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WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:08 PM Jul 2012

You know what I find really really reeeeeeeeeeeeeally interesting right now?

For years and years and years and years and years, it seems like Democrats, liberals, progressives (or however one chooses to be defined), have been on the defensive, and for one reason: the GOP, from Lee Atwater to Karl Rove, have been the absolute masters at political ju jitsu. Your strength becomes your weakness, and before you know it, you've been stabbed under the fifth rib and are bleeding out before you realize you've had an accident.

This phenomenon led to a great deal of angst and teeth-gnashing among those of us fighting on the front lines via protests, activism, etc. The cartoon showing a bunch of donkeys looking at a spine and saying, "What is it?" has been around a long while, and for good reason.

Worse, one of the things that happens when you're in retreat is that retreat becomes a habit. We on DU sit and scream WHY ARE YOU SURRENDERING every time it happens...

...but here's the funny part: what was their strength and our weakness has, all of a sudden, gotten reversed.

To wit:

15 Prominent Republicans Who Want Romney To Release More Tax Returns Right Now
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/07/17/530121/15-prominent-republicans-who-want-romney-to-release-more-tax-returns-right-now/

The first law of the GOP, according to St. Reagan, has been "Thou shalt not speak ill of any Republican in public."

But wait...here are all these Republicans who - upon seeing the manner in which these Bain attacks have been unfolding - are now falling over themselves to tell Mitt Romney to (basically) bare his neck to the blade.

They're doing what we've always screamed about: they're retreating, falling upon each other, and defiling St. Reagan's first law.

Which is, frankly, astonishing to me.

This is all bullshit blue-sky conjecture on my part, but...

...I think the GOP spent so many years throwing (and landing) haymakers that they forgot how to take a punch themselves. They're not used to being on the defensive.

And it doesn't seem like they're very good at it.

At all.

Just a thought.

