Well, it's official, the Green Party has just nominated another egomaniac/loser/idiot. Jill Stein?

[Tarheel_Dem]

Really? I'm sure with the help of Ralph Nader's old GOP infrastructure, Jill Stein will give them exactly what they're willing to pay for. Greens? WTF are these assholes between presidential elections? As she was asked by a caller on NPR, "seeing that Pres. Obama has faced unprecedented obstruction, who the hell is gonna caucus with you"? And why aren't they about the real business of building an actual ground-up party infrastructure, electing House Reps and Senators, and local officials? Her talking points didn't include a very good answer to that, except to blame the two major parties. Once elected, apparently she will depend on Tahrir style occupations to push through her agenda. Uh, excuse me, but hasn't that strategy already bottomed out?

On NPR (forget the name of the show, 1 pm Eastern), and I'm gonna say 5 out of 8 callers handed her, her hat. The other two sounded like plants, and out of respect, I won't comment on the "active duty" military officer who called in. Considering she has to get to 15% approval, I don't fancy her chances at being included in the debates, but apparently she has qualified for more than 20 state ballots. I loved the callers, who were mostly respectful, but in a sarcastic way.

Honestly, she's Roseanne Barr, with a medical degree. Talking Points City.

[cali]

1. yeah, I watched some of the Green Party thingie on C-SPAN over the weekend

it was depressing and pathetic. I couldn't bear continuing to watch it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

3. I think it's the smug self righteous "we know it all" attitude, and it comes off as elitist. nt

[patrice]

2. Our local GP tried to hi-jack a social/economic-justice coalition building effort

some years ago, from several 501 (c) 3s, by steering the 100% consensus process at EVERY meeting to "Shouldn't we be working for a political candidate?". They were looking for a ready-made GP party building mechanism, and, coincidentally, the American Renaissance Movement, who just happened to be around us too, exploited the disruption of tasking that resulted from the impasse over whether we were going to break from being issues based 501 (c) 3s or be a candidate PAC.

After a few months of unproductive paralyzed meetings, the coalition effort fizzled. I've been seriously annoyed at GP ever since; they're bad organizers, more like ideologues and hobbyists, and they tried to hitch a free ride on those actual working professionals at the absolute bottom in the trenches of class-warfare.

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. "and they tried to hitch a free ride on those actual working"

Leeches and other parasites have a tendency to do that. They have been trying to tear down the Democratic Party, and take over it's infrastructure for years now. It's never going to happen, but they won't quit trying.

[patrice]

5. This was pretty frustrating & depressing to watch.

They picked a facilitator who was just very "new agey, touchy feely", trying to do group therapy and self-promotion, instead of nuts and bolts stuff. Certain very whiny (sorry!) men took over each meeting. GP leader (a mid-to-upper middle class woman) didn't coalesce with the community service organizations present. The ARM guy actually tried to recruit me, because I was maintaining the database. Some enthusiastic young organizers from our Hispanic community showed up, but they needed US to get it off the ground, so there would be something for them to work with.

It was making me crazy, so I'm not sure I did the best either; stuff went on and on and on and when I'd finally get a chance to try to formulate what I was seeing, somehow we were always out of time.

Poor leadership either not knowing how, or trying to avoid, authentic horizontal empowerment.

[Tarheel_Dem]

9. And that's a real problem. These folks are seen as elitist by Dems and Pukes alike. The "new agey"

bullshit makes some people's skin crawl, but they'll only admit to that in whispers, for fear of being labeled "unevolved".

Look, I don't really have a problem with them attempting to build a party independent of the two major parties, but dammit, just leave my party alone. Do the hard work. Don't pop up every fuckin' four years, and try grab the top job in the country. Take over some local school boards, and city councils. This is what pisses me off about them, they are lazy, and want to coopt our party infrastructure, without putting in the hard work.

[patrice]

13. Oh, hell! yeah. I knew we were in trouble when the facilitator selection committee picked the guy

who wanted us to throw a little blue ball to one another in order for the current talker to select who spoke next.

