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Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:39 PM

 

Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that...

"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".

All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.

All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.

What's the matter, too liberal for ya?

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Reply Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that... (Original post)
louis c Sep 2017 OP
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #1
louis c Sep 2017 #4
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #6
louis c Sep 2017 #15
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #17
mythology Sep 2017 #73
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #74
Ninsianna Sep 2017 #160
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Behind the Aegis Sep 2017 #239
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beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #244
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2017 #227
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #230
Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2017 #254
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Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2017 #224
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louis c Sep 2017 #249
Orrex Sep 2017 #263
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tymorial Sep 2017 #29
Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #128
George II Sep 2017 #220
tymorial Sep 2017 #252
Chemisse Sep 2017 #253
Towlie Sep 2017 #36
kacekwl Sep 2017 #89
louis c Sep 2017 #114
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Crash2Parties Sep 2017 #144
smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #148
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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:43 PM

1. No Atheists in a foxhole is not just false, it's a bigoted trope. Please don't use it to make points

Basically, what it's saying is "your convictions are flimsy and will go out the window at the first sign of crisis"

It's offensive to the memory of actual Atheists who have been in actual foxholes, like Pat Tillman.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:49 PM

4. because I use the phrase, doesn't mean I agree with it

 

I am an Secular Humanist.

I am sure when I face death that I will remain as such.

It's just a well known phrase and it makes the point that people can have flimsy beliefs.

If Ted Cruz knew he was a Socialist when he wants $160 Billion in relief for his constituents, he would deny it.

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Response to louis c (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:54 PM

6. So would "There are no Jews in Foxholes" be okay? Because everyone needs Jesus, or something?

I think using a bigoted trope detracts from your point. I'd change the OP. I think it's perfectly possible to make valid points about the hypocrisy of "small government" conservatives suddenly discovering the wisdom of disaster relief funding. Hell, Ayn Rand was on public assistance at the end of her life.

But using that tired and flatly false aphorism to make that point is offensive. Sorry, it just is.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:04 PM

15. I think you bring your argument to an exteme

 

Last edited Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

since the phrase means that everyone prays as they face death. The type of prayer is not the point of the phrase.

It's a well worn phrase. I don't believe in it, I am a Secular Humanist, which is just a fancy way of saying Atheist. I still say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I still enter a church or synagogue for weddings a funerals. I still respect others' beliefs and don't ever try to change them.

If someone used this phrase in front of me, I would not correct them. On the other hand, if they say they voted for Trump, we would then have an argument.

I don't mind standing up for what I believe in, but I'm not going to fight every battle every day.

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Response to louis c (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:12 PM

17. it's an offensive trope predicated on bs. Even in this thread you have people defending the premise

that, yes, with just enough suffering your rationality will go out the window and you will accept the inherent wisdom that there is a magic man in the sky with omnipotent powers. It doesn't matter what the magic man wants, or how he got there, or what logical premise his existence is predicated on, only that YOU BELIEVE IN HIM, because he really cares about that and that alone.

It's the kind of thing very popular at 12 step meetings.

Never mind all the brave Atheists who have served- and died for- this country, like Pat Tillman, with no evidence that they had deathbed conversions. Nevermind Atheists like Christopher Hitchens who knew fully well they were terminally ill and didn't go to the grave falling all over themselves apologizing and begging mythical figures for forgiveness.

Look at all the awful shit that happens in the world, and we're supposed to believe a "loving God" is responsible for all of it? You want a bumpersticker? How about "there are No Theists in the Children's Cancer Ward?"

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:53 PM

73. With enough your rationality absolutely will go out the window

 

It's why torture doesn't work for example.

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Response to mythology (Reply #73)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:54 PM

74. And maybe with enough believers will stop believing.

But given that we have had actual Atheists like Pat Tillman who have served this country in actual Foxholes with distinction, I think it's time to put this particular saying to bed.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #74)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:36 AM

160. Or you could just accept that in the modern world, phrases mean things, and learn to

accept them, that is the advice that someone gave when it came to actual offensive crap about things that hurt the sentiments of a much larger group of people who were also in foxholes serving bravely and fighting for good against Nazis.


Lots of offensive things that should be put to bed, in the modern world, amirite?

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #160)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:01 AM

163. I'm not sure what specific conversation you're referring to, but if I had to guess

It sounds like maybe it was more of a 1st Amendment question.

Not really relevant. Im not even suggesting the OP shouldnt be allowed to post that silly aphorism here.

Im just commenting on the thing. You can agree, or not. Thats how this works.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #239)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:27 PM

240. Ahhh. Well, in that case, her point makes even less sense.

What a strange parallel to attempt to draw. Yes, things mean what they mean. I think the trope in the OP (if, indeed, it even can be called a "trope". I'm calling it a trope.) is mildly offensive... or at least I felt the memory of Pat Tillman; whose, again, family actually went through a great deal of public head-butting with the Military and the Bush administration OVER Pat's Atheism, deserved someone pointing out the tonedeaf, not to mention false, aspects of that saying.

But it's not "swastika on a t-shirt" offensive.

Beyond that, (not speaking to you, BtA) any argument in that prior thread that the t-shirt designers in question were really trying to "reclaim the ancient svastika" or whatever was belied by the fact that they really WERE right-wing Nazi, or at least 4chan type, trolls.

None of that is really terribly applicable to this conversation, though, as far as I can tell.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #239)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:43 PM

244. Wow.

Glad to see that got some much deserved pushback.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #163)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 01:52 PM

261. No, it was your response, a rather jingoistic, egostistical western one

when people's beliefs were actually attacked.

It's pretty relevant when it seems that when you have decided to take a common phrase as an attack against yourself, that's somehow not okay. Modern Western culture isn't attacking atheists or you personally with this phrase, they have robbed you of nothing, they have launched an attack.

I get it though, double standards, when brown people are being violated and it's real damage, it's okay, but when others have decided to make something out of nothing, that's fine as long as it affects oneself.

There was no thing, but the commentary and the double standards are amusing.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #74)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 06:13 AM

161. Agreed.

When members of a minority group object to a bigoted trope why not just stop using it? It costs me nothing to be careful about the words I use.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #74)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:41 PM

227. How do you KNOW

Pat Tillman didn't say something before he died? Just askin'...........

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #227)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:48 PM

230. I don't. But I know his brother made a point about his Atheism at his funeral.

It was enough of an issue, and important enough, to his family to make a big deal out of it.



So perhaps a bit of respect is due to the man and his professed beliefs, or lack thereof.



We know impending Death didn't cause Christopher Hitchens to convert.

Honestly, it's one point, it's valid, a lot of folks agreed with my objection, but if people want to use the phrase, I can't stop them. Obviously someone fired up the bat-signal around this thread, to which I say great. I've made my point.

If the incisive wisdom contained in the OP simply can't be made without the use of the hokey aphorism about Atheists in Foxholes (which, we're assured, doesn't actually mean anyone thinks Atheists like Pat Tillman are converting on their deathbeds) then so be it. I've said what I need to say.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #230)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:08 PM

254. I understand though it's a big task if you wish the

language to be cleaned up of all such idioms ( I think that's what they are called). For example, the 'rule of thumb' phrase needs to be weeded out.......

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #254)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:31 PM

255. I dont wish for anything.

But i think you're ignoring my point about the Tillman family and respect.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:06 PM

224. By your own argument, isn't saying "Magic Man in the sky" offensive?

To be clear, I don't think it is, but the construct of your argument logically implies it is offensive.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:17 PM

264. We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to.

I especially enjoyed how you rail against offensive phrases while using the "magic man" trope in as offensive a manner as you can get away with.

We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to. It's human nature...

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Response to louis c (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:25 PM

44. I agree with you. This is a very old statement and your use to make a point is warranted.

The hypocrisy of Republicans who claim to hate government are pretty quick suckling at the government teat .
I hole referring to the government relief programs as a teat doesn't offend someone!

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Response to rustydog (Reply #44)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:29 PM

49. No, referring to Atheism as a belief system that gets chucked when one is facing death

(something we all face, sooner or later, no?) ... that is what is offensive.

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Response to rustydog (Reply #44)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:36 PM

63. Exactly. I agree, and it is a great way to make these "no federal help" creeps lose credibility and

help some of the folks who don't necessarily understand why federal assistance is a must in cases like Harvey or Katrina or Sandy.

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Response to rustydog (Reply #44)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:30 AM

178. Thank you for getting back to the point, the hypocrisy of Cruz and the Texas repugs

Someone ought to create another thread for back and forth that's hijacking this one.

