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Bluepinky

(2,250 posts)
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:04 AM Sep 2017

There is a double standard on DU.

I thought that posters aren't allowed to denigrate Bernie Sanders, who caucuses with Democrats and, as a Democratic Socialist, is considered one of us. But time and time again, I see insulting comments about Bernie. If Hillary is beyond reproach on DU, Bernie should be too.

149 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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There is a double standard on DU. (Original Post) Bluepinky Sep 2017 OP
Really? Wounded Bear Sep 2017 #1
I laughed, I cried, I bought the shirt (again) Blue_Adept Sep 2017 #2
+1 BannonsLiver Sep 2017 #19
Reminder: The Trash Can Feature is your Friend sagesnow Sep 2017 #33
I hear you tymorial Sep 2017 #39
Excellent advice .... LenaBaby61 Sep 2017 #59
Thanks for the reminder MFM008 Sep 2017 #76
Thanks -- I had forgotten about the Trash Can. nt NCjack Sep 2017 #69
That's normally the first thing I do after logging in-- janx Sep 2017 #71
The problem is that people bring it into entirely unrelated threads Blue_Adept Sep 2017 #88
We all choose what to click on IronLionZion Sep 2017 #60
You are correct, Ms. Toad Sep 2017 #3
You might want to delete before this is alerted on. femmocrat Sep 2017 #4
How? Ken Burch Sep 2017 #85
Sorry, I posted in the wrong place. femmocrat Sep 2017 #104
You have options JustAnotherGen Sep 2017 #5
I'm going with the ignore OP option. Corvo Bianco Sep 2017 #78
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #6
I approve of this message! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #7
I absolutely love talking about Bernie. It is my absolutely favorite topic. Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #9
Heck I think I am numero uno fan! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #10
Bernie brought new people & was excellenter @ uniting w DEMS in time for the election! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #11
I promise I will never ever forget the great job he did at this. We owe the world to him! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #12
Woohoo! I am on a roll. He just gets me going! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #13
In the meantime let's not forget how selflessly he sacrifices himself. I could cry @ this moment. Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #16
I love his speech, I could say it from memory. Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #18
What you said in your subthread. Bigly Hekate Sep 2017 #41
Thank you! I dedicate to Bernie. I love him as much as he loves us DEMS! Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #54
LOL. treestar Sep 2017 #48
Um.. okaaaay.. May I ask who you voted for in the primary? vkkv Sep 2017 #61
ding ding ding...we have a winner! LiberalLovinLug Sep 2017 #70
Look at you. Control-Z Sep 2017 #92
Well said, Madam! NastyRiffraff Sep 2017 #98
I agree with EVERY one of your posts here, indeed. Just wish I could punctuate my agreement.... George II Sep 2017 #148
Isn't it awesome? I feel absolutely and totally the same about Hillary! Autumn Sep 2017 #35
I totally agree. sellitman Sep 2017 #138
Exactly! Hillary wouldn't be president if not for him. grossproffit Sep 2017 #31
You must, must & must love him. It's the mustest must of any must in this universe thru & 4 eternity Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #32
Get a room, you two! greatauntoftriplets Sep 2017 #34
LOL! ...but seriously am not pure enough. Madam45for2923 Sep 2017 #53
Join the club! greatauntoftriplets Sep 2017 #55
I'm not pure enough either :( :( :( :( :( :( :( JHan Sep 2017 #90
There's a fine line. Igel Sep 2017 #8
It's a word that I avoid using because of its connotations, lapucelle Sep 2017 #110
I auto-hide all OPs with the words "Bernie" and "Sanders" in them. yardwork Sep 2017 #14
+1000 stonecutter357 Sep 2017 #125
+1,000,000 George II Sep 2017 #149
If some people didn't have double standards... sarisataka Sep 2017 #15
Seriously? left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #65
I didn't say sarisataka Sep 2017 #66
Seriously? lunamagica Sep 2017 #91
I assume you're joking angrychair Sep 2017 #99
Yep left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #107
Personally melman Sep 2017 #17
Please see my post 2 in this thread: murielm99 Sep 2017 #49
You know perfectly well who it is melman Sep 2017 #51
And btw melman Sep 2017 #56
I did not accuse you murielm99 Sep 2017 #58
Thanks for this JustAnotherGen Sep 2017 #136
Would it get a bunch of people yelling at you, and would it get you Ninsianna Sep 2017 #119
It's not a double standard. One person became our nominee and our party leader. Hortensis Sep 2017 #122
Exactly. Since when does even the mildest of criticism of policy or procedure Ninsianna Sep 2017 #123
Yes. Repubs and Russians are pushing "division" as a big fake news story. Hortensis Sep 2017 #127
This is such a reasonable post. murielm99 Sep 2017 #146
True. It's imperative we get beyond this however. 2018 is upon us Arazi Sep 2017 #20
You are right. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #86
Some of them are but... mdbl Sep 2017 #126
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #21
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author QC Sep 2017 #40
Disagreement is not denigration. MineralMan Sep 2017 #22
True Roy Rolling Sep 2017 #24
The thing about DU and all other open discussion forums MineralMan Sep 2017 #28
I've been avoiding DU lately because it seems mired in the past. Vinca Sep 2017 #25
Sanders isn't a Democrat... Orsino Sep 2017 #26
Perhaps you missed what the site's owner had to say about that melman Sep 2017 #29
