General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo many people here defending Columbus...
Regardless of whether or not Columbus actually "discovered" our fair nation (that had numerous peoples already living in it at the time), he was undoubtedly involved in the rape of the West Indies and a participant in the slave trade.
Columbus established Spanish colonies that forced natives to surrender gold to the crown.
Columbus led an expedition against the Taino people of Hispaniola.
Columbus enslaved native people and sent them to Spain.
We rightfully deplore the continuing government support of Confederate statues, even those of common soldiers who did not own slaves. However, for some reason various folks here at DU continue to support statues and other honors for Columbus, a man who was actually a slaver.
http://www2.fiu.edu/~cookn/cuneo1.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/04/opinion/l-slavery-and-colonialism-make-up-the-true-legacy-of-columbus-866089.html
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Christopher-Columbus/The-first-voyage#toc25449

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
AngryAmish This message was self-deleted by its author.
N_E_1 for Tennis
(8,898 posts)Defend this...
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/five-scary-christopher-columbus-quotes-that-let-you-celebrate-the-holiday-the-right-way-2/
-snip-
Youve probably heard lots of great things about Christopher Columbus and tons of inspiring quotes from him about hard work, god, the sea etc. But those dont really capture what Columbus and the colonial expansion of which he was part were all about. So, without further ado, allow me to present these quotes that you may not have heard, from or about Christopher Columbus.
1. Conquest: the perfect chaser for expelling Muslims and Jews. You dont have to be an academic to link Spains colonial expansion abroad with its inquisition at home. Columbus made the connection himself. Of course he saw this as a good thing, not a bad one a killer combo, if you will. He wrote to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain
-snip-
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)The enslavement of Africans...
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And really, as we sit in America drinking a latte, typing on a tablet criticizing Columbus makes me shake my head.
The French sucked too. So did the Brits did as well. Colonization is not nice.
yuiyoshida
(41,425 posts)In hawaii to my people ( I am part native hawaiian)
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)just let me know when we have a national holiday to honor King George III...
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And I suggest you read up on slavery in New Spain vs. America. A few highlights....
1) children of slaves were born free
2) slavery was ended 100 years earlier in New Spain than America.
The Brits were the cruelest fucks every from South Africa to India.
I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs...
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)"I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs..."
What does that even mean? Do you think I am an anglophile or something? I think the Brits were terrible just like the Spanish! Are you arguing that there are "nice" forms of slavery?
As to your comment title, there were no signors of the DI named "4th of July", so the holiday doesn't confer any particular honor upon them individually.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)I know him well, we were introduced by Frederick Douglas, and Bartolome told me:
"And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. They are by nature the most humble, patient, and peaceable, holding no grudges, free from embroilments, neither excitable nor quarrelsome. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world they not only possess little but have no desire to possess worldly goods. For this reason they are not arrogant, embittered, or greedy. They are very clean in their persons, with alert, intelligent minds, docile and open to doctrine, very apt to receive our holy Catholic faith, to be endowed with virtuous customs, and to behave in a godly fashion."
" into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons."
"The island of Cuba is now almost completely depopulated. San Juan [Puerto Rico] and Jamaica are two of the largest, most productive and attractive islands; both are now deserted and devastated. On the northern side of Cuba and Hispaniola the neighboring Lucayos comprising more than sixty islands have the healthiest lands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to the Island of Hispaniola to be sold as slaves. When the Spaniards saw that some of these had escaped, they sent a ship to find them, and it voyaged for three years among the islands searching for those who had escaped being slaughtered "
"More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated "
"As for the vast mainland, which is ten times larger than all Spain, we are sure that our Spaniards, with their cruel and abominable acts, have devastated the land and exterminated the rational people who fully inhabited it. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million."
"Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time "
" the Indians began to seek ways to throw the Christians out of their lands. And the Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against them. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house. They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, 'Boil there, you offspring of the devil!' Other infants they put to the sword along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. They made some low wide gallows on which they hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. With still others, all those they wanted to capture alive, they cut off their hands and hung them round the victim's neck, saying, 'Go now, carry the message,' meaning, Take the news to the Indians who have fled to the mountains. survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves."