108 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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You know what I find really really reeeeeeeeeeeeeally interesting right now? (Original Post) WilliamPitt Jul 2012 OP
The GOP is falling to pieces. randome Jul 2012 #1
You, and others on DU, are dreaming. The crooks who run the GOP loudsue Jul 2012 #80
Agreed Stuckinthebush Jul 2012 #82
There is a point of diminishing returns in regards to vast sums of money being spent. randome Jul 2012 #92
They are not that agile. mattclearing Jul 2012 #85
So who is in charge of the GOP? Rove? Romney? randome Jul 2012 #91
meh. obxhead Jul 2012 #97
Then more punching please! nt chowder66 Jul 2012 #2
Finally, ENOUGH! CTyankee Jul 2012 #3
you cannot sustain a lie. you can lie your ass off, but in the end..... spanone Jul 2012 #4
They can't take a punch. They haven't been able to hifiguy Jul 2012 #5
We need to get over the "we are above such crap" attitude. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #6
Yes! brutus smith Jul 2012 #18
Booyah. Partisanship ftw. joshcryer Jul 2012 #23
They have been on the defensive since Obama took out Bin Laden malaise Jul 2012 #7
Contention: The attack the opponent's strength and make it a weakness strategy... targetpractice Jul 2012 #8
Abusive bullies and psychopaths are rarely... ProfessionalLeftist Jul 2012 #9
Your point is well taken. Tennessee Gal Jul 2012 #10
I know many don't want to hear it, but this thing of Solomon Jul 2012 #11
Right! WinstonSmith4740 Jul 2012 #39
Thank you. I got beat up so much over the past three Solomon Jul 2012 #48
Damn Straight Skraxx Jul 2012 #102
Waitaminute. So we trade four years of ineffective passivity from the WH for... Marr Jul 2012 #69
That mantra don't fly anymore lunatica Jul 2012 #79
mmmm....it does kind of... (tentatively) and here's why... Volaris Jul 2012 #86
"But I haven't slept yet today, and might be way off base with my analysis..." WinstonSmith4740 Jul 2012 #93
LOL!!! I hadn't thought of it that way, and you're officially my friend now. That's awesome. Volaris Jul 2012 #107
My pleasure! WinstonSmith4740 Jul 2012 #108
I completely and totally agree! AynRandCollectedSS Jul 2012 #75
I hope we keep punching back..but...one thing on the tax returns. RedStateLiberal Jul 2012 #12
I wondered that, but I think it's the opposite. they want to know what they're dealing with now. progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #14
Hmmm could be. RedStateLiberal Jul 2012 #16
Me too Jessy169 Jul 2012 #32
I have a hard time believing that the Rmoney team is that good at strategy. RedStateLiberal Jul 2012 #49
It could be that.. sendero Jul 2012 #76
What you describe is the very strategy used by failing Democratic politicians for decades. ieoeja Jul 2012 #88
Sometimes, someone's unlikability trumps party. They can't help it.. well. that.. and.. progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #13
Bingo. Mitt has always been a pretty awful candidate. dkf Jul 2012 #28
The repugnant party seems incapable of admitting errors... rwsanders Jul 2012 #15
We aren't doing the same thing they've done previously. wiggs Jul 2012 #17
Talk radio is Romney's achilles heel. Blanks Jul 2012 #40
??? An Achilles heel is a fatal weakness, but owning talk radio is tblue37 Jul 2012 #98
Everyone doesn't know that Bain owns Clear Channel... Blanks Jul 2012 #99
OK--Now I understand your point. Thanks. nt tblue37 Jul 2012 #103
I appreciate you pointing out this distinction emulatorloo Jul 2012 #55
Right on. wakemewhenitsover Jul 2012 #58
Good Point rieger Jul 2012 #19
You make good points, too... ljm2002 Jul 2012 #81
First, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery," and success is its own reward. So, I'm not TrollBuster9090 Jul 2012 #20
"Which is, frankly, astonishing to me." Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #21
I think it started with PNAC, which was a coup within the Republican party. randome Jul 2012 #27
PNAC was a respected group of their former Reagan guys Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #38
I've always been a huge fan of, Arctic Dave Jul 2012 #22
Well it does now Dave. bluesbassman Jul 2012 #24
That's the Chicago way. Frank Cannon Jul 2012 #78
Now we need to STAY ON THE OFFENSIVE. Zalatix Jul 2012 #25
Fighting fair -- our greatest weakness and our greatest strength Jessy169 Jul 2012 #26
and I can't wait for the day when Dyedinthewoolliberal Jul 2012 #29
They don't want Willard. I bet they are making so much money Ilsa Jul 2012 #30
Most bullies aren't good at taking a punch because GeorgeGist Jul 2012 #31
I think they are suffering from a lack of confidence. D23MIURG23 Jul 2012 #33
This feels so weird, but good! liberalmuse Jul 2012 #34
Glass jaws. Bozvotros Jul 2012 #35
I'm thinking Ali vs Chuck Wepner Bozvotros Jul 2012 #36
What I find interesting felix_numinous Jul 2012 #37
To edit a statement by Bob Novak: ieoeja Jul 2012 #89
And a fine thought it is. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #41
The last shall be first and the first shall be last. n/t BumRushDaShow Jul 2012 #42
Schwing. Except I wouldn't say they're retreating, since that wasn't THEIR position in the 1st place Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #43
I don't think Flatpicker Jul 2012 #44
The general ineptitude is astonishing... Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #45
It's not that the Dems were spineless, they were told to take a fall by their masters, the same ones Dustlawyer Jul 2012 #46
Some are less concerned about a Romney victory quaker bill Jul 2012 #47
The GOP Isn't Good at Much of Anything Iggy Jul 2012 #50
LOL...you mentioned my signature photo Oilwellian Jul 2012 #51
Truth: WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #60
I wish you had said "gotten reversed" differently. Snort. lonestarnot Jul 2012 #52
And Here's The Proof That It Has Worked (Is Working) ChoppinBroccoli Jul 2012 #53
KEEP PUNCHING! lastlib Jul 2012 #54
“Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself.” Historic NY Jul 2012 #56
Actually WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #62
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop ibegurpard Jul 2012 #57
In Arkansas you will get booted from the party for not supporting a democrat. deaniac21 Jul 2012 #59
Yep. They don't have a template for this. calimary Jul 2012 #61
The repugs are in denial.... They believe in the power of redemption (but only for themselves) flying_wahini Jul 2012 #63
Come November 7th, it's back to triangulation as usual MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #64
The sun is made of blood. My hairshirt bleeds sackcloth out of its asshole. WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #65
So... do you wanna bet? MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #66
Stakes? WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #67
Steak dinner in Boston, including adult beverages MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #68
Grill 23 WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #70
Deal. Shall we set a cutoff date of Jan 15 2013? MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #72
Done. WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #73
You screwed yourself with that date Manny. Vattel Jul 2012 #84
Doesn't matter. They will never agree to what constitutes, "signing on to a proposal". ieoeja Jul 2012 #90
"We then offered an additional $650 billion in cuts to entitlement programs MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #104
Fiscal Cliff MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #105
Makes you wonder if they put Romney there on purpose Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2012 #71
I disagree maindawg Jul 2012 #96
No--they mean to win. That's the reason for all the voter suppression laws. nt tblue37 Jul 2012 #100
kr Norrin Radd Jul 2012 #74
they still got all the money ThomThom Jul 2012 #77
k&r HappyMe Jul 2012 #83
It certainly explains a lot of what we're seeing now. GoCubsGo Jul 2012 #87
I call Obama's tactics "Rope a Dope." It worked well against the alfredo Jul 2012 #94
Wrong, they got the money and the ads. Citizen's United guarantees harun Jul 2012 #95
It all stems from a serious flaw in the GOP Spike89 Jul 2012 #101
Well said. JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #106
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
1. The GOP is falling to pieces.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:10 PM
Jul 2012

The Tea Baggers are the cattle grazing on their lawn. Rome has fallen.

If we insist on seeing ourselves as powerless against them, we give them more power than they deserve. Thirty years of Republican ascendancy is about to end.

Not only because it has naturally run its course.

But also because climate change is about to hit in a big way. People will naturally start to turn away from the party who insisted it was never going to happen.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
80. You, and others on DU, are dreaming. The crooks who run the GOP
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:23 AM
Jul 2012

are going to hit harder than you can imagine with ads paid for by corporate, and often foreign, donors. The oil countries still own a great deal of the GOP, don't forget.

Also, if they can have a coup at the GOP convention, they'll nominate someone that will be too late to target, and will have 4 or 5 months to cover any flaws, and sell that person with 24/7 ads. This election is not over by a country mile.

Stuckinthebush

(10,845 posts)
82. Agreed
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:46 AM
Jul 2012

I love seeing the GOP in disarray right now in mid July. It is wonderful, but there is a lot of space between now and November. All of that money is going to be spent in the nastiest, most base ads you can imagine. More Sununus will come out and blow the dog whistle of racism and classism. These guys are masters at dirty politics. They will say and do anything to win.