The year got chopped off your screen-cap. Was that August of last year, or August of this year? Hekate Sep 2017 #43
This year melman Sep 2017 #44
Frankly, you shouldn't even need to be asking about a specific post Jim Lane Sep 2017 #77
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #114
Please elucidate Jim Lane Sep 2017 #116
This message was self-deleted by its author sheshe2 Sep 2017 #118
Bernie himself has said that he is not a Democrat oberliner Sep 2017 #96
Jonathan Capehart put it so well this morning on AM Joy: George II Sep 2017 #46
Capehart should certainly be held in high regard as it pertains to objective non-hackery about JCanete Sep 2017 #67
Well, he's certainly no H.A. Goodman who was held to such objective high standards. Ninsianna Sep 2017 #124
I actually know nothing about H A Goodman except that people here sometimes invoke the person, JCanete Sep 2017 #147
... mcar Sep 2017 #27
Sometimes they get removed, because they can be removed according to the TOS. JCanete Sep 2017 #30
Why, oh why, can't this be a more pleasant place? yallerdawg Sep 2017 #36
It makes zero sense to me that he's so reluctant to be a Democrat. Bleacher Creature Sep 2017 #37
I look at it as that Sanders is way more valuable to the Democratic Party staying an I LiberalLovinLug Sep 2017 #62
TOS allows constructive criticism, not mindless lies or bashing emulatorloo Sep 2017 #38
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #42
On second thought, this reply hurts more than helps. Iggo Sep 2017 #45
There isn't a double standard treestar Sep 2017 #47
"there is plenty of Hillary bashing" left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #68
Are you serious? treestar Sep 2017 #74
if you find that assertion ridiculous Skittles Sep 2017 #81
I'm kinda shocked that you aren't aware of this. emulatorloo Sep 2017 #84
Yes, seriously mcar Sep 2017 #89
My experience of posts removed and failed alerts says there IS a double standard. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #80
Hillary's supporters will observe the opposite treestar Sep 2017 #102
Fine, keep telling yourself that it's all just a matter of perception. (n/t) Jim Lane Sep 2017 #111
It is treestar Sep 2017 #129
Wrong. betsuni Sep 2017 #130
I have not seen any vicious attacks on Sen. Sanders. If I were on a jury, and saw that, I would Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #133
I use Auto-trash by Keyword and i don't know how this OP made it past it... stonecutter357 Sep 2017 #50
MRW I see a Bernie-vs-Hillary flamewar thread... backscatter712 Sep 2017 #52
That rule doesn't mean that bernie gets a blank check for life. What he says and does NOW Lil Missy Sep 2017 #57
Which should be the same for HRC. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #87
Yeah, I agree left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #63
Remember the "2016 Election Postmortem" Forum? red dog 1 Sep 2017 #64
Bluepinky, please elaborate more on this. NBachers Sep 2017 #72
Hopefully the next Democratic nominee will be someone like Elizabeth Warren who most at DU Quixote1818 Sep 2017 #73
It would, Elizabeth is a Democrat and a progressive we can get behind. redstatebluegirl Sep 2017 #75
She is my Senator. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #115
Any woman in the arena will probably be found lacking by the MSM. lapucelle Sep 2017 #132
don't be so sure. many who claimed to want her to run said some disgusting fucked up JI7 Sep 2017 #120
Hillary is far from "beyond reproach" around here. NYC Liberal Sep 2017 #79
Anyone can freely criticize anyone, no matter what their party identificaion is, on issues still_one Sep 2017 #82
Think of it this way: A double standard is a big improvement over the triple standard we had before. Binkie The Clown Sep 2017 #83
There is a double standard Trumpocalypse Sep 2017 #93
A double standard expressly violates the TOS. Ms. Toad Sep 2017 #97
But does it apply when Trumpocalypse Sep 2017 #135
If he comes on DU and bashes them, yes. n/t Ms. Toad Sep 2017 #142
If Bernie joins the party instead of pissing on it Blue_Tires Sep 2017 #94
Never fear lillypaddle Sep 2017 #95
There are two kinds of people on DU. kwassa Sep 2017 #100
I like Signs too...however, I don't believe in any one person...I am not a follower of anyone. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #134
Tell it to the Admins. Oh, wait; you left long ago. Watch out for the Billy-goats! WinkyDink Sep 2017 #101
Guess I was wrong! femmocrat Sep 2017 #103
Nevermind. Thought this was going to be about stereotyping groups. ProgressiveValue Sep 2017 #105
Agree. ananda Sep 2017 #106
I was kicked out of the Bernie Group for a while last year. Turbineguy Sep 2017 #108
Well Hillary is a registered Democrat krawhitham Sep 2017 #109
In light of the ToS, what difference does that make? (n/t) Jim Lane Sep 2017 #112
Yes. I see dissing of zentrum Sep 2017 #113
Well, ideally, neither Bernie, whom I strongly supported, nor Hillary should ever be PatrickforO Sep 2017 #117
The specific actions of either one can be criticized - that's different from slamming them as people pnwmom Sep 2017 #121
Double standard alicenuffer Sep 2017 #128
In Opposite World, not in this one. betsuni Sep 2017 #131
True! n/t USALiberal Sep 2017 #137
No, there isn't nt Progressive dog Sep 2017 #139
It's probably a good thing I am "restrained" from saying what I really think about Hillary Clinton m-lekktor Sep 2017 #140
I have all of Bill and Hillary's books, including Buddy's and Sock's books. Autumn Sep 2017 #145
It's instructive that some people still ENDORSE a double standard Jim Lane Sep 2017 #141
It is not just Bernie upon whom it is open season on DU . . FairWinds Sep 2017 #143
Hello? I'm a proud member of the Democratic Party DownriverDem Sep 2017 #144

