With all the allegations of Russian interference,

[guillaumeb]

and until conclusively proven they actually are just allegations, why overlook or minimize what to me are the obvious reasons that Clinton narrowly lost?

GOP directed voter suppression and an apathetic electorate.

The evidence for the first is abundant, from the court decision that talked of non-white voters being targeted with surgical precision, to the coincidence that after part of the VRA was gutted by the Robert's SCOTUS, many GOP controlled states immediately pursued policies to suppress likely Democratic voters.

The evidence for the second is the uncomfortable fact that approximately 44% of registered voters did not go to the polls. Some of that is likely due to the suppression, but some is not.

So rather than endless debate about
A) who is a real Democrat, and
B) who has what initial behind their names, and
C) what media talking head works for what network,

would it not be more productive to focus on the real problems of suppression and apathy?

[emulatorloo]

1. Ah the "No evidence of Russian Interference" talking point.

Musta been a 400lb man in your bedroom.

There goes your crediblity

[FSogol]

2. LOL. Sad!

[guillaumeb]

3. Feel free to refute with actual evidence.

Not allegations.

Did you ignore the rest of the post?

[emulatorloo]

7. Feel free to regurgitate more Trump and Fox News bullshit

Voter apathy and suppression are important issues.

But not at all interested in discussing them with somebody who's callously using those topics as a way to deflect from Russian interference in the 2016 election.

[guillaumeb]

9. My feeling is that you and others are ignoring the main reason

for Clinton's loss and blaming media talking heads rather than focus on GOP dirty tricks.

And I am not advocating any ignoring of any possible Russian interference, but focusing on all of the problems.

[emulatorloo]

10. My feeling is you are ignoring the thousands of posts DU'ers have made about voter suppression and

draconian voter ID laws. We're not stupid and there's lots of discussion about that.

You made a deliberate choice to frame your thread as idiot DU'ers are singlemindedly obsessed with fake news about Russian and therefore are ignoring voter suppression. That is not at all true.

Carry on

[guillaumeb]

13. And what are the Democratic politicians doing about it?

The real question. Yes, the issue is discussed here, but until Democratic politicians treat it as the huge issue it is, what will happen in 2018 if Kris Kobach is allowed to continue his actions to eliminate voters?

[leftstreet]

4. DURec

a gazillion times



DU is getting lower on my list of must-log-ons lately

[guillaumeb]

6. Thank you. I like the site,

but the problem of GOP voter suppression will only get worse unless the Democrats recognize and combat it.

[uponit7771]

12. So DT Jr did NOT meet with the Russians about interfering with our elections?

I'm maybe missing something here

Thx in advance for any input

[leftstreet]

15. We don't know why they met

All the stories differ, and all the players are lying

I'm guessing there's an element of truth in there somewhere though. No doubt it had to do with US sanctions on Russia and potential quid pro quo with the Trumpers.

How that specifically impacted elections, who knows. It's hard to imagine any 'dirt' they had on Hillary that FOX hadn't been hammering her with for years already

(I personally suspect the 'dirt' they showed Wee Trump was on Donald himself)

[emulatorloo]

20. Read Junior's emails, it is all in black in white.

He was promised dirt on Hillary from the Russian govt. He was excited about the meeting and excited about getting dirt from folks representing the Russian govt.. It is in the emails.

The emails are real, I have no idea why you're obsfugating, pretending it's "he said she said", or pretending none of this is real.

[leftstreet]

21. I just said that

I agree, there's probably an element of truth in there somewhere

And yes, it's possible he WAS promised dirt on Hillary

[emulatorloo]

22. "Possible" he was promised dirt? There is no fucking doubt he was promised dirt from the Russian

Govt. We know exactly why they met.

Maybe you never saw the NYT article or read the emails.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html

The June 3, 2016, email sent to Donald Trump Jr. could hardly have been more explicit: One of his father’s former Russian business partners had been contacted by a senior Russian government official and was offering to provide the Trump campaign with dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The documents “would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father,” read the email, written by a trusted intermediary, who added, “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

If the future president’s eldest son was surprised or disturbed by the provenance of the promised material — or the notion that it was part of a continuing effort by the Russian government to aid his father’s campaign — he gave no indication.

He replied within minutes: “If it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.”

<more at link>

[leftstreet]

26. That's what GOT him to meet

I apologize for not being clearer

Yes, we know from the emails WHY he went. What they ACTUALLY talked about, we don't know

We weren't there
They are all lying

That's what I meant

[emulatorloo]

30. Dude the fact that he agreed to meet in order to get dirt on HRC from Russia is the smoking gun.

He was eager to collude w Russia to help his dad win the election.

Everything we need to know is in the emails. What was or wasn't said in the meeting does not change the fact that Jr. agreed to the meeting in order to get dirt from the Russian govt. Thats willingness to collude w Russia.

[leftstreet]

33. Whose guilt are we talking about?

Trump and Co, or Russia?

[emulatorloo]

37. Jr had a choice, call the FBI or meet with a hostile foreign govt in hope of gettings dirt on a

political advisory. The guilt, if that's the term you want to use, is Trump & Co. He was eager to collude.

