Wonkette: Does Dressing Modestly Keep Sexual Predators Away? Ooh, A Tough One!

[ehrnst]

Earlier this week, Mayim Bialik caused thousands of women across the country to burn their be-flowered hats in disgust when she penned an article for the New York Times suggesting that the reason why — unlike the victims of Harvey Weinstein — she had never been sexually harassed or assaulted in Hollywood was because she dressed “modestly.” It was, I think, especially enraging because — as Blossom — she did inspire a generation of quirky, feministy women. It was also enraging because she was wrong.
...........................................................................

The only responsibility women have in this situation is to not put the blame on other women for sexual harassment and assault, and to make sure the boys they raise understand consent and understand that sexual harassment is not an OK thing for them to be doing.

I feel like I am supposed to be surprised that these arguments are coming from women, but I ain’t. The “dressing modestly will keep you from getting assaulted” argument is one I’ve actually heard more from women than from men. I think it’s because feeling vulnerable to sexual assault or harassment sucks, and those who are vulnerable feel like they need to cling to things that make them feel less vulnerable.

Studies have shown that women on juries are less likely to convict a rapist than men are. I think it’s because women want to believe that there are things they can do to avoid being raped, and thus that the victim somehow brought it upon herself. Believing that victims bring assault upon themselves is, unfortunately, the way a lot of women cope with being vulnerable to sexual assault. It’s the way they tell themselves, It can’t happen to me.

It’s superstition. It’s a talisman. It’s a St. Christopher medal. It’s bullshit — and harmful bullshit at that.


Read more at https://wonkette.com/624551/does-dressing-modestly-keep-sexual-predators-away-ooh-a-tough-one#qU0tUX10BzLM7GkM.99

[Oneironaut]

1. Sadly, some of the most misogynist things Ive heard were from other women.

We use gendered slurs against each other, excessively judge each other based on appearance alone, and try to enforce the patriarchy against each other.

Radical feminists will usually blame men for this, which is total bs. We are responsible for our own destructive behavior towards other women. Women perpetuate rape culture as well.

[ehrnst]

3. So what do you think the role of men in rape culture is - if women are the ones perpetuating it?

And what do you mean by "radical feminist?"

And the "total BS" descriptor blames other women, doesn't it?

Doesn't being an apologist for men in misogyny count as misogyny as well?

[Oneironaut]

7. You seem to have misunderstood.

Of course men play a majority of the role in rape culture. My point was addressing the idea that men are to blame for womens’ misogyny. I hear a lot of misogyny coming from women as well.

[Jim Beard]

9. Its Misandry.

[Caliman73]

12. No. Misandry is hatred of men.

Oneironaut is (mistakenly in my opinion) stating that women oppress one another in the same way that men, through misogyny, oppress women.

The correct terminology for what Oneironaut is trying to define is internalized oppression, when the marginalized group takes on the and internalizes the language and behaviors of the oppressive group and uses it to judge themselves and other members of their own group. That is not women's fault however. Any of us who are in a marginalized group, have heard and are often inundated with negative messages about ourselves in the dominant discourse. You either have to actively fight against it, or you tend to buy into at least some of what is being presented.

For example. My family came from Mexico in my parent's generation (my mother when she was a child and my father when a teenager), they retain a lot of the culture in language, food, customs, etc... however, there are some in my family (parent's generation) who talk about "illegals" and how "those people" are bad, stealing jobs, criminals, etc.. Even my wife's family (who were undocumented but became citizens) hold those attitudes about other people from their culture and community. They differentiate themselves because they have bought into what is often said about people just like us by society through media and common discourse.

That is internalized oppression, and it will settle in if you do not actively dispute it all the time.

[JHan]

14. great post Caliman ++++

[ehrnst]

20. +1000 (nt)

[Hortensis]

23. Very good! But let's respect religious and conservative WOMEN

enough to at least accept that "internalized oppression" beliefs, which arise from thousands of years of cultural and religious heritage, are very real and that they are these women's own beliefs and traditions.

[Merlot]

57. I can respect women and not their beliefs at the same time.

An how much of a belief is "their own" when they are born into it, their family and social networks, their schools enforce those beliefs? If they aren't allowed to question those beliefs for fear of losing all that they hold dear, how can it actually be "their" belief?

[Hortensis]

58. Your first sentence is in line with what I said.

Last edited Sat Oct 21, 2017, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

The rest, imo, lacks both respect for the choices of other people, is profoundly insulting to women in general, and grossly misrepresents how most women feel. This not Yemen or Iran, but the United States, where women also have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

That many choose the religions of their families and communities should not arouse either contempt or resistance in you. but rather a satisfaction that they and you live in a free nation.