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Response to louis c (Reply #15)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:03 PM

223. Exactly this.

I don't know how many safe places we have to create before we can even advance an argument. Now we're talking about a red herring instead of discussing your original point. It's a pity because the Left has great arguments, but the constant infighting is tiresome. I wonder if some of it it's by design.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:59 PM

222. To be fair, it's a turn of phrase that drives his point.

Regardless of whether we like the phrase or not.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #222)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:50 PM

249. Holy shit, someone who gets it

 

thanks.

Oh, can I use "Holy Shit" without offending anyone here?

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Response to louis c (Reply #249)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:14 PM

263. Don't kid yourself--everyone gets it

Your point was not especially sophisticated or hard to understand.

However, a number of people have taken issue with your poor wording and your refusal to recognize it.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #222)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:12 PM

262. Can we agree at least that it was poorly worded?

Specifically it was worded in such a way that clearly indicates that the OP holds the phrase to be true?

The key part is "just as," meaning that the truth of one subsequent phrase is "just as" true as the other subsequent phrase. That is, if we accept as true the repeatedly (and currently) demonstrated phenomenon of even the most spirited Libertarians grateful to accept the help of the socialist government, then we should equally accept that there are no atheists in foxholes.

On the other hand, we could conclude that--since there are atheists in foxholes--then not everyone is a socialist during a natural disaster.

From a rhetorical standpoint, the comparison falters.

A more accurate way to word the OP is this:
"Although it's not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, it is absolutely true that Capitalists welcome Socialist aid in times of disaster." Phrased that way--which we can infer was the OP's actual intent--it's clear that the comparison doesn't quite work as constructed.

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Response to louis c (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:58 PM

29. It's still insensitive.

Your choice of expression is at question not the message. The intent of your post may be well-meaning but the subject matter is bigoted.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #29)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:22 PM

128. Not just insensitive, but flat wrong. nt

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Response to tymorial (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:53 PM

220. Charles Rangel used that expression many times. I guess it goes back to a time....

....when he was thrown into a ditch by an explosion in Korea. He wrote that the blast "caused him to pray fervently to Jesus".

I've heard and/or used that expression dozens and dozens of times over the years, I've never heard any objections to it.

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Response to George II (Reply #220)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:57 PM

252. There are numerous examples of language which was once socially

Acceptable but is now recognized as being insensitive. The mere fact that statements, idioms, tropes and terminology were once used without objection does not equate to being inoffensive and/or insensitive.

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Response to George II (Reply #220)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 06:09 PM

253. For the record, I don't like it.

I've never complained about it and don't ask that it be banned on DU.

But it is insulting. It's a smug assertion that when push comes to shove, all atheists will 'come to Jesus.'

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Response to louis c (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:13 PM

36. Warren is right. When you say "Just as X is true..." you're saying that X is true.

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Response to louis c (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:24 PM

89. I got your point Louis without reading too much

into it. Good point.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #89)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:00 PM

114. Holy Cow

 

I just thought it was a clever phrase to use as an analogy, especially to my RW religious friends who voted for Trump and want smaller government. It seemed like a point they could understand and be left without a response.

I certainly didn't expect this reaction from some of our DUers. I'm an Atheist. I have read the Bible numerous times for its historical content and to argue points of hypocrisy with right wingers.

This phrase never hit me as bigoted, any more than "Voodoo Economics" or "Witch Hunt" is a bigoted statement.

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Response to louis c (Reply #114)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:24 PM

129. I'm also an atheist.

And I respectfully suggest you might consider giving it some thought.

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Response to louis c (Reply #114)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:16 AM

144. Just to point out, the full definition of "bigot"

is,

"a superstitious religious hypocrite"

Witch Hunts were the Church hunting down mostly women in local positions of power during the 1480's to 1600. The trials were usually quite superstitious and were used to eliminate the last traces of matriarchal / matrilineal societies in much of Europe as they were a threat to the Church & it's partners.

Voodoo Economics used the word "Voodoo" in a similar way, which historically established that non-christian beliefs, cultures and religions as "false", "ignorant" and "primative".

So, considering the etymology of the words, ...yeah. They don't *seem* bigoted...to people in a white, male, christian dominated society.

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Response to louis c (Reply #114)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:36 AM

148. I'm an athiest and I am not offended. I understand the point you were trying

to make and didn't read too much into it. Jeez, a lot of touchy people here. I can't believe how many people took offense to this.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #148)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:06 PM

204. It's a great thing that liberals are highly intelligent and not authoritarians

But it also leads to bickering over arcane, academic minutiae. Makes it hard to present a unified force against the jackboots.

I'm a Buddhist, which is inherently atheist (though some schools worship shakyamuni as if he were a deity, against his teachings. But I digress, in an arcane and academic fashion.). So I'm always having to mentally parse common wisdoms of a Judeo/Christian culture.

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Response to louis c (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:44 AM

179. If you don't believe the phrase, then the "just as" doesn't work.

The "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster" then becomes a logically false assertion too.

Perhaps a better title would be "You can be an atheist in a fox hole, but it turns out that being a Socialist during a natural disaster is mandatory." or some such.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #179)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:10 PM

236. It's meant to be used against our opponents

 

The last line is the give away.

"Not too Liberal for Ya"

Certainly that's meant for Freepers and to be used by DUers against our opponents.

A vast majority of DUers got that, hence the 155 recs.

Some didn't.

I'm sorry for that, but I'm not in the habit of trying to please everyone I meet. Not even here.

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Response to louis c (Reply #236)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:16 PM

238. Even against our political opponents it's fundamentally flawed.

Additionally, if 155 of DUers is a "vast majority" this site has really taken a membership hit.

You're 0-2 on logic points at the moment--the difference though is the second one wasn't an offensive falsehood like the first.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #238)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:33 PM

241. 5 Stars in the greatest page

 

you are not going to say that anybody who didn't read it agrees with you?

There was only one more popular OP in the time frame.

And, it was alerted and had a jury that found in my favor, which is a random sampling of DUers

I contend that logic dictates that you're 0 for 2!

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Response to louis c (Reply #241)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:56 PM

251. Moving the goalposts doesn't change the worthiness of the criticisms

I'm happy for you that you made a popular post. Popularity does not equal validity nor does it elevate your arguments to sound logic.

Congratulations on your recs. Please try to do better content-wise in the future. Who knows, you might even get more.

TTFN

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Response to louis c (Reply #241)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:32 PM

265. It's not a pissing contest, at least not until you turned it into one.

And even if you get a million recs, you still worded your OP poorly.

You are singing your own praises as though you are waving an electoral map, and it doesn't help your credibility.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #265)

Wed Sep 6, 2017, 11:25 AM

269. I joined this site because it is called Democratic Underground

 

Whatever advances the cause of Democrats is the mission I signed on to.

I'm a Democrat and an Atheist, but I didn't join Atheist Underground.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:50 PM

5. Thank you.

My husband is an atheist and he served for over 20 years - in and out of foxholes.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM

12. Agreed, the FFRF even dedicated a monument to atheist vets:

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:24 PM

43. Thank you. nt

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM

48. AW man? Give it a rest?

I'm an atheist.
Never been in a foxhole.
But I've been up on a night refueling mission in thunderstorms in an F-84 that was getting beat about at 25,000' and still managed to hook up with a KC-135 in spite of my lack of religious beliefs.

Give it a rest and try to be not so easily offended.
Thank you.

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Response to trof (Reply #48)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:32 PM

55. One thing I am not, is easily offended.

But I'm tired of these bullshit sayings against Atheists being okay when there's no way they would fly against other belief systems.

You want to tell Jews that they'll "see the light" and convert to Jesus before they die? Why would they be so sensitive as to find such harmless banter offensive?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #55)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:35 PM

60. Bingo. nt

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #55)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:53 PM

72. So you're pissed off because someone said 'there are no atheists in foxholes'?

Sorry bub.
I just don't get it.
Good luck with that.

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Response to trof (Reply #72)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:56 PM

76. pissed? No. I'm calling out a tired, false, bigoted trope that would never fly

if it was directed at anyone else.

Not sure why objecting to bigoted statements against a minority is so surprising, on a progressive website.


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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #76)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:12 PM

85. OK, ya got me. I had to look up 'trope'.

A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect[1] such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices,[2] motifs or clichés in creative works.[3][4]

I'm not even sure that 'atheists in foxholes IS a trope, by the above definition.
But OK.