No, the GOP may be having a hard couple of weeks but they are a long way from out of this.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
92. There is a point of diminishing returns in regards to vast sums of money being spent.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:44 AM
Jul 2012

What else can they do? Have a Romney parade? Hand out millions of Romney-articulated dolls? (Articulated as in being stiff and wooden.)

A billion dollars will not have an impact if it is spent on frivolous things like promoting a candidate even the GOP doesn't like!

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
85. They are not that agile.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:15 AM
Jul 2012

As a group, conservatives are extremely risk-averse. Romney would have to quit before they would consider launching an alternative.

And even so, they just spent the last year proving that Romney, unbelievable as it may seem, is the best they have.

But yeah, the sheer amount of money they'll be spending is worth worrying about.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
91. So who is in charge of the GOP? Rove? Romney?
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:41 AM
Jul 2012

Look at the facts. Palin was not vetted. Romney was not vetted. This is not part of a master plan. This is a political party gasping for air as it fades into the sunset.

Thirty years of Republican bullshit is about to come to an end.

I'm not being optimistic here. I'm looking at Reality. That is what I see happening.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
3. Finally, ENOUGH!
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:14 PM
Jul 2012

It's great. I am loving it and I don't want it to end.

Grind them into the political dust!

spanone

(135,831 posts)
4. you cannot sustain a lie. you can lie your ass off, but in the end.....
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:16 PM
Jul 2012

also they got cocky. 2010 might have been the best thing that happened to the democrats.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
5. They can't take a punch. They haven't been able to
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:20 PM
Jul 2012

for years. The problem is that Democrats forgot that they can punch too. Obama remembered that we can punch just a hard and usually have the truth on our side.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
6. We need to get over the "we are above such crap" attitude.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:23 PM
Jul 2012

If they are going to rat-fuck us then we need to rat-fuck them.

malaise

(268,998 posts)
7. They have been on the defensive since Obama took out Bin Laden
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:24 PM
Jul 2012

and the car industry turned around. The Obamacare victory caught them off guard because they thought they owned the Supreme Court.
The Obama team plays hardball exceptionally well and they have victories to crow about. Willard is a cornered rat and he's never been popular in his own party.
It's lovely to watch them trying to fight back and watching them fail day after day.
The question is simple - what are you hiding Willard?

targetpractice

(4,919 posts)
8. Contention: The attack the opponent's strength and make it a weakness strategy...
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:26 PM
Jul 2012

…works best when directed against someone running for an office the first time.

Obama's strengths are fairly evident to the electorate based on us watching him for the last 3 1/2 years. Romney is a blank slate… So the Rove strategy works best when implemented by Obama. When Romney tries it, it is less effective. Now that the Rove strategy has been tested again and again… I don't think Republicans can own it anymore.

ProfessionalLeftist

(4,982 posts)
9. Abusive bullies and psychopaths are rarely...
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:32 PM
Jul 2012

...as good at taking shit as they are at dishing it out. When someone gives them a taste of their own crap, they whine about how unfair it is and demand apologies and restitution. But they never, EVER apologize nor do they ever take any responsibility for the consequences of their own behavior. The way I see it, they're due a one-way ticket to a very hot place in Hell and they have been for a very long time.

Tennessee Gal

(6,160 posts)
10. Your point is well taken.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:37 PM
Jul 2012

Having Republicans on the defensive for this length of time is quite delicious and should it continue it will be become breathtakingly delicious.

I give tremendous credit to the Obama team for this. They have been quite masterful. It is a thing of beauty.

Solomon

(12,310 posts)
11. I know many don't want to hear it, but this thing of
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:37 PM
Jul 2012

beauty was set up by Obama. The constant offer of the hand knowing it would get slapped, the incredible patience and long-term vision. It's all paying off now.

WinstonSmith4740

(3,056 posts)
39. Right!
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:11 PM
Jul 2012

I, along with so many others here, have spent the last 3+ years frustrated and angry at the constant acquiescence with those who had clearly stated they were never going to cooperate and wanted Obama to fail. But it seems to be working. Like you said, incredible patience. Even the Senate Dems seem to not be totally afraid of developing a spine, but they still need some work.

Solomon

(12,310 posts)
48. Thank you. I got beat up so much over the past three
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:59 PM
Jul 2012

years trying to tell people that this was the real source of his power and that he was going to turn it around on them. Now there not a soul who can blame him for kicking them in the nuts. He said he was going to change the climate and he's doing that.

How many times have we heard about him having no spine and caving over? Well, how you like his spine now?

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
69. Waitaminute. So we trade four years of ineffective passivity from the WH for...
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
Jul 2012

a campaign effective enough to grab four years for the White House?

That doesn't make much sense to me.

Volaris

(10,271 posts)
86. mmmm....it does kind of... (tentatively) and here's why...
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:22 AM
Jul 2012

Because if President Obama pulls this off and gets re-elected, there's a good chance that he AT LEAST keeps the Senate in Democratic control, and once he doesn't need to get elected AGAIN, he and the Senate can run the damn show. He can make the argument as follows...

"We all tried for 4 years to work with these people, (including the Tea Party incursion in the House) and they just slapped us down, again and again. Yes, it sucked, but The People see what Political Conservatism in action looks like now, and NOW we don't have to play that game anymore. NOW we are gonna run this country the CORRECT way, and I don't care what the GOP thinks of that anymore. They had their chance to help, and they chose not to, so fuck em. And anything that we really wanted done that didn't get that way because of GOP obstruction is still sitting in the Senate, ready to go, and there is NOTHING that says we can't revisit that legislation, and try again."