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Say he was probably lying to make his point more salient.
Quoting passages he wrote that are probably exaggerated doesn't bolster them. What is your point? If they are embellished, posting more of them does not increase the authenticity
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Yes, de las Casas had an agenda, defending the Indigenous Peoples from certain genocide, have them decreed human by the Crown and Church, and ending slavery. He was appointed Universal Protector of the Indians to prosecute the abuses. It was his job to write about it and present the evidence.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Natives. He sucked too.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)His promotion if Africans as slaves is well documented.
Says you, lol... really? Can't document it huh? You obviously are not educated in this argument and just post what you feel.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,819 posts)Das Vadanya!
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)And are you arguing that this means we should not remove Confederate monuments?
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Did you see the fake BLM actors they hired? Who knows what else was done on social media.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Do you think we should have Confederate statues in public places or no?
Regardless of Russia's activity in the Confederate statue controversy, there are plenty of Americans who also want the statues to come down.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Do you think we should have a racist in the white house, or no?
Do you think we should have a liar and propagandist as a press secretary, or no?
Our time is not infinite. This is a critical point in US history. The racist in the white house is going to do far more damage to indigenous people in the next 2 years than ANYTHING having to do with Columbus.
Focus. Work. Stop the GOP and Trump. Then worry about Columbus in 2021.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Of course I agree with you on Trump, I am a member of DU after all.
However, you yourself are now evidence that we can discuss Columbus Day AND Trump at the same time. See, we can try to solve more than one problem at a time! In fact, you wasted a lot more time than necessary fighting this basic fact about multi-tasking.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Only so much can be discussed in one day.
Focus on the racism in the white house, the propaganda in our media, and the GOP donor billionaires who want to hurt Americans for tax cuts. Let's talk about Columbus in 2021.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)There will always be more pressing matters, even in 2021. Once again, I ask you to clarify whether you think we should not discuss Confederate statues until 2021 or later.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)And billionaires running the GOP
And right wing propaganda: Fox, Limbaugh, Breitbard
And the need for major campaign finance reform - dark money etc
If we solve these issues others will follow.
Orrex
(62,779 posts)Don't genocidal criminals deserve their own statues, city names, and national holidays? How else are we to commemorate the near-extinction of indigenous peoples?
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)RT - formerly Russia Today - the Russian propaganda outfit in the US, has employees fleeing.
They are worried about espionage prosecution and Mueller.
This is one part of the Russian disinformation campaign in the US.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Orrex
(62,779 posts)Um...
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Orrex
(62,779 posts)
jcmaine72
(1,772 posts)...and the first two don't count.
Orrex
(62,779 posts)Got it.
jcmaine72
(1,772 posts)I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I'm still a little shell shocked over literally being silenced earlier for expressing an opinion about Columbus that I know from my own experiencs are commonly held amongst fellow progressives and liberals. My mistake, I suppose, was assuming there were any like-minded people here in (of all places) a Democratic forum.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029685765
Orrex
(62,779 posts)Strike it from the record and replace it with National Indigenous People's Day. Point me to the petition, and I'll sign it.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)And yet we still don't want Confederate flags and monuments hanging around.
Columbus committed massacres and took slaves back to Spain. Columbus gave a woman to one of his traveling companions. I'm reasonably sure we can find a better Italian to help us honor Italian-American Day.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Belief that the Asian people were inferior beings. They foolishly thought that the U.S. military merely had to show up. Seeking to right the wrongs from 500 years ago is a fools errand IMO.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)among the radical left. They're very like the far right in so many ways, with one striking difference being that the far right is aggressively hostile toward everyone who is different, while the far left is aggressively hostile toward whatever they themselves feel identified with.
Theyr'e both rigidly locked into their irrational reactions, and I OD'd on their constant, profoundly silly, and potentially profoundly destructive attacks in the 1960s.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Raine
(30,215 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Columbus was an explorer credited with discovering America 500 years ago. I find your apples to oranges comparison to be quite myopic.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)You are the one who brought up Korea and Nam. Regardless of how we fought those wars, we do not have any national holidays honoring the men who directed them. In the sense of your argument, I am merely seeking parity for Columbus.