Too many self-aggrandizers around is right too: task agreements were IMMEDIATELY broken, by other task groups, one result being that the group email listserve was co-opted by the free-lance counselor guy (the meeting facilitator) and very clearly used as advertising for his services. There was the mildest "No, no" reprimand and everything just went on as before.

[Tarheel_Dem]

21. "wanted us to throw a little blue ball to one another"?

I know that shouldn't be funny, but it just tickled the shit outta me.

[patrice]

29. It felt silly. I've done that sort of thing back-when, in my seeker phase A LONG TIME AGO. It also

seemed a little disrespectful to the social/economic-justice workers there. I had called a lot of them to get them there; called them at their work, so I had an idea of what these people were D-O-I-N-G. The group therapy approach seemed like something they didn't need.

[backscatter712]

6. Let me know when the U.S. switches to proportional representation w/ a multi-party system.

Until then, a vote for the Greens is equivalent to a vote for Romney. Any poli-sci freshman can tell you that.

[Taverner]

7. I wouldn't say Greens are "assholes"

But they are not the future #3 party....

[patrice]

8. All of the ones I know are NICE people, but they seem to have this idea that the whole

revolution is just going to spring fully developed from the forehead of Zeus right into their laps, because they're right, you know, so all they have to do is keep having their meetings and just be ready when it all happens. No strategic step-wise anything goin' on. No stomach for the grunge work, everybody wants to be on the stage.

...................................

[Taverner]

10. Someday, all of the minor parties on the left will need to form a coalition

Until that happens, 3rd parties have no chance

But imagine a coalition party with Socialists, Communists (and those make up a good deal of 3rd party lefists,) Peace and Freedom, Green and disgruntled Democrats (such as the Social Democratic coaltion.)

[patrice]

16. Hoping here.

[Tarheel_Dem]

11. Maybe not assholes, but they're certainly a distraction. This is all the M$M and it's corporate....

backers have been waiting for. In the interview, she spent nearly no time taking on Romney, except to say that he and Obama are indistinguishable, but laid into the president with every other breath.

Jill Stein is the new Orly Taitz, a cute, but megalomaniacal distraction.

[WilliamPitt]

12. Stupid OP

I have long argued that third party presidential candidates with no geographic base to their name (read: can't win a single Electoral College vote) are wasting their, and everyone else's, valuable time. This instance is no different, upon taking the long view.

That being said, Jill Stein ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002 (against Mitt Romney, as it turns out), and she was the class of the field. Well-spoken, intelligent, inspiring, and chock full of very very very good ideas. To call her an "egomaniac/loser/idiot" is to expose yourself as all mouth and no brain.

Medical degree, ho ho ho...she must be a moron.

Fail.

[rox63]

15. I agree

She was one of the few good things about that race, although she never had any chance of winning. The Dem candidate that year was pretty bad. Not as bad as the year they nominated John Silber. But Shannon O'Brien was a weak candidate. (I did vote for O'Brien, though.)

[WilliamPitt]

33. Me, too

Though it was a near thing. The Nader experience from 24 months before was too present for me to pull the lever for her...but I was sorely, sorely tempted.

[woo me with science]

17. Fail, indeed.

Jill Stein ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002 (against Mitt Romney, as it turns out), and she was the class of the field. Well-spoken, intelligent, inspiring, and chock full of very very very good ideas. To call her an "egomaniac/loser/idiot" is to expose yourself as all mouth and no brain.

Well said, Will.

[patrice]

19. We should never under-estimate the value of getting the issue education clearly before the people.

It's good to have people around who can say the things that need to be said.

[Tarheel_Dem]

24. You're absolutely right. Excuse me while I take a timeout! I'll be over here ------->>>>>>>

self-flagellating for my transgression.

[WilliamPitt]

28. :)

(((hug)))

[Demit]

31. This.

[Zorra]

34. Yeah, totally. nt

[Panasonic]

45. Thank you, WilliamPitt

for eloquently stating what I thought of the OP. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Hissyspit]

57. Yup.

[Ganja Ninja]

87. Yup I saw her on the Thom Hartman show.

She was a refreshing change from the usual money grubbing hucksters we have to select from.