BannonsLiver

(16,042 posts)
19. +1
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:32 AM
Sep 2017

It's like that old bit from Bill Hicks or San Kinison about a toothache you can't stop touching with your tongue.

sagesnow

(2,820 posts)
33. Reminder: The Trash Can Feature is your Friend
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:17 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:56 PM - Edit history (1)

If you don't want to see Bernie or Hillary threads, go to My Account and open the Trash Can tab (near the top). Then put in Bernie, Hlllary, BERNIE, CLINTON, and all possible variations of their names, in the entry fields. Also put in Bernie, or Hillary, with the comma after it or some posts will get through. Blocking these repetitive posts saves a lot of needless irritation.

I also recommend putting posters who frequently post inflaming posts on your ignore list.
Go to My account and select the Ignore List tab. Enter names of posters who get on your last nerve.

Edited to fix syntax as I may copy and repaste this the next time people complain about the continuing
100 Year War.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
39. I hear you
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:34 PM
Sep 2017

But I trash so much that my virtual carbon footprint is through the roof. It's gotten to the point that I may have to start utilizing the ignore feature because I'm tired of seeing the same things over and over and over again.

LenaBaby61

(6,942 posts)
59. Excellent advice ....
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:18 PM
Sep 2017
If you don't want to see Bernie or Hillary threads, go to My Account and open the Trash can thread. Then put in all variations of Bernie, Hlllary, BERNIE, CLINTON, and all possible variations in the entry fields. Also put in Bernie, or Hillary with the comma after it or some posts will get through. Blocking these repetitive posts saves a lot of needless irritation.

I also recommend putting posters who frequently post inflaming posts on your ignore list.
Go to My account and select Ignore List. Enter names of posters who get on your last nerve.


janx

(24,128 posts)
71. That's normally the first thing I do after logging in--
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:58 PM
Sep 2017

I trash all Bernie/Hillary threads in GD.

Blue_Adept

(6,378 posts)
88. The problem is that people bring it into entirely unrelated threads
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 03:10 PM
Sep 2017

You could be discussing topic A and then suddenly further down the line it becomes a BvH topic that dominates all the replies when it was almost entirely unrelated.

Ms. Toad

(33,777 posts)
3. You are correct,
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:09 AM
Sep 2017

but people ignore the rule all the time - both in what they post, and in serving on juries (Despite being presented with the relevant portion of the TOS each time they agree to serve on a jury for bashing Democratic public figures.)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
85. How?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:56 PM
Sep 2017

Is it against the rules to say that Democratic public figures(and you are a Democratic public figure if you're in the Senate Democratic leadership)should not be trashed?

JustAnotherGen

(31,508 posts)
5. You have options
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:15 AM
Sep 2017

1. Trash this thread
2. Trash a keyword
3. Block posters you disagree with
4. Move onto the next thread
5. Defend your position

If those won't work - then post your OP in ATA.

Response to Bluepinky (Original post)

 

Madam45for2923

(7,178 posts)
7. I approve of this message!
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:19 AM
Sep 2017

6. Bernie caucuses with the DEMS and he wishes us DEMS well, and wants to unify DEMS.
View profile
He is the best most sincerest DEM Friend of them all! Plus he knows what he is talking about and is very good at explaining it all.

Super smart guy that he is.

Plus he did great last year unifying DEMS in time for election.

We ought to follow him wherever he may go & whatever ideas he comes up with, especially he can explain so greatly.

His ideas are the best!

Absolutely and totally.

 

Madam45for2923

(7,178 posts)
16. In the meantime let's not forget how selflessly he sacrifices himself. I could cry @ this moment.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:28 AM
Sep 2017

No one such a great human being like him.