The term trope derives from the Greek τρόπος (tropos), "turn, direction, way", derived from the verb τρέπειν (trepein), "to turn, to direct, to alter, to change".[3] Tropes and their classification were an important field in classical rhetoric. The study of tropes has been taken up again in modern criticism, especially in deconstruction.[5] Tropological criticism (not to be confused with tropological reading, a type of biblical exegesis) is the historical study of tropes, which aims to "define the dominant tropes of an epoch" and to "find those tropes in literary and non-literary texts", an interdisciplinary investigation of which Michel Foucault was an "important exemplar".[5]

WHEW

Examples[edit]
Rhetoricians have closely analyzed the great variety of "twists and turns" used in poetry and literature and have provided an extensive list of precise labels for these poetic devices. Examples include:
hyperbole
irony
litotes
metaphor
metonymy
oxymoron
synecdoche
For a longer list, see Figure of speech: Tropes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)

I won't make a judgement call but it is still MHO that you're pissed about SOMETHING.
Anyway, good luck with whatever it is that put a burr under your saddle.

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Response to trof (Reply #85)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:32 PM

94. Here's another trope: people who object to bigoted

statements should "chill out", are unacceptably angry, or "have a burr in their saddle".

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Response to trof (Reply #72)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:36 PM

97. I'm pissed.

It's patently false.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #97)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:26 PM

130. False. Demonstrably false.

That's the issue. Period.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #55)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:32 AM

170. Reminder to players in the 'Take a shot every time an atheist is offended' DU drinking game.

"Please get a designated driver. And stay hydrated."

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:39 PM

66. Silly arguments and objections ...

like the ones below are a major reason the fascists are IN and we are OUT. I know many, many atheists, and I can only think of one who would be offended, and she is offended by everything.

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Response to CCExile (Reply #66)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:42 PM

67. Yes, Atheists should just shut up.

And clearly minorities objecting to bigotry is a major factor in the rise of Trump.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #67)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:38 PM

99. And it appears we're to blame for Trump too.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #67)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:50 PM

232. Liberals arguing inanities certainly aided in the rise of Trump. Liberal "purity tests" ...

Keep our vote counts small.

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Response to CCExile (Reply #66)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:56 PM

77. There ya go.

I'll even go this far...
If you're an atheist you're probably fairly thick skinned.

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Response to trof (Reply #77)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:17 PM

121. or should be

 

I'm the OP, I'm an Atheist and there was no harm intended. It's an old saying that people on the religious right can understand, therefore, the analogy would expose their hypocrisy for smaller government.

I'm a Socialist first, and an Atheist second.

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Response to louis c (Reply #121)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:21 PM

122. The religious right believe that saying! Why pander

to them at others expense?

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Response to CCExile (Reply #66)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:27 PM

131. Anecdotal. Point is, the statement is FALSE. nt

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Response to Susan Calvin (Reply #131)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:13 PM

218. The statement is not false to those we're trying to convince.

 

It strikes to their belief system.

I am heartened that 146 recs, which puts this OP on the 5 star greatest page, proves to me that a vast majority of my DUers understand my subtlety.

The fact that this post was alerted and found without fault by a randomly chosen jury of objective DUers seems to prove my point.

Another old story: "A woman was watching her son in a military parade. He was obviously marching counter to his fellow soldiers. She said to her companion, 'look, look, everyone's out of step but my son.'"

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Response to louis c (Reply #218)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:45 PM

229. So, the OP would have been very easy to "fix"

With a simple "a lot of people believe that".....

Very easy way to turn a false statement into a true one.

With respect to your quoting the number of recs (yet again) -

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."

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Response to Susan Calvin (Reply #229)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:02 PM

234. Here, we have an OP saying the same thing..............

 

....without my lead in about fox holes.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029552428

As you notice, it has 2 recs, over 150 less than my OP and well over 200 fewer replies. It has twice as many views as any post (other than Skinner's instructions) as any other post in the past 36 hours.

Of the 2 recs in the other post, one is mine and of the 7 replies, one is mine.

The last line is the give away "What's the matter, too liberal for 'ya?" That line has to be meant for Right Wingers. Certainly it's not meant for DUers.

The most important thing in making a point as that people read it.

By the way, about the recs. These are DU recs and we can assume that each one is as Liberal as either of us.

It's not like people from Free Republic are agreeing with me. They're DUers!

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Response to louis c (Reply #234)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:54 PM

256. Good grief.

I just realized your last post directed to me on this subthread was in response to a post of mine that wasn't even a reply to you. So one can only assume you're monitoring the whole shebang and playing whack-a-mole, still. Sheesh.

Your goal seems to be to get everyone to agree with you, and, furthermore, to say they feel the way you want them to feel. Ain't going to happen. Not my problem if you persist in not listening to others and not thinking anyone else may have a point.

And recs are not proof of right, even on a liberal message board.

Now how about giving up on this? You "won."

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Response to Susan Calvin (Reply #256)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 06:33 AM

259. Thanks

 

I never said anyone else didn't have a point. I just disagree.

If I worried about not offending anyone, ever, politics would not be my interest. I'd collect stamps or something.

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Response to louis c (Reply #259)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:46 PM

266. Not sure why you're thanking me.

I put quotes around "won."

Over and out.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:26 PM

90. Indeed.

I hate that phrase. It is theist bigotry.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #90)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:28 PM

132. Yep. nt

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:31 PM

93. Very true

BTW

Just served on a jury -- your response was alerted as a "personal attack" -- LOL.

Of course I chose "intent to disrupt" at the end.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:34 PM

96. Thank you. n/t

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:32 AM

145. Apparently someone alerted on this post I'm replying to

That pretty much proves the point I was making far better than anything else I could say, here.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #145)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:58 AM

155. You are kidding.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #155)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:18 AM

156. Noooope.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:42 PM

201. Agreed. Plenty of Atheists in Fox holes but

 

they get blown to bits like everyone else. Desperate people will grasp at anything that might save them. What the phrase assumes is bogus as if when a person becomes desperate enough he will come to his senses. It's like saying you can believe in any religion you want as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, lol. Now back to those who are trying to create such fox holes.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:09 PM

216. Yep.

Not to mention, the ridiculous idea that in cases where it has occurred, the questioning or even reversal of belief in some extreme, terrifying moment serves as solid proof of some greater truth. Especially as related to those from societies where they've been exposed to pro-religious propaganda all their lives.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:42 PM

228. Come on Warren.

The phrase was put in quotes. You not only understand the opening post, but you agree with the principle. You don't have to whip things up. We have real and malicious enemies.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:44 PM

2. Yep! A national emergency is NO time to be a bean counter.

You get people the help they need WHEN they need it. You tend to THEIR needs immediately. Plenty of time later to quibble about how much it costs, when the emergency has passed or abated substantially.

People need the help. And they need it right now. Screw what it costs.

And this is ALSO not the time to be considering any kind of tax cut. You use every tax dollar you can on what people in this magnitude of trouble NEED, right NOW. Frankly, AS a taxpayer, I think that's a tremendously worthy use of my tax dollars.

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Response to calimary (Reply #2)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:46 PM

3. Well, the logic for a social safety net applies at all times.

Still it would be nice if this point could be made without using a bigoted anti-Atheist trope to "validate" it.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:56 PM

9. I'm an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac

I lay awake at night and wonder if there really is a dog.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM

11. There are a number of circumstances we find ourselves in...

where we appeal to a 'deus ex machina' to deliver us from; where we even offer to 'make deals' with some Supreme Being if only...

A foxhole can be one of them. Waking up in a jail cell is another.

"Bigoted anti-Atheist trope?"

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:02 PM

14. Yes. Just because something is repeated often and sounds like a cute bumpersticker

doesn't mean it isn't obnoxious and bigoted.



I don't know what "you" do, but don't make assumptions about what "we" do, thanks.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:12 PM

18. This is a reference to an appropriate analogy related to the hypocrisy of conservatism.

Nothing more.

You know what?

I'm glad you're in my Big Tent! The more the merrier!!!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:15 PM

19. No, it's a bigoted trope which for some reason is acceptable about "Atheists" that would never fly

if it were directed at anyone else.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:07 PM

33. I'm an atheist, and a DU member.

Why are you so stubbornly missing the point?
Why are you attacking a fellow member for a peripheral statement that is only incidental to the message?
Or are you just shit-stirring?