[obamanut2012]

14. There's nothing wrong with Jill Stein

I wish she would run for Congress, although as a Dem, to stem the rightward march.

I also think Roseanne Barr should run for Congress -- I would vote for her if I lived in Hawaii. Also as a Dem.

[patrice]

20. I like Roseanne Barr. She makes me a little nervous, but I don't mind that too much unless necessary

[obamanut2012]

50. That's a good way to put it: making you nervous

She does me, too, but she is smart, and truly a good liberal, and has educated herself on the issues.

[dionysus]

18. you just pissed off West!

[Tarheel_Dem]

23. And all the Jill Stein enthusiasts it appears. All 2 of 'em!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. So, what's wrong with having choices in an (alleged) democracy?

It, at least gives some of us a way to vote for something other than oligarchy.

[Tarheel_Dem]

27. Choose Away!

I'm not trying to stop anyone from following his/her heart. Just an observation.

[Chan790]

62. Nothing is wrong with it persay...

but the Green Party needs to take a moratorium on nominating for the Presidency people who have zero chance of winning an EC vote and put even half that effort into winning downticket races and building a party infrastructure.

If they'd focus instead on running 2 or 10 really good Congressional campaigns in amenable districts, they'd win a few, then work to hold those while running a few more in 2 years...they'd be viable as a minor national party in 20 or so years. At the same time, they need to work to get candidates on the ballot in local races...it's pretty impossible to actually get any sort of party-support to run for something winnable as a Green. Let me put that another way...if they'd quit their "shoot for the top"-only nonsense, it's entirely in their reach to win a mayoral race in a mid-major city or a city-council seat in a major city like DC. (Of all the local Green Parties I've seen, none is as strong as W.DC's Green/DC-Statehood coalition party...and they get fuck-all support from the national Green Party.)

Instead, they're a laughingstock.

[Tarheel_Dem]

64. Damn, I wish I could rec your post!

[zappaman]

25. Maybe they can team up with OWS

And march together into obscurity.

[WilliamPitt]

32. Zappa facepalms at you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

39. Honestly, I think many are the same people. Same nonsense. Same Impact.

The problem is they don't plan to march off into obscurity until they've realized their fantasy of completely dismantling the Democratic Party. Notice, they don't go after the Repukes, it's the Dems they hate, thereby making it possible for the GOP to win.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

68. As long as they take centrist Dems with them... nt

[leftstreet]

80. +1

[joeybee12]

26. Unrec...you didn't include any actual quotes...

Just a lot of pontificating...sure, you may not like her, but the post is simply a rant...nothing wrong with that...but I'm not going to base my opinion of her on your rant...sorry.

[Tarheel_Dem]

37. It's an NPR show. You could probably find the transcript. WARNING: It's the same b.s. you heard...

in 2000.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

30. You say: "Honestly, she's Roseanne Barr, with a medical degree."

Strange comment. In fact, if anything, she looks like Gloria Steinem.



Why would you post such a comment? Is it because haters have to hate? Is it because you hate and you think that you will cause other people to hate Jill Stein?

She's got "a medical degree"? What medical school did you go to?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

36. OP is a über alles Party Dem -

Will trash talk anything/anyone not 100% Party line.

[Romulox]

46. It's BOTH class-based and gender-based abuse. Very economical. nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

35. You are aware that many longtime DUers -

are registered Greens who vote Democratic at the Presidential level? These "assholes" sent money to O, walked precincts for O, and helped get O elected.

Jill Stein's not the one who's a loser.

[Tarheel_Dem]

38. Jill Stein/Hell Hath No Fury 2012! I have no proof of anything you just said, and I seriously.....

doubt you do. "Assholes" still seems an apt description to me. Rock on!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

60. Uh, yeah, actually I do.

You're talking to one. Try getting out a bit more. There was Green/Democratic vote trading for Al Gore in 2000. http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/10/39860 All of the DU Greens and vast most of the Bay Area Greens I know worked very hard for Kerry in '04 and extremely hard for O in '08. Greens and Democrats make a natural alliance, and it's too bad that is not taken advantage of more by the Dems.