Control-Z

(15,681 posts)
92. Look at you.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 04:16 PM
Sep 2017

Showing your love for a candidate in honest and fact based terms. I approve of your approval!! Especially the part about loving him as much he loves us (Democrats).

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
98. Well said, Madam!
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:09 PM
Sep 2017

I'm glad to see someone FINALLY RECOGNIZE the awesomeness of Bernie Sanders. He's the Best Senator Ever! I'm going to get a Bernie Sanders medal made and wear it as a pendant!

George II

(67,782 posts)
148. I agree with EVERY one of your posts here, indeed. Just wish I could punctuate my agreement....
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:45 PM
Sep 2017

....with a little pointing and conducting for extra flair!

sellitman

(11,585 posts)
138. I totally agree.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:45 AM
Sep 2017

I block Twitter followers who beat on Bernie & Hillary.

We have bigger fish to fry. No need for a circular firing squad.

Igel

(35,100 posts)
8. There's a fine line.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:20 AM
Sep 2017

And it's often ignored in all sorts of ways when juries decide to nullify some code of conduct here.

Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).


However, it's reasonable to say that denigrate means "criticize unfairly, to disparage". That does not say "criticize." Much criticism that's said about politicians is fair.

The definition of denigrate is also squishy because it uses the word "unfairly." To a supporter, any criticism may be unfair, to the point of saying that he doesn't like a certain ethnic cuisine because it gives him indigestion. To a detractor, taking potshots about the personal lives of their cousin's ex-girlfriend's brother-in-law's great-great-great-uncle might be considered juicy and utterly fair.

Things get much more strict when it's general election season and even relatively mild criticism of a (D) candidate can be taken as implicit support for an (R) candidate.

I personally find unfair criticism to always be out of bounds, but am aware that my definition of "unfair" isn't universal.

yardwork

(61,167 posts)
14. I auto-hide all OPs with the words "Bernie" and "Sanders" in them.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:26 AM
Sep 2017

That way I don't see those threads. DU is a more peaceful experience for me since I did that. i recommend it.

sarisataka

(18,028 posts)
15. If some people didn't have double standards...
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:27 AM
Sep 2017

I have seen more than a few Hillary bashers around.

I never became involved in the battles as I was willing to happily vote for either as the nominee last November. Now I avoid those threads as IMO it is more important to look forward and work towards gaining control in at least one chamber of congress and stop the hemorrhaging of seats at the state level.

The Hillary/Bernie horse is dead and beating it into dust will not change the past.

sarisataka

(18,028 posts)
66. I didn't say
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:45 PM
Sep 2017

many of them are still here...

Those who are around have learned the art of subtle criticism.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
91. Seriously?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 04:04 PM
Sep 2017

The Hillary bashers aew allowed all the time

Here is one example:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029576245

This is one open attack on Hillary. And it was allowed to remain here

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
17. Personally
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:29 AM
Sep 2017

I'd rather see nobody considered 'beyond reproach'. There shouldn't be be anyone you can't criticize. But if there's going to be that rule then it should really apply to more than just one person. Because that's what it is now. There is only one person that's untouchable here.

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
56. And btw
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:09 PM
Sep 2017

This is a perfect example of the double standard. You accuse me of being in a cult and nothing will happen. We all know what would happen if I turned around and did the same.

murielm99

(30,569 posts)
58. I did not accuse you
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:16 PM
Sep 2017

of being in a cult. WTF?

I know very little about you. I know you are here, so you must be a Democrat. The post I referred you to seemed to agree with what you were saying, so I replied to you. And this is how you respond? Wow. Just wow.

Ninsianna

(1,349 posts)
119. Would it get a bunch of people yelling at you, and would it get you
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 02:14 AM
Sep 2017

banned from certain groups, long after the primary is over?

The double standard is indeed interesting, we all know what happens when some even suspect that a certain person is being even mildly not-worshiped.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
122. It's not a double standard. One person became our nominee and our party leader.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 03:59 AM
Sep 2017

The rule is, we don't tear down that person.

Second, Sanders continues to present himself as a Democratic leader, even though he's an independent and has nothing good to say about the party. We're Democrats. We get to talk about him and what he's doing -- and the change he wants to make in us, regardless of our ideology and respect for the need to represent most Americans.

You know, when he stepped up to try to appeal to Warren's people, I was ready to listen, ready to start learning about him, and ready to vote for him if I liked what I saw. It took months, but, short form, in the end I emphatically did not. He's a rousing speaker, and that's all.

As for Sanders as a leader for the future:

Haven't you ever wondered what happened to attacking our huge problems of
* Income disparity and the extremely dangerous accumulation of power and wealth in a billionaire class?
* Weather becoming a destructive enemy.
* Fascism on the rise in America.
* College/technical trailing out of reach for millions.
* The imminent end of most jobs.
* The threat that SCOTUS could make programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, VA, etc., unconstitutional.
* All the rest!!!