Your original post was that the world was different in 1492, and I agree. That fact doesn't mean we need to have a national holiday to honor the guy who took slaves and massacred natives in the West Indies.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)with a national holiday, since he was such a dirtbag.
As for the history of the event, that will always be available in books. I don't think we should have a holiday named after Columbus.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)This country was founded on dehumanizing people of color, and not much has changed. Nor will it as long as it is not considered to have been a problem until now.
Celebrating Columbus and confederate soldiers is to justify and celebrate the continuation of that tradition. Dressing it up with "it was a different time" ignores that human trafficking, slavery through mass incarceration, and glaring racial disparities are still a part of US culture.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not even those who think Columbus Day is an acceptable holiday (like me and President Obama).
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)And I find it odd that you invoke Obama, as if he was a.) never wrong, and b.) wasn't afraid of offending part of his constituency.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If you think everyone who wants Columbus, OH to continue to exist with that name, for instance, is "implicitly defending the man" then that is your own issue.
I invoke Obama because he is a similarly reasonable Democrat and generally admirable guy.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)and you agree that town names can be changed. This implies that if the people of that town do not want to change the name, then they want to continue the honor (or they have not thought about the issue at all).
Obama had political constraints that we mortals do not have. Obama had to be careful not to raise issues that would lose voters for the Dems.
Midwestern Democrat
(790 posts)everything with Columbia in its name should be renamed? The District of Columbia? Columbia Pictures? Columbia University? Columbia, South Carolina? CBS is an acronym for Columbia Broadcasting System - the network's official name until 1974.
EllieBC
(2,833 posts)Who knew Randy Marsh ideas would take off here.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)why not remove Columbus monuments. Also, no need to have a national holiday for that a slaver like Columbus.
jcmaine72
(1,772 posts)I probably would've received a better reception at Breitbart for daring to point out the obvious about his legacy.
Bradshaw3
(7,333 posts)Is saying the English and French were worse a defense of Columbus and Spanish atrocities? Are making equivalencies with other subjugation of peoples a defense? Seems like it to me.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)I am criticising presentism. That is all.
comradebillyboy
(9,942 posts)is well illustrated in this thread. Times change. In his time Columbus was a hero in Spain. Hell he was a hero in the US until maybe 20 years ago. Colonialism was perfectly acceptable until the mid 20th century. History needs to examined in the context of what was happening at the time. By modern standards the Romans were genocidal monsters, but every city in the Rhine valley has a statue celebrating the Romans bringing grapes and civilization to Germany.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)To point out the absurdity (an excellent description of this behavior) results in condemnation and accusations of bigotry. We see it everywhere from the media to academia where colleges and universities would rather scrap curriculum than have honest discussion about academic rigor, intellectual honest and the importance of context when evaluating historical events and individuals.
nocalflea
(1,387 posts)Screw historical context, it's all about feelings and who did what to whom.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Feelings. The root of all confirmation bias. Why bother with reason and objective analysis when one can just state something is true because it feels true.
nocalflea
(1,387 posts)There were some bad hombres living back then.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)We have been busy in this country removing memorials to slavers, why do we keep the ones to Columbus?
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Interject logic into this absurd argument. Colonization ain't nice. We all reap the rewards. The native American way of life was lost and America was created. Shall the Irish seek to destroy the Coliseum in Rome because they conquered the Gauls?
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Why do we have a holiday for a slaver like Columbus?
Polly Hennessey
(6,406 posts)in the American West. Oh, heck, let's all leave and go back to Europe. I hear Cornwall is a nice place to live. I mean, after all, we are responsible for our ancestors conduct. No more Columbus, Ohio, or America. Try to remember for whom America was named.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,197 posts)is how I learned it..............
Polly Hennessey
(6,406 posts)I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.
Polly Hennessey
(6,406 posts)I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.
standingtall
(2,768 posts)except for those who are playing right into the hands of the right wing who claim liberals and progressives are getting extreme with this kind of stuff. Was over 500 years ago and he never even set foot on North America only the Bahamas.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Wanted to add that.
Why do we think Columbus is suddenly such a hot topic?
Towlie
(5,264 posts)standingtall
(2,768 posts)unless they get a day off of work for it which most people don't.

