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Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:24 AM

 

$600 billion a year on the military we can't get more than 5000 troops/50 helicopters to Puerto Rico

Chris Murphy‏
It's worth asking why we spend $600 billion a year on the military if we can't get more than 5000 troops and 50 helicopters to Puerto Rico.

43 replies, 3946 views

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Reply $600 billion a year on the military we can't get more than 5000 troops/50 helicopters to Puerto Rico (Original post)
jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 OP
Goonch Sep 2017 #1
nocalflea Sep 2017 #2
Chipper Chat Sep 2017 #3
joshdawg Sep 2017 #5
uponit7771 Sep 2017 #8
avebury Sep 2017 #4
Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #6
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #9
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #15
Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #25
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #41
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #40
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #27
Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #28
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #31
Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #32
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #33
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #34
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #37
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #42
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #39
DeminPennswoods Sep 2017 #7
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #11
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #13
Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #30
DeminPennswoods Sep 2017 #43
YOHABLO Sep 2017 #10
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #12
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #16
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #17
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #20
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #21
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #22
Tribalceltic Sep 2017 #23
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #24
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #14
Drahthaardogs Sep 2017 #18
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #19
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #38
Sailor65x1 Sep 2017 #35
Blues Heron Sep 2017 #36
procon Sep 2017 #26
Thrill Sep 2017 #29

Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:40 AM

1. Generaly speaking

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:03 AM

2. Where there is a will, there is a way.

DOD takes it's orders from CinC.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:20 AM

3. The people there are brown.

Donald Trump does not like brown people. End of story.

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Response to Chipper Chat (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:45 AM

5. Nailed it!

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Response to Chipper Chat (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:14 AM

8. +1

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:34 AM

4. That should be the new rallying

cry of the people. Yes Trump hates anybody that is not white. But do you know what he hates more than that? Being publicly humiliated and he needs to hear massive comments on how unfit he is to sit in the White House. He needs to hear how Hillary Clinton could do a far superior job. That President Obama could have done a superior job. He needs it spelled out that , if we can't even provide assistance to Puerto Rico he will look like a paper tiger.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:04 AM

6. Rushing people in just for sheer numbers is pointless too

 

5000 of the right people- medical, engineers, aircrew- is a huge asset.

And since it's only been about 5 days since airports opened that is 1000 a day getting there.

When you send people to a disaster zone they have to be sent fully self sufficient with all they need to eat and drink and everything else provided so they don't tap from the local population and make their needs worse, plus have plans in place for where they will be housed to include tents and also have plans to make sure sanitation needs are met- there are not a lot of working bathrooms.

Doing that for 1000 people a day off the cuff is actually pretty dammed fast from a logistics standpoint.

Helicopters have to either be placed on ships to go over or set up to be moved by air, that takes time to get them set up for transport.

People seem to have no clue what logistics is and expect something the size of D-Day to happen overnight.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:48 AM

9. You're wrong

Trumps blew it.

keep trying to defend him though.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:55 AM

15. Your Math is a little off

Any large Airline can supply Planes that carry 500 or more.. that's 2 flights a day and PR has 6 major airports. Disaster response units are experienced in not "adding to the load" and arriving fully equipped ready to help. Why must you tear down every suggestion at helping? We have the technology, experience and capability of responding to disasters, it is obvious that there is a complete lack of leadership here!

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Response to Tribalceltic (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:30 PM

25. Tell me what airliner your using and where are you landing it

 

What airfare can carry 500+ and can operate on the runways available.

Just because it's a so-called "major" airport doesn't mean it can handle airliners that can hold 500+ as you claim.

You need to take into account not just the runway length and width but the runway weight capacity - asphalt vs concert and the weight capacity of the runway surface, not just length because the larger ones require specially reinforced runways to avoid sinking or damaging the runway. You can't just land some of the biggest aircraft in the world anywhere because you want to.

Also take into account restrictions based on density altitude that will lengthen the required runway distance for them to operate, the hotter and more humid it is the longer the runway is needed. Minimum runway length is under ideal conditions, its hot and humid there and much less than ideal means longer runways needed.

All this is before we talk about if the proper ground support equipment needed for larger aircraft to turn them around for takeoff and even for disembarking is there and has survived.

I just looked myself, and can't see a single airport listed with a runway that is both long enough and has the required weight capacity for any airliner currently with a US airline currently configured for 500+ passengers.