How is it that Bernie's most ardent followers can do nothing but squabble about replacing the ACA? Nothing matters but a single payer program that could be swept into oblivion by 5 people in robes? Really?


We must have a can-do leader, not a hapless gadfly. We get to discuss and to criticize.

Ninsianna

(1,349 posts)
123. Exactly. Since when does even the mildest of criticism of policy or procedure
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:17 AM
Sep 2017

equate to a character assassination? Also, how blind does one have to be to see that the Democrats and our nominee are allowed to be attacked repeatedly, not hints, not policies, but actual attacks on the party, its nominee (one the most personal terms, with the right wing of lies) and its members?

We've got members of the supposed "unity" committee running around publicly proving how they're not there for any sort of unity by attacking the party and its leaders by name. As if they don't quite understand what the word "unity" means or that their jr. high mean girls antics are not being publicly posted on twitter. I don't know if that's just arrogance or idiocy. In either case, we have actual work to do, millions of Americans lives depend on it, and this deliberate divisive crap that is all too familiar to everyone is distracting us from effectively taking on the GOP.

Some people apparently do find it hard to walk and chew gum at the same time, either they are truly this distractable when they feel their heroes are even mildly criticized or this is their goal.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
127. Yes. Repubs and Russians are pushing "division" as a big fake news story.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:01 AM
Sep 2017

And, of course, "Republicans" means their extremely powerful dark-money manipulators. Huge forces are trying to break the Democratic Party so the right can take over entirely.

People need to realize what division actually exists is mostly a creation of our enemies and of the MSM, who thrive on dissension and drama and literally shrink when there isn't enough.

It's hard to tell how much smaller the anti-Democrat left is than portrayed, but the massive shift of genuine Sanders supporters (conservative spoilers subtracted) to Clinton after the primary indicates it is in fact much, much smaller than the picture the media push.

murielm99

(30,569 posts)
146. This is such a reasonable post.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 11:21 AM
Sep 2017

Thank you. There are few post this reasonable any more. Let's hope no one alerts on it.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
20. True. It's imperative we get beyond this however. 2018 is upon us
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 11:45 AM
Sep 2017

We need every dem-leaning DSA, Indy, 1st time voter, apathetic voter etc etc.

I really am beginning to believe the worst Bernie bashers are here to sow division within the Dem party... deliberately?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
86. You are right.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 03:01 PM
Sep 2017

Why is venting about 2016(a result that wasn't any one person's fault for than any other, at least as far as our side goes)more important than pulling together for 2018 and 2020?

mdbl

(4,972 posts)
126. Some of them are but...
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 05:09 AM
Sep 2017

some are just people that will always be pissed their candidate wasn't completely worshiped.

Response to Bluepinky (Original post)

Response to Post removed (Reply #21)

Response to Post removed (Reply #21)

Roy Rolling

(6,781 posts)
24. True
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:02 PM
Sep 2017

But just because someone is paranoid does not mean they are not being watched. I certainly admire your posts, and only gently push back because I have been disappointed with the anti-Sanders comments I've seen.

I think like you, MineralMan, and can adjust my behavior accordingly. But the reasoning and demagoguery I've seen has not been reasoned argument but tribalism. That "we are united in our hate for liberals" glue that holds the GOP/right-wing together worked for them. I question whether the same methods will work for Democrats, or whether they should stand for something positive, enlightening, and progressive.

MineralMan

(146,030 posts)
28. The thing about DU and all other open discussion forums
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:08 PM
Sep 2017

is that not everyone who participates agrees, even on the rules of discussion. In politics, religion and even discussions of which brand of cell phone is best, people with strong opinions will generally state those opinions, and not always politely.

Politicians, like cell phones and deities, have followers who believe very strongly in their infallibility. That leads them to believe that any criticism of their favorite is an attack on not only the topic or person in question, but on themselves. When that happens, they become deeply offended and may not always follow the rules of discussion.

More's the pity...

Vinca

(50,081 posts)
25. I've been avoiding DU lately because it seems mired in the past.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:04 PM
Sep 2017

If I never heard the names Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton again I'd be a happy person. YOO HOO! There are elections next year.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
26. Sanders isn't a Democrat...
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:05 PM
Sep 2017

...and as such isn't as protected. It's not so much a double standard as a set of rules designed in part to promote party loyalty.

Hekate

(89,668 posts)
43. The year got chopped off your screen-cap. Was that August of last year, or August of this year?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:42 PM
Sep 2017
 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
77. Frankly, you shouldn't even need to be asking about a specific post
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:17 PM
Sep 2017

In #8, Igel posted the relevant excerpt from the current ToS:

Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).


Some people seem to think that, once Hillary won the nomination, it was open season on Bernie. Skinner has made clear that those people are wrong.

As the OP states, however, there is a double standard in how juries apply the rule. Some people have even expressly posted that it's OK to attack Bernie because he's not a Democrat.

