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Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:19 PM

 

Pardons' acceptance require admitting guilt IMPEACHMENT. PLUS-cannot pardon NY or NJ State crimes.

Pardons' acceptance require admitting guilt = IMPEACHMENT. PLUS-cannot pardon NY or NJ State crimes.

Why Trump Critics Should Pray He Pardons Himself

...It shouldn’t.

In fact, if President Trump were to pardon himself, it would make him ripe for impeachment. No, I don’t mean that pardoning himself would amount to obstruction of justice or some other offense that he could theoretically be charged with if Congress stretches the facts to fit some statute. I mean that the pardon itself could be all the evidence Democrats need to oust Trump.

See, what a lot of people don’t realize is that a pardon isn’t simply a get out of jail free card that says a person has done nothing wrong. Quite the opposite, in order to accept a pardon, a person has to admit wrongdoing. According to the Supreme Court’s 1915 decision in Burdick v. United States, a pardon “carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it.”

That means that if Trump were to pardon himself for an offense, he would have to confess to it first. This element was a key factor in President Gerald Ford‘s decision to pardon President Richard Nixon. It assured that Nixon at least fess up to his crimes before being absolved.

This is important because Section II, Article 2 of the Constitution says that the President “shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.” So while Trump may be able to use a pardon to protect himself from federal prosecution, it wouldn’t prevent him from being impeached.

The impeachment process, of course, demands evidence in order to file charges, or articles of impeachment, and evidence would then be brought before the Senate, who would vote on whether or not to remove the President from office.

What stronger evidence against a President could there be than an official, on the record admission that he did something wrong?

I wonder if Trump’s lawyers told him that.


http://lawnewz.com/opinion/why-trump-critics-should-pray-he-pardons-himself/



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Reply Pardons' acceptance require admitting guilt IMPEACHMENT. PLUS-cannot pardon NY or NJ State crimes. (Original post)
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 OP
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #1
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #2
Not Ruth Jul 2017 #3
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #4
Not Ruth Jul 2017 #5
Jersey Devil Jul 2017 #13
NobodyHere Jul 2017 #14
Jersey Devil Jul 2017 #17
NobodyHere Jul 2017 #21
thesquanderer Jul 2017 #6
Kaleva Jul 2017 #15
unblock Jul 2017 #7
Kaleva Jul 2017 #19
Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #25
Kaleva Jul 2017 #26
Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #27
Kaleva Jul 2017 #28
enough Jul 2017 #8
The Blue Flower Jul 2017 #9
Gothmog Jul 2017 #10
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #11
Jersey Devil Jul 2017 #12
NobodyHere Jul 2017 #16
Jersey Devil Jul 2017 #18
unblock Jul 2017 #24
Jersey Devil Jul 2017 #20
Kaleva Jul 2017 #23
Yupster Jul 2017 #22

Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:21 PM

1. Donald's life more limited than he realizes.

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:23 PM

2. Did I mention he cannot pardon State's crimes?

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:26 PM

3. Just to confirm, everyone that has accepted a pardon has admitted guilt?

 

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Response to Not Ruth (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:28 PM

4. Some don't accept the pardon because of that.

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:31 PM

5. Is there a requirement to admit guilt publically?

 

Or can you still do it secretly?

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:58 PM

13. How can someone refuse a pardon?

There is no procedure for a person to reject it. He is pardoned, like it or not.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #13)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:05 PM

14. Look up George Wilson

 

He refused a presidential pardon albeit it was some time ago.

There was also a prisoner that refused Obama's clemency too.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:10 PM

17. Thanks, read it, but it makes no sense

To reject a pardon there would have to be some type of legal proceeding in which the person accepted or rejected it. As far as I know there is no such thing, so how did Wilson get before the court to reject a pardon?

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #17)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:21 PM

21. There was some proceeding for Arnold Jones to reject Obama's clemency

 

I imagine some lawyer (or Wilson himself) found a way for Wilson to reject a pardon.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:32 PM

6. Accepting pardon does not have to require admitting guilt. See Nixon. (n/t)

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:08 PM

15. The act alone of accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:36 PM

7. I don't think this is correct.

I agree that burdick determined that acceptance and use of a pardon implies an admission of guilt.

However, I don't think that happens unless and until the person pardoned actually presents the pardon in court in order to dismiss a charge or reduce or eliminate a sentence.