Its the policy equivalent of a Rope-a-Dope...you let yourself get hit, in this case, so everyone can SEE how much your opponent hates you, and wants to kill you just to watch you die...that way, when you start hitting back with the same level of fury, no one holds it against you, the fuckers are "getting what they asked for" so to speak...if it works, it will marginalize the Republican Party for at least 10 years, and that's a lot of time to try and fix what the GOP broke in this country already...

But I haven't slept yet today, and might be way off base with my analysis...feel free to offer any thoughts that you feel might help=)

WinstonSmith4740

(3,056 posts)
93. "But I haven't slept yet today, and might be way off base with my analysis..."
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:58 AM
Jul 2012

Which only goes to prove that a sleepy liberal can still out think an alert conservative. (NOT talking about you, Marr! )

AynRandCollectedSS

(108 posts)
75. I completely and totally agree!
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 05:42 AM
Jul 2012

After a very brief stint of growing pains he adjusted beautifully and his strategy is now paying off. You don't get where he is from scratch without being absolutely brilliant.

RedStateLiberal

(1,374 posts)
12. I hope we keep punching back..but...one thing on the tax returns.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:55 PM
Jul 2012

I have to wonder if many Repubs who are calling for Rmoney to release his tax returns really believe there is nothing bad in there. They may think they will just show he's a very rich man and people already know that he's the richest person to ever run for president. They are arrogant beyond belief. They can't accept that Rmoney was responsible for Bain past the time he says he left. They can't accept that his tax returns may reveal real legal trouble for their nominee. To them, they are not violating the first law of the GOP because they are making assumptions that Rmoney is clean and his tax returns won't matter.

I dunno, just speculating a bit.

progressivebydesign

(19,458 posts)
14. I wondered that, but I think it's the opposite. they want to know what they're dealing with now.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:00 PM
Jul 2012

before they officially nominate him.

RedStateLiberal

(1,374 posts)
16. Hmmm could be.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:08 PM
Jul 2012

But I believe that if they dump him at this point then they're totally screwed. No way to recover from such a PR nightmare.

Jessy169

(602 posts)
32. Me too
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:49 PM
Jul 2012

I have speculated before -- and continue to do so -- about how Romney could be just making a big show out of releasing his tax returns, with a more devious goal in mind. We know that Romney has been interested in running for president for a long time. Knowing that you will be running for president and knowing that it was your own father who set the standard for turning over tax returns, it just seems incomprehensible that Romney would file anything but clean and non-controversial tax returns. Part of me thinks that Karl Rove is in some hidden bunker, pulling levers and making phone calls, building the "Romney Tax Return Release Show" to maximum peak level, and then he pushes the big red button and plop, there are Romney's tax returns, nothing in them, it was all a big to-do about nothing, why didn't we just take Romney's word for it. Like, there's the proof America, Romney is an honest tax filer despite all the accusations and hysteria by the Democrats. That would be a huge public relations "success" for Romney, and could provide a lot of cover for him the next time the Democrats start pointing at some of Romney's documents and demanding he turn the over -- like, something to do with Bain, for example. Just all speculation. I just find it very difficult to believe that Romney was so damn stupid, and that Karl Rove was so damn stupid, to NOT know this was coming and to NOT be prepared.

RedStateLiberal

(1,374 posts)
49. I have a hard time believing that the Rmoney team is that good at strategy.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:04 PM
Jul 2012

It's a lot easier to believe they ARE that damn stupid. Everything they've done has shown they are inept and unprepared. Their entire campaign is based on Rmoney's lies and hoping people hate Obama enough. They are arrogant and he really seems to think he's entitled to the presidency.If this was all some sort of feint with the anticipation that the tax returns would become controversial then it's the biggest rope-a-dope I've ever seen in politics.

I hope your speculation is wrong but I also hope that the Obama team has plans for all contingencies.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
76. It could be that..
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 06:15 AM
Jul 2012

.... but I really doubt it. When I hear RMoney demanding an apology, I don't hear a man playing rope a dope, I hear a petulant, entitled stuffed shirt who is not used to having to account for anything he does or says and one who doesn't think accountability should start now.

We will see.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
88. What you describe is the very strategy used by failing Democratic politicians for decades.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:16 AM
Jul 2012

Kerry sat back, let the Swiftboaters expose themselves, then brought out a ton of evidence proving them to be liars.

Too late. The meme had set in. The lies could never be unlearned.

If Romney is doing what you say, then he is just shooting himself in the foot. If Romney shows his tax returns after stating that he would not, that means he is caving in to Democratic demands. This makes Romney look weak. And the single most important attribute for a presidential candidate in the United States is looking strong.

A picture surfaced of Gary Hart with a woman sitting on his lap. Okay. I have had plenty of people whom I have never fucked sit on my lap. So what?

Hart drops out of the presidential campaign. Then a poll emerges showing that his numbers increased after he was attacked over the photograph. So he jumps back into the campaign. His numbers take a nosedive. Because he showed weakness. I know. I am one of the people who supported Hart before and after the picture, but dropped my support because of his weak response.