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. Bravo! We just disagree about your tactics. I have no doubt that there are serious people who...

consider themselves Green. However, I am a Democrat, and I'll say a big FUCK YOU to any party, person, or thing who is hellbent on destroying the Democratic Party to replace it with some fairytale liberal utopia. The way she went after the president today, while almost completely ignoring Romney was not only infuriating, but intellectually dishonest. She made a snarky comment about this president was supposed to be "The Peace President". WTF did that title come from? This president never claimed to be anti-war, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

We've seen this movie before. "Gore=Bush"? Remember that one? If, as you suggest, Greens are our natural allies, I sure would hate for them to be the enemy.

[Starry Messenger]

40. I'm so glad y'all have someone new to hate.

Where did you get your medical degree?

[Tarheel_Dem]

41. Ah, but Orly Taitz has a medical degree as well. Just sayin'.......

[Starry Messenger]

44. I'm glad you know the names of two women who have medical degrees.

That is truly some galaxy-class reasoning there.

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. Why, Thank You! I like you too!

[Luminous Animal]

55. She has a dental degree.

Last edited Thu Jul 19, 2012, 03:27 AM - Edit history (1)

[Son of Gob]

72. What are you an anti dentite?

[Luminous Animal]

77. Okay... I admit it! I'm an anti-dentite!

[Starry Messenger]

73. Lack of accuracy never stopped him before.

[Romulox]

42. Two Minutes Hate!

It was nearly eleven hundred, and in the Records Department, they were dragging the chairs out of the cubicles and grouping them in the centre of the hall opposite the big telescreen, in preparation for the Two Minutes Hate....

The next moment a hideous, grinding speech, as of some monstrous machine running without oil, burst from the big telescreen at the end of the room. It was a noise that set one's teeth on edge and bristled the hair at the back of one's neck. The Hate had started.

As usual, the face of Emmanuel Goldstein, the Enemy of the People, had flashed on to the screen. There were hisses here and there among the audience. Goldstein was the renegade and backslider who once, long ago (how long ago nobody quite remembered), had been one of the leading figures of the Party, almost on a level with Big Brother himself, and then had engaged in counter-revolutionary activities, had been condemned to death and had mysteriously escaped and disappeared.

[woo me with science]

52. Nicely summarized.

[whatchamacallit]

65. No kidding!

[quinnox]

43. sounds like you really dislike progressives

not sure why, but progressives and liberals seem to really set you off.

[Tarheel_Dem]

47. The phoneys sure do. Attacking Democrats, while claiming moral superiority. You betcha!

Fuck the Greens!

[obamanut2012]

49. Jill Stein isn't a phoney nor an asshole

In any way.

I don't agree with a good chunk of her criticism against President Obama, but that criticism doesn't make her either a phoney nor an asshole. In addition, her criticism of him is MUCH less than many within our own Party, and I also don't consider them phoneys nor assholes.

And, saying she's "claiming moral superiority"? What candidate DOESN'T, regardless of party, gender, age, etc.

[Tarheel_Dem]

53. Jill Stein/Obamanaut2012? I like the sound of it.

[obamanut2012]

58. Except I'm not advocating voting Green

And wouldn't at this point.

Nice try, though.

[woo me with science]

51. Third Way corporate types always attack *actual* progressives.

It doesn't matter a whit whether those progressives are Democrats, Greens, or Independents. It's the progressive policy positions that elicit the defensiveness.

Actual progressives must be destroyed, because they threaten to highlight the disturbing disconnect between Third Way progressive advertising slogans and actual Third Way corporate policies.

[Tarheel_Dem]

54. You run with that theory, woo me....

[whatchamacallit]

66. +1 (nt)

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. And Republican "types" sometimes turn out to be progressive posers. You better believe it!

[sabrina 1]

94. Very well stated.

But I think now that Democrats have finally caught on to what they were trying to do to our Party, they will have a big fight on their hands from now on. Too bad most Progressives and Liberals didn't notice the infiltration of the Third Way sooner, but better late than never.

