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Thu Aug 31, 2017, 11:55 AM

What the Media Got Wrong About Last Weekends Protests in Berkeley

We don't have to like the name, "antifa."

But we need to support those I now call U.S. DEFENDERS -- U.S. Defending Every Force Ending neoNazi Destruction (of) Equality, Race, and Solidarity


http://www.motherjones.com/media/2017/08/what-the-media-got-wrong-about-last-weekends-protests-in-berkeley/

The locals were fed up. Back in April, a Berkeley rally consisting of several hundred alt-right activists, including white supremacist groups, had devolved into a bloody all-day brawl.

Two weeks ago, some of those same supremacists helped organize the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, where 32-year-old Heather Heyer was killed when a neo-Nazi drove a car into a crowd of counterprotesters.

A week later, an attempted far-right rally in Boston drew some 20,000 marchers opposed to white supremacy. Last weekend marked the latest attempt of far-right and white supremacist groups to hold provocative rallies in major American cities—and once again, they were dwarfed by the anti-racist demonstrators.

Much of the coverage of Sunday’s non-rally gave the impression of violence and chaos.
But that wasn’t the story many Americans heard.

By focusing on scattered violence, reporters glossed over the bigger story: The Bay Area has become the latest target of fascist and other far-right groups promoting disruptive rallies across America, often in cities where they know they are not welcome.


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Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply What the Media Got Wrong About Last Weekends Protests in Berkeley (Original post)
ancianita Aug 2017 OP
Wounded Bear Aug 2017 #1
ancianita Aug 2017 #2
FLPanhandle Aug 2017 #3
Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #5
Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #4
ancianita Aug 2017 #6
Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #9
ancianita Aug 2017 #10
Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #11
ancianita Aug 2017 #12
Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #14
ancianita Aug 2017 #18
ancianita Aug 2017 #13
leftynyc Aug 2017 #24
leftynyc Aug 2017 #7
ancianita Aug 2017 #8
Lee-Lee Aug 2017 #16
MindPilot Aug 2017 #19
Lee-Lee Aug 2017 #22
Not Ruth Aug 2017 #26
ancianita Aug 2017 #20
leftynyc Aug 2017 #23
ancianita Aug 2017 #25
leftstreet Aug 2017 #15
ancianita Aug 2017 #21
maxsolomon Aug 2017 #17
ancianita Aug 2017 #28
maxsolomon Aug 2017 #31
ancianita Aug 2017 #32
MarvinGardens Aug 2017 #27
ancianita Aug 2017 #29
ancianita Aug 2017 #30
Coventina Aug 2017 #33
ancianita Sep 2017 #34

Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:00 PM

1. Obviously, they are trying to target large urban areas...

the heart of "blue" country. We need to keep up the protests against these cretins.

The problem is that old saw: "If it bleeds, it leads." Headlines will always tend to favor reporting on the violence and destruction, which plays into the hands of these "law and order" types. Police crackdowns don't help us, they just feed the media frenzy. It's hard to remain peaceful when heads are being cracked.

Stay strong America.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:01 PM

2. Amen to that.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:04 PM

3. "in cities where they know they are not welcome"

Of course, they go where they aren't welcome. They are going to provoke violence and prove the right wing narrative.

It is a trap and many folks fell into it.

The best weapon so far is not violence but a simple camera. Out them. They are terrified of being identified and outed.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:10 PM

5. They are not welcome in Berkeley, arguably the most liberal community in the USA.

 

They should not be welcomed anywhere.

Antifa feeds the interests of Nazis and alt.rightists.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:07 PM

4. Then why did the progressive (Bernie Sanders-endorsed) Mayor of Berkeley...

 

call for Antifa to be declared a criminal gang under California law so they would be subject to increased prosecution?

Why did the Mayor of Berkeley call on progressives to stop giving Antifa cover for their intrinsic violence?

And why the hell aren't you listening???

We should unequivocally reject the violence of Antifa, a group that is a major gift to the right-wing.