Gennifer Flowers claims to have slept with Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton responds, "yeah, we fucked." Clinton's numbers go through the roof. Again, I am one of those people. I was not a Clinton supporter prior to Gennifer Flowers. But his handling of that, particularly in contrast to Hart's mishandling, made me a Clinton supporter.


progressivebydesign

(19,458 posts)
13. Sometimes, someone's unlikability trumps party. They can't help it.. well. that.. and..
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:59 PM
Jul 2012

.. they haven't actually, officially, nominated that guy yet. I truly wonder if the reason the RIGHT is now asking for the info, is that they want to know before the Convention, in case they need to shove him out. That's really what I think, they know that they may have damaged goods on their hands, and are perhaps afraid of getting stuck with him.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
28. Bingo. Mitt has always been a pretty awful candidate.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:39 PM
Jul 2012

They pinched their nose to accept him but give them an excuse and they will gladly draft someone else.

rwsanders

(2,603 posts)
15. The repugnant party seems incapable of admitting errors...
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:02 PM
Jul 2012

So I wondering, do they stick with a candidate that they know will lose, do they know the fix is in on the election or do they admit an error and try a different candidate?

wiggs

(7,813 posts)
17. We aren't doing the same thing they've done previously.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:09 PM
Jul 2012

We might finally be doing some political jiu jitsu....smart politics, three-dimensional chess, the long game, etc. And it's a good thing. Takes courage and conviction. And it takes having your back to the wall, as dems may have been pushed so far to the right they decided to get serious before there was nothing progressive remaining in their platforms. And...the task is easier when you're on the correct side of the issues.

But what Atwater and Rove did was nothing like this. They make stories up out of whole cloth. They will call a hero a coward. They will label a self-made man an elitist snob. They will invent numbers, take quotes out of context, edit video, ridicule, smear, misinform, deceive, polarize, foment hate, throw a group to the wolves, cage, dis-enfranchise legal voters, etc. They know the jiu jitsu moves perhaps, but they combine the knowledge with a willingness to go low, using 90% of talk radio and very effective media machine to get a sharp message across.

Thank goodness we aren't that low...and thank goodness (some) dem leaders are playing serious politics. For the GOP, so many positions are untenable and indefensible...no wonder they are having a difficult time.

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
40. Talk radio is Romney's achilles heel.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:16 PM
Jul 2012

I expect that's why he's being so arrogant; he owns talk radio. A also expect that's the rub with Fox News. Romney doesn't need Fox News; he owns talk radio.

Obama pointed out that Romney was getting talking points from Rush. I expect the Obama Campaign to be a little clearer about fact that Bain owns Clear Channel. I also hope that the investigation of Rupert Murdoch's phone tapping makes a little bit of news before the election.

I remember there was the 'leak' from the Obama camp to 'make them look tough'; the information that came out in the leak was not the kind of thing democrats would overwhelmingly support.

I think there should be a rumor that the leaks from the white house were from Rupert Murdoch phone taps. Just for fun.

tblue37

(65,353 posts)
98. ??? An Achilles heel is a fatal weakness, but owning talk radio is
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 06:33 PM
Jul 2012

one of Romney's strengths, not his most deadly weakness.

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
99. Everyone doesn't know that Bain owns Clear Channel...
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 06:41 PM
Jul 2012

I think that if the word got out that all of these right-wing hate radio personalities were owned by one of the candidates. The loudest most boisterous of the republican red-necks would be ridiculed for ever having listened to them.

It's the kind of thing that has to reach a critical mass, but I think we're getting close.

I believe it's his Achilles heel and it needs to be attacked.

emulatorloo

(44,124 posts)
55. I appreciate you pointing out this distinction
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:21 PM
Jul 2012

They lie. Obama campaign is revealing the truth about Romney.

rieger

(11 posts)
19. Good Point
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:13 PM
Jul 2012

In addition, I think that voters have become tone deaf to Obama attacks after 4 years of non stop BS attacks. The more we learn about Mitt, the less we like him ... and we didn't like him much to begin with.

TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
20. First, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery," and success is its own reward. So, I'm not
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:23 PM
Jul 2012

really surprised that Democrats would adopt the same methods. What DOES surprise me is that Republicans don't seem to have been EXPECTING it! Maybe Democrats have been feckless cowards for so long that they really NEVER DID expect them to punch back, or PUNCH FIRST?

Second, I wouldn't call Atwater or Rove masters political JuJitsu. This doesn't take SKILL! The only thing that's required is A) Ruthlessness, and B) a LACK of SHAME. The truth is that Democrats have never wanted to use these tactics before because, frankly, they were afraid it would make them look STUPID and CHEESY at all the COCKTAIL PARTIES the DNC people go to. "Say, Charles, don't you feel rather foolish having your candidate wrap himself in the flag like that on TV?"

But as for JuJitsu, nope it's nothing like that. All you have to do is SUCKER PUNCH your opponent in the face, and then KEEP PUNCHING while he's on his heels, and never has a chance to recover. (Sorry for the ridiculous explanation of school yard bully tactics, but apparently the elites in the Democratic Party never went to the sort of school where they had a chance to SEE that strategy in action.) And that's exactly what the Republicans have done to the Democratic candidate in every single election since NIXON. And let's be honest here, the only times that tactic HASN'T WORKED were the elections where the Republican candidate (or his predecessor) KNOCKED HIMSELF out.

Carter only beat Ford because NIXON knocked him out.
Clinton only beat Bush because he didn't follow the doctrine, raised taxes, and his own party turned on him.
And Obama beat McCain because BUSH knocked McCain out. (And Palin kicked him when he was on the canvas.)

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
21. "Which is, frankly, astonishing to me."
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:24 PM
Jul 2012

I'll tell you when it was broken.

