or better yet continue reading.) And maybe they should open up some office space for Mueller and his A-Team when he inevitably gets fired for getting closer and closer to hard evidence of serious crimes.


The president cannot pardon people for state crimes. Even if Trump pardons, say, his son-in-law Jared Kushner, a state prosecutor can bring charges under state law anytime. Similarly, Trump can be prosecuted under state law. President Richard Nixon’s attorney general concluded in 1974 that a sitting president can’t be indicted, but there is no constitutional text or precedent for such a conclusion—and it was obviously an interpretation that benefited Nixon. I think this is an open question.


snip - read on at the link above

[Gothmog]

1. Presidential pardon power only covers federal crimes

Trump has no power to pardon state criminal offenses

[Mme. Defarge]

2. K&R!

[smirkymonkey]

3. K&R

[Nictuku]

4. Hrrm

I don't think he can pardon himself, and here is why:

A president can't pardon anyone until they are convicted of a federal crime.

A sitting President can't be convicted of a crime, except after impeachment by the house, he can be convicted by the Senate.

Even if he is impeached, he will still remain the President, unles, or until he is convicted by the Senate, at which time, he will no longer be President.

[gratuitous]

6. Incorrect

First, the president can pardon anyone for any federal crime, indicted or not. That's what President Ford did for President Nixon:

Now, Therefore, I, Gerald R. Ford, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

Second, impeachment is a political not a criminal proceeding. An official who is impeached and removed from office doesn't go to jail, isn't fined, isn't in peril of life, liberty, or property. While no president has ever been criminally charged, there is no constitutional prohibition from a president having to answer a criminal indictment while in office. That said, it's highly unlikely a sitting president would be criminally charged by his own Attorney General (federal charges) or by a state attorney general (state charges). The Supreme Court, of course, has ruled that a president may be civilly sued, and forced to answer and participate in civil litigation while in office. But a subsequent Court might decide that holds only if the president is named Clinton.

[ReformedGOPer]

5. He will die in prison