No face, no place.

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:32 PM

6. What forms do rejections of fascism take, then? What has worked to stop its growth so far?

I listen to history, which shows that silence, turning a blind eye and debate don't work.

Many mayors are afraid, stupid and lead from behind. Why you'd think some mayor of a college town knows best isn't clear here.

Exactly what models of ridding us of this white supremacist fascism can you put forward. Seriously.

If someone marches around my house, in the public space, and tells me to get rid of my PoC relatives, what do I do.

Just what actual actions do you suggest.

And what does "No face, no place." mean, anyway.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:42 PM

9. "No face, no place" means that those who want to demonstrate on "our side" should not wear masks...

 

or conceal their identities by other means if they want to march with liberal/progressives.

Is that difficult to understand? Do you support this?

The argument that the alternative of embracing Antifa violence is "turning a blind eye" is a false dichotomy, a red-herring, and an insult to intellectual honesty.

People of good-will can handle the fascists without Antifa fucking it all up. They are a gift to the Nazis.



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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:51 PM

10. Of course it's not difficult to understand. You can drop the shade casting. Of course I'd support it

There is no gift to Nazis -- that's twisted. It doesn't in any way "feed" them, or we'd have escalations by now. Giving your playground bully your lunch doesn't do anything but keep him coming back, and escalates lunch stealing in general.

You still didn't answer my questions about defense as violence -- is due force defense violence?
Or isn't it?



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Response to ancianita (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:59 PM

11. Noam Chompsy disagrees. the "gift" is his phraseology and he's spot-on.

 

And you dodged the question about why the Mayor of Berkeley is calling for Antifa to be named as a criminal gang under California law and why he's pleading with people to stop giving Antifa cover?

As to "no face, no place" I'm glad we have common ground. Spread it around. Let's work to make it the rule for all future demonstrations. OK?

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:06 PM

12. Noam Chomsky is wrong. Silence allows all the genocides he's ever covered. I've read him,

and his method was to "out" fascist genocides carried out by states against their people.

He has failed to apply what he learned about resistance in those countries. Even an unbroken clock can run fast or slow. He's off on this one.

OK! I'm totally down for the "no face, no place" idea, but the actual phrase doesn't communicate its meaning. I'll just spread the idea that no one who is morally right need cover their faces. You do know, however, that they can be photographed, too, and seriously hurt by white supremacist hate groups. Violence will be the method of fascists after their numbers have grown. Which is what the antifa are trying to prevent.

I'm still waiting for you to answer whether defensive, due force violence is the same as offensive violence.

What's your answer?

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Response to ancianita (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:20 PM

14. Chompsy is wrong, the Mayor of Berkeley is wrong, I'm wrong, everyone is wrong...

 

you alone are right.

Antifa tactics helped propel Nazis into power in the 30s as any serious student of history understands.

Let's learn from our mistakes.

Antifa doesn't practice defensive violence. The question propagates a fallacy.

Glad you're down with "no face, no place." Let's make it operational, yes!?

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:51 PM

18. Clever by half. You don't represent everyone. Some leaders are mistaken.Chomsky is no authority on

what works. He describes. He does not prescribe. He's afraid. But he knows where uncontrolled Naziism leads. He falls back on rule of law which isn't systematically applied across 50 separate legal jurisdictions.

When you claim antifa use of due force is violent, you dismiss the rightness of their cause. You toss out all their effort and the rightness of their cause because their methods scare you.

You say that because they use the methods of their opponents, they are both the same. They'll never, never be the same.

If we thought our defeating Hitler's armies made us the same, we wouldn't have cared because we knew we were in the right. We know, today, that we are not what we are called; we are what we answer to.

But you'd be the first to stand up for the kid who beats back the bully who comes for everyone's lunch money.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say antifa behavior is a "gift" when you know -- you do know -- the bullies were stopped, white supremacist parades have died down. Antifa counter-intimidations worked.

