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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI have lost much respect for Mormons in getting to know Romney
I always thought of Mormons as hard-working, thrifty people with a strong moral code.
The revelations of the ethics of the Romney family have made me realize that my perceptions were not correct. The Romneys rival the Bushes for fraud, graft, deceit and un-Americanism.
How did a pillar of the Mormon church ascend, with all that corruption going on?
Who are rank and file Mormons, anyway? Is the hoarding of foodstuffs that they do in any way connected to Romney's hoarding of money?
I apologize in advance to any Mormon DU-ers. I seek enlightenment.
arbusto_baboso
(7,162 posts)One of the reasons I left that "church" is the rank materialism I saw among members. Most are no better than Mitt. Sure, there are exceptions. But largely, mormons have a shallow sex-centered view of "morality".
There's a reason why Utah is the nation's capital, both for anti-depressant use, and for consumer fraud...
Erose999
(5,624 posts)ex-communicated mormons, but I thought they were widely regarded as a cult by pretty much everyone.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....with the magic underwear etc. But I never thought of them as corrupt people, but rather like I think of pioneer stock who practiced thrift and old values.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)but the church is like any other oversized corporation: the guys at the top are corrupt, ruthless or both, and the regular rules don't apply to them.
Rambis
(7,774 posts)overheard while the loading gym equipment in Colorado- All the guys loading stuff were Mormons who's wives were living on government assistance of one form or another. They were bragging about it!
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)Yes, it happened a long ago, but two things: 1. the LDS leadership still says it was all the horrible brutal Indians who did it and 2. the LDS Leadership still has that type of insular, CYA mentality, very much not too thrilled with outsiders. They remind me of Scientologists in that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the BakerFancher emigrant wagon train, at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks culminated on September 11, 1857 with the mass slaughter of the emigrant party by the Iron County district of the Utah Territorial Militia and some local Native Americans.
The wagon traincomposed almost entirely of families from Arkansaswas bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory during a turbulent period later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the BakerFancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train. The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of Utah's Mormon settlers (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or LDS Church). Intending to give the appearance of Native American aggression, their plan was to arm some Southern Paiute Native Americans and persuade them to join with a larger party of their own militiamendisguised as Native Americansin an attack.
During the initial assault on the wagon train, the emigrants fought back and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men, and had probably discovered who their attackers really were. This resulted in an order by militia commander William H. Dame for the emigrants' annihilation. Running low on water and provisions, the emigrants allowed a party of militiamen to enter their camp, who assured them of their safety and escorted them out of their hasty fortification. After walking a distance from the camp, the militiamen, with the help of auxiliary forces hiding nearby, attacked the emigrants. Intending to leave no witnesses of complicity by Mormons in the attacks, and to prevent reprisals that would further complicate the Utah War, the perpetrators killed all the adults and older children (totaling about 120 men, women, and children). Seventeen children, all younger than seven, were spared. Following the massacre the perpetrators hastily buried the victims, leaving their bodies vulnerable to wild animals and the climate. Local families took in the surviving children, and many of the victims' possessions were auctioned off. Investigations, temporarily interrupted by the American Civil War, resulted in nine indictments during 1874. Of the men indicted, only John D. Lee was tried in a court of law. After two trials in the Utah Territory, Lee was convicted by a jury and executed. Today historians attribute the massacre to a combination of factors including both war hysteria and strident Mormon teachings. Scholars still debate whether senior Mormon leadership, including Brigham Young, directly instigated the massacre or if responsibility lies with the local leaders of southern Utah.
<snip>
benld74
(9,911 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)I think it's safe to say Mitt has almost singlehandedly washed it all away...
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I performed with Regional Honors Choirs in high school that were better, and I mean that in all seriousness.
The Mormon Tabernacle Choir or whatever it's called sounds like a bunch of soloist divas trying to sing as an ensemble.
No thanks.
