China just said if North Korea attacks first they will remain neutral. *

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Last edited Fri Aug 11, 2017, 09:57 AM - Edit history (1)

China just said if North Korea attacks first they will remain neutral.


If North Korea is attacked they will intervene.

This is a profound development.

If anybody mistakenly thought an attack on North Korea would be a walk in the park they should surely be disabused of that notion now.

UPDATE: BEIJING (Reuters) - If North Korea launches an attack that threatens the United States then China should stay neutral, but if the United States attacks first and tries to overthrow North Korea's government China will stop them, a Chinese state-run newspaper said on Friday.

President Donald Trump ratcheted up his rhetoric toward North Korea and its leader on Thursday, warning Pyongyang against attacking Guam or U.S. allies after it disclosed plans to fire missiles over Japan to land near the U.S. Pacific territory.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china-media-idUSKBN1AR005

[DrDan]

1. I sure hope the petulant child understands the significance of this

seems to me it is a direct message to trump

[SummerSnow]

2. All Trump will do now is attack China with his mouth and his Tweets

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. That would really be stupid.

There was no bombast in their statement, only a clarification of what they would if an ally was attacked. There did seem to be some ambiguity about their position. That ambiguity has all but disappeared.

[ewagner]

35. 1950-1952 all over again...

Trump has completely misunderstood the historical and political attachment of China to North Korea...

and...

he has completely underestimated China's paranoia over a U. S. surrogate/ally (South Korea) camping out on their doorstep with their own nukes, air force and army

[RestoreAmerica2020]

75. Well he got the distraction he needed...FEAR! Fire and fury will carry over to weekend....

"...the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself--nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes.... " ( FDR1932)

[paleotn]

58. Yep, short and to the point.

[DrDan]

49. I fear you are correct - at a time we need allies, he is divisive

[former9thward]

3. It is a direct message to NK.

Firing missiles at Guam would be a direct attack on the U.S.

[PubliusEnigma]

5. It is a direct message to Donald Trump. No preemption allowed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. It seems like a warning to both parties.

What if Trump threatens to unleash "fire and fury" on China ?

[paleotn]

60. They can do the same.....

and our ICBMs will pass each other, on the way to their assigned targets. He does know China has a well developed, modernized nuclear deterrent, doesn't he? Maybe not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. I trust the Chinese are smart enough to avoid a pissing match with Trump.

Mao is no longer in charge. They will state their objectives sans the inflammatory rhetoric.

[DrDan]

46. a pre-emptive strike by the U.S. would prompt a reaction from China - but China would

remain neutral if NK initiates conflict

a message for Trump

[former9thward]

82. When NK's only friend in the world

says it will remain neutral in the case of NK's aggression it is a message to NK.

[DrDan]

83. if NK's only friend in the world want to deliver a message to NK, it will not be done in public

[tecelote]

31. He understands.

He needs a war to make him a great President and to distract from Russia.

We all expected this to happen and here it is.

War for no reason other than the vanity of a corrupt American President. The likes of which, the world has never seen.

[CrispyQ]

61. The child is getting attention. That's all the child cares about

And making money off the presidency.

The GOP Congress isn't going to do a gd thing. Mueller better be working at light speed.

[MFM008]

63. The GOP

Has been swallowed into the earth.
"Fire and fury"
"Locked and loaded"
WTFF?
Only McCain comes out and squeeks a little.
The rest are as silent as the grave.

[CrispyQ]

70. I can't even associate with people who I know who identify as republican, anymore.

I am so angry at them & everyone who voted 3rd party & everyone who didn't bother to vote. This shit is on all those fuckers.

[MFM008]

72. Agree

....

[lapfog_1]

4. so... all it takes now is a clear definition of "attacks"

for example, let's suppose that NK launches a missile over Japan with a conventional warhead that lands near Guam (but outside the territorial waters). Is that an attack or a "test"? If we respond by having the B1s currently on patrol over NK take out many of the mobile launchers (and fixed missile sites), would China decide to intervene? Would NK then decide to fire surface to surface missiles toward Seoul? Would we respond with tactical nukes along the DMZ? Would China then launch nuke ICBMs toward our military bases in Asia?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. My interpretation of what constitutes an attack

for example, let's suppose that NK launches a missile over Japan with a conventional warhead that lands near Guam (but outside the territorial waters). (NOT AN ATTACK)

If we respond by having the B1s currently on patrol over NK take out many of the mobile launchers (and fixed missile sites), would China decide to intervene? (AN ATTACK)

[lapfog_1]

8. The question is what does China think constitutes an attack...

And what does the bully man-child at the golf course think is an "attack"?