[bigwillq]

56. I was hoping they would nominate Roseanne!

[girl gone mad]

59. I'll have to learn more about her.

Shrill loathing from a neoliberal apologist reads like a ringing endorsement to me.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

61. +1

[woo me with science]

74. Indeed. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

81. I have the same loathing for her that I have for Romney. She's running against the (D)emocratic...

incumbent, and I'm posting my objections to that run, by posting on (D)emocratic Underground, because I am a (D)emocrat. See how that works?

[sabrina 1]

93. It's extremely odd for a democrat to have to keep telling people they ARE a democrat!

All this protest doth raise the question 'why' methinks.

[Oilwellian]

82. LOL

And what is so ironic about this thread, it's the Third Way Dems who have "destroyed the Democratic Party," not the Greens.

[Nye Bevan]

67. Are the Republicans paying these people to run, to split the anti-GOP vote?

Baffling that instead of simply campaigning for Obama, she would risk splitting the anti-Romney vote and throwing a close state to the Republicans, like Nader did to Gore in 2000.

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. It is interesting isn't it? She was asked about that. Weak ass answer. The transcript may be up..

at NPR. They simply don't care, and take absolutely no ownership of the 2000 Bush/Gore fiasco. We can only hope that folks won't be fooled again. This is the reason so many Democrats view Greens as much the enemy as the Teanutters.

[msanthrope]

92. They paid Al Sharpton to run in 2004.....All documented by the FEC........

Roger Stone, Republican operative who fronted Sarah Palin, and the Brooks Brothers riot in Florida in 2000, funded Mr. Sharpton's campaign in 2004...


http://www.villagevoice.com/2004-01-27/news/sleeping-with-the-gop/

[undeterred]

69. They don't like the way we run our party either.

But their vision is something I can agree with.

[Hotler]

75. " Uh, excuse me, but hasn't that strategy already bottomed out?"

It never even got started. "Tahrir style occupations" is when tens of thousands take to the streets united as one, not a few hundred as in OWS. Maybe if the members of DU took their hate for Ralph and the Green Party and put into and organized a real protest the likes this country hasn't seen in decades we might be able to start moving forward. All I ever read here is excuse after excuse as to why people don't have the spine to protest or support a mass protest. The I have mine, fuck everyone else attitude is not limited to the repugs. At least the Greens are trying. The Dem party doesn't seem to have any spine. How fucked up does it have to get before you are willing to take to the streets?? It's so easy to sit behind the keyboard and bitch. Flame away.

[Tarheel_Dem]

76. I agree about OWS, but I disagree about the lack of "spine" in Dems. I guess I'm confused as to....

what it is the malcontents want from Democrats that they can successfully move through both houses of Congress?

My biggest issue with the parties who claim to be left of the Democratic Party, don't have any broad base of support, and they seem mostly to be overly educated, well fed intellectual types who think they know what's best for everyone else. The problem with that is these people won't feel the same pain as the people they claim to be fighting for. Their lives probably won't be significantly impacted no matter who's in the White House, hence their contention that it just doesn't matter. Remember "Fuck The Vote"? That's the attitude. It's self indulgent, and it's disconnected from reality.

(G)etting
(R)epublicans
(E)lected
(E)very
(N)ovember

I despise them every bit as much as I do the Teabaggers.

[Sea-Dog]

78. gotta link?

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. As stated in the o.p., it was an NPR show. There may be a transcript at the site. I caught....

the show at 1:00pm eastern, on 88.5 WFDD.

[GreenMask]

83. Most third party problems...

Most third party efforts stem from aiming WAY too high. It's happened on both the left and the right. It almost comes from being unable to see past extreme ideological purity and do practical politics.

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. Most operate on pure piss & vinegar, and you're right, they're blinded by ideology. They don't....

play well with others, which is why they will always be a minor, but vocal annoyance. The Greens (including Jill Stein), The Teabaggers, and the GOP can all kiss my Democratic ass.