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Response to ChazInAz (Reply #33)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:28 PM

91. Same, and agree. nt.

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Response to ChazInAz (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:45 AM

149. +1000

thank you! The statement in question had really nothing to do with the point of the post. It was a trite saying used in a rhetorical way to make another point, which very few people here seem to want to address.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:25 PM

45. I took it the way you took it. Thank you. nt

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:12 AM

175. "Hic"

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:11 PM

16. Yes, bigoted atheist trope. Take it from this vet:

I Was An Atheist In A Foxhole

By Philip K. Paulson

Watching the Vietnam War during the mid-1960s on the nightly news inspired me to perform my patriotic duty and join the U.S.Army. There, I was trained as a light weapons infantryman and a paratrooper. I was ordered to the front lines of battle in South Vietnam in September 1966 and fought until January 1968. I extended my tour of duty for the special privilege of an early honorable discharge.

***

I knew that proclaiming to be an atheist while on duty in South Vietnam could likely prejudice promotions and possibly cause harmful reprisals. An atheist was perceived as tantamount to being a communist. Our army chaplain was a fundamentalist Christian who saw the devil in virtually everything he didn’t believe in. Army chaplains wielded a lot of power; their opinions could make the difference between whether or not you got promoted. So, I was quiet about my nonbelief in God.

I suffered through horrifying moments, expecting to be killed. I was convinced that no cosmic rescuer would same me. Besides, I believed life after death was merely wishful thinking. There were times when I expected to suffer a painful, agonizing death. My frustration and anger at being caught in a dilemma of life- and-death situations simply infuriated me. Hearing the sound of bullets whistling through the air and popping near my ears was damned scary. Fortunately, I was never physically wounded.

One day I heard the chaplain preach that we should be happy and willing to die so that we could be with Jesus. After hearing that, some people praised God. I cursed God. Cursing and swearing were very therapeutic and healthy for me; it gave me the courage of Hercules. It gave me confidence in my ability and skill to stay alive. I was determined to live on this side of the grave. I could not believe that there was a better life than this one, so I rejected the foolish notion that my existence was based upon the extremes of God and the devil, heaven and hell, and life after death.

When facing death, my thought was to stay alive. I was just infuriated by all the people praying and wasting my precious time and theirs. When the chips are down and there’s no one to turn to for help, and you’ve found out that it’s just you who has been helping all along, that’s the big difference. I discovered in combat that there is no one to turn to — it’s just you who has been saving your own ass all along. My answer to death was simply, “Oh well, I’ll be pushing daisies.” If I survived and looked at another person’s death, I’d think it’s not my body that’s being counted.” I was fighting to stay alive — not praying for life after death.

https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/i-was-an-atheist-in-a-foxhole/


It is insulting to tell atheists that they will beg to be saved by a god they don't believe in as soon as their life is in danger.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:24 PM

22. It's a freakin' relatable analogy to the point of the post!

I understand the 'sentiment' of the words.

It's not an indictment of atheists.

Now we crucify fellow Democrats over some freakin' words?

Jeez!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:25 PM

24. I count 5 or 6 people in this thread already who have objected to it.

And there are countless better ways the point could be made.

I think you're defending the indefensible, here.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:58 PM

28. On the Front Page of DU with "recs."

I'd say most people get the analogy and are missing the offense.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:01 PM

31. The "analogy" is predicated upon a fallacious proposition, which you tried to defend upthread.

You're not even arguing the cute utility of the aphorism, you're saying that it's true.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:14 PM

37. It's about hypocrisy and those who practice it.

It's not literal, and the phrase is not being used literally.

This definitely doesn't even nudge my cone of militancy regarding offensive things people may say.

I have a party and a president occupying that space.

How do you feel about our "National Day of Prayer" today for the victims of Harvey declared by our federal Executive Branch?

THIS OP is offensive?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:30 PM

53. I expect that sort of nonsense in leiu of actual helping, from Republicans.

Your post upthread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029549776#post11

11. There are a number of circumstances we find ourselves in...

where we appeal to a 'deus ex machina' to deliver us from; where we even offer to 'make deals' with some Supreme Being if only...

A foxhole can be one of them. Waking up in a jail cell is another.


Who is "we"? Would you include Pat Tillman in the "we" you're generalizing about in your post?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #53)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:46 PM

69. Generalites by definition don't apply to every individual.

That's why they are called 'generalities.'

'Deus ex machina' refers to an ancient Greek artifice in plays where the problems were resolved by the sudden entrance of a god that fixed everything.

A 'Supreme Being' would be that miraculous intercessor who would pop in out of the blue and fix our problems under extreme circumstances.

How is this a bigoted, offensive affront to atheism?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #69)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:52 PM

71. Would you think "There are no Jews on Christmas Morning" might be offensive?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #71)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:30 PM

134. For some, apparently not. Thank you again. nt

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:36 PM

124. Add me to the list.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:38 PM

25. I'm not crucifying anyone, I'm responding to the claim that this isn't a bigoted trope.

The use of that phrase is offensive to atheists and I'm explaining why.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:41 AM

158. Well, that's just the same as crucifying someone.

I too wonder at the use of such violent imagery. The OP has not been called names, or threatened, or insulted in any way. But yallerdawg implies that merely expressing disapproval of the use of that offensive phrase is just like hanging someone on a tree to die slowly and painfully. Nice.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #158)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:46 AM

159. That struck me too.

I haven't seen anyone attack the op, just a bunch of atheists objecting to a bigoted trope. I mean that's not up for debate, it's offensive as hell.

But they did used to say we ate babies, and someone did just call us militant, so maybe virtually crucifying people on the internet is the new version of that?

At least no one has used the e-word yet...

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:38 PM

26. So it would be okay to use a racist trope if it helps an analogy?

This is freaking pathetic that anyone thinks this is okay!!!

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #26)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:54 PM

27. I'm glad you're on our side!

We're Big but need to get Bigger!

So, you keep raisin' a ruckus for what you want to get across!

I may question your opinion, but never your right to say it!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:17 PM

41. You are NOT on my side if you are okay with this

Atheists, like Pat Tillman, have DIED serving their country and this trope insults every single one of them. This is one of the single most insulting tropes that can be used.

If you were on our side this would insult you. By being okay with this you are saying that we matter so little to you that you are willing to allow bigotry against us to advance a minor point.

Seriously, would you be okay if someone made a racist trope against African Americans for this?

THIS IS NOT OKAY!!!

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:31 PM

54. Thank you. nt

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:33 PM

57. That right there!

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:35 PM

61. Pat Tillman. Exactly. Remember how Bush and the GOP tried to whitewash his nonbelief?

It was "inconvenient".

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:22 AM

182. Hey!

Dude- your username and signature meme are extremely hurtful to those of us who are actually lost wanderers.

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Response to Toorich (Reply #182)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:53 PM

207. Common, if you are going to troll at least put some effort into it.

That doesn't even make any ligical sense. 0/10.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:29 PM

51. Yes, those silly minorities, always 'raising a ruckus' about bigotry.

How patronizing. Do you say the same thing to other minorities when they object to bigoted stereotypes?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #51)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:39 PM

100. Hello...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029309554

It is ALWAYS good for minorities to stand up and speak out! There are some things which are patently offensive and others which, well, wear out over time and earn a place in the bigotry heap. I mean, certainly, there are certain types of "rigging" that people would object to no matter what point they were trying to make because it would be easily be understood to be bigoted.

Though I am getting a slight kick out of Warren's defense by using Jews as an example, as if that would not get a pass.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #100)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:46 PM

101. Oh I remember that well.

I made the point downthread that those of us who object to stereotypes are often dismissed as being sensitive snowflakes. LGBT people especially get ignored or told to suck it up. You know, because you don't want to offend anyone by being too noisy.

And yes, anti-Semitism definitely gets a pass. I got into it on Facebook with a few idiots who were offended that the anti-Semitism in Charlottesville was pointed out. You know how that goes, it's futile but somebody has to stand up.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #100)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:13 PM

217. That was particularly odious.

Don't forget that women should support force-birther candidates. Fuck that.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:11 PM

34. " It's not an indictment of atheists. "

Actually, yeah it is.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:14 PM

39. +1

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Response to Iggo (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM

47. Yep.

It's saying I'll pray when I'm dying. What presumption. How would anyone else know, unless they were there at the time, which hasn't happened yet.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:49 PM

110. "It's not an indictment of atheists."

It's an indictment of foxholes.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:15 PM

40. No problem here.

I think one can find offense everywhere if you really want to find it.

Not my idea of happiness.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:29 PM

133. Trouble is, the initial premise is FALSE. nt

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:54 PM

7. These anti-government conservatives are often hypocrites

And always are fine with Socialism if it benefits corporations or the wealthy or them personally.

The no Atheists in foxholes is just incorrect, though

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:54 PM

8. Your 100% right...and on a much smaller scale

Any time we have severe weather here with tree damage the "government isn't the answer,it's the problem" Republican voters here are the FIRST to get limbs stacked out on the curb for local Guberment to pick up so they don't have to pay a dump fee or hire a service.