Coventina
(26,308 posts)
rockfordfile
(8,637 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)And you're repeating that talking point.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)about things like this.
What about the racism in the white house? The racism of the VP? The healthcare the GOP is trying to take away from Americans?
Those are the issues the GOP and Russia DON'T want us to focus on. Because they know they will lose if Democrats mobilize. They will win if Democrats argue amongst themselves.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Like- Närke Kaggen Stormaktsporter Börbn å Hallon vs Cuvée Armand & Gaston
Tamaki Gold/Signature vs Nishiki sushi rice?
Frederic Rzewski vs Arvo Part?
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)people of that time. And DU has these OPs every year around Columbus Day. Nothing to see here.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,197 posts)We do have to be careful of judging someone from the 15th century with 21st century mores and values. The historical facts are slavery was a common practice among many cultures and societies around the world at that time. There was no other point of view that said 'wait a minute, there may be people already living there who won't welcome your arrival.'
msongs
(66,678 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
tenderfoot This message was self-deleted by its author.
yuiyoshida
(41,425 posts)My ancestors would have treated him like they treated Captain Cook, ...**
On February 14, 1779, Captain James Cook, the great English explorer and navigator, is murdered by natives of Hawaii during his third visit to the Pacific island group.
In 1768, Cook, a surveyor in the Royal Navy, was commissioned a lieutenant in command of the HMS Endeavor and led an expedition that took scientists to Tahiti to chart the course of the planet Venus. In 1771, he returned to England, having explored the coast of New Zealand and Australia and circumnavigated the globe. Beginning in 1772, he commanded a major mission to the South Pacific and during the next three years explored the Antarctic region, charted the New Hebrides, and discovered New Caledonia. In 1776, Cook sailed from England again as commander of the HMS Resolution and Discovery, and in January 1778 he made his first visit to the Hawaiian Islands. He may have been the first European to ever visit the island group, which he named the Sandwich Islands in honor of one of his patrons, John Montague, the Earl of Sandwich.
Cook and his crew were welcomed by the Hawaiians, who were fascinated by the Europeans ships and their use of iron. Cook provisioned his ships by trading the metal, and his sailors traded iron nails for sex. The ships then made a brief stop at Niihau and headed north to look for the western end of a northwest passage from the North Atlantic to the Pacific. Almost one year later, Cooks two ships returned to the Hawaiian Islands and found a safe harbor in Hawaiis Kealakekua Bay.
It is suspected that the Hawaiians attached religious significance to the first stay of the Europeans on their islands. In Cooks second visit, there was no question of this phenomenon. Kealakekua Bay was considered the sacred harbor of Lono, the fertility god of the Hawaiians, and at the time of Cooks arrival the locals were engaged in a festival dedicated to Lono. Cook and his compatriots were welcomed as gods and for the next month exploited the Hawaiians good will. After one of the crewmen died, exposing the Europeans as mere mortals, relations became strained. On February 4, 1779, the British ships sailed from Kealakekua Bay, but rough seas damaged the foremast of the Resolution, and after only a week at sea the expedition was forced to return to Hawaii.
The Hawaiians greeted Cook and his men by hurling rocks; they then stole a small cutter vessel from the Discovery. Negotiations with King Kalaniopuu for the return of the cutter collapsed after a lesser Hawaiian chief was shot to death and a mob of Hawaiians descended on Cooks party. The captain and his men fired on the angry Hawaiians, but they were soon overwhelmed, and only a few managed to escape to the safety of the Resolution. Captain Cook himself was killed by the mob. A few days later, the Englishmen retaliated by firing their cannons and muskets at the shore, killing some 30 Hawaiians. The Resolution and Discovery eventually returned to England.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/captain-cook-killed-in-hawaii
Alea
(706 posts)I doubt there's a Human DNA strand on the planet that can't be traced back to ancestors that did something shitty to other people.
Iggo
(47,316 posts)This is not trying to make you feel guilty for Columbus' atrocities.
Alea
(706 posts)and I don't care about something that happened 500 years ago. I do care that while we are tearing down statues, our political opponents are winning elections.
