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louis c

(8,652 posts)
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:39 PM Sep 2017

Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that...

"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".

All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.

All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.

What's the matter, too liberal for ya?

271 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that... (Original Post) louis c Sep 2017 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #1
because I use the phrase, doesn't mean I agree with it louis c Sep 2017 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #6
I think you bring your argument to an exteme louis c Sep 2017 #15
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #17
With enough your rationality absolutely will go out the window mythology Sep 2017 #73
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #74
Or you could just accept that in the modern world, phrases mean things, and learn to Ninsianna Sep 2017 #160
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #163
Allow me... Behind the Aegis Sep 2017 #239
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #240
Wow. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #244
No, it was your response, a rather jingoistic, egostistical western one Ninsianna Sep 2017 #261
Agreed. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #161
How do you KNOW Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2017 #227
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #230
I understand though it's a big task if you wish the Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2017 #254
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #255
By your own argument, isn't saying "Magic Man in the sky" offensive? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2017 #224
We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to. LanternWaste Sep 2017 #264
I agree with you. This is a very old statement and your use to make a point is warranted. rustydog Sep 2017 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #49
Exactly. I agree, and it is a great way to make these "no federal help" creeps lose credibility and anneboleyn Sep 2017 #63
Thank you for getting back to the point, the hypocrisy of Cruz and the Texas repugs brush Sep 2017 #178
Exactly this. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2017 #223
To be fair, it's a turn of phrase that drives his point. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2017 #222
Holy shit, someone who gets it louis c Sep 2017 #249
Don't kid yourself--everyone gets it Orrex Sep 2017 #263
Can we agree at least that it was poorly worded? Orrex Sep 2017 #262
It's still insensitive. tymorial Sep 2017 #29
Not just insensitive, but flat wrong. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #128
Charles Rangel used that expression many times. I guess it goes back to a time.... George II Sep 2017 #220
There are numerous examples of language which was once socially tymorial Sep 2017 #252
For the record, I don't like it. Chemisse Sep 2017 #253
Warren is right. When you say "Just as X is true..." you're saying that X is true. Towlie Sep 2017 #36
I got your point Louis without reading too much kacekwl Sep 2017 #89
Holy Cow louis c Sep 2017 #114
I'm also an atheist. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #129
Just to point out, the full definition of "bigot" Crash2Parties Sep 2017 #144
I'm an athiest and I am not offended. I understand the point you were trying smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #148
It's a great thing that liberals are highly intelligent and not authoritarians BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2017 #204
If you don't believe the phrase, then the "just as" doesn't work. Gore1FL Sep 2017 #179
It's meant to be used against our opponents louis c Sep 2017 #236
Even against our political opponents it's fundamentally flawed. Gore1FL Sep 2017 #238
5 Stars in the greatest page louis c Sep 2017 #241
Moving the goalposts doesn't change the worthiness of the criticisms Gore1FL Sep 2017 #251
It's not a pissing contest, at least not until you turned it into one. Orrex Sep 2017 #265
I joined this site because it is called Democratic Underground louis c Sep 2017 #269
Thank you. Solly Mack Sep 2017 #5
Agreed, the FFRF even dedicated a monument to atheist vets: beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #12
Thank you. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #43
AW man? Give it a rest? trof Sep 2017 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #55
Bingo. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #60
So you're pissed off because someone said 'there are no atheists in foxholes'? trof Sep 2017 #72
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #76
OK, ya got me. I had to look up 'trope'. trof Sep 2017 #85
Here's another trope: people who object to bigoted Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #94
I'm pissed. Brainstormy Sep 2017 #97
False. Demonstrably false. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #130
Reminder to players in the 'Take a shot every time an atheist is offended' DU drinking game. betsuni Sep 2017 #170
Silly arguments and objections ... CCExile Sep 2017 #66
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #67
And it appears we're to blame for Trump too. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #99
Liberals arguing inanities certainly aided in the rise of Trump. Liberal "purity tests" ... CCExile Sep 2017 #232
There ya go. trof Sep 2017 #77
or should be louis c Sep 2017 #121
The religious right believe that saying! Why pander Lars39 Sep 2017 #122
Anecdotal. Point is, the statement is FALSE. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #131
The statement is not false to those we're trying to convince. louis c Sep 2017 #218
So, the OP would have been very easy to "fix" Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #229
Here, we have an OP saying the same thing.............. louis c Sep 2017 #234
Good grief. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #256
Thanks louis c Sep 2017 #259
Not sure why you're thanking me. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #266
Indeed. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #90
Yep. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #132
Very true Blecht Sep 2017 #93
Thank you. n/t Brainstormy Sep 2017 #96
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #145
You are kidding. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #155
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #156
... beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #157
Agreed. Plenty of Atheists in Fox holes but onit2day Sep 2017 #201
Yep. Dark n Stormy Knight Sep 2017 #216
Come on Warren. Cary Sep 2017 #228
Yep! A national emergency is NO time to be a bean counter. calimary Sep 2017 #2
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #3
I'm an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac panader0 Sep 2017 #9
There are a number of circumstances we find ourselves in... yallerdawg Sep 2017 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #14
This is a reference to an appropriate analogy related to the hypocrisy of conservatism. yallerdawg Sep 2017 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #19
I'm an atheist, and a DU member. ChazInAz Sep 2017 #33
Same, and agree. nt. Amimnoch Sep 2017 #91
+1000 smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #149
I took it the way you took it. Thank you. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #45
"Hic" betsuni Sep 2017 #175
Yes, bigoted atheist trope. Take it from this vet: beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #16
It's a freakin' relatable analogy to the point of the post! yallerdawg Sep 2017 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #24
On the Front Page of DU with "recs." yallerdawg Sep 2017 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #31
It's about hypocrisy and those who practice it. yallerdawg Sep 2017 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #53
Generalites by definition don't apply to every individual. yallerdawg Sep 2017 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #71
For some, apparently not. Thank you again. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #134
Add me to the list. defacto7 Sep 2017 #124
I'm not crucifying anyone, I'm responding to the claim that this isn't a bigoted trope. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #25
Well, that's just the same as crucifying someone. Mariana Sep 2017 #158
That struck me too. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #159
So it would be okay to use a racist trope if it helps an analogy? LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #26
I'm glad you're on our side! yallerdawg Sep 2017 #27
You are NOT on my side if you are okay with this LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #41
Thank you. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #54
That right there! beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #61
Hey! Toorich Sep 2017 #182
Common, if you are going to troll at least put some effort into it. LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #207
Yes, those silly minorities, always 'raising a ruckus' about bigotry. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #51
Hello... Behind the Aegis Sep 2017 #100
Oh I remember that well. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #101
That was particularly odious. demmiblue Sep 2017 #217
" It's not an indictment of atheists. " Iggo Sep 2017 #34
+1 beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #39
Yep. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #47
"It's not an indictment of atheists." Lordquinton Sep 2017 #110
No problem here. SCVDem Sep 2017 #40
Trouble is, the initial premise is FALSE. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #133
These anti-government conservatives are often hypocrites TDale313 Sep 2017 #7
Your 100% right...and on a much smaller scale Bengus81 Sep 2017 #8
My DH used to say about Barry Goldwater: marybourg Sep 2017 #13
The atheist trope is patently untrue and so is the idea that... Expecting Rain Sep 2017 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #20
Please change your OP title, it is a hateful, false, and bigoted stereotype. NT LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #21
No, I won't louis c Sep 2017 #107
Why not? LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #115
The anology is made to convince Right Wingers in a discussion louis c Sep 2017 #120
But this is not a right wing site LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #123
Bingo. If a racist trope was used to make a point would it be acceptable? beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #125
I agree. defacto7 Sep 2017 #142
My intenntion, in almost all of my posts louis c Sep 2017 #165
No worries, FWIW, I get you. A French philosopher once wrote: oasis Sep 2017 #168
Oh, ffs! smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #150
I know right? It's not hard to change an offense OP! Nt LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #152
Especially when you're wrong (NT) louis c Sep 2017 #169
wrong about what? Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #183
So, not at all then. Iggo Sep 2017 #23
Lots of believers lose their faith in war. I also enjoy the admittance that people require lindysalsagal Sep 2017 #30
Nope. Not too liberal for me at all. ancianita Sep 2017 #32
See why we can't get anything done? Your point about republican/libertarian hypocrisy... TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #35
Could have been a win if it accused GOPers of making the stmt leftstreet Sep 2017 #38
Yes, he should change the first sentence Ligyron Sep 2017 #82
The analogy starts with an obvious untruth. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #50
But it is not stated as truth, merely an allusion leading to the truth. TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #116
Oh please give me a ing break. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #127
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #59
You're spendin a lot of time battling that analogy. How do you feel about the point of the post? TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #117
I don't appreciate reasoning from a false premise, Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #135
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #147
Logically speaking, there is no point of the post. Gore1FL Sep 2017 #180
Or we could listen and respond to criticism. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #98
We could also avoid being sidelined by irrelevant criticism. TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #118
Exactly nini Sep 2017 #103
Thank you! smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #153
It boggles the mind really nini Sep 2017 #194
"when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory." Lordquinton Sep 2017 #111
Offensive? And you wonder why people call liberals "snowflakes"? A lot more time here was spent... TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #119
Well, if a comment starts from offensive, not to mention untrue, Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #136
Everything LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #138
Thanks. That was my interpretation of some of the comments. nt Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #139
Yep Sugarcoated Sep 2017 #137
You're the one calling liberals names Lordquinton Sep 2017 #143
This... Myrddin Sep 2017 #210
Very True. Snackshack Sep 2017 #42
Actually, there are nothing but atheists in foxholes. stopbush Sep 2017 #46
BAM! Hell yeah! trof Sep 2017 #62
I'm not sure who told you a belief in God grants physical invulnerability... linuxman Sep 2017 #109
Isaiah 54:17 stopbush Sep 2017 #191
The day I meet actually meet an old testament adhering literalist, I'll let them know they can cross linuxman Sep 2017 #193
Kurt Vonnegut (another atheist in a foxhole) wrote in Hocus Pocus Lordquinton Sep 2017 #113
Aphorism. yallerdawg Sep 2017 #52
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #56
Well, the aphorism in contention does not in fact state a general truth. Susan Calvin Sep 2017 #58
You seem really upset Lordquinton Sep 2017 #112
That's bullshit. Iggo Sep 2017 #181
"A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse." yallerdawg Sep 2017 #184
Okay, that's enough. Iggo Sep 2017 #202
The p.c. here kills me askyagerz Sep 2017 #64
Careful. kag Sep 2017 #80
Haha no worries I'm good at dodging rocks askyagerz Sep 2017 #88
+1000 smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #154
Stuff like this is why Dems don't rule the world askyagerz Sep 2017 #198
Wow. It's too bad that your excellent point is being lost on people who... kag Sep 2017 #65
triggered? Its a shitty analogy- and not true. Like attributing that "Definition of Insanity" quote Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #68
"Hey, Bartender." betsuni Sep 2017 #176
Inferring that someone is posting drunk? Lars39 Sep 2017 #209
What excellent points? Expecting Rain Sep 2017 #70
Holy crap--I was wondering what was going on with this thread. ismnotwasm Sep 2017 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #79
I do and I'm sure his family does as well. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #83
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #84
Hey at least we're not the most hated religious minority in America anymore. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #87
You don't think you're over-reacting a teensy little bit? ismnotwasm Sep 2017 #102
Food for thought. Behind the Aegis Sep 2017 #104
I think that's the part that caused me to reply in the first place ismnotwasm Sep 2017 #105
With a church on every corner here in a red state, Lars39 Sep 2017 #108
Appreciate your post, especially the proper usage defacto7 Sep 2017 #141
Vehement responses? You mean to the OP? Mariana Sep 2017 #190
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #146
Me too. I've been called 'damaged' and a 'militant' feminist before. beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #151
Lord in heaven WD ismnotwasm Sep 2017 #172
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #242
You are, of course, on the right side of this argument. pablo_marmol Sep 2017 #196
Your messaging is off, but your sentiment is right on Nevernose Sep 2017 #78
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #81
For what it's worth WD shadowmayor Sep 2017 #199
I appreciate your rather more measured response here... kag Sep 2017 #86
Lesson: An analogy can distract from your point if the veracity of your analogy is controversial. Towlie Sep 2017 #92
75 Recs at 9:35 PM 9-3-17 louis c Sep 2017 #106
Some people rec the argument. It's not always the OP defacto7 Sep 2017 #126
That's your opinion louis c Sep 2017 #164
So if lots of people agree with you, then its ok to say something that offends people? Kentonio Sep 2017 #174
Nearly everything that is debated by anyone, offends someone louis c Sep 2017 #185
I wasn't going to post in this thread.. Kentonio Sep 2017 #197
Maybe it wasn't intentional. Mariana Sep 2017 #215
It's a time worn statement louis c Sep 2017 #247
My dad became an atheist during wwII. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #95
OP was turning a (fake) cliche on on its ear. VOX Sep 2017 #140
Thanks louis c Sep 2017 #162
uh no the op did no such thing. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #173
111 Recs louis c Sep 2017 #186
So are you now claiming that your point was that "no atheists in foxholes" is false? Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #187
I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes louis c Sep 2017 #195
So if I understand your latest explanation Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #212
To those who believe the statements. louis c Sep 2017 #214
You don't convince but you do spend most of your time defacto7 Sep 2017 #257
Most of the negative replies are from the same people louis c Sep 2017 #260
Well I'll hand you this.... defacto7 Sep 2017 #267
No. louis c Sep 2017 #268
That ought to be a bumper sticker! Nt raccoon Sep 2017 #166
as a non-believer I had to LOL at this thread. KG Sep 2017 #167
It's not what the OP intended... but it's COMEDY GOLD!! NurseJackie Sep 2017 #171
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #231
### NurseJackie Sep 2017 #235
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #237
LOL ... Yeah right. Sure. Whatever. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #243
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #245
LOL NurseJackie Sep 2017 #250
Bam! yallerdawg Sep 2017 #177
This "conversation" over atheists in a fox hole... LakeArenal Sep 2017 #188
If you want a conversation about repukes being hypocrites... LostOne4Ever Sep 2017 #208
Oh geez.... LakeArenal Sep 2017 #213
Your point is excellent and I agree with it lunatica Sep 2017 #189
Sometimes it feels like. . . ariadne0614 Sep 2017 #192
"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster". orleans Sep 2017 #200
Neither statement is true, Progressive dog Sep 2017 #203
I've been in foxholes. I don't recollect any conversations about religion or spirituality. TrogL Sep 2017 #205
To be honest this is the first time liquid diamond Sep 2017 #206
+++++++++++.... JHan Sep 2017 #219
It's selfishness Renew Deal Sep 2017 #211
It's not even a "liberal" concept. It's common sense and essential to the survival of our species. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2017 #221
I guess this atheist will have to fight the republicans without you. Iggo Sep 2017 #225
As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out. They want othe keithbvadu2 Sep 2017 #226
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #233
using an insult to make a point is probably not a good idea; find a better way. nt TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #246
thanks for your advice louis c Sep 2017 #248
Did you really rec your own OP? defacto7 Sep 2017 #258
I always do louis c Sep 2017 #270
What is your proof there are no Athiests in foxholes? yortsed snacilbuper Sep 2017 #271