Furthermore, "everyone" can't deny that Charlottesville anti-fascist protestors proved they can win against white supremacists with their defense. That win was headlined in their local media and in national media.

Don't enlist "everyone." I doubt you know enough people to represent them. No one here has come up with a better way to counter neoNazi groups that have grown in anaerobic darkness since the Civil Rights era. The Southern Poverty Law Center has, for decades, called out for "everyone" to pay attention. Then the death threats come.

Either a united country is worth defending against Naziism or its not. It's illegal in the country of its birth. And so it should be here.

We have to try anything. Continuing to do what hasn't worked since the 1930's is the definition of insanity. We can't stand by and let bullies run the American playground. Everyone wins when everyone defends against them. We need to attack them, not each other.

I support any and all attempts to stop white supremacists. Including yours.

We must never succumb to the fearmongering false equivalencies hurled at us.

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:07 PM

13. Explain, exactly, how people of good will have prevented the growth of 900+ fascist groups so far.

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 03:05 PM

24. +1000

 

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:37 PM

7. I support their cause

 

but I will never turn my head on the violence. Never.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 12:40 PM

8. If I defend my kids from being intimidated, bullied, even hit, is my cause just? Is my due force

really violence? Or are my actions a means of protection.

If it's okay, is my defense enough to keep the intimidators from moving on toward their next targets?

Which, by the way, are liberals like us.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:29 PM

16. Self defense, legally and morally, is about proportionally

 

If someone says "I want you dead", while a threat it's not an immediate threat and it's not justified to respond with physical force.

If they say it with a knife in their hand than it can be seen as a credible threat and physical force in self defense may be warranted. It would depend on all the specifics. And your style laws will vary.

It's about if you, the individual, can say there is a credible threat of death or bodily harm.

People at a protest throwing out ideas and slogans are not a threat to the individual. If they begin to actually use force, it's a threat.

Now legally how you react to that threat will vary and what is legal will vary based on state laws. If your at a protest and a Nazi attacks you unprovoked in a Stand Your Ground state you have every legal right to defined yourself. If it's in a state without SYG laws legally you must make every reasonable attempt to retreat, run away, leave the area of danger before using force to defend yourself and if you don't do that you can actually be held criminally and civilly liable for harming your attacker- to different degrees depending on the state.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:51 PM

19. That is a thoughtful and knowledgable response.

 

But it doesn't really apply in this situation since we aren't dealing with self defense in the usual sense.

We are dealing with Nazis- not people, citizens, or even humans, they are nazis--and they should be destroyed on sight by any means available.

Nazis are a disease that must be eradicated.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:59 PM

22. You can apply different standards but the law is the same

 

If your willing to have an assault charge on your record forever and deal with the repercussions then that is all up to your judgement.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 04:35 PM

26. How many Nazis would you say are in the GOP right now?

 

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:55 PM

20. Thanks for your thoughts. It's judgment. Standing on the street in the face of hate, you can see

how misjudgments can be judged in hindsight.

Even lawyers can make the wrong call in these situations.

Our stand against neoNazis requires this kind of clarity in advance of their demands under cover of law.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 03:02 PM

23. What part of I'll never condone

 

violence not done in self defense (legal definition - you're in immediate danger) are you having trouble with? I will call it out every single time mostly because it hurts the very cause you're fighting for. Take off the fucking bandanas, don't use cans with lighters as flame throwers and try peaceful protesting.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #23)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 03:38 PM

25. Fair enough, free country. Who decides "immediate danger"? Me in my home? Or you, outside my

environment, judging my due force that might blow up into a battle? Many women who've defended themselves against abusive husbands are in jail because the safest judgment was "she was violent, too."

Not every consequence of due force is under the control of the due force user. Due force can be clearly seen when it happens. If you want to see it. I'm only concerned with unfair, lazy, fearful interpreters who wouldn't be caught anywhere near zones of protecting the downtrodden.