Mopar151
(10,003 posts)Aren't complimentary to the Morman culture
Response to grasswire (Original post)
crazyjoe This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jayce Cox
(34 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:24 PM - Edit history (1)
Your whole premise is crazy. Do we hold all United Methodist in low regard because of George W. Bush, are all Quakers anti social communist plotters because of Nixon. Romney in no way affects how I practice my Mormon faith. I have a years supply of food stored in my basement not because I'm getting ready for my episode of Hoarders, but because my family has endured times of job loss and were able to survive without seeking help, and at other times have been able to help neighbors (all of whom are not Mormons) during difficult times in their lives. I am a "rank and file" mormon and a democrat. Does Harry Reid being a mormon help to balance out Brother Romney's shortcomings? In this new era of anonymous posting and commenting the dialog has really hit some new lows. Would you say this out loud in mixed company. The apology in advance seems so sincere.
Bless your Heart Grasswire
Jayce Cox
Helena, Montana
Op-Ed http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765592705/It-is-OK-to-disagree-not-dehumanize.html
Welcome to DU!
Agreed, OP is working out a bigoted stereotype.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)What did I say?
I had a fairly good opinion of Mormons until Romney demonstrated a scurrilous and meanspirited ethics. I asked if his ethics were typical of Mormons.
How is that a "bigoted stereotype"?
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)On the other hand, believing men (and only men) get their own planets when they die is clearly bonkers. Same with God making coffee and then not wanting us to drink it. Or the really offensive crap about black people or Native Americans.
I have a terrible opinion of Mormonism but I don't judge individual Mormons until I meet them and I don't judge the whole faith based on any given person who says they practice it.
Debate the faith on its tenants and on the actions of the organisation not on its individual practitioners (who may not be representative in any way of the wider community).
_ed_
(1,734 posts)Hardly the same as a rank-and-file member.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)Do the actions of pedophile priests tell you anything at all about what kind of person she is?
Was everyone in David Koresh's cult the same as him?
Of course not. Good, well-intentioned people get sucked into corrupt organisations. The actions of one (or even many or even the leaders) in those organisations don't tell you "everything you need to know about all Mormons/Catholics/Boy Scouts/Southerners/etc." That's the definition of bigotry and prejudice.
"I have lost respect for (all) Mormons because of Romney."
"I used to think Mormons were hardworking and moral (but now I don't because of Romney)."
Fill in any other group for "Mormons" and any other person for "Romney" and tell me those are not bigoted statements.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)I made the point that Romney was a Bishop. Was your granny a bishop?
If Mitt Romney was a Mormon with a position of leadership in 1978, he was an active member of a racist organization. It's not bigotry to point that out. It's also not bigotry to question others' associations.
If your granny puts money in the collection plate, it is being used to pay out billions of dollars to the victims of Catholic child rape. It's not the same as raping kids and covering it up, but her material and emotional support is used to prop up this disgusting organization.
You can't "fill in any other group" because religion is a set of ideas that you believe and an organization that you choose to belong to. You can't do that if you're gay, because being gay is not a choice. Religion is a choice -- a choice that I'll criticize anytime I damn well please.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)was that Romney is the equivalent of the pedophile priests and my grandmother was the equivalent of other Mormons. She goes to church because she's done it her whole life. It's her community. Since her kids moved away, it's the local church that looks in on her and makes sure she's doing OK and gives her a reason to get out of bed most days. I'm sure she does put money in the collection plate and I'm sure some of it goes to pay off child rape victims (just like some of your taxes go toward paying for landmines that cripple children). The church does other things as well and if she chooses to be a member after balancing the good with the bad that's her call.
I'm an atheist and I'm sure as shit not here to defend the Catholic church (or any other church for that matter). Religion is a set of ideas, but it's also wrapped up in culture and ethnicity. There's an even better example down thread. Would it be OK to say "I used to think Jews were smart until I met Joe Liebermen"? Of course not. So why is it fine to say "I used to think Mormons were hardworking until I met Romney"? Any "I used to think x group were y trait until I met z individual" sentence is clearly expressing both a stereotype in the first part and a broad brush in the second.
And like I said in a previous post, criticise religion all you want. I criticise it all the time. But don't criticise individual members of that religion based on behaviour exhibited by other individuals just because they happen to belong to the same group. That's not criticising "choice"; it's displaying prejudice and the assumption of guilt by association.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)It's no more fair to tar rank-and-file Mormons with the Rmoney brush than it is to blame lay Catholics for the sins of the pedophile priests.
treestar
(82,383 posts)How is that better than doing so to any other group?
There are men who commit violent crimes, so my opinion of men is lower. Isn't that the same?