Response to Jim Lane (Reply #77)

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
116. Please elucidate
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 09:45 PM
Sep 2017

I posted in a subthread in which the posts are numbers 26, 29, 43, 44, 77, and 114. Which of those posts violate the ToS, and which don't?

In particular, I note that the subthread started with #26, which stated, "Sanders isn't a Democrat...and as such isn't as protected." That appears to me to be a post about the ToS (albeit a false one). You evidently had no problem with a post that inaccurately accorded Sanders a lower level of protection, but you took the trouble to complain about my post that corrected the error.

In short, your post is another example of the problem identified by the OP.

Response to Jim Lane (Reply #116)

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
96. Bernie himself has said that he is not a Democrat
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:07 PM
Sep 2017

On numerous occasions.

And he has never said that he is a Democrat.

George II

(67,782 posts)
46. Jonathan Capehart put it so well this morning on AM Joy:
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:49 PM
Sep 2017

"I wish he'd join the Democratic Party before he starts rearranging the furniture in OUR house". Joy jokingly warned him not to look at twitter for 24-hours.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
67. Capehart should certainly be held in high regard as it pertains to objective non-hackery about
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:46 PM
Sep 2017

Sanders...

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
147. I actually know nothing about H A Goodman except that people here sometimes invoke the person,
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:41 PM
Sep 2017

usually to smear those of us skewing left. So...not my source. Not my trusted go to for all things politics...
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
30. Sometimes they get removed, because they can be removed according to the TOS.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:09 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:44 PM - Edit history (2)

I know of one recently posted by somebody who I was in conversation with. I didn't alert it though, and while the comment was arguably divisive, I'm not of the opinion we should be so trigger happy with the alerts. One-offs of people venting their frustration is okay in my opinion, so long as they don't descend into circle-jerks of that kind of bashing, and certainly criticisms that go to policy or form or strategy should all be on the table for all of our reps and candidates.

So while yes of course, some posters may have a double standard, or may have decided that Sanders in particular, not having a D next to his name, does not deserve protected status, I don't think the site, nor the general break-down of alerts represents that double standard. There are people willing to alert and to ban across the board.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
36. Why, oh why, can't this be a more pleasant place?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:28 PM
Sep 2017

I am sick and tired of alternative opinions and giving me things to think about!

Why do you have to help me hone and sharpen my arguments, my convictions?

Why can't you all just confirm and validate my opinion? That's all I ask for!!!

Bleacher Creature

(11,216 posts)
37. It makes zero sense to me that he's so reluctant to be a Democrat.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:29 PM
Sep 2017

If he wants to have a say in how the party operates, he should join. Period.

The only explanation I have is that he gets more attention as a novelty than he would get as a loyal party member. That's fine, but then he has no right to complain that his opinion carries little weight.

I disagree with him on a few things, mostly procedural, and agree with with him on SO much. He could be so valuable to the party, and yet he CHOOSES not to be.

On a website that's entire existence is based on supporting the Democratic Party, that really shouldn't be to hard to follow.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,138 posts)
62. I look at it as that Sanders is way more valuable to the Democratic Party staying an I
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:32 PM
Sep 2017

Because maybe you or others might feel less comfortable with him being registered as an independent, but there are thousands out there that respect him and trust him more because of that. Maybe it is undeserved, but it gives him more clout with more people. And he is ours. He is a Democrat policy pusher, without the perceived baggage that the RW hate media could heap onto him if he were a card carrying Democrat. Silver lining. Glass half full. That's how I look at it.

emulatorloo

(43,838 posts)
38. TOS allows constructive criticism, not mindless lies or bashing
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:31 PM
Sep 2017

Constructive criticism includes things like discussing the best strategy to reach our shared goals as left-liberals and progressives.

Don't confuse constructive criticism with bashing.

Alert on bashing, because we def don't want baseless character attacks or rightwing memes about how 'evil' this or that Democratic politician is a or political ally like Bernie.

Response to Bluepinky (Original post)

treestar

(82,383 posts)
47. There isn't a double standard
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:54 PM
Sep 2017

there is plenty of Hillary bashing. We just notice the bashing of the one we love more than we notice the bashing of the one we love less.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
74. Are you serious?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:07 PM
Sep 2017

Throughout the primary we heard she was a corporatist shill for the banksters.

Lately we've heard how she should shut up and not be publishing her book and bringing up the election again.

You may not be on DU much to think that idea is so laughable.

Skittles

(152,861 posts)
81. if you find that assertion ridiculous
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:23 PM
Sep 2017

I suggest you revisit your TRASH and IGNORE functions because you are missing a LOT

emulatorloo

(43,838 posts)
84. I'm kinda shocked that you aren't aware of this.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:54 PM
Sep 2017

Confirmation bias maybe?

Bernie was my first choice in the primary but I never fell for the fake scandals about HRC. Or the false narrative that there was a vast ideological difference between them because there isn't one.