Those who do not respect that others have a right to their beliefs are dangers to freedom, not guarantors of it, no matter what their personal, untested conceits might be.

[Merlot]

60. I don't respect beliefs. I respect people.

Nice twist of words, but I never said people don't have a right to their beileif or faith.

[Hortensis]

64. And yet I felt insulted on behalf of religious women,

even though I've never been one. i do not believe your declaration of respect toward women. These words felt more like a declaration of profound contempt and dismissal to me:

An how much of a belief is "their own" when they are born into it, their family and social networks, their schools enforce those beliefs? If they aren't allowed to question those beliefs for fear of losing all that they hold dear, how can it actually be "their" belief?

Fact is, most people's belief systems are as shallow as your own probably is. Most are well rewarded for choosing their families and friends, and community, and again, what business is it of YOURS to be sticking your insulting nose into THEIR choices?

Imo, that's right up there with right wingers who're trying to stick theirs in your bed. Flip side of the same, insulting, intolerant, potentially dangerous coin.

[ehrnst]

19. Do you think that about feminism?

Or just about when misogyny in men is pointed out by anybody?

Does it threaten you that much?

[ehrnst]

22. So how about this:

If you are a man, you are part of rape culture. I know … that sounds rough. You’re not a rapist, necessarily. But you do perpetuate the attitudes and behaviors commonly referred to as rape culture.

You may be thinking, “Now, hold up, Zaron! You don’t know me, homey! I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let you say I’m some sorta fan of rape. That’s not me, man!”

I totally know how you feel. That was pretty much exactly my response when someone told me I was a part of rape culture. It sounds horrible. But just imagine moving through the world, always afraid you could be raped. That’s even worse! Rape culture sucks for everyone involved. But don’t get hung up on the terminology. Don’t concentrate on the words that offend you and ignore what they’re pointing to — the words “rape culture” aren’t the problem. The reality they describe is the problem.

Men are the primary agents and sustainers of rape culture.

https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c

"Misandry" or truth?

[betsuni]

51. It's true, we gals hate all 3.6 billion men.

Our favorite thing is to get together for Misandry Par-tays to sip box wines and bitterly complain about how icky all men are, all 3.6 billion. On the other hand, boys would never generalize about women after bad experiences, boys are nice and always the victims of mean ladies.

(this is satire)

[Merlot]

59. Thanks for that - I LOVE Crazy Ex Girlfriend!

Waiting anxiously for season 3 to stream.

I know, off topic, but sometimes you gotta laugh!

edit to add: Rachel Bloom is brilliant!

[ehrnst]

18. Think about this

"White people play a majority role in keeping black men in the pipeline from school to prison. My point was addressing the idea that white people are to blame for black people's racism against each other. I hear a lot of white power talk coming from black people."

Do you understand how your post sounds when you replace what you are saying about women with people of color?

[Oneironaut]

38. That's a false equivalency, though.

The idea of white power rhetoric coming from black people is a silly concept, where as women constantly use misogynist slurs against each other and enforce the patriarchy.

That's exactly what Miyam Bialik is doing here. Is she not responsible for her words here? Are her ignorant words here someone else's fault?

[ehrnst]

40. Constantly? Got some issues with women?

[StevieM]

42. The alert on this post is the closest I have ever come to clicking on the circle that says:

"They sent the alert in bad faith, with an intent to disrupt."

I couldn't bring myself to do it. I just said that they have an honest misunderstanding of the post.

[ehrnst]

68. "Misunderstanding" is an excuse for a lot of things.

I appreciate your decision, however.

[still_one]

50. That is a false generalization.

[treestar]

2. That's what every blame the victim statement

is about. The attempt to feel in control to prevent it happening to us.

[Captain Stern]

4. The truth is there are things women can do to reduce their chance of being raped.

It's an ugly truth. It shouldn't be the truth, and in a perfect world it wouldn't be the truth.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any rapists. There also wouldn't be any murderers or thieves.

We can all do things to lessen our chances of being a victim. However, if we don't do those things and become victims, I don't think it means that we, in any way, deserved to be victims. The blame of the crime always falls 100% on the person committing the crime.

I know that if I don't lock my car doors, and someone steals something from my car that it's not my fault. I know that I didn't do anything wrong. The person that did wrong was the one who stole from my car. However, I do lock my car doors because I know that there are people out there that will steal.

I think we should all want to live in a world where there are no victims, and we should all do what we can to make our world that place. But, until that happens we should still all remember that, right now, we live in the world the way it is.....not the way we want it to be.

