General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that...
"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".
All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.
All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.
How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.
What's the matter, too liberal for ya?
Response to louis c (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
louis c
(8,652 posts)I am an Secular Humanist.
I am sure when I face death that I will remain as such.
It's just a well known phrase and it makes the point that people can have flimsy beliefs.
If Ted Cruz knew he was a Socialist when he wants $160 Billion in relief for his constituents, he would deny it.
Response to louis c (Reply #4)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
louis c
(8,652 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)
since the phrase means that everyone prays as they face death. The type of prayer is not the point of the phrase.
It's a well worn phrase. I don't believe in it, I am a Secular Humanist, which is just a fancy way of saying Atheist. I still say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I still enter a church or synagogue for weddings a funerals. I still respect others' beliefs and don't ever try to change them.
If someone used this phrase in front of me, I would not correct them. On the other hand, if they say they voted for Trump, we would then have an argument.
I don't mind standing up for what I believe in, but I'm not going to fight every battle every day.
Response to louis c (Reply #15)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's why torture doesn't work for example.
Response to mythology (Reply #73)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)accept them, that is the advice that someone gave when it came to actual offensive crap about things that hurt the sentiments of a much larger group of people who were also in foxholes serving bravely and fighting for good against Nazis.
Lots of offensive things that should be put to bed, in the modern world, amirite?
Response to Ninsianna (Reply #160)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Behind the Aegis
(53,792 posts)Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #239)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Glad to see that got some much deserved pushback.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)when people's beliefs were actually attacked.
It's pretty relevant when it seems that when you have decided to take a common phrase as an attack against yourself, that's somehow not okay. Modern Western culture isn't attacking atheists or you personally with this phrase, they have robbed you of nothing, they have launched an attack.
I get it though, double standards, when brown people are being violated and it's real damage, it's okay, but when others have decided to make something out of nothing, that's fine as long as it affects oneself.
There was no thing, but the commentary and the double standards are amusing.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)When members of a minority group object to a bigoted trope why not just stop using it? It costs me nothing to be careful about the words I use.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,463 posts)Pat Tillman didn't say something before he died? Just askin'...........
Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #227)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,463 posts)language to be cleaned up of all such idioms ( I think that's what they are called). For example, the 'rule of thumb' phrase needs to be weeded out.......
Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #254)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)To be clear, I don't think it is, but the construct of your argument logically implies it is offensive.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I especially enjoyed how you rail against offensive phrases while using the "magic man" trope in as offensive a manner as you can get away with.
We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to. It's human nature...
rustydog
(9,186 posts)The hypocrisy of Republicans who claim to hate government are pretty quick suckling at the government teat .
I hole referring to the government relief programs as a teat doesn't offend someone!
Response to rustydog (Reply #44)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)help some of the folks who don't necessarily understand why federal assistance is a must in cases like Harvey or Katrina or Sandy.
brush
(53,331 posts)Someone ought to create another thread for back and forth that's hijacking this one.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I don't know how many safe places we have to create before we can even advance an argument. Now we're talking about a red herring instead of discussing your original point. It's a pity because the Left has great arguments, but the constant infighting is tiresome. I wonder if some of it it's by design.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Regardless of whether we like the phrase or not.
louis c
(8,652 posts)thanks.
Oh, can I use "Holy Shit" without offending anyone here?
Orrex
(63,057 posts)Your point was not especially sophisticated or hard to understand.
However, a number of people have taken issue with your poor wording and your refusal to recognize it.
Orrex
(63,057 posts)Specifically it was worded in such a way that clearly indicates that the OP holds the phrase to be true?
The key part is "just as," meaning that the truth of one subsequent phrase is "just as" true as the other subsequent phrase. That is, if we accept as true the repeatedly (and currently) demonstrated phenomenon of even the most spirited Libertarians grateful to accept the help of the socialist government, then we should equally accept that there are no atheists in foxholes.
On the other hand, we could conclude that--since there are atheists in foxholes--then not everyone is a socialist during a natural disaster.
From a rhetorical standpoint, the comparison falters.
A more accurate way to word the OP is this:
"Although it's not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, it is absolutely true that Capitalists welcome Socialist aid in times of disaster." Phrased that way--which we can infer was the OP's actual intent--it's clear that the comparison doesn't quite work as constructed.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Your choice of expression is at question not the message. The intent of your post may be well-meaning but the subject matter is bigoted.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....when he was thrown into a ditch by an explosion in Korea. He wrote that the blast "caused him to pray fervently to Jesus".
I've heard and/or used that expression dozens and dozens of times over the years, I've never heard any objections to it.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Acceptable but is now recognized as being insensitive. The mere fact that statements, idioms, tropes and terminology were once used without objection does not equate to being inoffensive and/or insensitive.
Chemisse
(30,783 posts)I've never complained about it and don't ask that it be banned on DU.
But it is insulting. It's a smug assertion that when push comes to shove, all atheists will 'come to Jesus.'
Towlie
(5,305 posts)kacekwl
(6,986 posts)into it. Good point.
I just thought it was a clever phrase to use as an analogy, especially to my RW religious friends who voted for Trump and want smaller government. It seemed like a point they could understand and be left without a response.
I certainly didn't expect this reaction from some of our DUers. I'm an Atheist. I have read the Bible numerous times for its historical content and to argue points of hypocrisy with right wingers.
This phrase never hit me as bigoted, any more than "Voodoo Economics" or "Witch Hunt" is a bigoted statement.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)And I respectfully suggest you might consider giving it some thought.
