Safe, legal and rare. Part II.

[flamin lib]

Part one here, so if you weighed in there you may want to eschew this thread. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029419706

It seems there is a lot of interpretation concerning the 'rare' part. Does that word mean an abortion is something to be ashamed of? Does it mean there should be room for exceptions? Does it mean someone a closeted anti-choice?

I meant none of those things and nor does anyone in my circle of friends who use the the Safe, Legal and Rare phrase.

Rare is part of the equation because people and contraception aren't infallible. Unwanted pregnancies happen. Sometimes without consent.

Then there are the intentional pregnancies that just don't go as planned and termination becomes advisable either for the life/health of the woman or the condition of the fetus.

So, yeah, rare. Until all those variables can be prevented and no longer plague women of child bearing age rare is the best we can hope and strive for.

I know this won't satisfy some of the purists among us but then not much will. If that means you stay home on election day and we all get the government you deserve, I guess we'll just have to live with it.

[David__77]

1. What's with this "purist" bullshittery?

You can call for abortion to be rare if you want to.

Others may not choose to use that phrase. I find it defensive.

[Warpy]

2. It means comprehensive sex ed should be taught in schools

and that contraception should be part of health insurance. The combination would make abortion a lot rarer than it is now, but the preachers would all have hissy fits over it. That's why we can't have nice things and the abortion rate stays high.

Both chemical and surgical abortions are painful. No one wants one unless the only alternative is unwanted childbirth. Making them rarer with the two part approach of sex ed and readily available contraception would reduce them. Nothing will stop the need for safe, legal abortion, human beings being fallible creatures.

Bottom line is antiabortion laws will kill women by making abortion illegal, unsafe, and all too common since contraception will be lumped in with it.

[smirkymonkey]

8. +1000

This, exactly!

[uppityperson]

3. You were doing good until the last paragraph. No rec for ending with name calling.

[flamin lib]

5. Sorry, but talking about abortion is kinda like talking about guns. There's just some real hard

stances on the topic.

I wanted to clarify that Safe, Legal and Rare means fighting to keep this medical procedure available without restriction and reducing the need for it with education, contraception, legal intervention when needed and any/every other tool available. It isn't defensive, compromising or weak. It's reality.

[Caliman73]

4. Why start another thread? Why not kick the old one?

I think that part of what set people of is how you presented the phrase, as if it were the definitive and only way to discuss and approach the topic of abortion.

Perhaps you could have introduced the topic in a more nuanced way, letting members know that it was a phrase that you used in your particular group of friends who understood it's meaning within your group.

The phrase has historical context from the culture wars of the 90's when Democrats, perhaps alarmed by the vehemence of the anti-choice movement masquerading as "pro-life" back peddled and threw in the "rare" in order to find a place where people could avoid the heat of the debate. The link below, sorry for such a long one, is to a book that discusses the issue and includes a "Critique of the goal of making abortion 'rare'"

https://books.google.com/books?id=AHNsBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=when+did+%22safe,+legal,+and+rare%22+begin+to+be+used&source=bl&ots=FN-rtlKYK_&sig=E6lqvqjyJP5z0xLadwpVsB5VWc0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz58XX4cHVAhVEyoMKHQuuBpQQ6AEIYDAJ#v=onepage&q=when%20did%20%22safe%2C%20legal%2C%20and%20rare%22%20begin%20to%20be%20used&f=false

It isn't about purity as much as it is ceding more ground to people who would put women's rights on the back foot.

[Nay]

17. Thank you. It's been a long enough time that many people don't know the origin

and purpose of that phrase. It was a phrase meant to appeal to "pro-life" zealots, but of course it didn't -- Dems then, and some Dems now, just don't realize what's wrapped up in the pro-life world view.

PLs want to eliminate abortion, certainly. But then why, some Dems wonder, do they not want to have all forms of birth control easily available for everyone, so unwanted pregnancies (and thus abortions) could be prevented?

Because the original and driving ambition of eliminating abortion (and, ultimately, birth control as well) is to control women. They want women to get pregnant if they fuck, AND to have no way of preventing or ending pregnancy. That way, they can tell who the sluts are, and married women will be chained to baby after baby, having to do whatever their husbands decide.