[ehrnst]

5. That's not what the article is saying is wrong.....

And ***no one*** is saying that people should not take steps to keep themselves safe.

That's a strawman. And an old one.

The article is about fighting the attitude that a woman is deemed at fault whenever she is raped for not taking enough "precautions."

Your response indicates you think that it's saying that women should not ever have to.

Re-read the article.

[Captain Stern]

6. I agree. My response didn't really address what the article was saying.

The fault is mine. I completely missed the 'read more' part at the bottom of the post.

[KitSileya]

10. Tell that to the 98-year old in my town who opened the door when the boy from next door knocked.

Oh, wait, you can't, because he literally raped her to death.



In most cases of rape, any advice on how to avoid rape will not work, because we are not allowed to implement them. If we were to implement your advice, no men can live with any other human beings. No fathers with their daughters, no visiting uncles, no grandfathers, no childhood friends of the parents. No teacher can be alone with a student, no professor either - especially if they are men, but no women with adolescent or teenage boys either. No man can ever be invited to a party. Because that's where most rapes happen. They don't happen in darkened parking lots. They happen on our couches, in our bedrooms, in our classrooms - and they are done by men, and to small extent women, we know or are related to. The greatest deterrent to rape wouldn't be women taking more care - don't you think we take care already? Boy, how condescending of you - but by men being forced 24/7 body cams that documented what they did.

[Captain Stern]

13. You're not responding to what I actually wrote.

Just like my post didn't really respond to what the article said, your post doesn't really respond to mine.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is really anything any of us can do to completely avoid being a victim of a crime...except maybe live in complete isolation from anyone else. However, there are things we can do that lessen our chances of being victims.

[KitSileya]

21. Well, getting women to be more careful hasn't worked.

So how about we work on men instead? How about we (and by we I mean other men, because clearly women telling them about our everyday experiences doesn't work) work on men to make sure they understand that

- women are human beings inherently deserving of respect (not because they are someone's daughter, wife, or mother),

- that men will not respect men who joke about rape, about "women on the rag", about "hysterical" women etc

- that women and men who tell about sexual harassment, sexual assault, catcalling etc should be believed (period. Believed until proven a liar, not the other way around.)

- that men need to read and watch books, films, other media written by and for women so that they can learn the lessons about the opposite gender women are forced to learn by default in this society.

There are many other things too, but let's put the onus on men for once, shall we? Because you can be damn sure that women already do all the things you think we should ("metaphorically locking the doors of our cars, not waving our wallet around with hundred-dollar bills" and all the other things that curtail our lives and reduce our opportunities. Girls and women are the majority of victims, and even men are overwhelmingly victims of other men, so why shouldn't men have to fucking narrow their lives to avoid rape? If women have to police how they dress, where they go, and who they go with, shouldn't men have curfews, no-go zones and surveillance to make sure they keep their surroundings safe?

[ehrnst]

26. +1000 (nt)

[Captain Stern]

30. I agree with you.

The only way we can completely stop people from being victims of crime is to stop other people from committing the crimes to begin with.

[ehrnst]

27. Again - where has anyone said that women should not? (nt)

[Drahthaardogs]

33. But there are men like Weinstein and Cosby who

Targeted attractive women specifically. Right?

[ehrnst]

36. Where are you going with this? (nt)

[Drahthaardogs]

45. Just pointing out that yes, some men DO specifically

Target certain women based upon appearance alone. The example of someone raping a 98 year old woman was used to show that looks have nothing to do with it. That's not really true. It was in THAT case but there are some men who WILL target women exactly because of the way they look. Not all, no. But some, yes.

[ehrnst]

67. You do know that rape is about power, don't you?

Not about being horny or attracted to someone?

Maybe not...

[Drahthaardogs]

69. I don't think you actually understand what you think you do.

It's about power, but not like you envision I am afraid.

[ehrnst]

70. Why don't you explain to me what I don't understand. (nt)

[Drahthaardogs]

71. Nah. You already have your mind made up.

I could explain it to you, but you would not listen. You want to argue not understand.

Keep thinking the raping of the 98 year old woman explains it all and that physicality has nothing to do with it.

People are bad at nuance.

[ehrnst]

72. No, I think you are being evasive about clarifying what you meant.

I can imagine why.

[Drahthaardogs]

73. I bet you can imagine a lot

As evidenced here...

[ehrnst]

75. I guess that means you are going to continue to evade clarifying what you wrote.

No surprise.

Reading your posts, it appears your own imagination goes places that you wish to avoid discussing openly in a forum that women and feminists participate in.