Response to louis c (Original post)

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
4. because I use the phrase, doesn't mean I agree with it
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:49 PM
Sep 2017

I am an Secular Humanist.

I am sure when I face death that I will remain as such.

It's just a well known phrase and it makes the point that people can have flimsy beliefs.

If Ted Cruz knew he was a Socialist when he wants $160 Billion in relief for his constituents, he would deny it.

Response to louis c (Reply #4)

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
15. I think you bring your argument to an exteme
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:04 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

since the phrase means that everyone prays as they face death. The type of prayer is not the point of the phrase.

It's a well worn phrase. I don't believe in it, I am a Secular Humanist, which is just a fancy way of saying Atheist. I still say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I still enter a church or synagogue for weddings a funerals. I still respect others' beliefs and don't ever try to change them.

If someone used this phrase in front of me, I would not correct them. On the other hand, if they say they voted for Trump, we would then have an argument.

I don't mind standing up for what I believe in, but I'm not going to fight every battle every day.

Response to louis c (Reply #15)

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
73. With enough your rationality absolutely will go out the window
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:53 PM
Sep 2017

It's why torture doesn't work for example.

Response to mythology (Reply #73)

Ninsianna

(1,349 posts)
160. Or you could just accept that in the modern world, phrases mean things, and learn to
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:36 AM
Sep 2017

accept them, that is the advice that someone gave when it came to actual offensive crap about things that hurt the sentiments of a much larger group of people who were also in foxholes serving bravely and fighting for good against Nazis.


Lots of offensive things that should be put to bed, in the modern world, amirite?

Response to Ninsianna (Reply #160)

Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #239)

Ninsianna

(1,349 posts)
261. No, it was your response, a rather jingoistic, egostistical western one
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 01:52 PM
Sep 2017

when people's beliefs were actually attacked.

It's pretty relevant when it seems that when you have decided to take a common phrase as an attack against yourself, that's somehow not okay. Modern Western culture isn't attacking atheists or you personally with this phrase, they have robbed you of nothing, they have launched an attack.

I get it though, double standards, when brown people are being violated and it's real damage, it's okay, but when others have decided to make something out of nothing, that's fine as long as it affects oneself.

There was no thing, but the commentary and the double standards are amusing.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
161. Agreed.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 06:13 AM
Sep 2017

When members of a minority group object to a bigoted trope why not just stop using it? It costs me nothing to be careful about the words I use.

Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #227)

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,463 posts)
254. I understand though it's a big task if you wish the
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:08 PM
Sep 2017

language to be cleaned up of all such idioms ( I think that's what they are called). For example, the 'rule of thumb' phrase needs to be weeded out.......

Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #254)

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
224. By your own argument, isn't saying "Magic Man in the sky" offensive?
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:06 PM
Sep 2017

To be clear, I don't think it is, but the construct of your argument logically implies it is offensive.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
264. We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to.
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:17 PM
Sep 2017

I especially enjoyed how you rail against offensive phrases while using the "magic man" trope in as offensive a manner as you can get away with.

We often demand a higher standard in others than we hold ourselves to. It's human nature...

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
44. I agree with you. This is a very old statement and your use to make a point is warranted.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:25 PM
Sep 2017

The hypocrisy of Republicans who claim to hate government are pretty quick suckling at the government teat .
I hole referring to the government relief programs as a teat doesn't offend someone!

Response to rustydog (Reply #44)

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
63. Exactly. I agree, and it is a great way to make these "no federal help" creeps lose credibility and
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:36 PM
Sep 2017

help some of the folks who don't necessarily understand why federal assistance is a must in cases like Harvey or Katrina or Sandy.

brush

(53,331 posts)
178. Thank you for getting back to the point, the hypocrisy of Cruz and the Texas repugs
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:30 AM
Sep 2017

Someone ought to create another thread for back and forth that's hijacking this one.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
223. Exactly this.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:03 PM
Sep 2017

I don't know how many safe places we have to create before we can even advance an argument. Now we're talking about a red herring instead of discussing your original point. It's a pity because the Left has great arguments, but the constant infighting is tiresome. I wonder if some of it it's by design.

Orrex

(63,057 posts)
263. Don't kid yourself--everyone gets it
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:14 PM
Sep 2017

Your point was not especially sophisticated or hard to understand.

However, a number of people have taken issue with your poor wording and your refusal to recognize it.

Orrex

(63,057 posts)
262. Can we agree at least that it was poorly worded?
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:12 PM
Sep 2017

Specifically it was worded in such a way that clearly indicates that the OP holds the phrase to be true?

The key part is "just as," meaning that the truth of one subsequent phrase is "just as" true as the other subsequent phrase. That is, if we accept as true the repeatedly (and currently) demonstrated phenomenon of even the most spirited Libertarians grateful to accept the help of the socialist government, then we should equally accept that there are no atheists in foxholes.

On the other hand, we could conclude that--since there are atheists in foxholes--then not everyone is a socialist during a natural disaster.

From a rhetorical standpoint, the comparison falters.

A more accurate way to word the OP is this:
"Although it's not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, it is absolutely true that Capitalists welcome Socialist aid in times of disaster." Phrased that way--which we can infer was the OP's actual intent--it's clear that the comparison doesn't quite work as constructed.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
29. It's still insensitive.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:58 PM
Sep 2017

Your choice of expression is at question not the message. The intent of your post may be well-meaning but the subject matter is bigoted.

George II

(67,782 posts)
220. Charles Rangel used that expression many times. I guess it goes back to a time....
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:53 PM
Sep 2017

....when he was thrown into a ditch by an explosion in Korea. He wrote that the blast "caused him to pray fervently to Jesus".

I've heard and/or used that expression dozens and dozens of times over the years, I've never heard any objections to it.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
252. There are numerous examples of language which was once socially
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:57 PM
Sep 2017

Acceptable but is now recognized as being insensitive. The mere fact that statements, idioms, tropes and terminology were once used without objection does not equate to being inoffensive and/or insensitive.

Chemisse

(30,783 posts)
253. For the record, I don't like it.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 06:09 PM
Sep 2017

I've never complained about it and don't ask that it be banned on DU.

But it is insulting. It's a smug assertion that when push comes to shove, all atheists will 'come to Jesus.'

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
114. Holy Cow
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:00 PM
Sep 2017

I just thought it was a clever phrase to use as an analogy, especially to my RW religious friends who voted for Trump and want smaller government. It seemed like a point they could understand and be left without a response.

I certainly didn't expect this reaction from some of our DUers. I'm an Atheist. I have read the Bible numerous times for its historical content and to argue points of hypocrisy with right wingers.

This phrase never hit me as bigoted, any more than "Voodoo Economics" or "Witch Hunt" is a bigoted statement.

Crash2Parties

(6,017 posts)
144. Just to point out, the full definition of "bigot"
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:16 AM
Sep 2017

is,

"a superstitious religious hypocrite"

Witch Hunts were the Church hunting down mostly women in local positions of power during the 1480's to 1600. The trials were usually quite superstitious and were used to eliminate the last traces of matriarchal / matrilineal societies in much of Europe as they were a threat to the Church & it's partners.

Voodoo Economics used the word "Voodoo" in a similar way, which historically established that non-christian beliefs, cultures and religions as "false", "ignorant" and "primative".

So, considering the etymology of the words, ...yeah. They don't *seem* bigoted...to people in a white, male, christian dominated society.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
148. I'm an athiest and I am not offended. I understand the point you were trying
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:36 AM
Sep 2017

to make and didn't read too much into it. Jeez, a lot of touchy people here. I can't believe how many people took offense to this.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
204. It's a great thing that liberals are highly intelligent and not authoritarians
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:06 PM
Sep 2017

But it also leads to bickering over arcane, academic minutiae. Makes it hard to present a unified force against the jackboots.

I'm a Buddhist, which is inherently atheist (though some schools worship shakyamuni as if he were a deity, against his teachings. But I digress, in an arcane and academic fashion.). So I'm always having to mentally parse common wisdoms of a Judeo/Christian culture.

Gore1FL

(20,993 posts)
179. If you don't believe the phrase, then the "just as" doesn't work.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:44 AM
Sep 2017

The "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster" then becomes a logically false assertion too.

Perhaps a better title would be "You can be an atheist in a fox hole, but it turns out that being a Socialist during a natural disaster is mandatory." or some such.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
236. It's meant to be used against our opponents
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:10 PM
Sep 2017

The last line is the give away.

"Not too Liberal for Ya"

Certainly that's meant for Freepers and to be used by DUers against our opponents.

A vast majority of DUers got that, hence the 155 recs.

Some didn't.

I'm sorry for that, but I'm not in the habit of trying to please everyone I meet. Not even here.

Gore1FL

(20,993 posts)
238. Even against our political opponents it's fundamentally flawed.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:16 PM
Sep 2017

Additionally, if 155 of DUers is a "vast majority" this site has really taken a membership hit.

You're 0-2 on logic points at the moment--the difference though is the second one wasn't an offensive falsehood like the first.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
241. 5 Stars in the greatest page
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:33 PM
Sep 2017

you are not going to say that anybody who didn't read it agrees with you?

There was only one more popular OP in the time frame.

And, it was alerted and had a jury that found in my favor, which is a random sampling of DUers

I contend that logic dictates that you're 0 for 2!

Gore1FL

(20,993 posts)
251. Moving the goalposts doesn't change the worthiness of the criticisms
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:56 PM
Sep 2017

I'm happy for you that you made a popular post. Popularity does not equal validity nor does it elevate your arguments to sound logic.

Congratulations on your recs. Please try to do better content-wise in the future. Who knows, you might even get more.

TTFN

Orrex

(63,057 posts)
265. It's not a pissing contest, at least not until you turned it into one.
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:32 PM
Sep 2017

And even if you get a million recs, you still worded your OP poorly.

You are singing your own praises as though you are waving an electoral map, and it doesn't help your credibility.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
269. I joined this site because it is called Democratic Underground
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 11:25 AM
Sep 2017

Whatever advances the cause of Democrats is the mission I signed on to.

I'm a Democrat and an Atheist, but I didn't join Atheist Underground.

trof

(54,255 posts)
48. AW man? Give it a rest?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM
Sep 2017

I'm an atheist.
Never been in a foxhole.
But I've been up on a night refueling mission in thunderstorms in an F-84 that was getting beat about at 25,000' and still managed to hook up with a KC-135 in spite of my lack of religious beliefs.

Give it a rest and try to be not so easily offended.
Thank you.

Response to trof (Reply #48)

trof

(54,255 posts)
72. So you're pissed off because someone said 'there are no atheists in foxholes'?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:53 PM
Sep 2017

Sorry bub.
I just don't get it.
Good luck with that.

Response to trof (Reply #72)

trof

(54,255 posts)
85. OK, ya got me. I had to look up 'trope'.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:12 PM
Sep 2017
A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect[1] such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices,[2] motifs or clichés in creative works.[3][4]

I'm not even sure that 'atheists in foxholes IS a trope, by the above definition.
But OK.