It defies logic that the mere issuance of a pardon implies that the recipient has taken any action whatsoever. In fact, some pardons were issued posthumously. The dead obviously aren't admitting anything.

A self-pardon is a peculiar case. One might argue why would a president self-pardon if he didn't intend to use it, but in fact the mere issuance of a pardon can deter an indictment, obviating the need to actually use the pardon.

So not even a self-pardon implies an admission of guilt, legally speaking, until it is actually used in court.

*politically*, that's another story entirely. A self-pardon would stink to high heaven if guilt.

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Response to unblock (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:15 PM

19. A person who rejects a pardon can then still plead the 5th during testimony

A person who accepts a pardon cannot plead the 5th.

As for pardoning the deceased, I think that's more for show as the dead cannot accept or reject the pardon.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 06:13 AM

25. No, that's simply not true

 

I see nowhere anything tht says once pardoned you lose your 5th Amendment rights.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 08:51 AM

26. Experts say otherwise

" Once someone is pardoned, logic suggests that they can't invoke the 5th Amendment to avoid testifying, said ethics expert Melanie Sloan. “You only have the right to exercise the 5th Amendment when there's a possibility you could incriminate yourself and be charged with a crime.” So if you pardon people and Mueller's investigation is ongoing, they could be compelled to testify against you."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/07/21/a-legal-guide-to-pardoning-yourself-if-youre-the-president-of-the-united-states/?utm_term=.f1fd1aa4f293

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 09:35 AM

27. That's someone's interpretation and not actual law

 

For every person who says that you can find people who say otherwise.

The only thing that matters is actual law.

There is no actual law, nor any case law, that backs up your claim.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 09:44 AM

28. There's is Burdick v. United States

"A grand jury was investigating whether any Treasury Department employee was leaking information to the press. George Burdick, city editor of the New York Tribune, took the fifth and refused to reveal the source of his information. He was handed a pardon by President Woodrow Wilson but he refused to accept it or testify. He was fined $500 and jailed until he complied. The Supreme Court ruled that Burdick did not have to testify because he had the right to reject the pardon. Thus, the government did not have the ability to cause him to lose his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination through the maneuver of granting him a pardon. The Court declined to answer the question of whether the pardoning power may be exercised before conviction.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:42 PM

8. I don't think Nixon officially "fessed up" at the time of his pardon.

He did unofficially "apologize" some years later.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:58 PM

9. The very definition of pardon confers guilt

Otherwise there is nothing from which to be pardoned. Whether the pardoned person accepts that or not.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 01:04 PM

10. For this thread

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 08:53 PM

11. Good tweets there!

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:56 PM

12. There is no need for anyone to "accept" a pardon

The Constitution does not require that a pardon be "accepted" and no one must admit guilt to be pardoned.

If a President pardons someone then that's it. The person pardoned need not accept or reject it or do anything. In fact, even if the person pardon publicly rejected it the pardon would still be in place.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:08 PM

16. George Wilson and the Supreme Court disagrees

 

The pardon must be accepted to take effect

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:12 PM

18. That case is from 1833 and of little value

There is no provision in the law for anyone to either accept or reject a pardon.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 12:14 AM

24. the prosecutors and/or the courts may not be aware of the pardon.

in such a case, the person pardoned would have to claim and show evidence of the pardon.

not a likely scenario in a very well-publicized case such as a presidential self-pardon, or in nixon's case, but certainly could happen in a minor case.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:19 PM

20. What about posthumous pardons?

People are pardoned after death, often because it is determined later that they were wrongfully convicted. Obviously a dead person cannot accept or reject a pardon or admit guilt.

According to the Wilson case from 1833 being quoted a pardon has to be accepted or rejected to be effective. Sounds to me that Wilson is simply bad law from a long time ago.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #20)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:36 PM

23. A posthumous pardon is like pardoning the Thanksgiving turkey

neither of them actually do anything because neither the deceased or the turkey are capable of accepting or declining the pardon.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:30 PM

22. Did Weinberger ever admit guilt?

I remember how incensed so many people were when the Special Prosecutor indicted Bush's Sec of Defense four days before the election. Clinton probably had it wrapped up anyway, but that was sure a weird election with Perot and indictments the weekend before the election.

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