[Drahthaardogs]

77. See previous post.

I must be a soothsayer

[ehrnst]

78. The "I know you are but what am I?" parry...

[Drahthaardogs]

79. That's not what that said it all

More like

"You just proved my point. Thank you very much"!

Can you leave me alone now? I'm not engaging you. You have an agenda and I'm not taking the bait.

[ehrnst]

80. "I'm not engaging you."

"See previous post."

[stevenleser]

16. Assuming that was true, the question then becomes, to what extent do you alter

how you live your life to accommodate the fact that there are criminals out there.

Canadians, for instance, mostly do not even lock their doors when they are home. They feel that to do so means you are locked in more than you are locking other people out.

A woman shouldn't be able to wear what she wants because there are people who might think she is "asking for it"?

Why should she change her life for that?

[cwydro]

24. Do tell.

Please enlighten me on how to “reduce my chances of being a victim.”

Waiting with bated breath here.

[Captain Stern]

32. Ok.

Lock your car doors.

Lock your house doors.

Don't accept rides from strangers.

Don't go meet people that you met online one-on-one without there being other people around. (I put that one in there because I know two people that got robbed when they met up with folks from craigslist that they thought they would be buying phones from)

If you are carrying something on your person that is valuable, conceal it.

Avoid traveling through secluded places after dark..especially alone.

[cwydro]

34. The first five I learned from my parents and from school. I would never go meet anyone I met online.

That’s not how I meet people.

The sixth? Do you mean, don’t drive at night alone?

I delivered the paper for years in my younger days as a part-time job. I was out in secluded areas a lot in the early hours. I’ve driven from Key West to NC in one swoop, which involved traveling at night. Yes, alone. Once I was so tired I slept in a rest area (yes doors were locked) in the wilds of north Florida. Lots of shady characters in those rest areas.

I once had a part-time job at FedEx, which was in the worst part of the city where I lived. Work started at 230 am. I drove there alone. So if I had been attacked, I guess it would have been my fault for being out at that hour, huh?

Women have as much right to drive alone or work alone at night as anyone else.

Just sayin.

[Captain Stern]

35. No. I didin't mean don't drive alone.

Instead of travel alone, I should.have said walk alone

[ehrnst]

37. So if a woman doesn't do one of those things

for whatever reason, and gets raped, is she at fault?

If a man doesn't do one of those things, for whatever reason, and is raped, or even just mugged, is he at fault?

[cwydro]

39. Thank you.

I guess women shouldn’t be out camping alone on the AT either.

Or camping anywhere alone.

[Captain Stern]

56. Of course not.

I said as much in my original post:

"The blame of the crime always falls 100% on the person committing the crime."

[ehrnst]

65. I was answering your post

Which appears to be a "but...." to your post about criminals.

[Madam Mossfern]

43. Did all that

but damn, I didn't think about the living room window on the 4th floor - I shouldn't have had an air conditioner there that would prevent me from closing the window gate. Who knew that while I was in the shower, the rapist would take off all the 'tinkly things' that I put on the air conditioner to warn me? Who knew that there would be some random person climbing up and down the fire escape where people could see him?

Who knew?

It must be my fault.
In therapy for PTSD decades later.
But who knew?

[womanofthehills]

47. Who knew? that the cute guy my relatives introduced me to

would hold me down in the park by my wrists and say we were going to stay there forever until I agreed to have sex.

[crazycatlady]

44. This line of your post are different in 2017

Don't accept rides from strangers.

Well in 2017, many accept rides from strangers on a day to day basis using an app on their phone. It's called Uber (or Lyft).

[womanofthehills]

46. That list is just a given for any intelligent person

So how about:

Never go on a job interview (that's where I barely escaped a rape).

If your boss tells you he needs something from the darkroom - don't go because he will come in and grope you.

Never go to lunch for an interview - you might just be expected to slip right from the restaurant into his van/bedroom in the parking lot.

If your professor wants a private conference - BEWARE! He wants to f you and will try.

If your (UNhappiILY) married boss says he needs to speak with you in his office - this is often the big big grope and happens repeatedly to woman on the job.



This list is from my younger yrs. #me to

[Merlot]

61. "Don't drive after dark...alone?"

Sorry boss, can't work late, that would mean I have to drive home alone after dark.

Sorry, nothing for dinner kids, becasue I can't go out after dark to get food.

Seriously, stop blaming the victim.

[moriah]

48. The choice is between freedom and fear.

I'm a rape survivor.

