Could the fact that Antifa has shown the left can be violent if they need to be, kept the right

[Quixote1818]

Last edited Sun Aug 27, 2017, 05:15 PM - Edit history (2)

in check a bit? I wonder if the Right Wing would be more aggressive now had there not been some violence after Trump was elected?

Not taking a side here yet, I just wonder if the left had looked too timid would the Alt-Right have been more embolden at this point thinking they could walk all over us?


Just asking the question because it's an interesting one. Maybe fighting fire with fire is needed in some instances? On the other hand, when the left looks violent it kind of undercuts our message so it's a fine line. I am kind of torn but I think the question should be asked. Is some violence needed from our side so it doesn't look too weak when the other side starts move at us?


Edited to add video:

[Warpy]

2. Punks gonna fight each other.

Sometimes violence can promote change a little faster than it might have happened. See: civil rights and Indian independence. Most of the time, it's counterproductive, reflecting badly on the instigators.

What I would suggest is that everybody who attends a peaceful protest or counterprotest develop an escape plan and meetup place just in case the shit starts to fly. Melt away down side streets and alleys. Just get out of the area as qucikly as you can and let the jerks who want to fight do it.

[Hortensis]

30. Putting left- versus right-wing violence in perspective:

The data are for TERRORIST ATTACKS in the U.S., but these government data say a lot anyway.

Of all domestic terrorist attacks over the past several decades,

98% were carried out by right-wing people/groups.

74% were right-wing non-Islamic.

24% were Islamic (all or virtually all right wing)

2% were left-wing non-Islamic.

[Hortensis]

31. Completely agree with the escape-route advice, but would add:

Stay with the large groups of relatively quiet, well-behaved demonstrators behind all the troublemakers, including press, pushing to the front.

Too bad those cameramen rushing to spots where trouble broke out didn't turn their cameras on the crowd also there. For perspective.

[L. Coyote]

3. Isn't the antifa website registered to a trump troll?

How can we know who the violent people really are? Agitation propaganda is an old GOP trick.

Link to tweet

[Downtown Hound]

5. Antifa existed long before Trump became a household name in politics. n/t

[Nevernose]

9. There is currently a big RW disinformation push against Antifa

Many, many fake memes and messages being passed around.

A few ways of checking legitimacy:
1. Check Twitter first, check out the followers. Antifa has no organization, certainly not national. Most of the city group pages and IDs seem real, but remember that Antifa is comprised mostly of paranoid communists (like me lol) and anarchists: they're not big on "structure."

2. Remember that these people are all ANTI fascists. They stand for the marginalized, victimized, and vulnerable. They're not going to post memes making light of violence against women, for instance, or any kind of homophobia. They're the kind of people that DEFEND others. They're just more Malcolm X than MLK. Literally the only people I've seen them threaten violence against, in real life or on the Internet, is Nazis & Klansmen & White Supremacists. They're essentially younger DUers who don't mind throwing a punch at a literal Nazi.

3. I follow Louise on Twitter (like a million others). She's right often, but other times a fantasist. I think she's probably mentally ill. Not trying to bad mouth, just saying she should require a bigger grain of salt than usual Internet. (She's right about at least some Russian involvement; they've been clandestinely funding US RW groups for at least 15 years)

[L. Coyote]

33. Are they the ones creating the violence in the first place to enable this anti-left propaganda?

That is what I am pointing to, just like the 1968 demonstrations in Chicago, the troublemakers were paid Republican operatives there for one reason, to make the Dems look bad. This is happening right now, agitators and impersonators creating the footage they want, to be able to point to violence on the left.

[Downtown Hound]

4. Here's the deal with the right:

If we are peaceful and docile, they will claim we are weak and need big strong manly men like them to protect us from evil people. If we fight back we are violent terrorists. There is no winning with them, so when the threat is as grave as it is from Neo-Nazis and the alt-right, who would gladly kill all of us in a heartbeat if they could, we might as well fight fire with fire. And to any of you out there who says that won't work, I think history would disagree with you.

I think the problem about undercutting our message is mainly because so many on the left condemn ANY attempt to fight back, even when it's justifiable self-defense. They invoke Gandhi and say we should all be like him, and say that he won without violence. What they overlook is that Gandhi was only able to win because Britain was so devastated after the second world war that they couldn't afford to hang onto India anymore. So they gave in due to a combined use of violence and non-violence. Those that say he won all by himself and with non-violence are whitewashing history.