Agreed. I'm down for taking off the fucking bandanas. Lots of stuff can make us look like the bad guys. Then again, any confrontation looks ugly. But sometimes the cause calls for ugly. Ugly was in our messy, bloody founding. Later, confederates under Tory subsidy turned a blind eye to their own ugly, so John Brown instigated a fight to lance that ugly, poisonous boil.

The Constitution is on antifa's side. It demands that 1A be regulated such that free speech does not incite fear, intimidation or the threat of force, which are illegal.

I'm down with defensive protections by antifa, but I'm not going to presume to tell brave defenders to vet every participant that suddenly shows up, or drop everything and walk away when one black block asshole suddenly appears. And I won't admonish them to take a knife to a gun fight. Obama wouldn't, either. At some point, who "appears" to be the good guys and bad guys will just have to get sorted out later. It's what happens after the victim fights off the bully.

I endorse getting rid of bullies that oppress people of color in this country. By any means necessary. Ugly problems don't have good looking solutions.

Just my opinion.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:25 PM

15. Good citizens just need to stay home and tweet "resist"

That'll do it!

DURec

Excellent article, thanks for posting

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:57 PM

21. Thanks for reading!

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 01:37 PM

17. Don't you know the American Left must be Ghandi crossed with MLK?



No matter what you do to us, we're not supposed to fight back physically, or all our beliefs are rendered illegitimate. Non-violence is the only route open to the Left, or we turn on our own. Meanwhile, the Right gets to brandish weapons and the cops stand aside.

On 1/20/17, Antifa Medic Joshua Dukes took pepper spray away from Mark Hokoana (he was deploying it on protestors in front of the Police), so his wife Elizabeth Hokoana shot him at close range. It took the City of Seattle months to file charges, and UW hasn't even banned her from campus after clearly violating their campus firearm policy.

Pretty clear where the violence is coming from.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #17)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:28 PM

28. Indeed. It's ugly. It's going to get uglier. We need to keep a chronology of these current clashes

to keep a record of who did what to whom.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:36 PM

31. Be sure to count smashed windows and overturned newspaper boxes as "violence"

those windows bleed like crazy.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:41 PM

32. LOL yeah that's what counts. Property.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:24 PM

27. If people are walking down the streets of my city with swastikas,

fascist symbols, chanting nazi or fascist slogans, then at the very least they are guilty of menacing or criminal intimidation, and maybe:

Conspiracy to commit mass murder.
Conspiracy to commit mass kidnapping.
Conspiracy to violate the 14th amendment.

But the police don't arrest them. I believe people have a natural right to defend themselves and their communities. That being said, the law may not be interpreted this way.

To those who say the antifa are not proportional, I disagree. Ever notice that few antifa carry guns? Maybe none? I used to wonder why, but I have come to see that this is strategic. First, it reduces the odds of violent suppression of antifa by the police. Second, if the nazis use deadly force, they will look like the bad guys, because their use of force will appear disproportionate.

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Response to MarvinGardens (Reply #27)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:29 PM

29. I agree. Amplification by media are almost always the false equivalency source for these claims.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #29)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:34 PM

30. It's damned sad that antifa have to check themselves with "taking a knife to a gunfight" attitude.



Brits' anti-fascist actions have taken down the racists that were gaining ground in their public streets. The sad difference are the two countries' policing practices and policies.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu Aug 31, 2017, 06:45 PM

33. Thank you, again and again, for the work you are doing on DU

I find it exhausting trying to make the Neville Chamberlains here and elsewhere to WAKE UP!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 1, 2017, 09:49 AM

34. Thank you back! I'll quote my favorite TV writer, and free speech absolutist, Jenji Kohan,

about Charlottesville:

I intellectually understand where these people come from -- hate always comes from pain, to a certain extent. Doesn't make it O.K.

I never want to say that people can't say how they feel, including their hatred. But this [antifa] is a call to action for the complacent, to stop letting these fringe hatemongers have the floor.

I don't think the answer is 'You can't say that' -- but you're not entitled to take over city streets and start shit."


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