Caribou Barbie is an idiot, so I think a lot less of Alaska.
JanMichael
(24,897 posts)on the church. We learned almost too much; we are basing our dislike of the institution on the church itself. The self indulgent male hierarchy is just icing on that ugly cupcake.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)You can choose to be a Mormon or not. And "Alaska" is a place, not something you join and tithe to.
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)....Strategy" why shouldn't it be rational that at the least the de facto racism throughout the organizations (cause it was forced to change it's racial edicts and didn't do it by will of doctrine) is coming through via rMoney?
Thx for the conversation.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)that are commonly found in it's members.
If Romney was so out of the norm and non representative of their overall value system, why are they, the rank and file almost to a man, so hot and heavy after Romney for President?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)JanMichael
(24,897 posts)Your church has made it so far by maintaining tight control at the top...much like the Catholic church, but only for about 170 years or so. The other posters were correct in that Donny and Marie, and the proximity to ski areas made the LDS seem "mainstream," and even wholesome.
Other than the rank and file helping their neighbors, building gyms in the churches, etc...there is not much more to recommend that anyone join. It is patriarchal, and still maintains the vestiges of racism that it was founded upon. I have been told that many of the native Americans in Utah and surrounding states cannot stand the Mormon church after Joseph Smith used them as a prop in his insane prophecies. I do not know if that is true or not--- but, it does have the ring of possible truth.
Furthermore, you don't see too many Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians or whatever MAINSTREAM denomination you would like to pick posting on several large forums about "escaping." Literally.....escaping. Many people CHOOSE to leave their church...and many people have emotional scars from their church, but few have to "escape."
You sound like a decent person; I am not trying to jump down your throat completely, but in your first couple of posts, asking for an apology for something MANY people have been thinking is ludicrous. I have very little respect for your church, and zero for the Book of Mormon.
As far as the money goes, I would say this article sums it up:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money
Jayce Cox
(34 posts)I was referring to the pre-emptive apology in the original post.
soccer1
(343 posts)All churches have members with all types of character issues for better or for worse.......
scorpiogirl
(717 posts)Mormons consider good morals doing things such as wearing the undergarment, not smoking, drinking, etc. She assures me it has nothing to with anything the rest of us, at least here, would consider moral or just. Something to consider anyway.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)or as the Mormons call him, "prophet" or "fortune-seeker"...
He started the religion by telling everyone that he had a conversation with an angel named Moroni, when nooooooobody else was watching, and of course Moroni told him that he was destined to be a great leader and prophet. Using information from Moroni, he "found" a big stack of golden plates, which he allowed nooooobody else to look at, and translated them by looking at them through magic gems, that again, nooooooobody else saw, and used these supposed golden plates and magic gems to bring the world the Book of Mormon.
Yeah, and I've got beachfront property in the Utah desert I'd like to sell you...
Iggy
(1,418 posts)SCAM... see my post downstream re: the Mormon business empire
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)There were several documented versions...not sure why he finally picked this one?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)If the Romney is an example of what being a Mormon is then they have nothing to offer.
REP
(21,691 posts)I'm loud and proud about what I think of the RCC (not much) yet I know that the vast majority individuals who are Catholic are decent people. The LDS/RLDS Churches have some unusual beliefs, but not any more unusual than belief in literal transubstantiation or a number of mainstream religious beliefs. The official Church hierarchy supports some terrible things (both RCC and LDS here), and condemning that hierarchy/officials is appropriate.
I've known many LDS and RLDS members who are very liberal, and don't find that at odds with their religion. I have my own colorful opinions about Smith, his Church, etc but an unwavering stand on letting people believe any damn fool thing they want (as long as they don't force it on others). Any group is made up of very good people, some very bad people, and a lot somewhere inbetween. Rmoney falls into the "very bad" camp.
atreides1
(16,094 posts)If the vast majority were "decent" people...then they would be trying to change things. Not happening!
You cannot be a decent person and do nothing, history has shown us that. Truly decent people stand up and fight
As long as the hierarchy is reaping in the tithes, then those "decent" people are responsible for the terrible things being done...I believe it's called aiding and abetting!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)to a new level however. Religious belief requires such a suspension of logic in order to give oneself over to some pretty outlandish superstitions, practices, and stories. I'm definitely one of those who mocks, especially religious hypocrites.