The term trope derives from the Greek ??ό??? (tropos), "turn, direction, way", derived from the verb ??έ???? (trepein), "to turn, to direct, to alter, to change".[3] Tropes and their classification were an important field in classical rhetoric. The study of tropes has been taken up again in modern criticism, especially in deconstruction.[5] Tropological criticism (not to be confused with tropological reading, a type of biblical exegesis) is the historical study of tropes, which aims to "define the dominant tropes of an epoch" and to "find those tropes in literary and non-literary texts", an interdisciplinary investigation of which Michel Foucault was an "important exemplar".[5]

WHEW

Examples[edit]
Rhetoricians have closely analyzed the great variety of "twists and turns" used in poetry and literature and have provided an extensive list of precise labels for these poetic devices. Examples include:
hyperbole
irony
litotes
metaphor
metonymy
oxymoron
synecdoche
For a longer list, see Figure of speech: Tropes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)

I won't make a judgement call but it is still MHO that you're pissed about SOMETHING.
Anyway, good luck with whatever it is that put a burr under your saddle.

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
94. Here's another trope: people who object to bigoted
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:32 PM
Sep 2017

statements should "chill out", are unacceptably angry, or "have a burr in their saddle".

betsuni

(25,062 posts)
170. Reminder to players in the 'Take a shot every time an atheist is offended' DU drinking game.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:32 AM
Sep 2017

"Please get a designated driver. And stay hydrated."

CCExile

(451 posts)
66. Silly arguments and objections ...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:39 PM
Sep 2017

like the ones below are a major reason the fascists are IN and we are OUT. I know many, many atheists, and I can only think of one who would be offended, and she is offended by everything.

Response to CCExile (Reply #66)

CCExile

(451 posts)
232. Liberals arguing inanities certainly aided in the rise of Trump. Liberal "purity tests" ...
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:50 PM
Sep 2017

Keep our vote counts small.

trof

(54,255 posts)
77. There ya go.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:56 PM
Sep 2017

I'll even go this far...
If you're an atheist you're probably fairly thick skinned.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
121. or should be
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:17 PM
Sep 2017

I'm the OP, I'm an Atheist and there was no harm intended. It's an old saying that people on the religious right can understand, therefore, the analogy would expose their hypocrisy for smaller government.

I'm a Socialist first, and an Atheist second.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
218. The statement is not false to those we're trying to convince.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:13 PM
Sep 2017

It strikes to their belief system.

I am heartened that 146 recs, which puts this OP on the 5 star greatest page, proves to me that a vast majority of my DUers understand my subtlety.

The fact that this post was alerted and found without fault by a randomly chosen jury of objective DUers seems to prove my point.

Another old story: "A woman was watching her son in a military parade. He was obviously marching counter to his fellow soldiers. She said to her companion, 'look, look, everyone's out of step but my son.'"

Susan Calvin

(1,642 posts)
229. So, the OP would have been very easy to "fix"
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:45 PM
Sep 2017

With a simple "a lot of people believe that".....

Very easy way to turn a false statement into a true one.

With respect to your quoting the number of recs (yet again) -

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
234. Here, we have an OP saying the same thing..............
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:02 PM
Sep 2017

....without my lead in about fox holes.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029552428

As you notice, it has 2 recs, over 150 less than my OP and well over 200 fewer replies. It has twice as many views as any post (other than Skinner's instructions) as any other post in the past 36 hours.

Of the 2 recs in the other post, one is mine and of the 7 replies, one is mine.

The last line is the give away "What's the matter, too liberal for 'ya?" That line has to be meant for Right Wingers. Certainly it's not meant for DUers.

The most important thing in making a point as that people read it.

By the way, about the recs. These are DU recs and we can assume that each one is as Liberal as either of us.

It's not like people from Free Republic are agreeing with me. They're DUers!

Susan Calvin

(1,642 posts)
256. Good grief.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:54 PM
Sep 2017

I just realized your last post directed to me on this subthread was in response to a post of mine that wasn't even a reply to you. So one can only assume you're monitoring the whole shebang and playing whack-a-mole, still. Sheesh.

Your goal seems to be to get everyone to agree with you, and, furthermore, to say they feel the way you want them to feel. Ain't going to happen. Not my problem if you persist in not listening to others and not thinking anyone else may have a point.

And recs are not proof of right, even on a liberal message board.

Now how about giving up on this? You "won."

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
259. Thanks
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 06:33 AM
Sep 2017

I never said anyone else didn't have a point. I just disagree.

If I worried about not offending anyone, ever, politics would not be my interest. I'd collect stamps or something.

Blecht

(3,803 posts)
93. Very true
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:31 PM
Sep 2017

BTW

Just served on a jury -- your response was alerted as a "personal attack" -- LOL.

Of course I chose "intent to disrupt" at the end.

Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #155)

 

onit2day

(1,201 posts)
201. Agreed. Plenty of Atheists in Fox holes but
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:42 PM
Sep 2017

they get blown to bits like everyone else. Desperate people will grasp at anything that might save them. What the phrase assumes is bogus as if when a person becomes desperate enough he will come to his senses. It's like saying you can believe in any religion you want as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, lol. Now back to those who are trying to create such fox holes.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
216. Yep.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:09 PM
Sep 2017

Not to mention, the ridiculous idea that in cases where it has occurred, the questioning or even reversal of belief in some extreme, terrifying moment serves as solid proof of some greater truth. Especially as related to those from societies where they've been exposed to pro-religious propaganda all their lives.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
228. Come on Warren.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:42 PM
Sep 2017

The phrase was put in quotes. You not only understand the opening post, but you agree with the principle. You don't have to whip things up. We have real and malicious enemies.

calimary

(80,522 posts)
2. Yep! A national emergency is NO time to be a bean counter.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:44 PM
Sep 2017

You get people the help they need WHEN they need it. You tend to THEIR needs immediately. Plenty of time later to quibble about how much it costs, when the emergency has passed or abated substantially.

People need the help. And they need it right now. Screw what it costs.

And this is ALSO not the time to be considering any kind of tax cut. You use every tax dollar you can on what people in this magnitude of trouble NEED, right NOW. Frankly, AS a taxpayer, I think that's a tremendously worthy use of my tax dollars.

Response to calimary (Reply #2)

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
11. There are a number of circumstances we find ourselves in...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM
Sep 2017

where we appeal to a 'deus ex machina' to deliver us from; where we even offer to 'make deals' with some Supreme Being if only...

A foxhole can be one of them. Waking up in a jail cell is another.

"Bigoted anti-Atheist trope?"

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #11)

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
18. This is a reference to an appropriate analogy related to the hypocrisy of conservatism.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:12 PM
Sep 2017

Nothing more.

You know what?

I'm glad you're in my Big Tent! The more the merrier!!!

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #18)

ChazInAz

(2,528 posts)
33. I'm an atheist, and a DU member.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:07 PM
Sep 2017

Why are you so stubbornly missing the point?
Why are you attacking a fellow member for a peripheral statement that is only incidental to the message?
Or are you just shit-stirring?

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
149. +1000
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:45 AM
Sep 2017

thank you! The statement in question had really nothing to do with the point of the post. It was a trite saying used in a rhetorical way to make another point, which very few people here seem to want to address.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
16. Yes, bigoted atheist trope. Take it from this vet:
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:11 PM
Sep 2017
I Was An Atheist In A Foxhole

By Philip K. Paulson

Watching the Vietnam War during the mid-1960s on the nightly news inspired me to perform my patriotic duty and join the U.S.Army. There, I was trained as a light weapons infantryman and a paratrooper. I was ordered to the front lines of battle in South Vietnam in September 1966 and fought until January 1968. I extended my tour of duty for the special privilege of an early honorable discharge.

***

I knew that proclaiming to be an atheist while on duty in South Vietnam could likely prejudice promotions and possibly cause harmful reprisals. An atheist was perceived as tantamount to being a communist. Our army chaplain was a fundamentalist Christian who saw the devil in virtually everything he didn’t believe in. Army chaplains wielded a lot of power; their opinions could make the difference between whether or not you got promoted. So, I was quiet about my nonbelief in God.

I suffered through horrifying moments, expecting to be killed. I was convinced that no cosmic rescuer would same me. Besides, I believed life after death was merely wishful thinking. There were times when I expected to suffer a painful, agonizing death. My frustration and anger at being caught in a dilemma of life- and-death situations simply infuriated me. Hearing the sound of bullets whistling through the air and popping near my ears was damned scary. Fortunately, I was never physically wounded.

One day I heard the chaplain preach that we should be happy and willing to die so that we could be with Jesus. After hearing that, some people praised God. I cursed God. Cursing and swearing were very therapeutic and healthy for me; it gave me the courage of Hercules. It gave me confidence in my ability and skill to stay alive. I was determined to live on this side of the grave. I could not believe that there was a better life than this one, so I rejected the foolish notion that my existence was based upon the extremes of God and the devil, heaven and hell, and life after death.