Crash2Parties
(6,017 posts)is,
"a superstitious religious hypocrite"
Witch Hunts were the Church hunting down mostly women in local positions of power during the 1480's to 1600. The trials were usually quite superstitious and were used to eliminate the last traces of matriarchal / matrilineal societies in much of Europe as they were a threat to the Church & it's partners.
Voodoo Economics used the word "Voodoo" in a similar way, which historically established that non-christian beliefs, cultures and religions as "false", "ignorant" and "primative".
So, considering the etymology of the words, ...yeah. They don't *seem* bigoted...to people in a white, male, christian dominated society.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)to make and didn't read too much into it. Jeez, a lot of touchy people here. I can't believe how many people took offense to this.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)But it also leads to bickering over arcane, academic minutiae. Makes it hard to present a unified force against the jackboots.
I'm a Buddhist, which is inherently atheist (though some schools worship shakyamuni as if he were a deity, against his teachings. But I digress, in an arcane and academic fashion.). So I'm always having to mentally parse common wisdoms of a Judeo/Christian culture.
Gore1FL
(20,993 posts)The "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster" then becomes a logically false assertion too.
Perhaps a better title would be "You can be an atheist in a fox hole, but it turns out that being a Socialist during a natural disaster is mandatory." or some such.
louis c
(8,652 posts)The last line is the give away.
"Not too Liberal for Ya"
Certainly that's meant for Freepers and to be used by DUers against our opponents.
A vast majority of DUers got that, hence the 155 recs.
Some didn't.
I'm sorry for that, but I'm not in the habit of trying to please everyone I meet. Not even here.
Gore1FL
(20,993 posts)Additionally, if 155 of DUers is a "vast majority" this site has really taken a membership hit.
You're 0-2 on logic points at the moment--the difference though is the second one wasn't an offensive falsehood like the first.
louis c
(8,652 posts)you are not going to say that anybody who didn't read it agrees with you?
There was only one more popular OP in the time frame.
And, it was alerted and had a jury that found in my favor, which is a random sampling of DUers
I contend that logic dictates that you're 0 for 2!
Gore1FL
(20,993 posts)I'm happy for you that you made a popular post. Popularity does not equal validity nor does it elevate your arguments to sound logic.
Congratulations on your recs. Please try to do better content-wise in the future. Who knows, you might even get more.
TTFN
Orrex
(63,057 posts)And even if you get a million recs, you still worded your OP poorly.
You are singing your own praises as though you are waving an electoral map, and it doesn't help your credibility.
louis c
(8,652 posts)Whatever advances the cause of Democrats is the mission I signed on to.
I'm a Democrat and an Atheist, but I didn't join Atheist Underground.
Solly Mack
(90,730 posts)My husband is an atheist and he served for over 20 years - in and out of foxholes.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)trof
(54,255 posts)I'm an atheist.
Never been in a foxhole.
But I've been up on a night refueling mission in thunderstorms in an F-84 that was getting beat about at 25,000' and still managed to hook up with a KC-135 in spite of my lack of religious beliefs.
Give it a rest and try to be not so easily offended.
Thank you.
Response to trof (Reply #48)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)trof
(54,255 posts)Sorry bub.
I just don't get it.
Good luck with that.
Response to trof (Reply #72)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
trof
(54,255 posts)I'm not even sure that 'atheists in foxholes IS a trope, by the above definition.
But OK.
The term trope derives from the Greek ??ό??? (tropos), "turn, direction, way", derived from the verb ??έ???? (trepein), "to turn, to direct, to alter, to change".[3] Tropes and their classification were an important field in classical rhetoric. The study of tropes has been taken up again in modern criticism, especially in deconstruction.[5] Tropological criticism (not to be confused with tropological reading, a type of biblical exegesis) is the historical study of tropes, which aims to "define the dominant tropes of an epoch" and to "find those tropes in literary and non-literary texts", an interdisciplinary investigation of which Michel Foucault was an "important exemplar".[5]
WHEW
Examples[edit]
Rhetoricians have closely analyzed the great variety of "twists and turns" used in poetry and literature and have provided an extensive list of precise labels for these poetic devices. Examples include:
hyperbole
irony
litotes
metaphor
metonymy
oxymoron
synecdoche
For a longer list, see Figure of speech: Tropes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)
I won't make a judgement call but it is still MHO that you're pissed about SOMETHING.
Anyway, good luck with whatever it is that put a burr under your saddle.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)statements should "chill out", are unacceptably angry, or "have a burr in their saddle".
Brainstormy
(2,379 posts)It's patently false.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)That's the issue. Period.
betsuni
(25,062 posts)"Please get a designated driver. And stay hydrated."
CCExile
(451 posts)like the ones below are a major reason the fascists are IN and we are OUT. I know many, many atheists, and I can only think of one who would be offended, and she is offended by everything.
Response to CCExile (Reply #66)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)CCExile
(451 posts)Keep our vote counts small.
trof
(54,255 posts)I'll even go this far...
If you're an atheist you're probably fairly thick skinned.
louis c
(8,652 posts)I'm the OP, I'm an Atheist and there was no harm intended. It's an old saying that people on the religious right can understand, therefore, the analogy would expose their hypocrisy for smaller government.
I'm a Socialist first, and an Atheist second.
Lars39
(26,088 posts)to them at others expense?
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)It strikes to their belief system.
I am heartened that 146 recs, which puts this OP on the 5 star greatest page, proves to me that a vast majority of my DUers understand my subtlety.
The fact that this post was alerted and found without fault by a randomly chosen jury of objective DUers seems to prove my point.
Another old story: "A woman was watching her son in a military parade. He was obviously marching counter to his fellow soldiers. She said to her companion, 'look, look, everyone's out of step but my son.'"
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)With a simple "a lot of people believe that".....