[GreenMask]

85. Tea-folks

Actually, the tea-folks have done a pretty decent job, politically speaking. They played the practical politics game relatively well, and managed to replace a lot of blue dog Dems from the ground up. They didn't get a candidate they could rally behind on the top of the ticket, however.

[Tarheel_Dem]

86. The Tea-folks were successful because they were backed by K-Street, and very well funded.

They played to hate and fear, which could be considered practical I guess, but there's no excuse for what the Greens do every four years. They can't win, but they hope to keep us from winning. It's sick.

[Jim Lane]

88. The Tea Partiers learned a magic word that still eludes Stein, Nader, and their ilk: "PRIMARIES".

If Stein wanted to give people a choice, exercise her right to run, articulate a progressive critique of Obama for being too conservative, etc., she should have run against him in the Democratic primaries. That way she does all those things without splitting the anti-Romney vote. The last thing we need is a repeat of 2000. (Obligatory disclaimer to forestall the knee-jerk Naderite defense: Nader's foolish decision to run in the general election was only one factor in Bush's ascension to the Presidency, but it was, in legal terms, one of the proximate causes. If Nader had not run or had run in the primaries, Gore would have become President.)

The Tea Party is in some ways the mirror image of the Greens -- criticizing the mainstream of one of the major parties, from a point of view that's further away from the center rather than being toward the point of view of the other major party. The difference is that the Tea Party has generally not been seduced by the fantasy of starting a new political party. Instead, they've taken advantage of the rules to go after Republicans whom they consider insufficiently conservative. Their biggest scalp so far has been Sen. Bob Bennett of Utah. This year they ousted Sen. Richard Lugar, although whether the Tea Party candidate can win the seat remains to be seen.

If Stein had run against Obama in the Democratic primary, I would have voted for her. As it is, she will not get my vote.

[Tarheel_Dem]

89. Great observations. If Dr. Stein is a serious person, as some have suggested, why not a primary?

That is an excellent question. My explanation is much less complex, whether intentionally or unintentionally, they do the bidding of the people they claim to despise when they set out to split the vote. I can't believe anyone, let alone Democrats, take Greens seriously after 2000. They indirectly gave us Bush/Cheney, and now they piss and moan about the two wars he started, that the president is trying to get us out of. What the hell kinda sense does that make?

For folks like "Doctor" Stein and other noted Greens, who can afford to be as ideologically pure as they want, one has to wonder if they really do "care" about the people they claim to be fighting for? The Paul Ryan budget scares the crap out of most of us, and Pres. Obama and Dems in Congress are the only ones standing between us & total reckless abandonment of the social safety net so many rely on.

No one has been able to answer this question for me, perhaps you can? What the hell does the Green Party do between general elections?

[Jim Lane]

90. I agree with you except for your suggesting the possibility that they intend to help the right wing.

Granted, there are some elements within the Green Party who prefer Republican victories to Democratic victories. I think their idea is that the Democrats, having lost, will cast about for a better strategy, and will hit on the idea of advocating far-left positions that command the support of about five percent of the electorate.

In that sense, they may be intentionally dong the bidding of the right, but their bottom line is an attempt to move the country to the left. I'll be charitable and say that they're merely totally misguided in their strategy about how to do that. "Never ascribe to malevolence what can be adequately explained by stupidity."

As for what they do between elections, I think I've seen references to an occasional demonstration. I do volunteer work with the Sierra Club, and I think the Greens have helped publicize some of our events. Other than that, I don't know.

[Tarheel_Dem]

91. "......Democrats, having lost, will cast about for a better strategy...."

My problem is that embracing them has no positive benefit for us. Let's face it, most mainstream Dems think they're nucking futz, and I'm one of them. Do they have some good ideas? YES. Do they have any actual infrastructure to make those ideas a reality? NO. And the reason is most of us haven't forgotten (and never will) the false equivalencies applied to Al Gore and George Bush. Greens are Charlie Brown's teacher AFAIC.

If they want to be taken seriously, I'd like to see them work and build a party from the ground up, and stop running for the highest office in the land, and trying to coopt the infrastructure of the Democratic Party. DO THE WORK is my message to Greens, and stop being scavengers.