So the Rmoney's Mormon faith doesn't necessarily jump out at me as singularly special on the scale of cultishness, weirdness or bizarro behavior.
What DOES ring my bells however about Mormonism is the "Lying for the Lord" bit (http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord) which means Mittsters can realistically lie about everything as long as he can justify it. Since Mitt is arguably the leading Mormon personality in the US at the moment, presumably he can lie about just about anything to keep up appearances and pretensions.
That goes beyond simple hypocrisy and into fraud.
Honestly, I believe Mitt has utilized the "Lying for the Lord" principle all his life. He's used it to be greedy (its to tithe more to the temple!), he's used it to leverage power (reflects on Mormons in general), he's used it for fraud (Cayman Islands tax evasions of course!) - virtually anything can be rationalized away as being done for the good of the church.
The Mormon principle of lying as a religious precept is what's alarming, and I believe Mitt takes it to a whole new level. THAT reflects badly on Mormons in general.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)His religion not only allows him to lie but evidently it's OK to make a profit by hurting people in the process by taking away their jobs so he can be rich and President. No wonder he's so religious.
I suspect though, that Romney's Mormonism is not every Mormon's Mormonism. Just like all other religions. For example, lots of Christians think that if they're successful and rich it means God favors them, so how they get that way is therefore OK since God allowed them to make their wealth by taking jobs or whatever away from others. It's pure logic. If God didn't want them to use other people to get rich then God wouldn't allow it. See?
sadbear
(4,340 posts)And my experience with his VERY LARGE in-law family has me convinced that material accumulation is a very important part of their faith. Remember, the church gets 10% of ALL their income, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, if they are to be good-standing members. And members not in good standing are often shunned.
JI7
(89,279 posts)uponit7771
(90,367 posts)...reason that a person of color should expect more.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)...would be one explanation for their very different perspectives on how to treat human beings.
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)RFKHumphreyObama
(15,164 posts)Morris Udall, one of the most liberal congressmen around a few decades ago, was a Mormon. Jon Huntsman, one of the few moderate-to-liberal Republicans around who has publicly called out the Republicans on their extremism and is boycotting the GOP Convention because of it and who has done a lot of good work in political and public life, is a Mormon. There are more than a few rank-and-file Mormons who will be voting for President Obama this time around
If we are to judge all religions and non-religions by the actions of a few of their public figures, it really doesn't leave us with anywhere to go
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)If we can't stop quarreling over religious differences like that, then how can we get things done?
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)They liked to smoke weed and drink beers like everyone else. I have also known some uptight racist Mormons.
I don't think you can judge all Mormons or stereotype them in any way. It's no dumber than any other religion.
There is enough legit stuff to attack Romney about without resorting to religion.
eShirl
(18,505 posts)does knowing that tarnish your opinion of Quakers?
Iggy
(1,418 posts)is Tricky Dick was a very poor example of a Quaker.
the Quakers are passivists... Nixon authorized our Air Force to bomb the hell out of
Cambodia... killing untold number of innocent people
eShirl
(18,505 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)--this year was large, and very well received.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I am not one to judge an entire faith, or any other group by the actions of one of them. It's just not right.
Iggy
(1,418 posts)Biz Week article on the Mormon business empire? if not, everyone needs to read this.
They just built a $2 Billion dollar megamall across from the main "church" in SLC, yes, that's
Billion with a "B".
there's something very wrong here in terms of this "church" being tax exempt.
Reading the article, one can surmise there's a definite culture of secrecy in the "church", and I
think it's fair to assume that is partly where Rmoney is getting his desire for secrecy regarding
just what he is up to financially.
there's NO WAY I want this business cult, sorry that's the way I see it-- running our nation.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money#r=read
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Real charities don't have castles!
Not bad for paying zero taxes!
Jayce Cox
(34 posts)Wow you got us! We have big churches, like the Manti, Utah Temple pictured above. Shall I post a picture of the Cathederal that dominates my home town.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Another "righteous charity" with castles.