I guess that makes me somewhat "neutral"? Dunno.

At anyrate somehow I able to see bashing of both Bernie and HRC.

She's been told this last week that she should just disappear and STFU. Throughout the primary, folks posted nasty right-wing cartoons and rightwing sources that lied about her.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
80. My experience of posts removed and failed alerts says there IS a double standard.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:22 PM
Sep 2017

I'm not talking just about what I notice. I'm telling you that vicious attacks on Bernie are allowed to stand, regardless of what's in the ToS, and that even constructive criticism of Hillary is removed, regardless of what's in the ToS.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
102. Hillary's supporters will observe the opposite
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:28 PM
Sep 2017

It is just harder to notice on the side where you don't care.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
129. It is
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:22 AM
Sep 2017

You want to keep telling yourself people don't get posts hidden for non-worship of Bernie? Go ahead.

Demsrule86

(68,022 posts)
133. I have not seen any vicious attacks on Sen. Sanders. If I were on a jury, and saw that, I would
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:44 AM
Sep 2017

alert as I would on any Democrat who was attacked per TOS...it seems to me there is a sensitivity where Se Sanders is concerned. Consider the multiple thread concerning Sen. Feinstein and Sen. Harris and who can forget the Nancy Pelosi threads...criticism is not necessarily an attack...if there are policy differences. However, you risk having your post misunderstood...so be prepared.

Lil Missy

(17,865 posts)
57. That rule doesn't mean that bernie gets a blank check for life. What he says and does NOW
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:12 PM
Sep 2017

is subject to scrutiny, especially when HE (and/or his supporters) denigrate Democrats or the Democratic Party. And, current events are not re fighting the Primary.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
87. Which should be the same for HRC.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 03:06 PM
Sep 2017

Both should be treated with personal respect, and both should be respectfully held accountable.

And posts defending Bernie's presence in the 2016 race, or against what a poster sees as unfair attack, or for that matter posts simply arguing that ideas associated with his campaign(none of which originated there, btw) should not automatically be equated with "refighting the primary".

The candidate lost...the ideas are still valid and can easily blend with the rest of our ideas.

red dog 1

(27,485 posts)
64. Remember the "2016 Election Postmortem" Forum?
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:43 PM
Sep 2017

It was a good idea..and it gave us a place to politely & respectfully discuss the election.

However, Bashing or denigrating ANY Democrat, including Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a Democratic socialist, and who caucuses with the Democrats, should not be tolerated.

Quixote1818

(28,870 posts)
73. Hopefully the next Democratic nominee will be someone like Elizabeth Warren who most at DU
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:04 PM
Sep 2017

can get behind and all this infighting will go away.

sheshe2

(82,838 posts)
115. She is my Senator.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 08:55 PM
Sep 2017

Love her, met her, voted for her. This year will work with her campaign.

She is a Progressive Democrat if you like titles and I do not. Me I am a Democrat. Liberal, yet don't need that to say where I stand.

You have to understand she would come into a Presidential race with 'baggage' as well...she only became a Democrat in her forties. Hill was demonized and Warren as a woman will be to.

lapucelle

(17,969 posts)
132. Any woman in the arena will probably be found lacking by the MSM.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:43 AM
Sep 2017

"Flawed" is their code for "female".



JI7

(89,099 posts)
120. don't be so sure. many who claimed to want her to run said some disgusting fucked up
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 02:19 AM
Sep 2017

things about her when she started to campaign for hillary.

NYC Liberal

(20,111 posts)
79. Hillary is far from "beyond reproach" around here.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:19 PM
Sep 2017

The Clintons are probably the most vilified and denigrated Democrats on this website, and have been for a long time. (Though that title was briefly held by Obama from 2009 to around 2012; DU hated Obama during his first term.)

still_one

(91,527 posts)
82. Anyone can freely criticize anyone, no matter what their party identificaion is, on issues
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:35 PM
Sep 2017

and points of view. Likewise, anyone can respond to those criticism, or make their own.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
83. Think of it this way: A double standard is a big improvement over the triple standard we had before.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:46 PM
Sep 2017

Or was it a quadruple standard. I can never keep that straight.

 

Trumpocalypse

(6,143 posts)
93. There is a double standard
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 04:16 PM
Sep 2017

Sanders is not a member of the democratic party and has attacked it on several occasions. Clinton is a member who never attacks the party. Glad I could clear up the confusion for you.

Ms. Toad

(33,777 posts)
97. A double standard expressly violates the TOS.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:09 PM
Sep 2017
Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice (emphasis added)

lillypaddle

(9,580 posts)
95. Never fear
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:03 PM
Sep 2017

I've had two posts removed because I insulted Bernie, and have been threatened with banishment because of it. I'm scared to death to even comment on him. Apparently he is above reproach.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
100. There are two kinds of people on DU.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:14 PM
Sep 2017

Those that believe that there are two kinds of people, and those that don't.