I'm not condoning everything that certain groups do like busting out windows during protests. I personally that's stupid, a waste of time, and far too little gain for too much cost. But meeting Nazis out on the streets with clubs, pepper spray, and sticks when they show up and start terrorizing a community? That I'm all for. And I think more on the left should support their street warriors and not wring their hands all the time over what is a "proper" response. There's a lot of reports from Charlottesville that Antifa saved lives, and yes, I do think the fact that they stood up caused the fascists to back down a little.

Let's give them our gratitude, not condemnation.

[Oneironaut]

6. If anything, it has made the alt-right worse and driven people into

their ranks. They can claim that they need their guns, etc. for safety because a small number of idiots on our side go out and cause violence and destruction. It also feeds into their victim / martyr complex.

We are the nonviolent ones and we are supposed to be morally superior. Keeping the right in check by fear would just make us another authoritarian movement that would lose the support of all but a few.

They want a violent left. It wouldn't scare them at all. They use videos of violence by Antifa as a recruiting tool. They want situations where self-defense is justified, so that they can act out their hateful fantasies. They want a war.

Fighting fire with fire is a fool's errand. It puts the fire out because ashes can't burn.

[Downtown Hound]

7. Really? It has made them worse and swelled people to their ranks?

Because those of us here in the bay area just caused to them to cancel their rallies because they're so outnumbered they are too scared to come and face us. The Nazis are on the run, getting fired from their jobs, getting arrested, and getting driven out of towns before they even start talking.

If that's your idea of them winning, I wonder what you feel them losing would look like.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Outnumbered, but not outarmed. Some of them have enough brains to know...

that a conflict there could not possibly be to their benefit.

Their "winning" is simply in the propaganda wars-- as long as they are taken seriously enough to argue about, they consider themselves as "winners.'

[Downtown Hound]

11. This is CA, they can't open carry here like they could in VA

Big whoop if they have more guns back at their house. Not going to do them any good here.

And I'm calling bullshit on your statement that they don't want a conflict because they don't see it as being beneficial to them. In the immediate aftermath of Charlottesville, they were threatening to do this all over. As far as they were concerned, it was on like Donkey Kong. It was only after the universal condemnation and doxxing of them on the internet (much of that done by Antifa) that they started to back down.

[TreasonousBastard]

17. Long before the internet, George Lincoln Rockwell talked "Bring it On"-- and they did...

It did not work well for them. After that, they did whatever they could to look badass, but avoid conflict. Now, they've trying to blame everything on Antifa, but it just hasn't worked because pretty much everyone knows what a Nazi is.

No matter what Hannity would be claiming, if they got a hundred Nazis and Klansmen to march and two thousand Californians beat the shit out of them and chased them into the Pacific, pretty much everyone knows they got just what they deserved.

[Downtown Hound]

20. Here! Here!

[leftstreet]

12. +1

Link to tweet

[Oneironaut]

14. That's not an example of violence.

They were afraid to come to Boston too. There's a difference between having a large crowd / safety in numbers and purposely using violence to instill fear.

They aren't afraid of the physical threat. They want a fight. They're afraid of looking stupid. They're afraid of being exposed, getting fired, everybody knowing that they're a Nazi, etc.

[Downtown Hound]

16. And the reason why they are so outnumbered and afraid of looking stupid

Is because they were forced to reveal their true colors during Charlottesville, and that was because Antifa forced them to. But because of what happened, they are now almost universally opposed everywhere they go. We don't need to use violence to get rid of them.

Thanks Antifa.

[leftstreet]

8. Wha...when did Antifa show the left 'can be violent?'

Are you referring to something specific?

Not Trump's 'both sides' thing I hope

[Quixote1818]

21. I saw them interview a lady from Antifa and she admitted they broke windows in Portland

after Trump was elected. Not sure it this is where I saw it:

https://www.nbcnews.com/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/antifa-violence-ethical-author-explains-why-n796106

For some reason the link isn't working so google this: Antifa Violence Is Ethical? This Author Explains Why MSNBC

[leftstreet]

23. omg, broken windows! Did they run anyone over with a car?