Very easy way to turn a false statement into a true one.
With respect to your quoting the number of recs (yet again) -
"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."
louis c
(8,652 posts)....without my lead in about fox holes.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029552428
As you notice, it has 2 recs, over 150 less than my OP and well over 200 fewer replies. It has twice as many views as any post (other than Skinner's instructions) as any other post in the past 36 hours.
Of the 2 recs in the other post, one is mine and of the 7 replies, one is mine.
The last line is the give away "What's the matter, too liberal for 'ya?" That line has to be meant for Right Wingers. Certainly it's not meant for DUers.
The most important thing in making a point as that people read it.
By the way, about the recs. These are DU recs and we can assume that each one is as Liberal as either of us.
It's not like people from Free Republic are agreeing with me. They're DUers!
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)I just realized your last post directed to me on this subthread was in response to a post of mine that wasn't even a reply to you. So one can only assume you're monitoring the whole shebang and playing whack-a-mole, still. Sheesh.
Your goal seems to be to get everyone to agree with you, and, furthermore, to say they feel the way you want them to feel. Ain't going to happen. Not my problem if you persist in not listening to others and not thinking anyone else may have a point.
And recs are not proof of right, even on a liberal message board.
Now how about giving up on this? You "won."
louis c
(8,652 posts)I never said anyone else didn't have a point. I just disagree.
If I worried about not offending anyone, ever, politics would not be my interest. I'd collect stamps or something.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)I put quotes around "won."
Over and out.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)I hate that phrase. It is theist bigotry.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)Blecht
(3,803 posts)BTW
Just served on a jury -- your response was alerted as a "personal attack" -- LOL.
Of course I chose "intent to disrupt" at the end.
Brainstormy
(2,379 posts)Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #155)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)onit2day
(1,201 posts)they get blown to bits like everyone else. Desperate people will grasp at anything that might save them. What the phrase assumes is bogus as if when a person becomes desperate enough he will come to his senses. It's like saying you can believe in any religion you want as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, lol. Now back to those who are trying to create such fox holes.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)Not to mention, the ridiculous idea that in cases where it has occurred, the questioning or even reversal of belief in some extreme, terrifying moment serves as solid proof of some greater truth. Especially as related to those from societies where they've been exposed to pro-religious propaganda all their lives.
Cary
(11,746 posts)The phrase was put in quotes. You not only understand the opening post, but you agree with the principle. You don't have to whip things up. We have real and malicious enemies.
calimary
(80,522 posts)You get people the help they need WHEN they need it. You tend to THEIR needs immediately. Plenty of time later to quibble about how much it costs, when the emergency has passed or abated substantially.
People need the help. And they need it right now. Screw what it costs.
And this is ALSO not the time to be considering any kind of tax cut. You use every tax dollar you can on what people in this magnitude of trouble NEED, right NOW. Frankly, AS a taxpayer, I think that's a tremendously worthy use of my tax dollars.
Response to calimary (Reply #2)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
panader0
(25,816 posts)I lay awake at night and wonder if there really is a dog.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)where we appeal to a 'deus ex machina' to deliver us from; where we even offer to 'make deals' with some Supreme Being if only...
A foxhole can be one of them. Waking up in a jail cell is another.
"Bigoted anti-Atheist trope?"
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #11)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Nothing more.
You know what?
I'm glad you're in my Big Tent! The more the merrier!!!
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #18)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
ChazInAz
(2,528 posts)Why are you so stubbornly missing the point?
Why are you attacking a fellow member for a peripheral statement that is only incidental to the message?
Or are you just shit-stirring?
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)thank you! The statement in question had really nothing to do with the point of the post. It was a trite saying used in a rhetorical way to make another point, which very few people here seem to want to address.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)betsuni
(25,062 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)By Philip K. Paulson
Watching the Vietnam War during the mid-1960s on the nightly news inspired me to perform my patriotic duty and join the U.S.Army. There, I was trained as a light weapons infantryman and a paratrooper. I was ordered to the front lines of battle in South Vietnam in September 1966 and fought until January 1968. I extended my tour of duty for the special privilege of an early honorable discharge.
***
I knew that proclaiming to be an atheist while on duty in South Vietnam could likely prejudice promotions and possibly cause harmful reprisals. An atheist was perceived as tantamount to being a communist. Our army chaplain was a fundamentalist Christian who saw the devil in virtually everything he didnt believe in. Army chaplains wielded a lot of power; their opinions could make the difference between whether or not you got promoted. So, I was quiet about my nonbelief in God.
I suffered through horrifying moments, expecting to be killed. I was convinced that no cosmic rescuer would same me. Besides, I believed life after death was merely wishful thinking. There were times when I expected to suffer a painful, agonizing death. My frustration and anger at being caught in a dilemma of life- and-death situations simply infuriated me. Hearing the sound of bullets whistling through the air and popping near my ears was damned scary. Fortunately, I was never physically wounded.
One day I heard the chaplain preach that we should be happy and willing to die so that we could be with Jesus. After hearing that, some people praised God. I cursed God. Cursing and swearing were very therapeutic and healthy for me; it gave me the courage of Hercules. It gave me confidence in my ability and skill to stay alive. I was determined to live on this side of the grave. I could not believe that there was a better life than this one, so I rejected the foolish notion that my existence was based upon the extremes of God and the devil, heaven and hell, and life after death.