Yup Guberment SUCKS,right up to the point where "something" affects THEM and THEIRS.

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Response to Bengus81 (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM

13. My DH used to say about Barry Goldwater:

"He was against 'creeping socialism' until it creeped into Arizona".

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM

10. The atheist trope is patently untrue and so is the idea that...

 

government-based emergency relief is Socialism.

So we have a total thread fail.

If one wanted to make the case that many conservatives argue for small government, except when it benefits themselves and are therefore hypocrites, it would be more like it.



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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:15 PM

20. I'm in agreement with you, here.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:21 PM

21. Please change your OP title, it is a hateful, false, and bigoted stereotype. NT

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:42 PM

107. No, I won't

 

Thanks for your advice.

Please don't be offended if I reject it.

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Response to louis c (Reply #107)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:03 PM

115. Why not?

You even admitted that you didn't believe it. Why is it so important to use this particular phrase that even you admit is false when others are telling you it is offensive?

By using it the entire point you were trying to make was sidelined, and it makes it seem as if you could not care less about promoting a meme that denies the very existence of people who risked (and in some cases lost) their very lives serving their country.

Why is this so important that you couldn't use an analogy that doesn't make its point at the expense of one of the most despised minorities in the country?

EDIT: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?

As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #115)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:13 PM

120. The anology is made to convince Right Wingers in a discussion

 

It's analogy our opponents will understand, in their own language.

This OP has received 76 Recs, was on the front page and now stands at the 4 star greatest page.

That was not my intention. I just thought it was just a clever little saying and can be used, as I say, in discussions with Trump voters.

I believe more people understood it than didn't. I'm sure there was an alert sent on this, judging by some of the responses. The fact the OP is still here and was not locked demonstrates a "not guilty" finding.

I hope that you accept my explanation.

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Response to louis c (Reply #120)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:27 PM

123. But this is not a right wing site

It is a liberal site, full of activists and minorities who have suffered because of statements like these.

Does the number of recs make it true or less offensive somehow? That just means the bias is so ingrained that many people will outright ignore it. Even other atheists this is nothing new. Polls show even atheists tend to be less trusting of other atheists. Which makes it even more important to stand up against these type of statements.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/04/16/new-study-shows-that-even-atheists-think-atheists-are-immoral/

As I put as an edit to the post you are replying to: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?

As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?

I am appealing to your understanding and compassion as a liberal, please reconsider and use another analogy!

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #123)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:39 PM

125. Bingo. If a racist trope was used to make a point would it be acceptable?

How about a homophobic stereotype, or a misogynistic one? I don't believe the op was being deliberately offensive but we all should try to avoid using offensive tropes here.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #125)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:12 AM

142. I agree.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #123)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:38 AM

165. My intenntion, in almost all of my posts

 

is to suggest arguments that DUers can use in discussions with those who disagree with us. This has been my purpose, on this site, since I've been here.

A little history. I'm a member since 2004 and have contributed every year for over ten years.

I don't come to this site just to just "preach to the choir" (I hope that phrase doesn't upset you, or force you to call me a "bigot".

I use every day conversations, bring them to this site, and try to give some advice, and take some.

I know we are all of a like mind, relatively speaking. I know we challenge others outside of this site, every day, in their opinions, and we have ours challenged. We can learn from each other here at DU, so when we face similar situations, we can learn from each others experiences.

After all, our mission should be to change minds outside of this site, not stroke each others egos. That's the only way to make change in this country.

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Response to louis c (Reply #165)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:09 AM

168. No worries, FWIW, I get you. A French philosopher once wrote:

"If axes to grind didn't exist, it would become necessary to invent them"

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:47 AM

150. Oh, ffs!

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #150)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:50 AM

152. I know right? It's not hard to change an offense OP! Nt

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #152)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:32 AM

169. Especially when you're wrong (NT)

 

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Response to louis c (Reply #169)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:25 AM

183. wrong about what?

wrong that the "no atheists in foxholes" is offensive to atheists?

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:24 PM

23. So, not at all then.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:00 PM

30. Lots of believers lose their faith in war. I also enjoy the admittance that people require

Near-death experiences in order to adopt a belief system. It's only legitimate when it does something for you, personally. The object of belief is merely a function of our fear of mortality: the object, god, or whatever carries no intrinsic value of it's own in normal circumstances. But then, there never was anything rational about faith, I suppose.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:04 PM

32. Nope. Not too liberal for me at all.



I call it solidarity.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:12 PM

35. See why we can't get anything done? Your point about republican/libertarian hypocrisy...

is lost when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory.

More time spent in outrage over your comment than in outrage over the real problem.

Amazing.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:14 PM

38. Could have been a win if it accused GOPers of making the stmt

Just as Republicans always say "there are no atheists..."

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #38)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:05 PM

82. Yes, he should change the first sentence

"Just as superstitious, science denying Republicans claim..."

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:29 PM

50. The analogy starts with an obvious untruth.

So there's that little issue.....

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Response to Susan Calvin (Reply #50)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:07 PM

116. But it is not stated as truth, merely an allusion leading to the truth.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #116)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:20 PM

127. Oh please give me a ing break. nt

DU ate my euphemism.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:34 PM

59. Because "Atheists in Foxholes" is a crappy analogy to use, here.

No Objectivists in the social security line, maybe.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #59)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:08 PM

117. You're spendin a lot of time battling that analogy. How do you feel about the point of the post?

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #117)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:32 PM

135. I don't appreciate reasoning from a false premise,

Just as a general principle.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #117)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:29 AM

147. it's not a particularly groundbreaking observation to notice that so-called small govt conservatives

suddenly decide they like government spending when it's directed in ways they want. Look at the budget deficit under Reagan, or Dubya.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #117)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:52 AM

180. Logically speaking, there is no point of the post.

It would be like saying If 1 = 0 then then there is global warming.

The statement self-sabotages.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:37 PM

98. Or we could listen and respond to criticism.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #98)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:09 PM

118. We could also avoid being sidelined by irrelevant criticism.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:59 PM

103. Exactly

Im so tired of constant outrage that gets in the way of discussing something.

Yes that phrase isnt true but the use of it helped make a point. I doubt the OP meant it as an insult.

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Response to nini (Reply #103)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:53 AM

153. Thank you!

This is the shit that keeps us from getting anywhere. I am so tired of the perpetually outraged dragging us down and distracting us from the real problems we are facing.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #153)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:24 AM

194. It boggles the mind really

How something like the OP turns into a multi sub thread piss fest.

Any valid point gets lost in the hysteria.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:52 PM

111. "when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory."

How dare people point out offencive statements!

More time is spent defending offence than listening to to those who are hurt.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #111)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:13 PM

119. Offensive? And you wonder why people call liberals "snowflakes"? A lot more time here was spent...

crying about the "offensive comment" than about the point of the comment.



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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #119)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:35 PM

136. Well, if a comment starts from offensive, not to mention untrue,

I reserve the right to argue with the rest of it. Just how much am I expected to ignore?

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Response to Susan Calvin (Reply #136)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:41 PM

138. Everything

Apparently the term "triggered" is a right wing word that somehow magically makes bigoted words and phrases okay and allows one to say whatever hateful thought that pops into their mind without criticism or consequence.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #138)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:47 PM

139. Thanks. That was my interpretation of some of the comments. nt

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #119)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:40 PM

137. Yep

Tin ear playing out right here on this thread. Derp

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #119)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:14 AM

143. You're the one calling liberals names

Why is that?

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:35 PM

210. This...

...by an Atheist ex-serviceman.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:23 PM

42. Very True.

Ted Cruz position on Sandy aid vs Harvey aid is a perfect example of this. I was glad to see the media call him out on it.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM

46. Actually, there are nothing but atheists in foxholes.

If there were any true believers, they'd believe their god would keep them safe, even if they decided to get out of the foxhole and walk straight into enemy fire.

The fact that they don't believe a god will keep them safe shows they don't believe in god.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #46)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:35 PM

62. BAM! Hell yeah!

If you're a TRUE BELIEVER why you'll just stand right up and walk into that machine gun nest KNOWING THAT

1. Because you are protected by your god you'll be unharmed, or...

2. If your god SHOULD decide that He wants to call you home you'll go directly to heaven and a paradise beyond your wildest dreams.

Win-Win, either way.
Where's the flaw in my reasoning?

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Response to stopbush (Reply #46)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:47 PM

109. I'm not sure who told you a belief in God grants physical invulnerability...

 

Pretty stupid premise. Then again, so was the OP.