I take the point you're trying to make, but our mileage will vary

From my experience (here on the west coast), most 'antifa' violence has been in the hands of provocateurs

[Quixote1818]

25. I agree with you. nt

[Downtown Hound]

28. And does she know for certain that it was Antifa that did that?

Antifa is NOT the black bloc, contrary to what those on the right would like to think.

[Lee-Lee]

35. They are the same bunch in many cases

If you want to admit it or not many of the people claiming to be Antifa today were Black Bloc a few months ago and now are just using new twitter handles and hashtags.

Not all. But a significant portion of the Black Bloc has always migrated from movement to movement and they now are placing themselves under the Antifa banner.

[Downtown Hound]

36. I'm guessing unlike you

I have actually known quite a few Antifa and black bloc marchers. And while you what you say has SOME truth in it, it is far from universally true. Antifa is an actual group you can join. A black bloc is not. A black bloc is merely a tactic. It has no formal organization. Antifa does. And while there may be some crossover between who participates in each, there are also quite a few who may be part of one but not the other.

And both have different goals. Black blocs aim to overthrow capitalism. Antifa aims to resist fascists and fascist policies, by force if necessary. You are falling into the exact trap the right wants you to, falsely equating forcefully resisting fascism with vandalism and property destruction. As far as I'm concerned, that's just as damaging to the left as anything Antifa could ever do.

I'm not saying no Antifa member has ever destroyed property before. But you need to be real careful about participating in these witchhunts that seek to link anybody resisting fascism and racism by force with those that commit vandalism in the name of crushing capitalism. They are not the same. They SOMETIMES may have the same people, but not always and they do not share the same goals.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. No. It invigorates them-- the right has been using Antifa as their stalking horse...

Antifa is a tiny part of the Left, just as Neo-Nazis are a tiny part of the Right. We are guilty of excessively using the Klan and nazis in our rhetoric toward the Right, and they are even more successfully using Antifa to define the Left.

Many on the Right are coming out against Klansmen, nazis, and other filth, often successfully distancing themselves from them. We really should do the same with violent leftist "revolutionary" movements.

Real issues, like the environment, housing, immigration, decent jobs... get lost in the name calling.

[Downtown Hound]

15. Those right wingers that are coming out against the Klan and Nazis will go right back to pandering

to them once they need the votes. And the only reason they have been successful in demonizing Antifa is because too many on the left make it easy for them.

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Sure. Too many rightwingers have no real argument with the Klan, but I would hope...

most of us would genuinely declaim Antifa.

[Downtown Hound]

22. I will not declaim a group that risks their life and well being

to protect others from fascists. Lots of locals were very glad Antifa was there.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. Maybe, but we should never be seen to be defending violence. Even with self-defense we should...

emphasize the original provocation.

[Downtown Hound]

26. Fine. I've been doing that since day 1.

But we should also be careful to not fall into the right wing trap of being afraid to speak out in favor of not being bullied, with violence if necessary. When we do that it plays into the right wing playbook just as much if not more so than anything Antifa has ever done or will do.

[Initech]

18. Yeah the name calling is counterproductive.

I know it's easy to call them fascists and Nazis, but as you said they're a very small percentage of Trump's base. I'm not saying all Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists are Trump supporters. Just like the right can't pinpoint all liberals as being part of Antifa. They play the name calling game well, and that's how they're able to play off the "loony left" and the "violent left" while maintaining their supposed innocence. The thing is that they're setting up traps, and we keep falling for them. We can't let the name calling and bullying get to us, I would think we're better than that.

[TreasonousBastard]

38. This all too true, bu I'm not sure how to make it better...

One of the many problems with our side is that while the other guys are talking about "What's good for me", we're talking about what's good for the planet, society, the hungry...

It's tough to get that message heard.

[JI7]

27. No. And they make it easier for the right to infiltrate and cause problems

[AlexSFCA]

29. I am afraid today's event in Berkely

is going to validate trump's claim of both sides in the media.

[leftstreet]

34. Yeah, check out this graphic violent pic. Berkeley. Today!

That's right. The counter protestors BURNED a maga hat

[Eyeball_Kid]

32. Antifa connections with Russia?

There appears to be IP addresses that connect antifa internet sites with Russian servers, or so it says on the Twitter box.

[Eko]

37. MLK and Ghandi

didnt stop the Nazis last time.