Since you are claiming it's possible and the military just isn't doing it I am assuming you know something I don't and can't find.

So please tell me:

What airliner are you using?

What does it weigh on landing with a full passenger load and enough fuel on landing to make a return flight?

At those weights given the density altitude in PR what is the minimum safe runway needed for landing and takeoff?

Where are you landing it? On what runway at that airport?

What is the length of that runway?

What is the load bearing capability of both that runway and the associated tarmac, because some runways may handle it but the plane can't leave the runway if the rest of the hard surface isn't made for the weight and then you lee a runway out of secrecy to unload, stopping other flights.

Since you claim it's possible I'm assuming you know more about this than what I do, and can easily give me those specifics.

Or maybe you can't, and this shit is a lot more complicated than what it looks like to a bunch of keyboard expertss with no real world experience, and the best military logisticians in the world who are doing this actually know what they are doing and what it actually takes in the real world instead of the la-la land many here are posting from.

I await your answers...


After you answer that, tell me what process you are using to press this aircraft into government service within 48 hours, and the legal framework behind that, and how rapidly you can do that. Not "it can be done with the right people" but exactly the process used and the laws behind it that can get the aircraft and crews taken away from their normal routes and into your command in such a very short period of time. Not that it matters if you can't actually land the aircraft you claim you can use at the airports you claim they can...

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:35 PM

41. Just to close this one out

747s are landing now at SJU and have been for days

At least 2 C130's Leave Clearwater FL fully loaded with supplies since the day after the storm.

10,000 Federal workers and troops are already on the island.

The people who say it can't be done, are the reason it can't be done.

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Response to Tribalceltic (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:20 PM

40. You're right about one thing

 

We DO have the technology and experience. And those of us who have experience using them are trying hard to explain why this isn't so easy. And what we get in return is called trolls and Tru.p supporters which is idioitic and unacceptable.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:47 PM

27. Exactly right

 

You won't be popular for saying it, but people really have no idea. Having been in military airlift, and since working with the Red Cross for many years, I have seen close up the logistical nightmares that these things are.

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Response to Sailor65x1 (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:00 PM

28. People here seem to think the military has Star Trek transporter beams

 

And just are not using them because Trump.

I don't dispute Trump has utterly failed as a leader- but they are moving into bashing the entire response for not meeting impossible expectations and as such are bashing people who are doing their best and are the best at this in the world just because they don't care if they bash them with totally unrealistic demands and expectations as long as they get digs in on Trump.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:11 PM

31. Yes they sure do

 

And when you point these things out they immediately assume you're defending Trump when one has nothing to do with the other.

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Response to Sailor65x1 (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:19 PM

32. I know it

 

"They should just take 747-400's from airlines and use them to move people!!!!!"

"None of the airports on the island can safely land a plane that big."

"Why are you defending Trump you deplorable!!!!"


It's extra sad because as Democrats we are the party of logic and science, or are at least supposed to be. But that seems to have gone all out the window when talking about this issue, and when those of us with actual experience and knowledge on these things speak up we get labeled as Trump supporters.

Meanwhile they thing they are bashing Trump when all they are doing is bashing the work of the men and women actually working the best they can to make things happen who have to do it in the real world and not the fantasy world so many of there folks seem to be in these days.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:49 PM

33. Although we are the party of logic and science,

 

I think DU is more of an emotional forum and that's what we see in these things.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:52 PM

34. Oh look it's a troll tag team

They're out in force today, must have got a cash infusion

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #34)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:57 PM

37. You're hilarious

 

I've probably spent more time in C130s than you've spent in your car, but please, by all means, tell us how very quick and easy it is to respond to disasters, regardless of who the President happens to be.

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Response to Sailor65x1 (Reply #37)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:49 PM

42. I would never say it's "Quick and Easy "

The main complaint (Mostly overlooked) Is that the Federal response was delayed by over a week. That is a direct result of the "man in charge".

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:07 PM

39. I keep waiting for someone to realize

 

That Puerto Rico is over a thousand Statute miles from Miami, and that the CH-47 Chinook helicopter has a range of about 450 statue miles. If there really are 50 helicopters there already, I'm going to call that impressive, and again, without crediting Trump at all.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:05 AM

7. Americans generally don't realize

just how hollow the military is. The total number of planes/helicopters is surprising low with most being out of production. There's an amazing amount of money spent on non-productive stuff like contractors for things like consulting and duplicating the jobs of career civil servants.