I personally couldn't care less if every woman had 3 abortions apiece, and the word 'rare' makes Democrats look like they are bowing down to PLs. Which they are. And that's one of the reasons the Dems have been losing for years. STOP GIVING THESE YOWLING MORONS ANY CREDIBILITY.

[loyalsister]

6. Rare suggests that someone is one the fence

and not entirely comfortable with someone having the procedure. I would say it would be a good thing if unplanned pregnancies so that women don't have to worry when it happens. But, as far as abortion, I rally don't care what the frequency is as long as it is safe. I'm sick of people deciding that another woman's abortion is a tragedy or traumatic or bad or even unfortunate because it is truly not my business unless it me or someone has asked me to care about their situation.
Rare is an unnecessary addition to a pro-choice position that opens the door for my own personal doubt because it comes across as slogan that judges the procedure.

[NanceGreggs]

7. It suggests no such thing.

The concept behind saying "abortion should be rare" is that with full access to sex education and birth control, unwanted pregnancies would become increasingly rare.

It is no different than saying that if every child had access to vaccinations and healthcare, childhood diseases would be rare - or saying that if there were solid programs to address homelessness, homelessness would be rare.

It has nothing to do with personal doubt, or a "judgment" of the procedure. It is a simple statement that conveys what I should think would be obvious, i.e. that the need for abortions diminishes when
the number of unwanted pregnancies diminishes.

There will always be some need for abortions - women pregnant by rape or incest immediately comes to mind, along with a myriad of other reasons. And every woman who wants one should have one, no questions asked. I've had one myself.

But the aim of making abortions "rare" is what organizations like Planned Parenthood are all about -
the woman who has access to sex ed and birth control is much less likely to have an unwanted pregnancy than women who are denied such access.

[smirkymonkey]

9. Thank you Nance.

Well said.

[loyalsister]

18. I think that would disappoint some politicians and voters

Why do candidates not say that they want childbirth to be legal, safe, and rare? Maybe because they are pretty sure that voters might see childbirth as good and abortion as bad.

Do you really not think it implies that a candidate finds abortion so undesirable that they might vote in favor of parental notifications, or vote in a way that enables "partial birth abortion" bans?

I think it might be to our advantage to depoliticize the argument and reclaim language. The artificial prochoice - prolife lines create a false dichotomy. Safe legal rare is a chickenshit use of that language that politicians hope will make people who oppose abortion a little more comfortable.

[NanceGreggs]

20. Chickenshit language?

No, it's to-the-point.

Abortion is the means by which an unwanted pregnancy is terminated, and should be safe and legal. The idea should be to make unwanted pregnancies "rare", which would mean less abortions being necessary.

That is, and always has been, the aim of organizations like Planned Parenthood. Sex education and access to birth control is a means to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place - which leads to less abortions.

That's not "chickenshit language" - it's logic and common sense.

[loyalsister]

22. That statement is specific to abortion.

Not unwanted pregnancies.
Position on abortion: Legal, safe, rare. It's very specific and concrete. Your backwards logic and assumptions about what it means when someone says they want abortion to be rare are valid because it is flexible and subject to interpretation.

My point is that Dems have been taking a weak position regarding the procedure itself for a long time. Entertaining the possibility of supporting Dems who weakly duck the question or take a weak position is nothing new. Talking about their "personal feelings" about abortion and demonizing the procedure are in the same realm as this new effort to court voters who are on the fence or lean towards an anti abortion position.

[NanceGreggs]

23. Exactly how many abortions ...

... do you think there would be if there were no unwanted pregnancies?

Are you suggesting that women who aren't pregnant are getting abortions?

You can't discuss abortion without including the fact that they are the result of an unwanted pregnancy that a woman wants to terminate, for whatever reason.

To say the statement is specific to abortion but not unwanted pregnancies makes no sense whatsoever. One is a direct result of the other - unless you somehow think that having an abortion is totally unrelated to being pregnant - which truly IS "backwards logic".