When facing death, my thought was to stay alive. I was just infuriated by all the people praying and wasting my precious time and theirs. When the chips are down and theres no one to turn to for help, and youve found out that its just you who has been helping all along, thats the big difference. I discovered in combat that there is no one to turn to its just you who has been saving your own ass all along. My answer to death was simply, Oh well, Ill be pushing daisies. If I survived and looked at another persons death, Id think its not my body thats being counted. I was fighting to stay alive not praying for life after death.
https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/i-was-an-atheist-in-a-foxhole/
It is insulting to tell atheists that they will beg to be saved by a god they don't believe in as soon as their life is in danger.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I understand the 'sentiment' of the words.
It's not an indictment of atheists.
Now we crucify fellow Democrats over some freakin' words?
Jeez!
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I'd say most people get the analogy and are missing the offense.
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #28)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)It's not literal, and the phrase is not being used literally.
This definitely doesn't even nudge my cone of militancy regarding offensive things people may say.
I have a party and a president occupying that space.
How do you feel about our "National Day of Prayer" today for the victims of Harvey declared by our federal Executive Branch?
THIS OP is offensive?
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #37)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)That's why they are called 'generalities.'
'Deus ex machina' refers to an ancient Greek artifice in plays where the problems were resolved by the sudden entrance of a god that fixed everything.
A 'Supreme Being' would be that miraculous intercessor who would pop in out of the blue and fix our problems under extreme circumstances.
How is this a bigoted, offensive affront to atheism?
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #69)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The use of that phrase is offensive to atheists and I'm explaining why.
Mariana
(14,830 posts)I too wonder at the use of such violent imagery. The OP has not been called names, or threatened, or insulted in any way. But yallerdawg implies that merely expressing disapproval of the use of that offensive phrase is just like hanging someone on a tree to die slowly and painfully. Nice.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I haven't seen anyone attack the op, just a bunch of atheists objecting to a bigoted trope. I mean that's not up for debate, it's offensive as hell.
But they did used to say we ate babies, and someone did just call us militant, so maybe virtually crucifying people on the internet is the new version of that?
At least no one has used the e-word yet...
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)This is freaking pathetic that anyone thinks this is okay!!!
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)We're Big but need to get Bigger!
So, you keep raisin' a ruckus for what you want to get across!
I may question your opinion, but never your right to say it!
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)Atheists, like Pat Tillman, have DIED serving their country and this trope insults every single one of them. This is one of the single most insulting tropes that can be used.
If you were on our side this would insult you. By being okay with this you are saying that we matter so little to you that you are willing to allow bigotry against us to advance a minor point.
Seriously, would you be okay if someone made a racist trope against African Americans for this?
THIS IS NOT OKAY!!!
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Dude- your username and signature meme are extremely hurtful to those of us who are actually lost wanderers.
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)That doesn't even make any ligical sense. 0/10.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)How patronizing. Do you say the same thing to other minorities when they object to bigoted stereotypes?
Behind the Aegis
(53,792 posts)It is ALWAYS good for minorities to stand up and speak out! There are some things which are patently offensive and others which, well, wear out over time and earn a place in the bigotry heap. I mean, certainly, there are certain types of "rigging" that people would object to no matter what point they were trying to make because it would be easily be understood to be bigoted.
Though I am getting a slight kick out of Warren's defense by using Jews as an example, as if that would not get a pass.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I made the point downthread that those of us who object to stereotypes are often dismissed as being sensitive snowflakes. LGBT people especially get ignored or told to suck it up. You know, because you don't want to offend anyone by being too noisy.
And yes, anti-Semitism definitely gets a pass. I got into it on Facebook with a few idiots who were offended that the anti-Semitism in Charlottesville was pointed out. You know how that goes, it's futile but somebody has to stand up.
demmiblue
(36,712 posts)Don't forget that women should support force-birther candidates. Fuck that.
Iggo
(47,470 posts)Actually, yeah it is.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's saying I'll pray when I'm dying. What presumption. How would anyone else know, unless they were there at the time, which hasn't happened yet.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)It's an indictment of foxholes.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)I think one can find offense everywhere if you really want to find it.
Not my idea of happiness.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)And always are fine with Socialism if it benefits corporations or the wealthy or them personally.
The no Atheists in foxholes is just incorrect, though
Bengus81
(6,901 posts)Any time we have severe weather here with tree damage the "government isn't the answer,it's the problem" Republican voters here are the FIRST to get limbs stacked out on the curb for local Guberment to pick up so they don't have to pay a dump fee or hire a service.
Yup Guberment SUCKS,right up to the point where "something" affects THEM and THEIRS.
marybourg
(12,531 posts)"He was against 'creeping socialism' until it creeped into Arizona".
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)government-based emergency relief is Socialism.
So we have a total thread fail.
If one wanted to make the case that many conservatives argue for small government, except when it benefits themselves and are therefore hypocrites, it would be more like it.
Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #10)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)Thanks for your advice.
Please don't be offended if I reject it.
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)You even admitted that you didn't believe it. Why is it so important to use this particular phrase that even you admit is false when others are telling you it is offensive?
By using it the entire point you were trying to make was sidelined, and it makes it seem as if you could not care less about promoting a meme that denies the very existence of people who risked (and in some cases lost) their very lives serving their country.
Why is this so important that you couldn't use an analogy that doesn't make its point at the expense of one of the most despised minorities in the country?
EDIT: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?
As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?
louis c
(8,652 posts)It's analogy our opponents will understand, in their own language.
This OP has received 76 Recs, was on the front page and now stands at the 4 star greatest page.
That was not my intention. I just thought it was just a clever little saying and can be used, as I say, in discussions with Trump voters.
I believe more people understood it than didn't. I'm sure there was an alert sent on this, judging by some of the responses. The fact the OP is still here and was not locked demonstrates a "not guilty" finding.
I hope that you accept my explanation.
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)It is a liberal site, full of activists and minorities who have suffered because of statements like these.