FTR, I am not advocating more money for DoD, but a redistribution to the actual mission, not a jobs program for retired military.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:41 AM

11. The red tape is difficult. Acquiring what is needed is hard

I could tell you some of what is going on, but then I would be identifiable.

People are trying. FEMA is mostly volunteers from other agencies. Resources are tight. Other hurricanes have hampered responses and stressed already tight resources.

The military is about killing not disaster relief. They are a Godsend but this is not their primary mission.

That's all I am willing to say.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:50 AM

13. BS

Yeah it's the red tape - keep telling yourself that LOL

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:08 PM

30. You realize your responding to someone who is part of the effort, right

 

I'm sure you know more than those doing it...

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:45 PM

43. Meant a different point

I was trying to make a different point. I think most Americans believe the military has a lot of available aircraft. My point is, they don't have nearly as many as most people think. That's all I was saying.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:59 AM

10. And yet there's no accountability or audit of the Pentagon. They're robbing us.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:43 AM

12. Again, this is not their mission

They are not robbing you of anything. They exist to fight wars and protect borders. This work is ancillary to their mission.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:57 AM

16. Their mission is whatever they are assigned! NT

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Response to Tribalceltic (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 09:01 AM

17. Army's Mission

As a branch of the armed forces, the mission of the U.S. Army is "to fight and win our Nation's wars, by providing prompt, sustained, land dominance, across the full range of military operations and the spectrum of conflict, in support of combatant commanders".


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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 09:25 AM

20. That plus the red tape

lotta red tape. Huge red tape

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 09:32 AM

21. I'm not sure where you got that

The United States Army serves as the land-based branch of the U.S. Armed Forces. Section 3062 of Title 10, U.S. Code defines the purpose of the army as:

Preserving the peace and security and providing for the defense of the United States, the Commonwealths and possessions and any areas occupied by the United States
Supporting the national policies
Implementing the national objectives
Overcoming any nations responsible for aggressive acts that imperil the peace and security of the United States

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army|

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Response to Tribalceltic (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 10:40 AM

22. Lol, I got mine from Army.mil


Wikipedia...LOL

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 11:31 AM

23. Good thing the Army is controlled by the Gov't and not the other way around then

Sorry Wikipedia is not "good" enough for you. Please provide a link that indicates that the Army, DOD etc is not allowed to help.

The main point that many people have been trying to make to you seems to be missed every time. It is the lack of leadership that is preventing help from getting to the Island, not "Red Tape", lack of resources or manpower. Both storms were tracked and information about the devastation was available the next day.

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Response to Tribalceltic (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 11:58 AM

24. Quit twisting words

It's stupid and diminishes any argument you may have. I stated emergency response is not the primary mission, which it is not. I provided the Command Mission Statement to shut down your silliness that their "primary mission is whatever they are told".

Our military is a fighting force, equipped and designed for warfare. The point was soldiers are NOT primarily trained to do natural disaster response nor is their equipment really geared to that mission. I never stated they CANNOT respond, just that it's not their expertise. The lack of training in this area makes it more difficult.

At one time, the National Guard did train for these sorts of things as part of their primary mission, but that is no longer true.

I have no idea what you gain or what you think you gain by lying and attributing false statements to me.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:53 AM

14. Trolls are out today with a message

Disaster reliefin' is hard werk LOL

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 09:03 AM

18. How many FEMA responses have you been on?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Better check your own bridge chief. I can hear the tap tap tapping of goat hooves from here.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 09:05 AM

19. Here's one now

LOL

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:03 PM

38. I think we can call that 0 then?

 

Just spitballing here

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:53 PM

35. There you Are!

 

We were just talking about people like you upthread. We'll Continue doing the actual work and you continue sitting in your Lazy-Boy telling us how easy it all should be.

Win-win!

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Response to Sailor65x1 (Reply #35)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:55 PM

36. Keep doing the actual work

LOL

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:43 PM

26. Hey, Trump's cabinet leaders get first dibs on military planes, and he needs

lots of troops to stand behind him as camera ready props for the news media's obligatory photo op and stenographer's practice exercise.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:07 PM

29. They can. Dont want to

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