Iggo
(47,316 posts)if you live in the western hemisphere, you walk on the footsteps of the first people who developed this land
Alea
(706 posts)and morality has changed over the centuries. Culture has changed, mostly for the better.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)It's good for Russia when Democrats are arguing about things like... Christopher Columbus.
What do you think about Amerigo Vespucci?
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)students with for years and years. We need to get real fucking honest.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)See Hamilton Russian disinformaiton dashboard.
Also see articles like this from Russian propaganda news outlets:
https://www.rt.com/usa/403113-columbus-statue-vandalized-central-park/
So do you still think that Dems arguing about this has nothing to do with Russia? GOP and Russia win when we argue.
Focus on racism in the white house, in the VP, on healthcare, on 2018. Unify and work.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Link to tweet
Seems like Putin is weak and that's why he's lashing out at the west.
We just need to resist division, focus on the attacks on our democracy and move forward.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,425 posts)not sure where it is, probably near Columbus Blvd, which heads straight from Fisherman's Wharf to the TransAmerica Pyramid Building...
its NEAR COIT TOWER...
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)We don't care about Columbus and this distraction because we have our hands full as it is. This is really the first time I've heard of this "outrage" and it seems pretty convenient as a distraction. Get back to us all after we have the Russian crap settled and Trump is in jail. We only have X amount of outrage to spare right now.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I'm pissed about that. It means I have to buy snow tires. It means I have to shovel snow. And she was warned not to eat anything while in Hades. I mean, it's not like she didn't know any better.
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)


ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)If this is the first time you have heard about what Columbus did, I believe you are not very well informed.
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)Just like these other pot stirrers
I have other things I'm concerned with re: living people. Columbus and Lee have both been dead many years
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)On the other hand, you only have 1400 posts, so perhaps someone with more might say the same thing about you!
Heck, in a few months I might have more posts than you, then whose opinion will really count?
Next time, try making an argument instead of an ad hominem...
musicblind
(4,484 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)I am not interested in post-counts. I am interested in re-naming Columbus Day. I have laid out my arguments, and I am willing to discuss them if you wish.
If you wish to talk about how I have fewer posts than you or someone else, I think you should start a new thread since mine is about Columbus Day.
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)The difference is I am not trying to distract from the really important things the way you and others are. Funny thing, you all have low post counts....
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Furthermore, DU was abuzz lately with posts about Confederate statues, would you also tell all of those commenters (me included) that they are wasting everyone's time and that there are more important issues than mere statues?
Turbineguy
(36,607 posts)of outrage fatigue.
I don't know which outrage to go with.
Sneederbunk
(13,724 posts)to dispense with the holiday all together. Too many people want a day off. Even the opponents.
demosincebirth
(12,482 posts)have done things any differently? We don't seem to remember the era in which these discoveries were made.
demosincebirth
(12,482 posts)Iggo
(47,316 posts)
romanic
(2,841 posts)Same here.
melman
(7,681 posts)And neither do you.
Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
tenderfoot
(8,371 posts)Historic NY
(37,245 posts)Hispaniola, Cuba, Bahamas, but not here....
[link:http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/09/us/columbus-landed-somewhere-else-maybe.html|
Poor Amerigo Vespucci gets left out in the cold.
longship
(40,416 posts)So hold your tongue.
jcmaine72
(1,772 posts)I got two hides, personally attacked, and then accused of being a Russian spy for daring to speak the truth about Columbus on this board. I'm still at a loss.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)you can condemn any person or any entity using such application. Greater things to take action on today if you care about NOW
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Where is "here"?
I doubt it is DU.
Bradshaw3
(7,333 posts)but there are certainly a determined emotional few. It's strange but it certainly hits a nerve for some, whether it's religious, ethnic reasons I'm not sure.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)was living, was never truly "discovered" by a later explorer? Time to re-write a lot of books!
milestogo
(16,827 posts)at the time that they lived.
EX500rider
(9,797 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Columbus actually took slaves, and we want to have a holiday for him?
I would call that bizarre, aye.
milestogo
(16,827 posts)and all of them believed women are inferior to men. We aren't celebrating the values that were later rejected. We are celebrating their achievements.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Almost all the signers of the declaration of Independence were slave owners , 41 of 56.