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Response to linuxman (Reply #109)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:18 AM

191. Isaiah 54:17

“No weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
and this is their vindication from me,”
declares the Lord.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #191)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:22 AM

193. The day I meet actually meet an old testament adhering literalist, I'll let them know they can cross

 

the street without looking both directions.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #46)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:56 PM

113. Kurt Vonnegut (another atheist in a foxhole) wrote in Hocus Pocus

"The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, "There's a Chaplain who never visited the front.""

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:30 PM

52. Aphorism.

"A pithy observation that contains a general truth, such as, “If it ain't broke, don't fix it.”

Another example: "There are no atheists in a fox hole."

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:33 PM

56. Foxholes exist. So do jail cells.

Apparently if "it" gets bad enough, we're all gonna start going to church.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:33 PM

58. Well, the aphorism in contention does not in fact state a general truth.

So there's that.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:56 PM

112. You seem really upset

when people are pointing out how offencive the OP is.


If you wanted to help the situation you could listen instead of silencing.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:21 AM

181. That's bullshit.

"There are no atheists in foxholes" means "There are no atheists, because when the shit hits the fan, everyone's a believer ."

Stop digging.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #181)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:26 AM

184. "A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse."

Now where are the PETA people?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #184)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:49 PM

202. Okay, that's enough.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:37 PM

64. The p.c. here kills me

I doubt many of you would make it through a episode of Tosh.0. As an atheist I find no offense here. It's an old saying and I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks its 100% true. Sometimes when you're offended you should just change the channel. Gotta pick your battles when you live in a country of free speech

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Response to askyagerz (Reply #64)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:58 PM

80. Careful.

I tried making the same point, and I'm getting hammered by the p.c. snowflakes too.

Good luck.

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Response to kag (Reply #80)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:20 PM

88. Haha no worries I'm good at dodging rocks

P.C. police definitely hurt the progressive cause more then they help. We are all adults here. We don't need our wrists slapped. We know exactly what we are saying...
If you can't laugh at how silly the human race is sometimes then what's the point?

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Response to askyagerz (Reply #64)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:56 AM

154. +1000

I can't remember the last time I have seen such hypersensitive ridiculousness on this board. And I'm an Athiest.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #154)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:06 PM

198. Stuff like this is why Dems don't rule the world

If the average independent voter was to read these responses they would just roll their eyes. Like a bunch of little kids bickering back and forth. Being that P.C. is basically no different then telling someone you know better then them and no one wants to hear that shit. Sorry fellow DUers no one has all the answers. Stop trying to censor the words coming out of my mouth

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:39 PM

65. Wow. It's too bad that your excellent point is being lost on people who...

are apparently being triggered because they think you're insulting us atheists. As a committed atheist I find your observation quite insightful.

I watched Ted Cruz attempt some ethical gymnastics to justify his heartless vote against Sandy aide and his desperate appeal for Harvey aide. No matter his religion (or lack thereof) I suspect the only thing Ted Cruz would be praying for in a foxhole is toilet paper.

It's too bad that people can't get over your use of an analogous and common turn of phrase in order to debate the actual intent of your post. I, for one, think it was spot on.

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Response to kag (Reply #65)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:44 PM

68. triggered? Its a shitty analogy- and not true. Like attributing that "Definition of Insanity" quote

to Einstein, when it actually comes from a Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet.

I get it, people love these dopey double-digit IQ sayings, even when they're flat-out false. "You can't drive a car to Denver!" "It only snows on people who ski"

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:17 AM

176. "Hey, Bartender."

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Response to betsuni (Reply #176)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:24 PM

209. Inferring that someone is posting drunk?

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:48 PM

70. What excellent points?

 

The line about atheists is offensive and untrue. And the second part—that government relief efforts are Socialism—isn't true either.

Are so-called small government conservative hypocritical when they hate government expenditures except when they are the beneficiaries? Heck yeah.

But that's got nothing to do with either atheism or socialism.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:55 PM

75. Holy crap--I was wondering what was going on with this thread.

Hilarious.

I will take your point as I believe you intended. It's a good one.

Not sure those comparing atheism to various religions is being philosophically consistent ala "A faith/Not a faith arguments" I see bruited about here and there, but I'll give the benefit of a doubt, as I also don't care.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #75)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:57 PM

79. Do you remember when the Bush administration tried to edit out Pat Tillman's Atheism?

I do.

I'm sure "Atheists in Foxholes" makes a wonderful slogan for a 12 step meeting, but the fact is that there are real Atheists who have served this country with distinction, and they deserve better.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #79)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:06 PM

83. I do and I'm sure his family does as well.

It's not all that surprising, you see the same attitude when people who object to racist, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic stereotypes are dismissed as being hypersensitive, easily 'triggered', etc. See it's the people in those groups who are to blame for all the rancor. If only they would sit down and be quiet.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #83)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:11 PM

84. triggered. Yeah, that's cute.

I got my ass kicked by older boys at the school bus stop when I was 7, because I answered "what religion are you" with "Atheist"-- and then, of course, I had to explain to Chuggo and the gang what that word meant.

Apparently I wasn't "allowed" to not believe. Or so they thought. An ass-kicking didn't cause me to convert.

But "triggered"? No. I'll call out derpitude when I see it, though.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #84)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:16 PM

87. Hey at least we're not the most hated religious minority in America anymore.

According to Pew it's Muslims now, we got bumped down into the #2 spot.

Atheists Open Gap Against Muslims For Title of Most Hated Religious Group in America

WE'RE NUMBER TWO! WE'RE NUMBER TWO!

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #79)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:52 PM

102. You don't think you're over-reacting a teensy little bit?

As well as missing the point of the OP? I mean all this indignation is at the least, interesting, but damn.

And yeah. I got two kids who served;one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq, and a SIL who was in special forces, so I know a little bit about military life. I never got the impression that those in the field give a shit about your religion--or lack of one. I do understand how awkward and frustrating it is for atheists to be surrounded by religion.

Most people I interact with are various shades of agnostic, as am I. The militantly atheist I know personally, are usually damaged in some way, so they end up with these obnoxious personalities kind of like Libertarians or MRA's or the overly-religious.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #102)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:04 PM

104. Food for thought.

You know I have a great deal of respect for you, but I want you to think about something: Would you ever tell a gay person, especially since you are not lesbian or bisexual, we were "over reacting" to something we perceived as an insult? I don't think you would. This is really no different. It isn't a matter of agreeing, but understanding the POV of someone with whom you don't share a status. It wasn't too long ago, that GLBT people here at DU were told to "suck it up", "get over it", "the ends justify the means" when it came to using homophobia against the right, especially the "president". It comes down to a matter of respect. I don't think Warren or others in this thread who are objecting to this phrase (and I add my non-atheist voice to said objections) are over-reacting, they are trying to get people to understand their point of view and they nor their POV should be mocked, derided, or otherwise be dismissed. One doesn't have to agree, nor does it mean the point of the OP is being missed, it simply means we can do better by using phrases which aren't bigoted or simply not true in order to make a point.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #104)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:22 PM

105. I think that's the part that caused me to reply in the first place

I opened the thread trying to figure out what the ruckus was, with all the replies.

Atheism is the lack of religious beliefs. It's not faith based, it's not an opinion, it's a way of thinking, and one I understand very well. I used to be one before theoretical physics for dummies type books were written.

While historically atheists have certainly lost their lives for daring to think, I have a hard time equating it to being Gay in America today, or being, say Muslim.

I find vehement reactions to an old idiom, rather than a reasoned response, although those came later in the thread.

But I do take your point. I find the entire thread progression a bit odd, and probably one I should stay out of, and I may shoot across the bow now and again, I'm not interested in causing actual pain with my words.



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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #105)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:45 PM

108. With a church on every corner here in a red state,

where the "where do you go to church at" is standard in first meeting small talk, i can guarantee that there are people who cannot freely state that they are atheist. Firings can and do occur, especially in "right to work" states.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #105)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:56 PM

141. Appreciate your post, especially the proper usage

of the word atheist... lower case as in "I'm atheist". Being atheist is not an opinion, it's a way of thinking... bravo. I usually say being atheist is not an idea, it's the condition of being non-theist. If you belong to The Church of Atheism you can say "I am an Atheist". Most of us don't go to an Atheist church... so I'm atheist.
I'm off topic but thanks.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #105)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:16 AM

190. Vehement responses? You mean to the OP?

I wish you'd point them out. I see mostly polite requests and explanations. I also see those who objected, no matter how nicely they did it, being ridiculed and called names. There are certainly some "vehement responses" to those posts.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #102)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:48 AM

146. Lol. "Damaged". Heard that line before.

You think we Atheists dont get asked by a thousand not-nearly-as-clever-as-they-imagine-themselves folks "So why are you angry at God"? Heh. Same reason I'm angry at James Bond, Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker.

yeah, standing up for rationality and critical thinking... calling out tired tropes and flimsy reasoning... obvious indicators of 'damage'.