When facing death, my thought was to stay alive. I was just infuriated by all the people praying and wasting my precious time and theirs. When the chips are down and there’s no one to turn to for help, and you’ve found out that it’s just you who has been helping all along, that’s the big difference. I discovered in combat that there is no one to turn to — it’s just you who has been saving your own ass all along. My answer to death was simply, “Oh well, I’ll be pushing daisies.” If I survived and looked at another person’s death, I’d think it’s not my body that’s being counted.” I was fighting to stay alive — not praying for life after death.

https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/i-was-an-atheist-in-a-foxhole/


It is insulting to tell atheists that they will beg to be saved by a god they don't believe in as soon as their life is in danger.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
22. It's a freakin' relatable analogy to the point of the post!
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:24 PM
Sep 2017

I understand the 'sentiment' of the words.

It's not an indictment of atheists.

Now we crucify fellow Democrats over some freakin' words?

Jeez!

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #22)

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #28)

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
37. It's about hypocrisy and those who practice it.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:14 PM
Sep 2017

It's not literal, and the phrase is not being used literally.

This definitely doesn't even nudge my cone of militancy regarding offensive things people may say.

I have a party and a president occupying that space.

How do you feel about our "National Day of Prayer" today for the victims of Harvey declared by our federal Executive Branch?

THIS OP is offensive?

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #37)

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
69. Generalites by definition don't apply to every individual.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:46 PM
Sep 2017

That's why they are called 'generalities.'

'Deus ex machina' refers to an ancient Greek artifice in plays where the problems were resolved by the sudden entrance of a god that fixed everything.

A 'Supreme Being' would be that miraculous intercessor who would pop in out of the blue and fix our problems under extreme circumstances.

How is this a bigoted, offensive affront to atheism?

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #69)

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
25. I'm not crucifying anyone, I'm responding to the claim that this isn't a bigoted trope.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:38 PM
Sep 2017

The use of that phrase is offensive to atheists and I'm explaining why.

Mariana

(14,830 posts)
158. Well, that's just the same as crucifying someone.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:41 AM
Sep 2017

I too wonder at the use of such violent imagery. The OP has not been called names, or threatened, or insulted in any way. But yallerdawg implies that merely expressing disapproval of the use of that offensive phrase is just like hanging someone on a tree to die slowly and painfully. Nice.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
159. That struck me too.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:46 AM
Sep 2017

I haven't seen anyone attack the op, just a bunch of atheists objecting to a bigoted trope. I mean that's not up for debate, it's offensive as hell.

But they did used to say we ate babies, and someone did just call us militant, so maybe virtually crucifying people on the internet is the new version of that?

At least no one has used the e-word yet...

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
26. So it would be okay to use a racist trope if it helps an analogy?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:38 PM
Sep 2017

This is freaking pathetic that anyone thinks this is okay!!!

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
27. I'm glad you're on our side!
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 06:54 PM
Sep 2017

We're Big but need to get Bigger!

So, you keep raisin' a ruckus for what you want to get across!

I may question your opinion, but never your right to say it!

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
41. You are NOT on my side if you are okay with this
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:17 PM
Sep 2017

Atheists, like Pat Tillman, have DIED serving their country and this trope insults every single one of them. This is one of the single most insulting tropes that can be used.

If you were on our side this would insult you. By being okay with this you are saying that we matter so little to you that you are willing to allow bigotry against us to advance a minor point.

Seriously, would you be okay if someone made a racist trope against African Americans for this?

THIS IS NOT OKAY!!!

Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #41)

Toorich

(391 posts)
182. Hey!
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:22 AM
Sep 2017

Dude- your username and signature meme are extremely hurtful to those of us who are actually lost wanderers.

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
207. Common, if you are going to troll at least put some effort into it.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:53 PM
Sep 2017

That doesn't even make any ligical sense. 0/10.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
51. Yes, those silly minorities, always 'raising a ruckus' about bigotry.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:29 PM
Sep 2017

How patronizing. Do you say the same thing to other minorities when they object to bigoted stereotypes?

Behind the Aegis

(53,792 posts)
100. Hello...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:39 PM
Sep 2017
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029309554

It is ALWAYS good for minorities to stand up and speak out! There are some things which are patently offensive and others which, well, wear out over time and earn a place in the bigotry heap. I mean, certainly, there are certain types of "rigging" that people would object to no matter what point they were trying to make because it would be easily be understood to be bigoted.

Though I am getting a slight kick out of Warren's defense by using Jews as an example, as if that would not get a pass.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
101. Oh I remember that well.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:46 PM
Sep 2017

I made the point downthread that those of us who object to stereotypes are often dismissed as being sensitive snowflakes. LGBT people especially get ignored or told to suck it up. You know, because you don't want to offend anyone by being too noisy.

And yes, anti-Semitism definitely gets a pass. I got into it on Facebook with a few idiots who were offended that the anti-Semitism in Charlottesville was pointed out. You know how that goes, it's futile but somebody has to stand up.

demmiblue

(36,712 posts)
217. That was particularly odious.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:13 PM
Sep 2017

Don't forget that women should support force-birther candidates. Fuck that.

Susan Calvin

(1,642 posts)
47. Yep.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM
Sep 2017

It's saying I'll pray when I'm dying. What presumption. How would anyone else know, unless they were there at the time, which hasn't happened yet.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
40. No problem here.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:15 PM
Sep 2017

I think one can find offense everywhere if you really want to find it.

Not my idea of happiness.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
7. These anti-government conservatives are often hypocrites
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:54 PM
Sep 2017

And always are fine with Socialism if it benefits corporations or the wealthy or them personally.

The no Atheists in foxholes is just incorrect, though

Bengus81

(6,901 posts)
8. Your 100% right...and on a much smaller scale
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:54 PM
Sep 2017

Any time we have severe weather here with tree damage the "government isn't the answer,it's the problem" Republican voters here are the FIRST to get limbs stacked out on the curb for local Guberment to pick up so they don't have to pay a dump fee or hire a service.

Yup Guberment SUCKS,right up to the point where "something" affects THEM and THEIRS.

marybourg

(12,531 posts)
13. My DH used to say about Barry Goldwater:
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM
Sep 2017

"He was against 'creeping socialism' until it creeped into Arizona".

 

Expecting Rain

(811 posts)
10. The atheist trope is patently untrue and so is the idea that...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 05:58 PM
Sep 2017

government-based emergency relief is Socialism.

So we have a total thread fail.

If one wanted to make the case that many conservatives argue for small government, except when it benefits themselves and are therefore hypocrites, it would be more like it.



Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #10)

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
115. Why not?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:03 PM
Sep 2017

You even admitted that you didn't believe it. Why is it so important to use this particular phrase that even you admit is false when others are telling you it is offensive?

By using it the entire point you were trying to make was sidelined, and it makes it seem as if you could not care less about promoting a meme that denies the very existence of people who risked (and in some cases lost) their very lives serving their country.

Why is this so important that you couldn't use an analogy that doesn't make its point at the expense of one of the most despised minorities in the country?

EDIT: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?

As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
120. The anology is made to convince Right Wingers in a discussion
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:13 PM
Sep 2017

It's analogy our opponents will understand, in their own language.

This OP has received 76 Recs, was on the front page and now stands at the 4 star greatest page.

That was not my intention. I just thought it was just a clever little saying and can be used, as I say, in discussions with Trump voters.

I believe more people understood it than didn't. I'm sure there was an alert sent on this, judging by some of the responses. The fact the OP is still here and was not locked demonstrates a "not guilty" finding.

I hope that you accept my explanation.

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
123. But this is not a right wing site
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:27 PM
Sep 2017

It is a liberal site, full of activists and minorities who have suffered because of statements like these.

Does the number of recs make it true or less offensive somehow? That just means the bias is so ingrained that many people will outright ignore it. Even other atheists this is nothing new. Polls show even atheists tend to be less trusting of other atheists. Which makes it even more important to stand up against these type of statements.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/04/16/new-study-shows-that-even-atheists-think-atheists-are-immoral/

As I put as an edit to the post you are replying to: in the end of your post you ask if the statement was too liberal for us. From that, I take it that you are a proud liberal. But, how is using an offensive statement against a minority group liberal? I thought liberals stood up for minorities and against such bigotries?

As a liberal, don't you oppose such things? As a nonbeliever can't you see why we are so offended and asking for a change? Especially for those who died in service of our country?

I am appealing to your understanding and compassion as a liberal, please reconsider and use another analogy!

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
125. Bingo. If a racist trope was used to make a point would it be acceptable?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:39 PM
Sep 2017

How about a homophobic stereotype, or a misogynistic one? I don't believe the op was being deliberately offensive but we all should try to avoid using offensive tropes here.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
165. My intenntion, in almost all of my posts
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:38 AM
Sep 2017

is to suggest arguments that DUers can use in discussions with those who disagree with us. This has been my purpose, on this site, since I've been here.

A little history. I'm a member since 2004 and have contributed every year for over ten years.

I don't come to this site just to just "preach to the choir" (I hope that phrase doesn't upset you, or force you to call me a "bigot&quot .

I use every day conversations, bring them to this site, and try to give some advice, and take some.