Game. Set. Match.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Sometimes called Presidents Day.
You're Welcome
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)As you mention, the day is mostly called "President's Day". Thus, it is no longer really an honoring of Washington, although it was initially.
That said, "President's Day" is actually a good illustration of my point, which is that "Columbus Day" could easily be re-named in order to revoke the honoring of the man, and instead honor something more positive.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)It's Washington's Birthday.
And your claims have been all over the place. You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support). You want to change the entire meaning of the day, which is wrong to do.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)"You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support)."
I also never once said it shouldn't. In fact, it looks like you and me support the exact same solution: re-naming Columbus Day.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But in no way, shape, or form would I want this day changed. It is sad here on DU the people that think the day is for Columbus. Of course it's not. It was made a national holiday to win the Italian vote back east because they generally treated us like shit here.
The largest mass lynching in America victims were not black, they were Sicilian. Teddy Roosevelt called it a good start. We were interred (even Joe DiMaggio's parents were made an example of) They forbade us to speak our language. Rockefeller indentured us as did the railroads. The Irish would not let us in our own Churches and we had to worship in the basement. They called us greasers, dago, wop, and garlic eaters
Even here on DU anyone with an Italian surname is called mafia. They sneered Scalia calling him "Fat Tony", an obvious mafia reference. A well known posters here referred to Scaramucci as a "goomba". All that shit is allowed here.
Why is it on this country that a race of people who ruled the world TWICE, brought us our form of government, the Renaissance, great scientists, and an cuisine that is one of the top in the world (most of french cooking was taken from the piemontese), but all we can do here, on DU is make mafia jokes. It's allowed.
Anyway, It's our day, and it should remain our day. Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)"Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it."
I didn't think this needed to be stated explicitly. I thought it was obvious that a slaver like Columbus would make a bad mascot for any group of people.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)So they assume.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Also, my memory isn't so hot, but I think in grade school (in the 80s and 90s) the focus was on Columbus (and the "discovery" and not on a general Italian-American theme.
I did like the idea of an "Indigenous People's Day", but an "Italian-American Day" works as well and is at least consistent with how the holiday was originally created.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But I seen many that think it much fuss about nonsense that cannot help The Democratic Party. I fall into that camp myself.
I have also read others post that question the motives in OPs such as this.
Have a nice evening.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)About what Columbus did or did not do.
Get over it people.
Ferrets are Cool
(20,459 posts)He was a mass murderer and a pedophile. This nation should be ashamed of "honoring" him with a national holiday.
https://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2014/10/truth-about-columbus-day-why-are-we-celebrating
Just a snippet of the truth:
Over time, Columbus real actions in the Americas have been replaced by a warm-and-fuzzy coloring book story of a bold and brave explorer who set out to discover a new world. But in reality, as we have learned from writings of Christopher Columbus own men, the bold explorer raped, pillaged, enslaved, and slaughtered people just to get rich.
One of Columbus crewmen, Miguel Cuneo, wrote about the scene when Columbus arrived in Hispaniola for the second time, and thousands of Tainos, or what were referred to as Indians, came out to greet Columbus' ships. Cuneo wrote, When our caravels...were to leave for Spain, we gathered...one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians...For those who remained, we let it be known [to the Spaniards] in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done.
Cuneo also wrote that he took his own sex slave, a beautiful young girl, who in his own words, resisted with all her strength, leaving him with no choice but to, thrash her mercilessly and rape her.
Columbus eventually started up a global child-sex-slave trade, shipping off Indians to all corners of the globe. He even bragged about it to a friend in a letter written in 1500, saying that, A hundred castellanoes (a Spanish coin) are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten (years old) are now in demand.
Hekate
(88,052 posts)...that serve no one.
Raine
(30,215 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Mighty progressive of you.
Hekate
(88,052 posts)...that has not been soaked in blood at some point. Not anywhere.
At least we try in America -- and we do progress, however slowly. Women, who led the Abolitionist movement to free the slaves, can now vote too. You can't just go down to the public square or the docks and pick up a few slaves. We are a deeply flawed country -- but we keep moving forward.