[SummerSnow]

12. Since he is a malignant narcissist, verbally attacking is an "attack"

[Not Ruth]

9. So Guam (American territory) gets to watch for 16 minutes as armed missiles fly at them?

And if the missiles miss them by a fraction and blow up local fishermen, it is not an attack?

Do you know what is also not an attack? Not firing missiles.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I know the Deplorables believe a war with Korea will be a walk in the park.

I even saw a few Deplorables who said China would sit on the sidelines while the United States nuked North Korea. Do you believe China would sit on the sidelines while their neighbor and ally was nuked or do you believe we can dispatch of both China and North Korea without precipitating the apocalypse?

[Not Ruth]

23. What? These are many new questions that I do not have the answer to.

We are China's big source of revenue, while NK is a drain on China. Our military strength currently exceeds that of China's. I do not believe that we would need to dispatch both China and North Korea, nor do I believe that any would want to, though you could always find a few nuts and doomsayers to single out.

Walk in the park is an odd description. Nothing about missiles is ever a walk in the park.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Do you or do you not believe China will sit on the sidelines while we pulverize North Korea?

Our military strength currently exceeds that of China's.

As it did in 1950.

[Not Ruth]

29. I believe that they would protest strongly

Not sure if you consider that to be sitting on the sidelines. I do not believe that they will launch nukes at the US if that is what you mean. Can you be more specific?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. They would send troops to

If America is the aggressor it is likely China will send troops to defend the sovereignty of their ally and neighbor as they did in 1950 when they were infinitely weaker, militarily and economically than they are now. What are America's options at that point? Threaten them with nukes? They have nukes of their own. They have 300 ICBMs. That is more than enough to turn New York City, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, and every major city in the United states into rubble.

[Not Ruth]

44. As I said, I do not believe that China would nuke America

As far as sending troops to America, that is very unlikely. Sending troops to NK would be a possibility to the degree that it defends the sovereignty of NK, it seems like it could be negotiated. I believe that it is more likely that a flood of NK refugees will go to China.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I agree that China wouldn't nuke the U.S. They don't have a death wish.

They can't send troops to America. They lack a blue water Navy. My point is once China introduces ground troops into Korea our options are limited to suing for peace as they were in 1953 when China was a shell of itself and didn't have nuclear weapons.

[tazkcmo]

78. To the both of you.

Nice discussion, interesting to tread. I have one thing to add to your back and forth...20 million S Koreans within 20 Km of the 38th parallel living in the shadows of enough NK artillery pieces to make what China does a moot point. This is why any military option is a non-starter. There is no way to take out that artillery or any ICBM sites or anything else w/o massive S Korean casualties.

[shraby]

45. If I recall correctly, China backed VietNam until we left as fast as possible.

China is NEVER to be messed with. NEVER.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. And then China had a war with Vietnam four years later.

[bronxiteforever]

11. Shall we play a game? N/t

[ProfessorPlum]

18. nice. +1

[uponit7771]

80. +1

[lark]

30. Exactly!

That's the big issue with these mad and furious assholes, they could be boxing themselves into a corner where either one feels compelled to unleash "fire and fury" for some inadvertent mistake, like one of NK missiles that meant to land near Guam actually hitting the island. Or, what if one of our missiles goes astray when we do joint military maneuvers with SK? OMG!

[ewagner]

37. I think the definition depends upon the "spilling of blood"

...penis waving like tests and overflights are harmless but neither the U. S. nor N. Korea can look the other way if the blood of their nationals is shed.

[lunasun]

14. They are a super power in east Asia . Understandable they don't want chaos in the region started

by the US.
Plus the US often just pulls out and leaves after making a mess
Look at Iraq now as the most recent mess after the US attacked

[Weekend Warrior]

15. Link posted by DU member Athena about this.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china-media-idUSKBN1AR005

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. TY. I included it.

Does Trump verbally attack China now and promise to "unleash fire and fury" on them?

[Weekend Warrior]

25. It's a bold statement by China's majority party.

It would have never been made if they didn't feel Trump might actually take action, IMO. Reading the comments they made public really increased my concern about the situation. Simply the fact they found it necessary.

[lark]

36. 100% agree.

They never said this during Clinton, Bush or Obama years, never once. Why? Because they weren't worried (even surprisingly with Bush) that the president would actually fire a nuke at NK. With this totally stupid, ignorant,demented bully, they do fear the previously unthinkable action. They've talked to him and know the total danger he represents, too bad so many Americans are still as ignorant as him and don't realize the world is poised on a knife edge at the minute due to their personal idiotic choices.