The "geniuses" at Republican Central watched the ongoing drama in the Democratic Party during the 2008 nomination and then saw them win the election and they took the wrong message away AGAIN. Seeing the knock down drag out turn to total unity wasn't what made us stronger. It was the common cause of making the world a better place for everyone.

Anyway, these Morans figured they'd recreate that show for America by having their people duke it out in a long string of debates set up like it was reality TV. No holds bared.

The problem is, nobody serious was stupid enough to play,...especially since the winner was known in advance....

What followed will go down in history as one of the funniest all time screwups in political calculation as they turned a bunch of assholes lose on each other.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
27. I think it started with PNAC, which was a coup within the Republican party.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:37 PM
Jul 2012

Followed by the toxic administration of Bush, Jr. Then Palin. Now Romney. Each stage worse than the one that preceded it.

Rove was the last so-called 'genius' and now he's been shown to be powerless against the Fall of the GOP.

Thirty years of Republican bullshit is coming to an end.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
38. PNAC was a respected group of their former Reagan guys
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:07 PM
Jul 2012

They were considered to be the party elder statesmen. Mind you, the Republican Party as a whole tried to claim they were a small faction when they became unpopular but that's the game. It's always a game.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
22. I've always been a huge fan of,
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:27 PM
Jul 2012

"If a repug brings a knife to a fight, carpet bomb the entire lot of of them"

I'm pretty sure that's how the saying goes.

Jessy169

(602 posts)
26. Fighting fair -- our greatest weakness and our greatest strength
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:35 PM
Jul 2012

It definitely feels good to be on the "giving" side, rather than the receiving side. But there is a big difference this time around that maybe should be considered. Fact is, Republicans fight dirty, very dirty. How many times have they attacked democrats viciously over completely fabricated or at the least greatly exaggerated "issues". They have been masters at finding a weak point and exploiting it with their very own Karl-Rove-inspired brand of dirty fighting. Democrats on the other hand, have not been especially interested in lowering themselves to that level of vile poison and lies. And we still aren't. I think there are two big reasons why we're the ones sitting in the stands eating popcorn and watching the show this time. First, Obama has done a great, great job of keeping his admin almost perfectly scandal-free. Karl Rove doesn't have any targets to exploit this time around -- well, none that we know about right now. Second, in Mitt Romney, we have the easiest target that could ever possibly have been put forth as a candidate. He is rotten to the core, despicable in almost every way. It is just too damn easy to take him apart. And that mystifies me. I wonder how the Republican establishment could ever have come up with Romney as their candidate. A part of me thinks that Romney was just very good at bullying and lying his way into the candidacy, and there is plenty of evidence of that. Another part of me wonders if maybe a little bird didn't whisper in Romney's ear that if he could make it this far, they would have his back the rest of the way -- but it was just a trick. It looks to me now like the whole Republican establishment is ready to drop Romney like a bag of sh*t. Well, it couldn't happen to a more worthy guy. It has been a good show so far. Can't wait to see what happens next.

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,574 posts)
29. and I can't wait for the day when
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:42 PM
Jul 2012

we can say, paraphrasing in an imitation of Howard Cosell; "down go the Republicans, down go the Republicans.........!!!!!"

Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
30. They don't want Willard. I bet they are making so much money
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:45 PM
Jul 2012

under Obama that they don't really don't want Willard in there to screw it up.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
33. I think they are suffering from a lack of confidence.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:51 PM
Jul 2012

W was the logical extension of Reagan's politics; he gave the right pretty much everything they wanted. Which led to such a disastrous failure on all fronts that even the republicans noticed (or some of them anyway) culminating in a 20 something approval rating for W at the end of his term.

W and Cheney had the party in lockstep behind them through 2005, but by 2008 everyone was throwing them under the bus, even a lot of the republican pundits. This traumatized the party, and caused its various factions to turn on one another. They don't have a plausible platform anymore, because W incinerated it, and everyone other than the imbeciles wearing teabags on their hats understand that at some level. They are so insecure about their transparent bankruptcy, that they will turn on the one who threatens to expose them at a moment's notice.

liberalmuse

(18,672 posts)
34. This feels so weird, but good!
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:52 PM
Jul 2012

This is the first time in my 49 years that I've seen my beloved liberals on the offensive. Dog Bless President Obama. He's doing it right - as it should've been done years and years ago. I seriously believe conservatives have gone completely batshit. They are insane - and don't even realize it.

Bozvotros

(785 posts)
35. Glass jaws.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:55 PM
Jul 2012

Years ago I posted a lot on political forums and that was my perception of most of the conservative posters. They could dish it out but go after them the same way and they wet themselves in outrage, fear and confusion. Liberal posters would inevitably take something off their punches while conservatives would be loading their gloves with lead and cayenne pepper.

We need to hammer on Romney but not knock him out till November. We want his fans to go home early to cry, whine and be too ashamed to vote for him.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
37. What I find interesting
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:59 PM
Jul 2012

is that liberals get busted for not keeping their pants zipped, or for pot. Sex, drugs or for seeing a UFO. Photos of weiners. Faux outrage commences and Democratic candidates are forced to apologize or step down in shame.

Republicans are the ones involved with international crimes, bank fraud, espionage, destroying whole countries, covering up corporate crimes, and enabling whole ecosystems to be destroyed. All of their effort is spent covering their tracks, hiding their money and brainwashing their minions. They have no imagination, just very effective methods of repression, they are good at scaring people and evoking religion. They get to be boot licked the whole time, and never apologize for anything.