Does the number of recs make it true or less offensive somehow? That just means the bias is so ingrained that many people will outright ignore it. Even other atheists this is nothing new. Polls show even atheists tend to be less trusting of other atheists. Which makes it even more important to stand up against these type of statements.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/04/16/new-study-shows-that-even-atheists-think-atheists-are-immoral/
As I put as an edit to the post you are replying to: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?
As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?
I am appealing to your understanding and compassion as a liberal, please reconsider and use another analogy!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)How about a homophobic stereotype, or a misogynistic one? I don't believe the op was being deliberately offensive but we all should try to avoid using offensive tropes here.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)is to suggest arguments that DUers can use in discussions with those who disagree with us. This has been my purpose, on this site, since I've been here.
A little history. I'm a member since 2004 and have contributed every year for over ten years.
I don't come to this site just to just "preach to the choir" (I hope that phrase doesn't upset you, or force you to call me a "bigot" .
I use every day conversations, bring them to this site, and try to give some advice, and take some.
I know we are all of a like mind, relatively speaking. I know we challenge others outside of this site, every day, in their opinions, and we have ours challenged. We can learn from each other here at DU, so when we face similar situations, we can learn from each others experiences.
After all, our mission should be to change minds outside of this site, not stroke each others egos. That's the only way to make change in this country.
oasis
(49,108 posts)"If axes to grind didn't exist, it would become necessary to invent them"
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)wrong that the "no atheists in foxholes" is offensive to atheists?
Iggo
(47,470 posts)lindysalsagal
(20,318 posts)Near-death experiences in order to adopt a belief system. It's only legitimate when it does something for you, personally. The object of belief is merely a function of our fear of mortality: the object, god, or whatever carries no intrinsic value of it's own in normal circumstances. But then, there never was anything rational about faith, I suppose.
ancianita
(35,711 posts)I call it solidarity.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)is lost when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory.
More time spent in outrage over your comment than in outrage over the real problem.
Amazing.
leftstreet
(36,064 posts)Just as Republicans always say "there are no atheists..."
Ligyron
(7,574 posts)"Just as superstitious, science denying Republicans claim..."
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)So there's that little issue.....
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)DU ate my euphemism.
Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)Just as a general principle.
Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #117)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Gore1FL
(20,993 posts)It would be like saying If 1 = 0 then then there is global warming.
The statement self-sabotages.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)nini
(16,670 posts)Im so tired of constant outrage that gets in the way of discussing something.
Yes that phrase isnt true but the use of it helped make a point. I doubt the OP meant it as an insult.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)This is the shit that keeps us from getting anywhere. I am so tired of the perpetually outraged dragging us down and distracting us from the real problems we are facing.
nini
(16,670 posts)How something like the OP turns into a multi sub thread piss fest.
Any valid point gets lost in the hysteria.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)How dare people point out offencive statements!
More time is spent defending offence than listening to to those who are hurt.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)crying about the "offensive comment" than about the point of the comment.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)I reserve the right to argue with the rest of it. Just how much am I expected to ignore?
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)Apparently the term "triggered" is a right wing word that somehow magically makes bigoted words and phrases okay and allows one to say whatever hateful thought that pops into their mind without criticism or consequence.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,704 posts)Tin ear playing out right here on this thread. Derp
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Why is that?
Myrddin
(327 posts)...by an Atheist ex-serviceman.
Snackshack
(2,540 posts)Ted Cruz position on Sandy aid vs Harvey aid is a perfect example of this. I was glad to see the media call him out on it.
stopbush
(24,366 posts)If there were any true believers, they'd believe their god would keep them safe, even if they decided to get out of the foxhole and walk straight into enemy fire.
The fact that they don't believe a god will keep them safe shows they don't believe in god.
trof
(54,255 posts)If you're a TRUE BELIEVER why you'll just stand right up and walk into that machine gun nest KNOWING THAT
1. Because you are protected by your god you'll be unharmed, or...
2. If your god SHOULD decide that He wants to call you home you'll go directly to heaven and a paradise beyond your wildest dreams.
Win-Win, either way.
Where's the flaw in my reasoning?
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Pretty stupid premise. Then again, so was the OP.
stopbush
(24,366 posts)No weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
and this is their vindication from me,
declares the Lord.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)the street without looking both directions.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)"The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, "There's a Chaplain who never visited the front.""
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"A pithy observation that contains a general truth, such as, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Another example: "There are no atheists in a fox hole."
"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."
Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Susan Calvin
(1,642 posts)So there's that.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)when people are pointing out how offencive the OP is.
If you wanted to help the situation you could listen instead of silencing.
Iggo
(47,470 posts)"There are no atheists in foxholes" means "There are no atheists, because when the shit hits the fan, everyone's a believer ."
Stop digging.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Now where are the PETA people?
Iggo
(47,470 posts)askyagerz
(776 posts)I doubt many of you would make it through a episode of Tosh.0. As an atheist I find no offense here. It's an old saying and I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks its 100% true. Sometimes when you're offended you should just change the channel. Gotta pick your battles when you live in a country of free speech
I tried making the same point, and I'm getting hammered by the p.c. snowflakes too.
Good luck.
askyagerz
(776 posts)P.C. police definitely hurt the progressive cause more then they help. We are all adults here. We don't need our wrists slapped. We know exactly what we are saying...
If you can't laugh at how silly the human race is sometimes then what's the point?
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I can't remember the last time I have seen such hypersensitive ridiculousness on this board. And I'm an Athiest.
askyagerz
(776 posts)If the average independent voter was to read these responses they would just roll their eyes. Like a bunch of little kids bickering back and forth. Being that P.C. is basically no different then telling someone you know better then them and no one wants to hear that shit. Sorry fellow DUers no one has all the answers. Stop trying to censor the words coming out of my mouth
kag
(4,075 posts)are apparently being triggered because they think you're insulting us atheists. As a committed atheist I find your observation quite insightful.