OregonBlue
(7,755 posts)One for other Mormons and one for the rest of us. They have no qualms about screwing anybody as long as that person is not a Mormon. But then, I have a prejudice against a cult that believes the Garden of Eden is in Missouri. Sorry.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)My brother married into it, and he and his LDS wife name one of their daughters Missouri, and (wait for it) the other one Eden. I made that connection just now after reading your post.
OregonBlue
(7,755 posts)uponit7771
(90,367 posts)...care less about who the step on...you're lower than they and the means meet the ends
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)The idea that supernatural things happened thousands of years ago but magically they don't today, is no less ridiculous than the idea that supernatural things happened hundreds of years ago but magically they don't today.
dembotoz
(16,864 posts)being a sociopath taints any other label
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)...aka for the n word.
The mormons have a history of de facto racism through the organization
flamingdem
(39,332 posts)or the Quakers... I think Mitt has changed that, and as you say he has reduced the respect for the Mormon church and made it clear that $ acquisition is their number one value.
I'm surprised the wingnut Christian religious crowd isn't more negative towards him.
Freddie
(9,275 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,917 posts)He was raised agnostic and become a Morrmon in college. Here is a quote of him talking about his faith in regards to politics (source wikipedia where footnotes are provided):
"In a 2001 interview he said, "I think it is much easier to be a good member of the Church and a Democrat than a good member of the Church and a Republican." He went on to say that the Democrats' emphasis on helping others, as opposed to what he considers Republican dogma to the contrary, is the reason he's a Democrat.[61] He delivered a speech at Brigham Young University to about 20,000 students on October 9, 2007, in which he expressed his opinion that Democratic values mirror Mormon values.[62][63] Several Republican Mormons in Utah have contested his faith because of his politics, such as his statements that the church's backing of California's Proposition 8 wasted resources.[64]"
Harry has a long and good record on civil rights and on womens equality. I think he fits the first sentance of your OP fairly well.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)They remind me a lot of the Catholic church except their palace is in Utah and isn't quite so grand.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Would that be an acceptable statement? You don't see any problem at all with your subject line?
Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #47)
JanMichael This message was self-deleted by its author.
JanMichael
(24,897 posts)but, others here are knocking themselves out to be "nice" when it's obvious that the OP referred to the institution as a whole. As in "Mormons."
Even more interesting are the trolls....really? Seriously? Take a freaking good look at the responses and tell me if you don't see a couple of fascinating responses.
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Institutions evolve.
eridani
(51,907 posts)There are all kinds of progressive people who grew up in reactionary religious traditions. Some get sick of if and quit; others don't want to give up the connection with their roots and decide to fight the good fight from inside. I'm not going to sit in judgement on either choice.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)That's his real religious devotion, the rest is window dressing.
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)It is homophobic, misogynistic, quite anti science, extreme racism was public policy and doctrine until recently, etc. If you live in Utah, forget about getting anywhere professionally if you aren't LDS, or even having too many friends.
I know other religions and denominations have this, too, aInd I have no respect for them, either, as institutions. I am not referring to individuals.
Donny and Marie were terrific PR for them. I mean that.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)then you will go back to liking Mormons again.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Wow, that's pretty bigoted of you. Do you base your opinion of a upon one man? Do you base your opinion of Christianity upon one person?
So why are you doing it with Romney and Mormons?
Raine
(30,541 posts)I've ever met, she wasn't anything like Rmoney
Bigmack
(8,020 posts).. with some pretty weird beliefs. Virgin births, transubstantiation, e-meters, mikvahs, kaparot, veils..all like that.
I just ask my believer friends if they want to vote for somebody who wears magic underwear, believes that Satan and Jesus are brothers, and that it's OK to lie..for the Lord, of course.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)turned water into wine, and rose from the dead after three days.
Is that really more believable than Mormonism?
_ed_
(1,734 posts)All are irrational nonsense. However, Christianity has the benefit of age. We know Mormonism was invented by a convicted fraud named Joseph Smith. There are court records of his fraud convictions.
Democrats_win
(6,539 posts)All religions disappoint me. They are not even close to being what they should be, acting like they should act. I guess that, for people, Jesus' words have to be the final say on this. It's horrifying to realize that people are still dying in the name of these so-called religions. Nevertheless, Revelations does suggest that the sins of religion, when stacked one on top of another, have reached as high as heaven. This means God has seen their sins and God will have the final say in the end.