[mainer]

16. a message strictly intended for the U.S.

"If you bomb North Korea, you have to deal with China."

Sounds like China believes that if anyone strikes first, it will be the US.

[ginnyinWI]

26. Good!

Now if this news will only get into Donnie's thick skull, everything will be okay and the "war" will be limited to exchanging insults.

[Raster]

71. i think there was also a subtext for North Korea...

...if you attack first, we will remain neutral... to Kim Jong-Un: If YOU start some shit, you better be prepared to deal with the shit, and not expect China to come to your rescue.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Not 100% official, pretty close. Take note, Trump. China leadership could disavow this if they wish.

It's an editorial that says "should", but since it is in a state-run newspaper it is pretty close to 100% official.

It's an armored trial balloon.

Take note, Trump.

[OutaHere]

20. Wonderful News

China will stop us.

[onetexan]

21. 2 things

1 - Both NK & China are communist nations. Birds of a feather tend to flock together.
2- China is trying to shame the idiot we have in the WH to STFU.

[aeromanKC]

22. China just saved Trumps ass!!

Question is, is Trump intelligent enough to understand..??

[lark]

38. No!

He totally doesn't get it or he'd never have been pushing the nuke meme in the first place. He thinks he can fire nukes and personally profit since he's part owner in a nuke development company. He's really very very stupid and doesn't realize the danger at all. the question is will the people around him constrain him at all? Or - are we just totally fucked?

[HopeAgain]

24. Trump is so out of his league

and China knows it.

[Alhena]

27. Ok, if Trump launches cruise missiles, what will China do to "stop him"?

If we planned a ground invasion then, sure, China could stop us. But the plans I've seen leaked call for us to use air and sea-launched cruise missiles, and China isn't going to try to shoot down our B-1s or sink our ships. If they did try they would lose to our F-22s and our navy, and they know that.

I read this as China saying "don't target Kim personally" - they may succeed in stopping us from doing that. It also may be a precursor to them invading NK in the event of war as an ostensible NK ally. That may actually be the best case scenario since China could confiscate his nukes while letting him stay in power. I think a crucial point here is that China genuinely does not want a nuclear North Korea- that is very destabilizing as current events show.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. What is North Korea going to do while we drops bombs on their heads?

[Alhena]

54. Retaliate against Seoul probably, but they won't physically prevent the US from bombing them

Let me be clear- I don't support attacking NK AT ALL.

But if Trump decides to do it, and is willing to see Seoul devastated by artillery, then he has the military capacity to bomb NK very heavily and even China can't stop our B-1s and Navy from launching hundreds (if not more) cruise missiles.

That's in contrast to his ability to, say, conquer North Korea with the US army. China and North Korea combined could definitely stop that from happening.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. What if North Korea, seeing the end is nigh, shoots their entire bolt ?

They have massive stocks of chemical and biological weapons and the primitive nuclear devices they havecan be made into dirty bombs. They use all of it and send their million man and seven million man reserve army south

What does the region look like the next day ? How do world markets react ?

Assuming we strike the first blow how much international support will we have, considering Donald trump is already a massively unpopular world figure.

[LittleBlue]

81. What if? Then their country will experience temperatures of several million degrees

I don't know what happens to VX gas when exposed to that level of heat. But every conceivable facility in NK will be targeted, and the force of the blasts will pull people out of their bunkers like spaghetti.

This will be sad for us, tragic for the South Koreans, and the end of North Korea's ability to support human life.

[bronxiteforever]

48. If we create nuclear fallout by preemptive strike on NK, China will attack

we will have destabilized the region then and the status quo will have been altered. Plus are we 100% sure that all the NK nukes are in NK? We better be.

[brush]

32. Well that's that. NK called trump's bluff by saying they will launch towards Guam...

and now China has said they will intercede if trump attacks NK.

Look for NK to now go through with the missile launches towards Guam to further call trump's bluff.

Trump will have to back down and be humiliated as the generals surely are not going to let this blustering madman of a president we have launch a full-out nuclear war with not just NK but China too.

And the 15th of August, the promised date of the Guam launch, is just days away.

As tensions continue to build, the ball is now in orange madman's court.

I hope he's not crazy enough to come back with a threat against China in response to their statement backing NK.

If he does, it's time for the 25th Amendment. Even the repugs would have to agree with that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I believe North Korea said the plans would be complete by then.

They didn't say when they would execute them or even if they would.