Have a great night.

[uponit7771]

40. Both !! Colluding with another gov to inject said gov in out process is fucked up in and of itself

... the bank lawyer works for the Russian gov seeing the bank was own and controlled by the Russian gov.

[uponit7771]

38. RIGHT !!! I'm not going to believe for a second the willingness just went away after the meeting and

... that during the meeting there was no agreement at all and all they talked about was adoptions and shit.

There's no reason to believe ANYTHING positive about the Trumps seeing they lie like rugs.

[uponit7771]

24. Hmmmm, here's lies the disconnect; I think the DT Jr email is a smoking gun. The meeting itself

... is collusion by the definition of the word collusion and nothing outside of the incriminating information from the email is to be believed by anyone seeing how the Trump family lies when the truth serves them better.

I think DU itself said fuck it after that IMHO ... especially when DT jr said confirmed the emails before the NYT released them

[emulatorloo]

25. Very concise.

[uponit7771]

23. This is not true at all, why they met is in the email ... do you agree with what is in the email vs

... what the lying family of Trump bastards?

Thx in advance

[leftstreet]

28. Yes, yes, yes

see above. I wasn't clear

That's what GOT him to meet with them

What was actually discussed, we don't know

[uponit7771]

29. We ...DO KNOW .. in the email it said dirt on Clinton why should anyone believe anything different?

Thx in advance

[leftstreet]

32. Yes

The lure was apparently 'dirt on Clinton'

What was actually discussed, or may have changed hands, etc during that meeting:

WE DON'T KNOW

They're all lying. Although they give a lot of tells. Trump saying 'anyone would take a meeting' about alleged dirt on a political opponent. Sounds convenient and misleading

I'd like to know what was ACTUALLY discussed
We don't know

[uponit7771]

34. What is the rational in believing anything else but the worst in that Clinton dirt was discussed?

... as the email said?

Why would I want to believe anything outside the worse for the Trumps, when the worst is documented?

Thx in advance

[leftstreet]

35. ??

You can't imagine anything 'worse?'

Where's this alleged 'dirt' on Hillary anyway?

I think it's possible it was cover
I think they knew Trumpers would meet with them because of it

I think it's possible we've yet to discover what was actually discussed

[uponit7771]

36. No, there's no need to believe anything better seeing the Trumps are overt liars. Why would beliving

... what they say over what is written be logical?

I think we have to come to some level set on the credibility of the Trumps no?

Thx in advance

[guillaumeb]

8. Agreed. Suppression is the real reason that Clinton lost.

I agree that there is much to support the idea of Russian interference, but ignoring the suppression is, in my view, a recipe for continued narrow national losses.

[Blue_Tires]

11. Hey, I tried my damndest when out canvassing

but at the end of the day I can't force people to get concerned, scared, or excited enough to vote for Hillary or at least vote against Trump...

The information was out there, and most people knew what was a stake... If they still stayed home, that is their personal failing and not mine. And to be honest, I'm still trying to understand why liberals think they have a god-given right to have interesting, exciting dynamic candidates every two years lest they stay home.... For whatever reason, that's never really been an issue for conservative voters.

[guillaumeb]

14. An excellent response.

Voter apathy due to the lack of a so-called perfect candidate is a big problem for the Democrats.

[Blue_Tires]

16. And the irony of ironies is there's no such thing

as a perfect or even near-perfect candidate -- Contrary to popular belief, even Bernie Sanders doesn't fucking walk on water... 330 million Americans, 330 million different litmus tests and interpretations of reality...

[guillaumeb]

18. Agreed. The endless waiting for the perfect candidate, followed by the endless

criticism of the inevitable faults.

All while the GOP gerrymanders and suppresses to a one party country.

[guillaumeb]

19. One hopes before 2020. eom

[Caliman73]

39. 2018. We can't overlook 2018.

We have to fight every election and start from the local, to the county, to the state, and then the national.

[guillaumeb]

42. On target C. eom

[ecstatic]

27. Good points. Those senators/congressmen who aren't on the Russia

panels should be focused on those things. Making voter registration automatic, and making voting easy and effortless. Enforcing poll access laws, and creating universal early voting standards.

[guillaumeb]

31. Exactly.

There are issues with voter apathy, but the biggest issue is the systematic suppression.

[Squinch]

41. WT everloving F??? Allegations??? ALL of our intelligence organizations have CONFIRMED

that Russians interfered in the election! The only person who is denying it is Trump(R) and now, apparently, YOU!

What is going ON here???

[guillaumeb]

43. The difference between allegations and proof is what exactly?

[Squinch]

44. I don't know who took over your account or how, but this is completely bizarre.

[guillaumeb]

45. Ad hominem?

Speak to the post.

[Squinch]

46. No. Just complete perplexity.

[guillaumeb]

47. Allow me:

why overlook or minimize what to me are the obvious reasons that Clinton narrowly lost?

GOP directed voter suppression and an apathetic electorate.

There is a post here by kpete about Indiana GOP tactics.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029444924