My background is History, and ultimately Mythology/ Depth Psychology. I remember more than one person in my classes pondering why anyone with a religion as rich and beautiful as Hinduism would even consider converting to Christianity. Just off the top of my head I said: the caste system and bride burnings. They were shocked -- they had never considered the effects of the caste system and they thought I was making it up about bride burnings, which remain a persistent and pervasive problem in India. China a century ago? Footbinding. Africa today? Female genital mutilation. And just to forestall any accusations on that front, I am not even Christian any more, so that is not the basis of my argument.
I am a lifelong Democrat, and as women a century ago would have put it, I believe that "progress and moral suasion" will effect the changes we seek.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)but why do we need a national holiday named after a guy who actually stole people from America and made them slaves? You have not explained that yet.
clutterbox1830
(395 posts)RandySF
(53,897 posts)Raine
(30,215 posts)I'm not getting all aggravated over what was acceptable in the 1400.
brooklynite
(91,777 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)But the problem is not with a day off, as the holiday could easily be re-named.
nini
(16,660 posts)However, tis the season. Thanksgiving/pilgrims and the war on Christmas are coming too. Wooo hhoooooo.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)from today.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)How do you "discover" what already IS?
Buns_of_Fire
(16,843 posts)
The Columbo statue (in Budapest, Hungary):

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
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johnp3907
(3,697 posts)bluepen
(620 posts)
Look around. Theres plenty of things (that actually matter) to be outraged about.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Way to make the right-wing argument!
bluepen
(620 posts)Got it.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)We can attempt to solve more than one problem at a time in this country.
In your opinion, which problem should we concentrate upon while allowing all other problems to go unsolved?
bluepen
(620 posts)But I wasnt counting on a straw-man being thrown in at the end. Guess I was giving you too much credit.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)That said, you still have not explained why we must ignore every issue but the "most important" until that "most important" issue is solved.
Or, do you agree with me that we can focus on more than one issue at a time?
Or are you arguing something else? Please clarify.
bluepen
(620 posts)Not sure whats unclear in my original post. Maybe read the words carefully, think for more than 1.5 seconds before making a simplistic knee-jerk response, and you wont have to have the point spoon-fed to you.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)As human beings, we here at DU are capable of trying to solve more than one problem at a time. For instance, there are posts on DU about Trump AND about guns! Those are two separate issues that both need solving, and yet somehow we are able to think about both.
If you have an issue that you think is more important than Columbus Day, I suggest you make a thread about it. Once you do that, perhaps I will comment on your thread. I promise that I will not give a useless comment like "there are more important issues than the one you are writing about".
If you have no constructive comments about Columbus Day, then I suggest you merely stop responding to Columbus Day posts.
bluepen
(620 posts)Columbus Day is not. Its a marginally (at BEST) symbolic topic that has zero substantive impact on whats happening in our country and in the world. Just something for people to complain about. Thats my view, and Ill express it without the slightest concern as to who approves because yes, Ill point it out when people are willingly distracted from the real issues, such as the ones you mentioned.
Thats all.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)Symbolism is important, though we agree that there are more important, concrete issues to be solved.
Once again, we can certainly work to solve multiple problems at the same time. At the same time, we can post on DU about sports, cooking, gardening, the weather, etc., all without prejudice to the more urgent work we wish to accomplish.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)is they are old and dont care to evolve ethically
obamanut2012
(25,499 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good, never once realizing what is actually being engaged and solemnized on the individual level, but rather projecting their own abstract principles onto an imaginary whole.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)My point was about the honor conferred by a national holiday, not any individual reverence.
You are free to revere the slaver Columbus, but please don't insist on having a national holiday in his honor. He was a dirtbag.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Willie Pep
(841 posts)One of the major factors behind seeking independence from Great Britain was the desire to expand into Native American territory to the west. The Declaration of Independence mentions "Indian Savages" directly.
This doesn't even touch on Thanksgiving or Washington's Birthday and the potential controversies around Native American policy and slavery that those holidays imply.
I think we can celebrate holidays and understand the often harsh realities of history at the same time.
ExciteBike66
(2,180 posts)"Independence" is a concept, morally neutral.
"Columbus" was a man who took slaves from their homes and sent them to Spain.