I could be wrong. Do you have a link ?

[brush]

53. You could be right. I just remember the 15th as being mentioned.

I do know trump has mishandled this terribly. NK has been issuing threats towards us for decades.

Previous presidents knew how to work towards calming them down.

Our "great negotiator" of a president apparently doesn't know what the word negotiate means.

He goes right to the brink with promises of "fire and fury" which leaves little room to do anything but back down or go through with it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I have to look.

The plan is to lob missiles that land near Guam. Executing such a plan is insane and dangerous.

[brush]

69. Insane and dangerous is right. And so is "fire and fury".

Two madmen is a pissing match.

We have to see who backs down unless saner heads prevail.

We've now seen how trump reacts in a crisis situation, and so has the rest of the world.

[maryellen99]

33. I still think Trump is going to preemptively attack NK

I really think that he's so desperate to stop the Russia investigation that he won't care what China does.

[ewagner]

41. Reasonable assumption n/t

[KRISITNA]

40. I bet by the end of the day, Russia will be next.

And, if that's the case, we need to get our people out of there. Where is a commander in chief when we need one?

[mainer]

42. What I fear is a Gulf of Tonkin incident.

to justify our striking first.

[KRISITNA]

47. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE

Russia is working with China on a "double freezing" plan to prevent a conflict between the US and North Korea, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on state broadcaster Russia 24 Friday.

The plan would include the US ending its joint military drills with South Korea, because "the one who is stronger and smarter must take the first step away from the dangerous line," Lavrov said.

"Together with China, we suggested a reasonable plan which involves double freezing — Kim Jong Un freezes any nuclear tests and any missile launches, we mean ballistic missiles, and the US and South Korea freeze large scale military exercises, which North Korea regularly uses as a pretext to carry out tests, and for declaring that they will rely only on their nuclear power to guarantee their sovereignty," Lavrov said.

[Not Ruth]

64. It beats a war

NK is better off waiting for Trump to be replaced.

[B2G]

52. This is actually also a warning to Kim.

Do something stupid and attack first, and you're on your own.

The wildcard is what everyone views as a first 'attack'. Would lobbing missiles into the water off of Guam qualify in the minds of the Chinese?

I'm certain it would qualify for the US.

[tritsofme]

56. Terrifying...in this environment a relatively minor incident could morph into a "Sarajevo moment"

That draws the world into war...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Silly man. If the war starts by Labor Day our brave boys and girls will be back by Christmas.

[paleotn]

57. Insert monkey wrench here.

That certainly changes the calculus. I wonder if shit stain understands that?

[Still In Wisconsin]

66. I have no doubt that TRUMP will attack NK

All this does is confirm that when we all die it will be a Chinese nuke that kills us.


TRUMP, of course, will be safe in his bunker with beautiful chocolate cake.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. The only way China nukes us if we nuke them or vice versa.

[Still In Wisconsin]

76. ...and I have no doubt that TRUMP would/will go nuclear with China- er-JINA I mean.

After all they need to RESPECT him, he is TRUMP!

[SweetieD]

67. Stability of US and NK are vital for China. Destabilization of either country could also destabilize

China. This conflict would not be like the middle east conflicts which were nightmares. This would be way worse. If the US economy goes into a tailspin so does China and many other parts of the world. A global and catastrophic depression. China wants to avoid that. The US should want to avoid it too, unfortunately we have a personality cult running our country that hates America.

[Vinca]

73. More concerning is the statement "if the United States attacks first and tries to overthrow

North Korea's government China will stop them . . . " Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, it sounds like we're toast if Don attacks North Korea if an attack hasn't been made by North Korea. North Korea might have an iffy nuke delivery system, but China doesn't.

[Johnny2X2X]

74. WWIII

This is the closest we've been to WWIII since the Bay of Pigs. China is formidable more so from a cyber and financial perspective than militarily. They might have the ability to collapse our economy.

And what is the definition of NK threatening first? If they launch a couple missiles that land several hundred miles from Guam is that a first strike? What is that threshold?

[Lithos]

77. Very sane on their part

it gives them some additional leverage over NK.

[Tatiana]

79. No one seriously expected anything different.

That's why the manboy's actions are so dangerous. We wouldn't be just going to war with North Korea, but China as well.

Not to mention our Middle East escapades.

We cannot sustain this as a nation. We cannot count on the Generals to bail us out. They are trained to follow orders.

Congress needs to do its job.

[kairos12]

84. Drumpt equates war with his fake wrestling fights when he used rubber chairs

on his opponents.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

85. Kick