I guess shutting up and not saying anything would be more healthy. Well, anyone paying attention knows ....thats not likely to happen.



I'm all for agnosticism. But in my mind it's a bit of semantic equivocation or muddle-headed thinking if one isnt equally agnostic about - or cant explain why they AREN'T equally agnostic about - "Higher Powers", JHVH, Zeus, Quetzlocatl, the Easter Bunny, King Kong, bigfoot, and Tinkerbell.

Sure,"agnosticism" is great. But if the word "God" can mean everything, it ceases to mean anything.

As for overreacting, I think my first response in this thread was pretty reasonable. As were the subsequent ones.

And a bunch of people found the line objectionable, not just damaged ol' me.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #146)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:49 AM

151. Me too. I've been called 'damaged' and a 'militant' feminist before.

Funny how some talking points never seem to go out of style.

I finally decided to wear 'militant' as a badge of honor.

I am a militant liberal, feminist, atheist and Star Trek enthusiast. Not necessarily in that order.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #146)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:49 AM

172. Lord in heaven WD

(Pun intended) I didn't call YOU damaged. It's a personal observation. I know a ton of people from many different places, including activist atheists. And yeah--they're a little screwy.

I don't know you from a can of paint in the road, aside from a discussion board. You could be the veritable picture of mental health and personal stability for all I know.

Calm down, calm down--it's ok. It's OK. I get your point. I just thought the entire thread devolved into a ridiculous argument and it puzzled me. I don't use the saying either, its antiquated, but I think the OP is trying to make a broader point

I'm agnostic the way Neil DeGrasse Tyson is agnostic. Hardly muddled thinking.


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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #172)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:34 PM

242. well the doctor called me crazy, some says I am, some says I aint

yes, the doctor called me crazy, some says I am, some says I aint

Some people say I'm a doorknob
others say I'm a can of paint

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #146)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:41 AM

196. You are, of course, on the right side of this argument.


I stop being astonished at people who fail to acknowledge double standards a long time ago, but it's truly sad that folks can't check their egos and admit that there is more than just a slight associated with this ignorant trope. How can they possibly not see that non-believers deserve the same respect as racial minorities, LGBT folks etc.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:56 PM

78. Your messaging is off, but your sentiment is right on

I'm sure even all of the atheists here agree with the sentiment.

Just for explanation, though, and I promise I mean no criticism: "atheism" is one of the major categories that people are bigoted against. Not as major as race or sex, but high up in the rankings. Weirdly high. Most higher than religious people would realize. It's kind of an invisible prejudice.

I've lost close friends when I mentioned my atheism. I was subject to a formal disciplinary hearing at my government job based on accusations of witchcraft (sorry, sometimes autocorrect suggests "witchcraft" instead of "atheism"; they interviewed TWO HUNDRED children and I have the transcripts to prove it. I've had to pay thousands to a lawyer to prove my capacity as a parent because I was "non religious." I live for n a major West Coast city, not the Bible Belt.

I swear I've got a sense of humor; I'm just trying to explain why some of us get testy over common tropes.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #78)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:01 PM

81. Thank you. We've been told to shut up forever, because our unbelief is inconvenient.

I could go into the crap I went through as a kid outspoken about not believing, but no one wants to hear that.

Still, I think it's right to call out these tropes as tired, false, and not even that effective at carrying the broader point.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #81)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:35 PM

199. For what it's worth WD

Actually, atheists are often made in foxholes. When I was in the "foxhole" or mortar bunkers with my fellow soldiers, we would have discussions about this idea all the time. Afterwards, when folks were bleeding or dead, I'd ask the believers if they truly thought that they had been spared by their prayers while others around them were "taken"? Confusion usually was the first reaction.

Kinda like the guy who scores a touchdown and thanks god. What about the guy who's job it was to stop him from scoring who prays to the same? Did god make a choice, or is the guy celebrating being selfish? The way folks dance around these inconsistencies has always been amusing to me.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #78)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:14 PM

86. I appreciate your rather more measured response here...

compared to some of the more testy ones, but frankly I think the OP's messaging is perfectly fitting.

Of course the very old trope about there being "no atheists in foxholes" is untrue, and it is for precisely that reason that it works so well in this case--because the only people for whom that saying, or the new one proposed by the OP about socialists and disasters, is true are those with no ethical or moral conviction like Ted Cruz.

That said, I do understand your complaint, I just don't agree with it. And I believe we can still be friends.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:29 PM

92. Lesson: An analogy can distract from your point if the veracity of your analogy is controversial.

I just made the same mistake myself on another forum under another alias. I presented an argument that something was bad and then unwisely added that it was sort of like something else that was bad. The discussion got badly sidetracked by people who complained that the other thing wasn't bad.

But I agree with your point, which in essence is that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, should be expected to care about the people.

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Response to Towlie (Reply #92)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:36 PM

106. 75 Recs at 9:35 PM 9-3-17

 

Excuse me if I don't take your advice.

Looks like it got somebody's attention and they agreed.

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Response to louis c (Reply #106)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:55 PM

126. Some people rec the argument. It's not always the OP

itself that is being recommended but the content of the thread.

Sorry.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #126)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:27 AM

164. That's your opinion

 

I never Rec an OP I don't agree with 100%.

That's my opinion.

by the way, the recs are up to 93.

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Response to louis c (Reply #164)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:02 AM

174. So if lots of people agree with you, then its ok to say something that offends people?

Isn't this Trump's position?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #174)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:32 AM

185. Nearly everything that is debated by anyone, offends someone

 

If my position was Trump's position, I'm sure this OP would have been locked.

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Response to louis c (Reply #185)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:45 AM

197. I wasn't going to post in this thread..

Because its all getting heated and I don't think you wanted to provoke any kind of negative reaction like this. Despite being someone whose very far from being a 'snowflake' though, I must admit it did piss me off.

I can understand you not thinking its a big deal (and it probably isn't) but when quite a few people get annoyed by it, just telling them 'well it got lots of recs' is a bit of an offhand way to brush them off.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #197)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:09 PM

215. Maybe it wasn't intentional.

But, louis c has been here a long time. Anyone who's been on the DU for that long almost certainly knows the following:

1: The saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a lie, and
2. That saying annoys some DUers, precisely because it's a lie. In some cases, it's a lie about them or their loved ones.

Even if he didn't know it before, he surely knows it now. Most of the requests to remove the lie in the OP have been polite. Many of the posters responding to those polite requests have engaged in ridicule and namecalling. Louis c sees this perfectly well, and has decided to leave the lie in place.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #215)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:46 PM

247. It's a time worn statement

 

Come on

If an atheist sneezes and I say God Bless You, should the sneezer take it as an insult?

If we act like this about a statement like that, how in the hell are we going to hold our own in debates against hard line right wingers? We'll look like fools.

As a matter of fact, I had no idea that phrase would offend anyone. The intent is to use it in a debate against the other side. I have been here a long time, since 2004. I contribute financially (albeit, a small donation) to this site and read it every day.

If the offended parties to "there are no atheists in fox holes" are that sensitive, I sure wouldn't want them out there with me while I'm debating hard liners.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:34 PM

95. My dad became an atheist during wwII.

Consider an edit.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:49 PM

140. OP was turning a (fake) cliche on on its ear.

He set up that shopworn expression to knock it down with some truth.

I'm an atheist, and I'm not offended in the least

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Response to VOX (Reply #140)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 06:52 AM

162. Thanks

 

You got my point.

I'd say God Bless You, but I'm an Atheist, too

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Response to VOX (Reply #140)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:49 AM

173. uh no the op did no such thing.

He was not knocking down the stupid bigoted and false "no atheists in foxholes" aphorism, he was making an analogy to it with his second aphorism "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".


Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".


If the op was "knocking down" the first then the op was also falsifying the second. In that case the op would make no sense at all, as he goes on to say:


All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.

All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.

What's the matter, too liberal for ya?


So no, your splain is nonsense.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #173)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:34 AM

186. 111 Recs

 

I guess somebody understood, even if you didn't.

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Response to louis c (Reply #186)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:39 AM

187. So are you now claiming that your point was that "no atheists in foxholes" is false?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #187)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:25 AM

195. I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes

 

just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.