[loyalsister]

24. Unwanted pregnancy is not the only reason why someone would choose to have an abortion

There are rare occassions when wanted pregnancies are terminated due to medical complications. Your claim would only work if the procedure existed only to discontinue unwanted pregnancies.

[Revanchist]

10. I said all that I needed to say on this matter

Back when we were having this discussion on this site in 2013

[Warren DeMontague]

11. If people want to make it more "rare" through, for instance, contraceptive coverage or even making

oral contraceptives available OTC, I'm okay with that.

If there are less invasive and more convenient ways for people to prevent pregnancy in the first place, making those options easier and more available for them seems like a wise public health policy move.


But I'm not gonna tell anyone else what they "should" do. It's their body, not mine.

[LostOne4Ever]

12. It doesn't matter how you use it or meant it, it matters how it will be used against women!!! Nt

[countryjake]

13. Which "purists"? Our Party Platform dropped "Rare" in 2008

for good reason.

To frame a medical procedure in such a way that presents it as some unreasonable last resort or dire necessary evil lessens the significance of that "choice" any woman may make during her fertile years, placing an undue stigma on a person's conscientious, moral decision, and in essence, devalues women's lives.

There is nothing immoral about a woman having control over her own life; autonomy is a basic human right. Adding conditions to when and if or how often a woman wishes to bear a child makes her equality as a human conditional and plays right into the hands of those whose only goal is to further subjugate every one of us.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. "Rare" implies that the fewer abortions there are, the better, which implies there's something

morally wrong or physically dangerous about them. We would never say "the fewer vasectomies, the better."

[NanceGreggs]

21. The fewer abortions there are ...

... the better - which means that the fewer unwanted pregnancies there are, the better. Pretty simple stuff.

We DO say "the fewer heart attacks, the better" - meaning preventative measures that make heart attacks less likely to happen, the better. It doesn't imply that having a heart attack is "morally wrong", does it?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. But in talking about abortion, we're not talking only about "unwanted" pregnancies.

People with planned, wanted pregnancies need abortion too. Absolutely, better contraception education and use is important. But saying "safe, legal and rare" -- like the OP did -- makes it sound as if abortion is something to be avoided, not unplanned or unwanted pregnancies. Inaccessibility makes abortion rare, too. That's why "safe, legal and rare" is such a great catch-phrase for Dems who feel fuzzy on abortion.

Comparing abortion to heart attacks makes no sense to me. One is a neutral, routine elective healthcare procedure. The other is a syndrome that one can reduce the risk of but never fully prevent.

[NanceGreggs]

27. Yes, some abortions are not a result ...

... of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. That's why the term "rare" is used, rather than saying "abortion should be legal, safe and non-existent".

Would you have a problem with the phrase "Let's live healthy lifestyles that would make heart attacks rare"? How about "Let's focus on educating all children, and make illiteracy rare"?

"But saying "safe, legal and rare" -- like the OP did -- makes it sound as if abortion is something to be avoided, not unplanned or unwanted pregnancies."

The need for abortion is greatly reduced when women have access to sex ed, birth control, proper pre-natal care, etc. The fewer unwanted pregnancies, the fewer abortions - common sense.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

28. It's clear we're on the same side but aren't going to convince each other of our positions.

Which is fine. In the end, for me, saying abortion should be "rare" in a three-word talking point without addressing explicitly contraception and education gives a camel's nose too much room.

[dembotoz]

15. Hate this phrase makes me cringe.. support reproductive Rights period

Don't trust those who say it

[DLevine]

16. Safe, legal, and accessible. nt

[Iggo]

19. They're already rare.

[CrispyQ]

26. From the 2016 democratic platform:

We will support sexual and reproductive health and rights around the globe. In addition to
expanding the availability of affordable family planning information and contraceptive supplies,
we believe that safe abortion must be part of comprehensive maternal and women’s health care
and included as part of America’s global health programming. Therefore, we support the repeal
of harmful restrictions that obstruct women’s access to health care information and services,
including the “global gag rule” and the Helms Amendment that bars American assistance to
provide safe, legal abortion throughout the developing world.

Since the word rare isn't there, let's drop it, okay?