Demsrule86

(68,022 posts)
134. I like Signs too...however, I don't believe in any one person...I am not a follower of anyone.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:53 AM
Sep 2017

I am not a fan of Sen. Sanders at the moment because I believe he has hurt our party and with the single payer bill our ability to protect and save the ACA ...also Medicare which is on the chopping block-pure policy. I will not vote for him in the 20 primary should he run for the reasons stated above. If he were to become the nominee (doubtful), I would vote for Sen Sanders of course.

femmocrat

(28,394 posts)
103. Guess I was wrong!
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:57 PM
Sep 2017

I thought it was questioning DU policies or whatever that rule is.

Also possibly re-fighting the primaries or criticizing democrats. I have been serving on a lot of juries lately so I thought this one might violate one of those rules. Guess not! I have no way of knowing if it was alerted on though.

***Sorry, I meant this as a reply to Ken Burch, above ^^^.

Turbineguy

(37,014 posts)
108. I was kicked out of the Bernie Group for a while last year.
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 06:15 PM
Sep 2017

No idea why. It seemed to be a Purity of Essence thing.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
113. Yes. I see dissing of
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 08:05 PM
Sep 2017

...him and his trying for Medicare for All, over and over. It's a bummer. Utterly a double standard.

PatrickforO

(14,465 posts)
117. Well, ideally, neither Bernie, whom I strongly supported, nor Hillary should ever be
Sat Sep 16, 2017, 09:54 PM
Sep 2017

so elevated in our minds as to be 'above reproach.' Why? They are human, like you and me. This means, of course, that both are subject to the mistakes that plague all of humankind.

Yet, they are both GOOD people with good policies who know what they are doing.

But not even Obama, or Kennedy or Roosevelt are 'above reproach.' That's not the country we live in. This is a country where we can legitimately criticize the policies of any of these people. So long as we make a cogent, respectful argument, there should be no problems.

For instance, looking at your post with a critical eye - it seems a challenge to conflict rather than trying to pull us together.

Because what we need to be doing is focusing with single minded intensity on:
1) the treason committed by Trump and his criminal cabal,
2) making sure that if gerrymandering is ended, we have a plan to apportion districts so the vote will genuinely reflect popular will.
3) fighting tooth and nail against ALL efforts to impose voter suppression measures aimed specifically at people of color.
4) support the National Popular Vote movement and try to get that legislation passed in our own states.

In the meantime, we all should be keeping abreast of issues and keep our US Senators, US Representative and state legislators on speed dial. Call, write, email, sign petitions, march, demonstrate and organize.

Because we got pasted in 2016 and in 2018 we need to WIN big.

pnwmom

(108,874 posts)
121. The specific actions of either one can be criticized - that's different from slamming them as people
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 02:20 AM
Sep 2017

Until Hillary came out with her book, Bernie has been more in the limelight. That comes with both praise and criticism, but supporters usually only notice the criticism.

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
140. It's probably a good thing I am "restrained" from saying what I really think about Hillary Clinton
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:24 AM
Sep 2017

and her book. I make up for it on facebook though!

Autumn

(44,556 posts)
145. I have all of Bill and Hillary's books, including Buddy's and Sock's books.
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 10:44 AM
Sep 2017

I won't be buying this one.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
141. It's instructive that some people still ENDORSE a double standard
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:49 AM
Sep 2017

First, spare me the sneers about people demanding "worship" of Bernie. No one does. He is one of the least egotistical major politicians in the United States today.

Second, some people do indeed need reminding that disagreement and constructive criticism are permitted. It is true that the existence of criticism of Bernie does not, by itself, prove there's a double standard, but the argument doesn't rest on so simple-minded a foundation.

To those who still deny that there's a double standard, I say: Look about you. In this very thread you will find multiple posts asserting (falsely) that criticisms of Bernie Sanders and criticisms of Hillary Clinton are properly treated differently here because this is DEMOCRATIC Underground and Bernie's not a Democrat. I've seen similar comments in other threads.

Do you think none of those people ever serve on juries?

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
143. It is not just Bernie upon whom it is open season on DU . .
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 10:20 AM
Sep 2017

progressives in general are attacked mercilessly here, but it is
verboten to criticize the Dem establishment.

This is not good if our goal is a have reasoned discussions about
things that we might do differently.

DownriverDem

(6,158 posts)
144. Hello? I'm a proud member of the Democratic Party
Sun Sep 17, 2017, 10:40 AM
Sep 2017

I like Bernie's ideas, but we have a two party system no matter how folks think otherwise. Bernie created a problem for left leaners in the last election. You can deny it all you want, but it was clearly seen. After attacking Hillary, then losing the primary, Bernie tried to get his supporters to vote for Hillary. Many of them did vote for Hillary, but many worked against her too. 51,000 voters voted third party in Michigan. Think about it. So Bernie, if you want to run in the Dem Primaries again, please join the Dem Party sooner rather than later. We are a two party system. That's how it works.

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