I know we are all of a like mind, relatively speaking. I know we challenge others outside of this site, every day, in their opinions, and we have ours challenged. We can learn from each other here at DU, so when we face similar situations, we can learn from each others experiences.

After all, our mission should be to change minds outside of this site, not stroke each others egos. That's the only way to make change in this country.

oasis

(49,108 posts)
168. No worries, FWIW, I get you. A French philosopher once wrote:
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:09 AM
Sep 2017

"If axes to grind didn't exist, it would become necessary to invent them"

lindysalsagal

(20,318 posts)
30. Lots of believers lose their faith in war. I also enjoy the admittance that people require
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:00 PM
Sep 2017

Near-death experiences in order to adopt a belief system. It's only legitimate when it does something for you, personally. The object of belief is merely a function of our fear of mortality: the object, god, or whatever carries no intrinsic value of it's own in normal circumstances. But then, there never was anything rational about faith, I suppose.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
35. See why we can't get anything done? Your point about republican/libertarian hypocrisy...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:12 PM
Sep 2017

is lost when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory.

More time spent in outrage over your comment than in outrage over the real problem.

Amazing.

leftstreet

(36,064 posts)
38. Could have been a win if it accused GOPers of making the stmt
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:14 PM
Sep 2017

Just as Republicans always say "there are no atheists..."

Ligyron

(7,574 posts)
82. Yes, he should change the first sentence
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:05 PM
Sep 2017

"Just as superstitious, science denying Republicans claim..."

Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #35)

Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #117)

Gore1FL

(20,993 posts)
180. Logically speaking, there is no point of the post.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:52 AM
Sep 2017

It would be like saying If 1 = 0 then then there is global warming.

The statement self-sabotages.

nini

(16,670 posts)
103. Exactly
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:59 PM
Sep 2017

Im so tired of constant outrage that gets in the way of discussing something.

Yes that phrase isnt true but the use of it helped make a point. I doubt the OP meant it as an insult.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
153. Thank you!
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:53 AM
Sep 2017

This is the shit that keeps us from getting anywhere. I am so tired of the perpetually outraged dragging us down and distracting us from the real problems we are facing.

nini

(16,670 posts)
194. It boggles the mind really
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:24 AM
Sep 2017

How something like the OP turns into a multi sub thread piss fest.

Any valid point gets lost in the hysteria.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
111. "when people were triggered into objecting to your allegory."
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:52 PM
Sep 2017

How dare people point out offencive statements!

More time is spent defending offence than listening to to those who are hurt.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
119. Offensive? And you wonder why people call liberals "snowflakes"? A lot more time here was spent...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:13 PM
Sep 2017

crying about the "offensive comment" than about the point of the comment.



Susan Calvin

(1,642 posts)
136. Well, if a comment starts from offensive, not to mention untrue,
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:35 PM
Sep 2017

I reserve the right to argue with the rest of it. Just how much am I expected to ignore?

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
138. Everything
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:41 PM
Sep 2017

Apparently the term "triggered" is a right wing word that somehow magically makes bigoted words and phrases okay and allows one to say whatever hateful thought that pops into their mind without criticism or consequence.

Snackshack

(2,540 posts)
42. Very True.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:23 PM
Sep 2017

Ted Cruz position on Sandy aid vs Harvey aid is a perfect example of this. I was glad to see the media call him out on it.

stopbush

(24,366 posts)
46. Actually, there are nothing but atheists in foxholes.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:28 PM
Sep 2017

If there were any true believers, they'd believe their god would keep them safe, even if they decided to get out of the foxhole and walk straight into enemy fire.

The fact that they don't believe a god will keep them safe shows they don't believe in god.

trof

(54,255 posts)
62. BAM! Hell yeah!
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:35 PM
Sep 2017

If you're a TRUE BELIEVER why you'll just stand right up and walk into that machine gun nest KNOWING THAT

1. Because you are protected by your god you'll be unharmed, or...

2. If your god SHOULD decide that He wants to call you home you'll go directly to heaven and a paradise beyond your wildest dreams.

Win-Win, either way.
Where's the flaw in my reasoning?

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
109. I'm not sure who told you a belief in God grants physical invulnerability...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:47 PM
Sep 2017

Pretty stupid premise. Then again, so was the OP.

stopbush

(24,366 posts)
191. Isaiah 54:17
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:18 AM
Sep 2017

“No weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
and this is their vindication from me,”
declares the Lord.

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
193. The day I meet actually meet an old testament adhering literalist, I'll let them know they can cross
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:22 AM
Sep 2017

the street without looking both directions.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
113. Kurt Vonnegut (another atheist in a foxhole) wrote in Hocus Pocus
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:56 PM
Sep 2017

"The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, "There's a Chaplain who never visited the front.""

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
52. Aphorism.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:30 PM
Sep 2017

"A pithy observation that contains a general truth, such as, “If it ain't broke, don't fix it.”

Another example: "There are no atheists in a fox hole."

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

Response to yallerdawg (Reply #52)

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
112. You seem really upset
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:56 PM
Sep 2017

when people are pointing out how offencive the OP is.


If you wanted to help the situation you could listen instead of silencing.

Iggo

(47,470 posts)
181. That's bullshit.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:21 AM
Sep 2017

"There are no atheists in foxholes" means "There are no atheists, because when the shit hits the fan, everyone's a believer ."

Stop digging.

askyagerz

(776 posts)
64. The p.c. here kills me
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:37 PM
Sep 2017

I doubt many of you would make it through a episode of Tosh.0. As an atheist I find no offense here. It's an old saying and I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks its 100% true. Sometimes when you're offended you should just change the channel. Gotta pick your battles when you live in a country of free speech

kag

(4,075 posts)
80. Careful.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:58 PM
Sep 2017

I tried making the same point, and I'm getting hammered by the p.c. snowflakes too.

Good luck.

askyagerz

(776 posts)
88. Haha no worries I'm good at dodging rocks
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:20 PM
Sep 2017

P.C. police definitely hurt the progressive cause more then they help. We are all adults here. We don't need our wrists slapped. We know exactly what we are saying...
If you can't laugh at how silly the human race is sometimes then what's the point?

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
154. +1000
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:56 AM
Sep 2017

I can't remember the last time I have seen such hypersensitive ridiculousness on this board. And I'm an Athiest.

askyagerz

(776 posts)
198. Stuff like this is why Dems don't rule the world
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:06 PM
Sep 2017

If the average independent voter was to read these responses they would just roll their eyes. Like a bunch of little kids bickering back and forth. Being that P.C. is basically no different then telling someone you know better then them and no one wants to hear that shit. Sorry fellow DUers no one has all the answers. Stop trying to censor the words coming out of my mouth

kag

(4,075 posts)
65. Wow. It's too bad that your excellent point is being lost on people who...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:39 PM
Sep 2017

are apparently being triggered because they think you're insulting us atheists. As a committed atheist I find your observation quite insightful.

I watched Ted Cruz attempt some ethical gymnastics to justify his heartless vote against Sandy aide and his desperate appeal for Harvey aide. No matter his religion (or lack thereof) I suspect the only thing Ted Cruz would be praying for in a foxhole is toilet paper.

It's too bad that people can't get over your use of an analogous and common turn of phrase in order to debate the actual intent of your post. I, for one, think it was spot on.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
68. triggered? Its a shitty analogy- and not true. Like attributing that "Definition of Insanity" quote
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:44 PM
Sep 2017

to Einstein, when it actually comes from a Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet.

I get it, people love these dopey double-digit IQ sayings, even when they're flat-out false. "You can't drive a car to Denver!" "It only snows on people who ski"

 

Expecting Rain

(811 posts)
70. What excellent points?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:48 PM
Sep 2017

The line about atheists is offensive and untrue. And the second part—that government relief efforts are Socialism—isn't true either.

Are so-called small government conservative hypocritical when they hate government expenditures except when they are the beneficiaries? Heck yeah.

But that's got nothing to do with either atheism or socialism.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
75. Holy crap--I was wondering what was going on with this thread.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:55 PM
Sep 2017

Hilarious.

I will take your point as I believe you intended. It's a good one.

Not sure those comparing atheism to various religions is being philosophically consistent ala "A faith/Not a faith arguments" I see bruited about here and there, but I'll give the benefit of a doubt, as I also don't care.

Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #75)

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
83. I do and I'm sure his family does as well.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:06 PM
Sep 2017

It's not all that surprising, you see the same attitude when people who object to racist, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic stereotypes are dismissed as being hypersensitive, easily 'triggered', etc. See it's the people in those groups who are to blame for all the rancor. If only they would sit down and be quiet.

Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #83)

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
87. Hey at least we're not the most hated religious minority in America anymore.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:16 PM
Sep 2017

According to Pew it's Muslims now, we got bumped down into the #2 spot.

Atheists Open Gap Against Muslims For Title of Most Hated Religious Group in America

WE'RE NUMBER TWO! WE'RE NUMBER TWO!