I watched Ted Cruz attempt some ethical gymnastics to justify his heartless vote against Sandy aide and his desperate appeal for Harvey aide. No matter his religion (or lack thereof) I suspect the only thing Ted Cruz would be praying for in a foxhole is toilet paper.
It's too bad that people can't get over your use of an analogous and common turn of phrase in order to debate the actual intent of your post. I, for one, think it was spot on.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)to Einstein, when it actually comes from a Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet.
I get it, people love these dopey double-digit IQ sayings, even when they're flat-out false. "You can't drive a car to Denver!" "It only snows on people who ski"
betsuni
(25,062 posts)Lars39
(26,088 posts)Expecting Rain
(811 posts)The line about atheists is offensive and untrue. And the second partthat government relief efforts are Socialismisn't true either.
Are so-called small government conservative hypocritical when they hate government expenditures except when they are the beneficiaries? Heck yeah.
But that's got nothing to do with either atheism or socialism.
ismnotwasm
(41,885 posts)Hilarious.
I will take your point as I believe you intended. It's a good one.
Not sure those comparing atheism to various religions is being philosophically consistent ala "A faith/Not a faith arguments" I see bruited about here and there, but I'll give the benefit of a doubt, as I also don't care.
Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #75)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's not all that surprising, you see the same attitude when people who object to racist, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic stereotypes are dismissed as being hypersensitive, easily 'triggered', etc. See it's the people in those groups who are to blame for all the rancor. If only they would sit down and be quiet.
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #83)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)According to Pew it's Muslims now, we got bumped down into the #2 spot.
Atheists Open Gap Against Muslims For Title of Most Hated Religious Group in America
WE'RE NUMBER TWO! WE'RE NUMBER TWO!
ismnotwasm
(41,885 posts)As well as missing the point of the OP? I mean all this indignation is at the least, interesting, but damn.
And yeah. I got two kids who served;one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq, and a SIL who was in special forces, so I know a little bit about military life. I never got the impression that those in the field give a shit about your religion--or lack of one. I do understand how awkward and frustrating it is for atheists to be surrounded by religion.
Most people I interact with are various shades of agnostic, as am I. The militantly atheist I know personally, are usually damaged in some way, so they end up with these obnoxious personalities kind of like Libertarians or MRA's or the overly-religious.
Behind the Aegis
(53,792 posts)You know I have a great deal of respect for you, but I want you to think about something: Would you ever tell a gay person, especially since you are not lesbian or bisexual, we were "over reacting" to something we perceived as an insult? I don't think you would. This is really no different. It isn't a matter of agreeing, but understanding the POV of someone with whom you don't share a status. It wasn't too long ago, that GLBT people here at DU were told to "suck it up", "get over it", "the ends justify the means" when it came to using homophobia against the right, especially the "president". It comes down to a matter of respect. I don't think Warren or others in this thread who are objecting to this phrase (and I add my non-atheist voice to said objections) are over-reacting, they are trying to get people to understand their point of view and they nor their POV should be mocked, derided, or otherwise be dismissed. One doesn't have to agree, nor does it mean the point of the OP is being missed, it simply means we can do better by using phrases which aren't bigoted or simply not true in order to make a point.
ismnotwasm
(41,885 posts)I opened the thread trying to figure out what the ruckus was, with all the replies.
Atheism is the lack of religious beliefs. It's not faith based, it's not an opinion, it's a way of thinking, and one I understand very well. I used to be one before theoretical physics for dummies type books were written.
While historically atheists have certainly lost their lives for daring to think, I have a hard time equating it to being Gay in America today, or being, say Muslim.
I find vehement reactions to an old idiom, rather than a reasoned response, although those came later in the thread.
But I do take your point. I find the entire thread progression a bit odd, and probably one I should stay out of, and I may shoot across the bow now and again, I'm not interested in causing actual pain with my words.
Lars39
(26,088 posts)where the "where do you go to church at" is standard in first meeting small talk, i can guarantee that there are people who cannot freely state that they are atheist. Firings can and do occur, especially in "right to work" states.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)of the word atheist... lower case as in "I'm atheist". Being atheist is not an opinion, it's a way of thinking... bravo. I usually say being atheist is not an idea, it's the condition of being non-theist. If you belong to The Church of Atheism you can say "I am an Atheist". Most of us don't go to an Atheist church... so I'm atheist.
I'm off topic but thanks.
Mariana
(14,830 posts)I wish you'd point them out. I see mostly polite requests and explanations. I also see those who objected, no matter how nicely they did it, being ridiculed and called names. There are certainly some "vehement responses" to those posts.
Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #102)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Funny how some talking points never seem to go out of style.
I finally decided to wear 'militant' as a badge of honor.
I am a militant liberal, feminist, atheist and Star Trek enthusiast. Not necessarily in that order.
ismnotwasm
(41,885 posts)(Pun intended) I didn't call YOU damaged. It's a personal observation. I know a ton of people from many different places, including activist atheists. And yeah--they're a little screwy.
I don't know you from a can of paint in the road, aside from a discussion board. You could be the veritable picture of mental health and personal stability for all I know.
Calm down, calm down--it's ok. It's OK. I get your point. I just thought the entire thread devolved into a ridiculous argument and it puzzled me. I don't use the saying either, its antiquated, but I think the OP is trying to make a broader point
I'm agnostic the way Neil DeGrasse Tyson is agnostic. Hardly muddled thinking.
Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #172)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
pablo_marmol
(2,375 posts)I stop being astonished at people who fail to acknowledge double standards a long time ago, but it's truly sad that folks can't check their egos and admit that there is more than just a slight associated with this ignorant trope. How can they possibly not see that non-believers deserve the same respect as racial minorities, LGBT folks etc.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)I'm sure even all of the atheists here agree with the sentiment.
Just for explanation, though, and I promise I mean no criticism: "atheism" is one of the major categories that people are bigoted against. Not as major as race or sex, but high up in the rankings. Weirdly high. Most higher than religious people would realize. It's kind of an invisible prejudice.
I've lost close friends when I mentioned my atheism. I was subject to a formal disciplinary hearing at my government job based on accusations of witchcraft (sorry, sometimes autocorrect suggests "witchcraft" instead of "atheism" ; they interviewed TWO HUNDRED children and I have the transcripts to prove it. I've had to pay thousands to a lawyer to prove my capacity as a parent because I was "non religious." I live for n a major West Coast city, not the Bible Belt.
I swear I've got a sense of humor; I'm just trying to explain why some of us get testy over common tropes.
Response to Nevernose (Reply #78)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Actually, atheists are often made in foxholes. When I was in the "foxhole" or mortar bunkers with my fellow soldiers, we would have discussions about this idea all the time. Afterwards, when folks were bleeding or dead, I'd ask the believers if they truly thought that they had been spared by their prayers while others around them were "taken"? Confusion usually was the first reaction.
Kinda like the guy who scores a touchdown and thanks god. What about the guy who's job it was to stop him from scoring who prays to the same? Did god make a choice, or is the guy celebrating being selfish? The way folks dance around these inconsistencies has always been amusing to me.
kag
(4,075 posts)compared to some of the more testy ones, but frankly I think the OP's messaging is perfectly fitting.
Of course the very old trope about there being "no atheists in foxholes" is untrue, and it is for precisely that reason that it works so well in this case--because the only people for whom that saying, or the new one proposed by the OP about socialists and disasters, is true are those with no ethical or moral conviction like Ted Cruz.
That said, I do understand your complaint, I just don't agree with it. And I believe we can still be friends.
Towlie
(5,305 posts)I just made the same mistake myself on another forum under another alias. I presented an argument that something was bad and then unwisely added that it was sort of like something else that was bad. The discussion got badly sidetracked by people who complained that the other thing wasn't bad.
But I agree with your point, which in essence is that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, should be expected to care about the people.
louis c
(8,652 posts)Excuse me if I don't take your advice.
Looks like it got somebody's attention and they agreed.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)itself that is being recommended but the content of the thread.
Sorry.
louis c
(8,652 posts)I never Rec an OP I don't agree with 100%.
That's my opinion.
by the way, the recs are up to 93.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Isn't this Trump's position?
louis c
(8,652 posts)If my position was Trump's position, I'm sure this OP would have been locked.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Because its all getting heated and I don't think you wanted to provoke any kind of negative reaction like this. Despite being someone whose very far from being a 'snowflake' though, I must admit it did piss me off.
I can understand you not thinking its a big deal (and it probably isn't) but when quite a few people get annoyed by it, just telling them 'well it got lots of recs' is a bit of an offhand way to brush them off.
Mariana
(14,830 posts)But, louis c has been here a long time. Anyone who's been on the DU for that long almost certainly knows the following:
1: The saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a lie, and
2. That saying annoys some DUers, precisely because it's a lie. In some cases, it's a lie about them or their loved ones.
Even if he didn't know it before, he surely knows it now. Most of the requests to remove the lie in the OP have been polite. Many of the posters responding to those polite requests have engaged in ridicule and namecalling. Louis c sees this perfectly well, and has decided to leave the lie in place.
louis c
(8,652 posts)Come on
If an atheist sneezes and I say God Bless You, should the sneezer take it as an insult?
If we act like this about a statement like that, how in the hell are we going to hold our own in debates against hard line right wingers? We'll look like fools.
As a matter of fact, I had no idea that phrase would offend anyone. The intent is to use it in a debate against the other side. I have been here a long time, since 2004. I contribute financially (albeit, a small donation) to this site and read it every day.
If the offended parties to "there are no atheists in fox holes" are that sensitive, I sure wouldn't want them out there with me while I'm debating hard liners.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)Consider an edit.
VOX
(22,976 posts)He set up that shopworn expression to knock it down with some truth.
I'm an atheist, and I'm not offended in the least
You got my point.
I'd say God Bless You, but I'm an Atheist, too
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)He was not knocking down the stupid bigoted and false "no atheists in foxholes" aphorism, he was making an analogy to it with his second aphorism "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".
Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".
If the op was "knocking down" the first then the op was also falsifying the second. In that case the op would make no sense at all, as he goes on to say:
All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.
All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.
How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.
What's the matter, too liberal for ya?
So no, your splain is nonsense.
louis c
(8,652 posts)I guess somebody understood, even if you didn't.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.
But I'm also sure that there are very few Right Wing Atheists. So, the subject line is a suggestion of how to get our opponents attention to drive home a point.
Now, I certainly didn't explain it in the OP. At least 100 DUers understood my point and a few didn't.
Are the critics here offended if a co-worker says "God Bless You" when you sneeze? Or leave out "under God" in the pledge of allegiance? or refuse to sing God Bless America at a left wing event, such as a union or a Dem Convention? or refuse to attend a church wedding for a sibling or a church funeral for a parent?
Come on, get with it. Don't make the Perfect the enemy of the Good.
Voltaire2
(12,511 posts)195. I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes
just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.
An atheist in a foxhole would be equivalent to people in a disaster area who still want small government.