If Republicans are actually on the defensive this time, let the investigations begin--time to clean house and get some real work done. These people are beyond reproach, and need to be chased out of office with all the strength we can get.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
89. To edit a statement by Bob Novak:
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:30 AM
Jul 2012

Republicans attack Democrats for acting unpresidential. Democrats attack Republicans for abusing their powers when acting presidential.

I added the underlined portion. Conservatives and Liberals often agree about each other, like you and Novak in this instance.

Take a former president of the Indiana Right-to-Life who said that Conservatives believe that people are inherently evil and need laws to control them while Liberals believe people are mostly good and need gov't to help them. I have never met a Conservative or Liberal who disagreed with that statement. We just fundamentally disagree on Right and Wrong.

Which pretty much means we will always be fighting when we can not agree on the basic difference between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, etc.


Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
43. Schwing. Except I wouldn't say they're retreating, since that wasn't THEIR position in the 1st place
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
Jul 2012

It's Romney's position that he won't release more tax returns. Not the other Republicans. So they're not exactly retreating.

But you are right that they are speaking against the position of their candidate on a big point. That's almost historical! They NEVER do that!

Feels good to be on the fightin' side.

Flatpicker

(894 posts)
44. I don't think
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:40 PM
Jul 2012

It's quite that.
I think that the tea party supporters aren't the politically savvy part of the party. They got let in and basically pushed out any "Smart Republicans".

Think of it like inbreeding with royal families. At some point you damage the lineage.
What we are seeing is the result of party purity over 40 years. Their stances haven't evolved and they have become so ideologically pure that they are in essence a collection of recessive genes.

Romney is the logical conclusion to their ideology. 100% capitalist, with no loyalty to country or others.

He's the perfect Republican, Ideology made flesh, and as transparent as any corporation is in it's faux human outreach episodes.
No wonder he believes corporations are people, he's as inhuman as a corporation.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
46. It's not that the Dems were spineless, they were told to take a fall by their masters, the same ones
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:48 PM
Jul 2012

that the Repugs answer to. Now the Repugs and the masters have a real crisis, Romney has something BIG to hide. They want the tax issue out before the convention so they can put someone else in.
Also, Rove and company are not that good. All they do is take their opponent's strength, and spend huge amounts of money lying about it!

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
47. Some are less concerned about a Romney victory
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:57 PM
Jul 2012

and more concerned about their own defeat. If there is some really ugly stuff burried in there, some would like to know about it before the convention. If it is bad enough, they will find "some other guy" to run, someone who will not win, but will fill the ballot line and do less damage down the ticket. A "some other guy" candidate would be some ex-governor at the end of his political career, as no one with a serious shot at ever being President will be interested in this race once Romney is done with it

Personally, because I have an occasionally perverse sense of humor, I would like it to be just bad enough to deeply concern roughly a little more than 50 or perhaps just 49 percent of the delegates. A floor fight for the nomination would be quite a spectacle, something to record on the DVR.

One thing is clear, Republicans do not know how to deal with Obama in campaign mode. In office they have had him cornered, but on the stump he takes their measure and finds them lacking.

 

Iggy

(1,418 posts)
50. The GOP Isn't Good at Much of Anything
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:08 PM
Jul 2012

except playing dirty politics and kissing the ass of the wealthy class.

Willard has already stated he's not releasing more tax returns-- what are these 15 "prominent"
repuglicans going to do about it?

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
51. LOL...you mentioned my signature photo
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:10 PM
Jul 2012

I'll change it when they fight like this for progressive policies. I will admit though, I've felt encouraged and amused the past few days.

ChoppinBroccoli

(3,784 posts)
53. And Here's The Proof That It Has Worked (Is Working)
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:18 PM
Jul 2012

The Republicans were hoping to make the economy the main issue of this election and then say that Rmoney is better to run the economy because look how well he ran his business. And most of the polls showed that voters trusted Rmoney more to run the economy (he was losing on almost all the other issues, but he consistently was ahead on the "handle the economy" issue).

The latest polls show that Obama has re-taken the lead on the "Who's Better To Run The Economy" question, and has started to really pull away from Rmoney on the other issues as well. Additionally, he's polling much stronger in the battleground States (I saw that he was way ahead in Virginia and 1% ahead in North Carolina).

And just seeing the sheer desperation from the right-wing screamers (they're all trying SO hard to divert attention with one made-up scandal against Obama after another) makes me think they all see the handwriting on the wall. This one is turning into a laugher.

lastlib

(23,233 posts)
54. KEEP PUNCHING!
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:19 PM
Jul 2012

DON'T LET THEM REGAIN FOOTING, or we'll be another 30 years rooting them out. And they have to be rooted out.

calimary

(81,265 posts)
61. Yep. They don't have a template for this.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:23 AM
Jul 2012

They're creatures of habit. They're used to being on offense - against an opponent (the Dems) who always cave, almost on cue. They've become SO used to it that they've got nothing ready when the opponent suddenly refuses to follow the playbook. Think Katie Holmes versus Tom Cruise. He thought he had another timid little capitulator on his hands. And as the press reported - he was "blindsided." Funny how both turns of events are happening at the same time!

DESTABILIZE THE ENEMY. As often and as relentlessly and as creatively as possible. Don't react the way they expect you to. It WILL throw them off their game.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
64. Come November 7th, it's back to triangulation as usual
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:27 AM
Jul 2012

A "grand bargain" that cuts Medicare and Social Security.