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
102. You don't think you're over-reacting a teensy little bit?
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:52 PM
Sep 2017

As well as missing the point of the OP? I mean all this indignation is at the least, interesting, but damn.

And yeah. I got two kids who served;one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq, and a SIL who was in special forces, so I know a little bit about military life. I never got the impression that those in the field give a shit about your religion--or lack of one. I do understand how awkward and frustrating it is for atheists to be surrounded by religion.

Most people I interact with are various shades of agnostic, as am I. The militantly atheist I know personally, are usually damaged in some way, so they end up with these obnoxious personalities kind of like Libertarians or MRA's or the overly-religious.

Behind the Aegis

(53,792 posts)
104. Food for thought.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:04 PM
Sep 2017

You know I have a great deal of respect for you, but I want you to think about something: Would you ever tell a gay person, especially since you are not lesbian or bisexual, we were "over reacting" to something we perceived as an insult? I don't think you would. This is really no different. It isn't a matter of agreeing, but understanding the POV of someone with whom you don't share a status. It wasn't too long ago, that GLBT people here at DU were told to "suck it up", "get over it", "the ends justify the means" when it came to using homophobia against the right, especially the "president". It comes down to a matter of respect. I don't think Warren or others in this thread who are objecting to this phrase (and I add my non-atheist voice to said objections) are over-reacting, they are trying to get people to understand their point of view and they nor their POV should be mocked, derided, or otherwise be dismissed. One doesn't have to agree, nor does it mean the point of the OP is being missed, it simply means we can do better by using phrases which aren't bigoted or simply not true in order to make a point.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
105. I think that's the part that caused me to reply in the first place
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:22 PM
Sep 2017

I opened the thread trying to figure out what the ruckus was, with all the replies.

Atheism is the lack of religious beliefs. It's not faith based, it's not an opinion, it's a way of thinking, and one I understand very well. I used to be one before theoretical physics for dummies type books were written.

While historically atheists have certainly lost their lives for daring to think, I have a hard time equating it to being Gay in America today, or being, say Muslim.

I find vehement reactions to an old idiom, rather than a reasoned response, although those came later in the thread.

But I do take your point. I find the entire thread progression a bit odd, and probably one I should stay out of, and I may shoot across the bow now and again, I'm not interested in causing actual pain with my words.



Lars39

(26,088 posts)
108. With a church on every corner here in a red state,
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:45 PM
Sep 2017

where the "where do you go to church at" is standard in first meeting small talk, i can guarantee that there are people who cannot freely state that they are atheist. Firings can and do occur, especially in "right to work" states.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
141. Appreciate your post, especially the proper usage
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:56 PM
Sep 2017

of the word atheist... lower case as in "I'm atheist". Being atheist is not an opinion, it's a way of thinking... bravo. I usually say being atheist is not an idea, it's the condition of being non-theist. If you belong to The Church of Atheism you can say "I am an Atheist". Most of us don't go to an Atheist church... so I'm atheist.
I'm off topic but thanks.

Mariana

(14,830 posts)
190. Vehement responses? You mean to the OP?
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:16 AM
Sep 2017

I wish you'd point them out. I see mostly polite requests and explanations. I also see those who objected, no matter how nicely they did it, being ridiculed and called names. There are certainly some "vehement responses" to those posts.

Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #102)

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
151. Me too. I've been called 'damaged' and a 'militant' feminist before.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:49 AM
Sep 2017

Funny how some talking points never seem to go out of style.

I finally decided to wear 'militant' as a badge of honor.

I am a militant liberal, feminist, atheist and Star Trek enthusiast. Not necessarily in that order.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
172. Lord in heaven WD
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:49 AM
Sep 2017

(Pun intended) I didn't call YOU damaged. It's a personal observation. I know a ton of people from many different places, including activist atheists. And yeah--they're a little screwy.

I don't know you from a can of paint in the road, aside from a discussion board. You could be the veritable picture of mental health and personal stability for all I know.

Calm down, calm down--it's ok. It's OK. I get your point. I just thought the entire thread devolved into a ridiculous argument and it puzzled me. I don't use the saying either, its antiquated, but I think the OP is trying to make a broader point

I'm agnostic the way Neil DeGrasse Tyson is agnostic. Hardly muddled thinking.


Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #172)

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
196. You are, of course, on the right side of this argument.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:41 AM
Sep 2017

I stop being astonished at people who fail to acknowledge double standards a long time ago, but it's truly sad that folks can't check their egos and admit that there is more than just a slight associated with this ignorant trope. How can they possibly not see that non-believers deserve the same respect as racial minorities, LGBT folks etc.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
78. Your messaging is off, but your sentiment is right on
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 07:56 PM
Sep 2017

I'm sure even all of the atheists here agree with the sentiment.

Just for explanation, though, and I promise I mean no criticism: "atheism" is one of the major categories that people are bigoted against. Not as major as race or sex, but high up in the rankings. Weirdly high. Most higher than religious people would realize. It's kind of an invisible prejudice.

I've lost close friends when I mentioned my atheism. I was subject to a formal disciplinary hearing at my government job based on accusations of witchcraft (sorry, sometimes autocorrect suggests "witchcraft" instead of "atheism&quot ; they interviewed TWO HUNDRED children and I have the transcripts to prove it. I've had to pay thousands to a lawyer to prove my capacity as a parent because I was "non religious." I live for n a major West Coast city, not the Bible Belt.

I swear I've got a sense of humor; I'm just trying to explain why some of us get testy over common tropes.

Response to Nevernose (Reply #78)

shadowmayor

(1,325 posts)
199. For what it's worth WD
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:35 PM
Sep 2017

Actually, atheists are often made in foxholes. When I was in the "foxhole" or mortar bunkers with my fellow soldiers, we would have discussions about this idea all the time. Afterwards, when folks were bleeding or dead, I'd ask the believers if they truly thought that they had been spared by their prayers while others around them were "taken"? Confusion usually was the first reaction.

Kinda like the guy who scores a touchdown and thanks god. What about the guy who's job it was to stop him from scoring who prays to the same? Did god make a choice, or is the guy celebrating being selfish? The way folks dance around these inconsistencies has always been amusing to me.

kag

(4,075 posts)
86. I appreciate your rather more measured response here...
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:14 PM
Sep 2017

compared to some of the more testy ones, but frankly I think the OP's messaging is perfectly fitting.

Of course the very old trope about there being "no atheists in foxholes" is untrue, and it is for precisely that reason that it works so well in this case--because the only people for whom that saying, or the new one proposed by the OP about socialists and disasters, is true are those with no ethical or moral conviction like Ted Cruz.

That said, I do understand your complaint, I just don't agree with it. And I believe we can still be friends.

Towlie

(5,305 posts)
92. Lesson: An analogy can distract from your point if the veracity of your analogy is controversial.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 08:29 PM
Sep 2017

I just made the same mistake myself on another forum under another alias. I presented an argument that something was bad and then unwisely added that it was sort of like something else that was bad. The discussion got badly sidetracked by people who complained that the other thing wasn't bad.

But I agree with your point, which in essence is that a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, should be expected to care about the people.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
106. 75 Recs at 9:35 PM 9-3-17
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 09:36 PM
Sep 2017

Excuse me if I don't take your advice.

Looks like it got somebody's attention and they agreed.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
126. Some people rec the argument. It's not always the OP
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 10:55 PM
Sep 2017

itself that is being recommended but the content of the thread.

Sorry.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
164. That's your opinion
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:27 AM
Sep 2017

I never Rec an OP I don't agree with 100%.

That's my opinion.

by the way, the recs are up to 93.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
174. So if lots of people agree with you, then its ok to say something that offends people?
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:02 AM
Sep 2017

Isn't this Trump's position?

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
185. Nearly everything that is debated by anyone, offends someone
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 10:32 AM
Sep 2017

If my position was Trump's position, I'm sure this OP would have been locked.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
197. I wasn't going to post in this thread..
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:45 AM
Sep 2017

Because its all getting heated and I don't think you wanted to provoke any kind of negative reaction like this. Despite being someone whose very far from being a 'snowflake' though, I must admit it did piss me off.

I can understand you not thinking its a big deal (and it probably isn't) but when quite a few people get annoyed by it, just telling them 'well it got lots of recs' is a bit of an offhand way to brush them off.

Mariana

(14,830 posts)
215. Maybe it wasn't intentional.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:09 PM
Sep 2017

But, louis c has been here a long time. Anyone who's been on the DU for that long almost certainly knows the following:

1: The saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a lie, and
2. That saying annoys some DUers, precisely because it's a lie. In some cases, it's a lie about them or their loved ones.

Even if he didn't know it before, he surely knows it now. Most of the requests to remove the lie in the OP have been polite. Many of the posters responding to those polite requests have engaged in ridicule and namecalling. Louis c sees this perfectly well, and has decided to leave the lie in place.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
247. It's a time worn statement
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 05:46 PM
Sep 2017

Come on

If an atheist sneezes and I say God Bless You, should the sneezer take it as an insult?