Have I misrepresented your position?
If not are you being intentionally insulting to atheists or are you completely oblivious to the implications of what you wrote?
louis c
(8,652 posts)You conveniently leave out the fact that the subject line is to be used against right wingers, because it strikes to the heart of their beliefs.
Again, I am an Atheist.
145 recs. Over 200 replies.
It seems as though a tremendous number of DUers get the point, even if you don't.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)flattering yourself it seems. If all you have are replies and recs to bolster your point you must be feeling under some pressure to prove it. You should. Considerably more than half the replies are negative toward your position either in part or completely dismissing it. Many of the recs are DUrs that like to push against atheists whenever they get the chance. Many others are rec'ing because they are supporting Warren's argument since it's a worthy and necessary position to argue.
As far as claiming to be atheist, just the fact that you keep repeating, "I am an Atheist" shows you don't really know what atheist means, you don't have a reasonable grasp of the language, or you're not atheist at all. When you say, "I am an Atheist" you are saying you belong to some organized religion, church, sect, or a named group.. Do you? Maybe, The Church of Atheism or the like? You either do or you don't know what you're talking about. If you're trying to say that you don't believe in a deity then you should be saying, "I am atheist". No capital A, no an, just I am non-theist... atheist.
But go ahead, flatter yourself if it makes you feel better. Or maybe try some of that "always doing good for people" stuff that you tout but so far show no sign of actually being able to do.
Don't be hard on yourself though... I also rec'd your OP.
louis c
(8,652 posts)And a rec doesn't need to reply.
It's a matter of opinion on whether or not you should feel offended. The fact that someone is offended is not in question. I can't help how someone "feels".
That certainly was not my intention. But if we are going to stand up to the real political enemies that threaten this country, we better have thicker skin than has been displayed here by some DUers.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)It did turn out to be a hell of a thread! Although I do think the message you meant to make got lost in a flurry of resonance for whatever reason.
If you were to take another stab at making your point, would you do it differently? I don't mean change your present post or go back in time, I just mean would you do it again a different way? Just curious, I'm not saving any cards.
Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 10:27 AM - Edit history (1)
I really don't think the fox hole thing should be offensive. I'm an Atheist, but by no means do I lead that into any political discussion.
Atheism, to me, is basically no religion. If someone, in a personal conversation, says, "what religion are you?", I don't say "Atheist". I reply "I'm not religious", and leave it at that.
I try to convert people to join unions, vote Democratic, or stand up for Liberal ideals.
Wearing Atheism on your sleeve will shut you out of the other discussions in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.
It would be different if I wanted to convert my fellow man to Atheism, but it's just a belief (or non-belief system) to me. I don't care if I'm the only Atheist in the world, or everyone is. Politics and Unionism are my passion. Those are the converts I want to make. Maybe I thought that all Atheists felt that way. I have never met anyone who tried to convert people to Atheism.
But, to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have made my point differently. As a matter of fact, I came up with this phrase and was using it for 3 days and everyone I know got a kick out of it, understood the point, and was using it with Trumpsters they knew.
It seemed so effective, that I thought I'd share it here.
raccoon
(31,083 posts)KG
(28,748 posts)rec'd too
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #171)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #235)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #243)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Back on "DU Front Page Greatest Threads!"
"Reading the OP" triumphs again!
LakeArenal
(28,673 posts)rather than Repunks being hypocrites is stealing this thread and changing the focus of the main point.
If you want to have a convo about tired trite clichés please start your own thread.
This is supposed to be a discussion about what Government should be doing for the people in the US...
LostOne4Ever
(9,262 posts)If a racist phrase had been used to prop up this failed analogy (say insulting the Tuskegee airmen) this post would have gotten hidden.
If you don't like the direction this thread turned, convince the OP to remove the part about atheists or create a new thread and don't use a bigoted cliche.
LakeArenal
(28,673 posts)Co-opt away judgy judgertons....
lunatica
(53,410 posts)If people would stop being deeply offended all the time about minutae maybe your suggestion might work. And I'm an atheist! I'm just not a kneejerk reactionary one in a constant defensive grouch.
ariadne0614
(1,679 posts). . .we're all sharing a foxhole these days, thanks to Trump & Company. After reading the entire thread and seeing valid, well-meaning arguments on both sides, I do have some concerns about our chances for survival. Also, as a radicalized feminist, I hope that if I ever dig in my heels and object to the casual sexism that appears on DU here and there, I will take the lessons of this thread into battle.
orleans
(33,949 posts)"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".
I GOT YOUR POINT.
(i can't believe this thread)
"All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states."
"All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves. "
(maybe let's try this again and simplify it)
Progressive dog
(6,854 posts)foxholes don't turn atheists into believers and government aid for disasters doesn't require a belief that government should own the means of production.
TrogL
(32,818 posts)During an actual (ok, fake) attack the conversation tended towards coprofelia and coitus as in...
"Shit, shit, shit, shit oh fuck me where's my helmet."
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)I have heard that saying. I'm an atheist, but your thread does not offend me since I understood the point you made. 136 recs and counting. I'm amazed at all of the complaining in this thread. Someone even tried to get this topic removed?
JHan
(10,173 posts)Renew Deal
(81,774 posts)That's a pillar of conservative ideology. Me me me
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)An excellent free online book by anarchist-communist, Peter Kropotkin, is Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution.
Wikipedia:
Iggo
(47,470 posts)keithbvadu2
(36,305 posts)As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out.
They want others to stand on their own two feet, pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Response to louis c (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)but I'll do it my way.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)I don't believe it.
louis c
(8,652 posts)you think Hillary and Trump voted for themselves?