But I'm also sure that there are very few Right Wing Atheists. So, the subject line is a suggestion of how to get our opponents attention to drive home a point.

Now, I certainly didn't explain it in the OP. At least 100 DUers understood my point and a few didn't.

Are the critics here offended if a co-worker says "God Bless You" when you sneeze? Or leave out "under God" in the pledge of allegiance? or refuse to sing God Bless America at a left wing event, such as a union or a Dem Convention? or refuse to attend a church wedding for a sibling or a church funeral for a parent?

Come on, get with it. Don't make the Perfect the enemy of the Good.

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Response to louis c (Reply #195)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:57 PM

212. So if I understand your latest explanation


195. I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes
just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.


An atheist in a foxhole would be equivalent to people in a disaster area who still want small government.

Have I misrepresented your position?

If not are you being intentionally insulting to atheists or are you completely oblivious to the implications of what you wrote?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #212)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:03 PM

214. To those who believe the statements.

 

You conveniently leave out the fact that the subject line is to be used against right wingers, because it strikes to the heart of their beliefs.

Again, I am an Atheist.

145 recs. Over 200 replies.

It seems as though a tremendous number of DUers get the point, even if you don't.

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Response to louis c (Reply #214)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 12:35 AM

257. You don't convince but you do spend most of your time

flattering yourself it seems. If all you have are replies and recs to bolster your point you must be feeling under some pressure to prove it. You should. Considerably more than half the replies are negative toward your position either in part or completely dismissing it. Many of the recs are DUrs that like to push against atheists whenever they get the chance. Many others are rec'ing because they are supporting Warren's argument since it's a worthy and necessary position to argue.

As far as claiming to be atheist, just the fact that you keep repeating, "I am an Atheist" shows you don't really know what atheist means, you don't have a reasonable grasp of the language, or you're not atheist at all. When you say, "I am an Atheist" you are saying you belong to some organized religion, church, sect, or a named group.. Do you? Maybe, The Church of Atheism or the like? You either do or you don't know what you're talking about. If you're trying to say that you don't believe in a deity then you should be saying, "I am atheist". No capital A, no an, just I am non-theist... atheist.

But go ahead, flatter yourself if it makes you feel better. Or maybe try some of that "always doing good for people" stuff that you tout but so far show no sign of actually being able to do.

Don't be hard on yourself though... I also rec'd your OP.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #257)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 06:38 AM

260. Most of the negative replies are from the same people

 

And a rec doesn't need to reply.

It's a matter of opinion on whether or not you should feel offended. The fact that someone is offended is not in question. I can't help how someone "feels".

That certainly was not my intention. But if we are going to stand up to the real political enemies that threaten this country, we better have thicker skin than has been displayed here by some DUers.

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Response to louis c (Reply #260)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 05:02 PM

267. Well I'll hand you this....

It did turn out to be a hell of a thread! Although I do think the message you meant to make got lost in a flurry of resonance for whatever reason.

If you were to take another stab at making your point, would you do it differently? I don't mean change your present post or go back in time, I just mean would you do it again a different way? Just curious, I'm not saving any cards.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #267)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 08:49 PM

268. No.

 

Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 10:27 AM - Edit history (1)

I really don't think the fox hole thing should be offensive. I'm an Atheist, but by no means do I lead that into any political discussion.

Atheism, to me, is basically no religion. If someone, in a personal conversation, says, "what religion are you?", I don't say "Atheist". I reply "I'm not religious", and leave it at that.

I try to convert people to join unions, vote Democratic, or stand up for Liberal ideals.

Wearing Atheism on your sleeve will shut you out of the other discussions in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.

It would be different if I wanted to convert my fellow man to Atheism, but it's just a belief (or non-belief system) to me. I don't care if I'm the only Atheist in the world, or everyone is. Politics and Unionism are my passion. Those are the converts I want to make. Maybe I thought that all Atheists felt that way. I have never met anyone who tried to convert people to Atheism.

But, to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have made my point differently. As a matter of fact, I came up with this phrase and was using it for 3 days and everyone I know got a kick out of it, understood the point, and was using it with Trumpsters they knew.

It seemed so effective, that I thought I'd share it here.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:47 AM

166. That ought to be a bumper sticker! Nt

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:03 AM

167. as a non-believer I had to LOL at this thread.

rec'd too

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Response to KG (Reply #167)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:40 AM

171. It's not what the OP intended... but it's COMEDY GOLD!!

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #171)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:49 PM

231. ...

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #231)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:04 PM

235. ###

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #235)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:13 PM

237. Well, I see how much respect you think the family of Pat Tillman deserves.

"Comedy Gold", amirite?

Classy.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #237)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:41 PM

243. LOL ... Yeah right. Sure. Whatever.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #243)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:44 PM

245. like, ohmigod totally

gag me with a spoon!

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #245)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:54 PM

250. LOL

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:24 AM

177. Bam!

Back on "DU Front Page Greatest Threads!"

"Reading the OP" triumphs again!



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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:01 AM

188. This "conversation" over atheists in a fox hole...

rather than Repunks being hypocrites is stealing this thread and changing the focus of the main point.

If you want to have a convo about tired trite clichés please start your own thread.

This is supposed to be a discussion about what Government should be doing for the people in the US...

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #188)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:13 PM

208. If you want a conversation about repukes being hypocrites...

Don't do it by invoking a bigoted statement!

If a racist phrase had been used to prop up this failed analogy (say insulting the Tuskegee airmen) this post would have gotten hidden.

If you don't like the direction this thread turned, convince the OP to remove the part about atheists or create a new thread and don't use a bigoted cliche.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #208)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:00 PM

213. Oh geez....

Co-opt away judgy judgertons....

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:13 AM

189. Your point is excellent and I agree with it

If people would stop being deeply offended all the time about minutae maybe your suggestion might work. And I'm an atheist! I'm just not a kneejerk reactionary one in a constant defensive grouch.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:20 AM

192. Sometimes it feels like. . .

. . .we're all sharing a foxhole these days, thanks to Trump & Company. After reading the entire thread and seeing valid, well-meaning arguments on both sides, I do have some concerns about our chances for survival. Also, as a radicalized feminist, I hope that if I ever dig in my heels and object to the casual sexism that appears on DU here and there, I will take the lessons of this thread into battle.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:35 PM

200. "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".

"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".

I GOT YOUR POINT.

(i can't believe this thread)

"All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states."

"All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves. "

(maybe let's try this again and simplify it)

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:50 PM

203. Neither statement is true,

foxholes don't turn atheists into believers and government aid for disasters doesn't require a belief that government should own the means of production.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:17 PM

205. I've been in foxholes. I don't recollect any conversations about religion or spirituality.

During an actual (ok, fake) attack the conversation tended towards coprofelia and coitus as in...

"Shit, shit, shit, shit oh fuck me where's my helmet."

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:29 PM

206. To be honest this is the first time

 

I have heard that saying. I'm an atheist, but your thread does not offend me since I understood the point you made. 136 recs and counting. I'm amazed at all of the complaining in this thread. Someone even tried to get this topic removed?

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #206)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:33 PM

219. +++++++++++....

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:36 PM

211. It's selfishness

That's a pillar of conservative ideology. Me me me

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:54 PM

221. It's not even a "liberal" concept. It's common sense and essential to the survival of our species.

An excellent free online book by anarchist-communist, Peter Kropotkin, is Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution.

Wikipedia:

Kropotkin pointed out the distinction between the direct struggle among individuals for limited resources (generally called competition) and the more metaphorical struggle between organisms and the environment (tending to be cooperative). He therefore did not deny the competitive form of struggle, but argued that the cooperative counterpart has been underemphasized: "There is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species; there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defense...Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle."
- emphasis mine

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:27 PM

225. I guess this atheist will have to fight the republicans without you.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:31 PM

226. As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out. They want othe

As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out.

They want others to stand on their own two feet, pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:58 PM

233. Here, this is my last "overreaction" to this thread.








There. I've made the point I wanted to make, ignore it or don't- carry on. No one is going to melt if you continue to use a tired and patently false trope to try and make this point. Enjoy.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:46 PM

246. using an insult to make a point is probably not a good idea; find a better way. nt

 

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Response to TheFrenchRazor (Reply #246)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:48 PM

248. thanks for your advice

 

but I'll do it my way.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 12:38 AM

258. Did you really rec your own OP?

I don't believe it.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #258)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:35 PM

270. I always do

 

you think Hillary and Trump voted for themselves?

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 05:13 PM

271. What is your proof there are no Athiests in foxholes?

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