Anyone wanna bet on it?

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
66. So... do you wanna bet?
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:31 AM
Jul 2012

Obama's doing a great job here, but it's for a cause he cares deeply about. As far as I can tell, when it comes to working Americans, we're pretty far down on the list after "doing something big and historical that shows I can transcend political divides". And come November, we're fucked no matter who wins - albeit somewhat less fucked if Obama's in the White House.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
68. Steak dinner in Boston, including adult beverages
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
Jul 2012

Bet is whether Obama signs on to a proposal that cuts Social Security and or raises Medicare eligibility. Loser pays, of course.

 

WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
70. Grill 23
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:46 AM
Jul 2012

Look it up.

Bet.

It'll be a pleasure to feast with you, win or lose...except I fiercely hope I don't lose. For obvious reasons.

*handshake* <--- social contract

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
72. Deal. Shall we set a cutoff date of Jan 15 2013?
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:21 AM
Jul 2012

No proposal by then, you win.

I join you in hoping for your win. Small price to pay compared to insane government.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
90. Doesn't matter. They will never agree to what constitutes, "signing on to a proposal".
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:38 AM
Jul 2012

Obama says, "nothing is off the table, even if that means cutting Social Security."

Manny says, "I win. He signed on to a proposal to cut Social Security."

The rest of us say, "no, he signed on to a proposal to have a discussion."

And so it goes....


 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
104. "We then offered an additional $650 billion in cuts to entitlement programs
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:19 AM
Jul 2012

— Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security" - President Obama, 7/22/2011

If he pulls something like that again between his re-election and Jan, 15th, that would count as signing onto a proposal, no?

Simply saying that everything is on the table, or going back to his cutesy "cut vs. slash" nonsense, etc - while disturbing - would not count.

Does that make sense?

Rosa Luxemburg

(28,627 posts)
71. Makes you wonder if they put Romney there on purpose
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:50 AM
Jul 2012

maybe they don't want to deal with the precarious economy for another 4 years?

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
96. I disagree
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 05:07 PM
Jul 2012

they thought they could win. There are so many bigots , highly motivated bigots they had a chance. But Obama moved the goal , a standard repug tactic. He moved it forward they always move it backward.
They thought they could coast through the summer, and hit hard in sept. They may have some October surprise, but by then the way things are going, it will be a wiff. They are wiffing with every swing.
The president is a very smart guy. He has done an outstanding job dealing with a pack of assholes. He gives them just enough rope everytime. They take the bait and Obama makes it look easy.I think we all worry alot more than he does.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
83. k&r
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:08 AM
Jul 2012

Usually kicking someone when they are down isn't the thing to do. In this case, we should put on our roach stompers, and kick away.

GoCubsGo

(32,083 posts)
87. It certainly explains a lot of what we're seeing now.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:37 AM
Jul 2012

A recent example being Sununu's spew about the President living in Indonesia, being a community organizer, using drugs as a kid, etc. They're running back to the same old shit they hurled back in 2008. That tells me this has caught them off guard, and that they don't know how to respond. The President has been usurping the republicans' tactics and policies all along, I think this is just more of the same.

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
94. I call Obama's tactics "Rope a Dope." It worked well against the
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:34 PM
Jul 2012

Clintons and McCain in 2008, and it is working very well against a less formidable foe, Romney. If it works well enough, Romney will be completely defeated before the convention. If it is clear that Romney is being trounced, look for fireworks at the RNC convention.

Hurting Romney so bad so early can depress the Republican vote down ticket. The big money will have to choose between Romney, or propping up down ticket races. Their efforts will not be too successful without enthusiasm about the top of the ticket. They need the presidential year voters to push the straight ticket button, then go back asleep for four years.

Spike89

(1,569 posts)
101. It all stems from a serious flaw in the GOP
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:29 PM
Jul 2012

The GOP is actually two very, very different groups of people. They all might call themselves conservatives, but they don't mean the same thing by conservative. The money (and thus "control&quot of the party has always been in the hands of the business/corporate faction. Those people really don't give a rat's behind about religious wedge issues (gay marriage, abortion, etc.). They care only about pro-business issue (low taxes, deregulation, etc.) The reality is that most of the corporate group are probably quite liberal in their private social views, but know they need the coalition.
The other faction within the republican coalition is of course the fundy and social conservatives. They've never had much power, but have reliably been pandered to by the right. Low information voters with lots of anger, they really don't care about abstract economic policy. Sure, they latch onto simplistic slogans and are affected by the economy, but when it comes down to it, they are mostly ticked off that "their taxes are going to homos and to doctors that kill babies". Anyway, we can call these guys the Tea Party, even though they aren't all actually in the Tea Party.
The Tea Party folks actually have some political power--there are a lot of socially pissed off people in this country. They aren't a majority, despite what they say, but they certainly outnumber the corporate bosses.
So, we have the elite (near 10%, even though 9 out of 10 only think they are elite) banding with about 40% of the population to make nearly 50% which makes the Republican party very competitive with the Democratic party--it at least explains Reagan, Bush, and W. The problem is the republicans MUST run a corporate candidate for POTUS, a tea bagger president won't work for the corporate faction. Not a problem in the past, W and Reagan were each quite willing to pander to the Tea party types, but were every bit as corporatist as Romney. Of course Bush I wasn't good at the pandering and lost his reelection.
Romney is pure corporatist and no one on either side believes he cares much about the social issues--he'll say whatever he thinks will help him on those topics.
They are totally screwed with Romney as a candidate.

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