If we act like this about a statement like that, how in the hell are we going to hold our own in debates against hard line right wingers? We'll look like fools.

As a matter of fact, I had no idea that phrase would offend anyone. The intent is to use it in a debate against the other side. I have been here a long time, since 2004. I contribute financially (albeit, a small donation) to this site and read it every day.

If the offended parties to "there are no atheists in fox holes" are that sensitive, I sure wouldn't want them out there with me while I'm debating hard liners.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
140. OP was turning a (fake) cliche on on its ear.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:49 PM
Sep 2017

He set up that shopworn expression to knock it down with some truth.

I'm an atheist, and I'm not offended in the least

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
173. uh no the op did no such thing.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:49 AM
Sep 2017

He was not knocking down the stupid bigoted and false "no atheists in foxholes" aphorism, he was making an analogy to it with his second aphorism "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".


Just as "There are no atheists in a fox hole" it turns out that "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".


If the op was "knocking down" the first then the op was also falsifying the second. In that case the op would make no sense at all, as he goes on to say:


All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states.

All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

How about we help everyone who needs it, all the time.

What's the matter, too liberal for ya?


So no, your splain is nonsense.
 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
195. I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:25 AM
Sep 2017

just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.

But I'm also sure that there are very few Right Wing Atheists. So, the subject line is a suggestion of how to get our opponents attention to drive home a point.

Now, I certainly didn't explain it in the OP. At least 100 DUers understood my point and a few didn't.

Are the critics here offended if a co-worker says "God Bless You" when you sneeze? Or leave out "under God" in the pledge of allegiance? or refuse to sing God Bless America at a left wing event, such as a union or a Dem Convention? or refuse to attend a church wedding for a sibling or a church funeral for a parent?

Come on, get with it. Don't make the Perfect the enemy of the Good.

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
212. So if I understand your latest explanation
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:57 PM
Sep 2017

195. I'm sure there are atheists in fox holes
just as I'm sure there are people in disaster area that still want small government, even at they're own peril.


An atheist in a foxhole would be equivalent to people in a disaster area who still want small government.

Have I misrepresented your position?

If not are you being intentionally insulting to atheists or are you completely oblivious to the implications of what you wrote?
 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
214. To those who believe the statements.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:03 PM
Sep 2017

You conveniently leave out the fact that the subject line is to be used against right wingers, because it strikes to the heart of their beliefs.

Again, I am an Atheist.

145 recs. Over 200 replies.

It seems as though a tremendous number of DUers get the point, even if you don't.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
257. You don't convince but you do spend most of your time
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 12:35 AM
Sep 2017

flattering yourself it seems. If all you have are replies and recs to bolster your point you must be feeling under some pressure to prove it. You should. Considerably more than half the replies are negative toward your position either in part or completely dismissing it. Many of the recs are DUrs that like to push against atheists whenever they get the chance. Many others are rec'ing because they are supporting Warren's argument since it's a worthy and necessary position to argue.

As far as claiming to be atheist, just the fact that you keep repeating, "I am an Atheist" shows you don't really know what atheist means, you don't have a reasonable grasp of the language, or you're not atheist at all. When you say, "I am an Atheist" you are saying you belong to some organized religion, church, sect, or a named group.. Do you? Maybe, The Church of Atheism or the like? You either do or you don't know what you're talking about. If you're trying to say that you don't believe in a deity then you should be saying, "I am atheist". No capital A, no an, just I am non-theist... atheist.

But go ahead, flatter yourself if it makes you feel better. Or maybe try some of that "always doing good for people" stuff that you tout but so far show no sign of actually being able to do.

Don't be hard on yourself though... I also rec'd your OP.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
260. Most of the negative replies are from the same people
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 06:38 AM
Sep 2017

And a rec doesn't need to reply.

It's a matter of opinion on whether or not you should feel offended. The fact that someone is offended is not in question. I can't help how someone "feels".

That certainly was not my intention. But if we are going to stand up to the real political enemies that threaten this country, we better have thicker skin than has been displayed here by some DUers.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
267. Well I'll hand you this....
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 05:02 PM
Sep 2017

It did turn out to be a hell of a thread! Although I do think the message you meant to make got lost in a flurry of resonance for whatever reason.

If you were to take another stab at making your point, would you do it differently? I don't mean change your present post or go back in time, I just mean would you do it again a different way? Just curious, I'm not saving any cards.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
268. No.
Tue Sep 5, 2017, 08:49 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 10:27 AM - Edit history (1)

I really don't think the fox hole thing should be offensive. I'm an Atheist, but by no means do I lead that into any political discussion.

Atheism, to me, is basically no religion. If someone, in a personal conversation, says, "what religion are you?", I don't say "Atheist". I reply "I'm not religious", and leave it at that.

I try to convert people to join unions, vote Democratic, or stand up for Liberal ideals.

Wearing Atheism on your sleeve will shut you out of the other discussions in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.

It would be different if I wanted to convert my fellow man to Atheism, but it's just a belief (or non-belief system) to me. I don't care if I'm the only Atheist in the world, or everyone is. Politics and Unionism are my passion. Those are the converts I want to make. Maybe I thought that all Atheists felt that way. I have never met anyone who tried to convert people to Atheism.

But, to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have made my point differently. As a matter of fact, I came up with this phrase and was using it for 3 days and everyone I know got a kick out of it, understood the point, and was using it with Trumpsters they knew.

It seemed so effective, that I thought I'd share it here.

Response to NurseJackie (Reply #171)

Response to NurseJackie (Reply #235)

Response to NurseJackie (Reply #243)

LakeArenal

(28,673 posts)
188. This "conversation" over atheists in a fox hole...
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:01 AM
Sep 2017

rather than Repunks being hypocrites is stealing this thread and changing the focus of the main point.

If you want to have a convo about tired trite clichés please start your own thread.

This is supposed to be a discussion about what Government should be doing for the people in the US...

LostOne4Ever

(9,262 posts)
208. If you want a conversation about repukes being hypocrites...
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 02:13 PM
Sep 2017
Don't do it by invoking a bigoted statement!

If a racist phrase had been used to prop up this failed analogy (say insulting the Tuskegee airmen) this post would have gotten hidden.

If you don't like the direction this thread turned, convince the OP to remove the part about atheists or create a new thread and don't use a bigoted cliche.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
189. Your point is excellent and I agree with it
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:13 AM
Sep 2017

If people would stop being deeply offended all the time about minutae maybe your suggestion might work. And I'm an atheist! I'm just not a kneejerk reactionary one in a constant defensive grouch.

ariadne0614

(1,679 posts)
192. Sometimes it feels like. . .
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 11:20 AM
Sep 2017

. . .we're all sharing a foxhole these days, thanks to Trump & Company. After reading the entire thread and seeing valid, well-meaning arguments on both sides, I do have some concerns about our chances for survival. Also, as a radicalized feminist, I hope that if I ever dig in my heels and object to the casual sexism that appears on DU here and there, I will take the lessons of this thread into battle.

orleans

(33,949 posts)
200. "Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:35 PM
Sep 2017

"Everyone's a Socialist during a natural disaster".

I GOT YOUR POINT.

(i can't believe this thread)

"All these anti-government Conservative Republicans turn to the Government when they have a natural disaster in their states."

"All the rest of the time, the rest of us can go fuck ourselves. "

(maybe let's try this again and simplify it)

Progressive dog

(6,854 posts)
203. Neither statement is true,
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 12:50 PM
Sep 2017

foxholes don't turn atheists into believers and government aid for disasters doesn't require a belief that government should own the means of production.

TrogL

(32,818 posts)
205. I've been in foxholes. I don't recollect any conversations about religion or spirituality.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:17 PM
Sep 2017

During an actual (ok, fake) attack the conversation tended towards coprofelia and coitus as in...

"Shit, shit, shit, shit oh fuck me where's my helmet."

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
206. To be honest this is the first time
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 01:29 PM
Sep 2017

I have heard that saying. I'm an atheist, but your thread does not offend me since I understood the point you made. 136 recs and counting. I'm amazed at all of the complaining in this thread. Someone even tried to get this topic removed?

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
221. It's not even a "liberal" concept. It's common sense and essential to the survival of our species.
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 03:54 PM
Sep 2017

An excellent free online book by anarchist-communist, Peter Kropotkin, is Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution.

Wikipedia:

Kropotkin pointed out the distinction between the direct struggle among individuals for limited resources (generally called competition) and the more metaphorical struggle between organisms and the environment (tending to be cooperative). He therefore did not deny the competitive form of struggle, but argued that the cooperative counterpart has been underemphasized: "There is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species; there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defense...Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle."
- emphasis mine

keithbvadu2

(36,305 posts)
226. As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out. They want othe
Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:31 PM
Sep 2017

As Raphael Cruz shows, Texans are fiercely independent, with their begging hand out.

They want others to stand on their own two feet, pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Response to louis c (Original post)

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