Yes, during my fear phase I moved from the area of the state I was living. I'd already had enough instances of running into an ex unexpectedly there that I knew I needed to move back to my hometown. Which technically has a higher crime rate. But I didn't want to have to fear seeing him daily. It was someone I had known for three years who did it, and it was precisely when he had me trusting him enough to be vulnerable around him that he made his move. I was wearing jeans and a light sweater. So unless we go with Duggar definitions of "dressing down", I wasn't dressed provocatively. I also wasn't the most attractive person on the planet, definitely not a "10".

As far as being victimized again, I have two choices. I can either live my life with an attitude of freedom, or one of fear.

I'm older than some assault survivors, so I don't often go to clubs. I do sometimes date online, but before and after I had been assaulted I had implemented a safecall system for first meetings (if nothing else it'd give evidence and a timeline should I run into a SuperCreep). I have done "girl packs" and "watch your drink" pacts, and gone to gay bars with a girl pack if I really wanted to avoid meat markets. All before and after my assault.

It's not like I've tossed safety out the window since. It's remotely possible that my past "careful" behavior kept me from being targeted before. Yes, I still lock my doors. But I don't triple-check them. I sometimes go out, and take a taxi if I can't bring a friend because I don't drink and drive. I make sure someone knows when to expect me back if I go out alone. And yeah, if I'm alone I time bathroom breaks between drinks out of habit.

But I can't live my life oriented constantly around trying to make sure I don't seem like a target. If I let fear dictate, I will not give myself the freedom to enjoy experiences I am entitled to have, such as a night at a club. Instead I choose freedom.

[sheshe2]

49. What Were You Wearing?' exhibit takes aim at age-old sexual violence myth

A University of Kansas art installation called "What Were You Wearing?" aims to shatter the myth that sexual violence is caused by a person's clothing. A University of Kansas art installation called "What Were You Wearing?" aims to shatter the myth that sexual violence is caused by a person's clothing.

http://www.topix.com/forum/colleges/university-of-kansas/TK9896F2C96SI7RNK/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit-takes-aim-at-age-old

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029622111

[JI7]

62. Sexual assault is usually done by someone the victim knows

[Orsino]

8. Women can believe some fucked-up things, sure...

...but this fable at least kinda-sorta acknowledges the horror, whereas men's mythology tends more toward denying the existence of rape and sexual harrassment.

[Jim Beard]

11. What are "Come Fuck Me Shoes" ? I learned this from two women, not men.

[ehrnst]

17. So?

What does that have to do with this article?

I learned what "butterface" means from men, for all the relevance it has to this discussion....

Got anything to say about the OP?

[kcr]

54. Funny, because I learned that term from men n/t

[crazycatlady]

15. Didn't work for the Duggar sisters

[Ilsa]

41. Thank you! nt

[Hortensis]

25. LOVE Wonkette's picture worth a thousand words.

Thanks for posting it, Ehrnst.

[kimbutgar]

28. My Dad used to say if you dress cheap you attract cheap men

I never dressed seductively nor modesty but more fashionable and I was sexually harassed as a young woman. So it’s just being a women and not about how one dresses.

[appleannie1943]

29. I think a lot of it is taught to women as young children.

Just like girls are taught to play with tea sets and baby dolls. That says to a child "this is your role". Girls also hear things on how they should dress, how they should walk, how they should sit, etc. etc. etc. and so the idea becomes if you wear too short of a skirt or you do not sit a certain way , or stoop instead of bend you are inviting people to look and or touch. Even when a girl is wearing slacks, if they sat with their legs spread like men do, they are told not to sit that way. So a lot of it is ingrained in them whether intentionally or not.

[chia]

31. Does Dressing Modestly Keep Sexual Predators Away? No.

Hell, no.

[madamesilverspurs]

52. My assailant

was apparently turned on by a heavy winter coat, a knit hat, my brother's cast off navy bell-bottoms with the gazillion-button flap, and heavy winter boots.

Or maybe he just saw an opportunity.


.

[janx]

53. C'mon, this blog is using oversimplification to the point

of being laughable.

In the first place, the picture here is of some women in a cult--wearing their costumes. In the second place, the argument is an either/or.

I realize that this topic has resurfaced, like a lot of others, but I'd like to think we're beyond that...you know, like progressing past the 19th century, as Obama referenced lately.

[ehrnst]

66. You do know Wonkette uses humor to view politics, don't you?

Maybe not.

[betsuni]

55. K&R

[struggle4progress]

63. For non-college women 18-24, about 50% of rapes occur at home, while the woman

is doing something provocative like sleeping

I really have nothing against ladies sleeping in their own homes --- but shouldn't they at least wear chain-mail and suits-of-armor when they do that, so that intruders aren't provoked?

[treestar]

74. For all people say that, it is about power rather than sex

and so what the person is wearing is likely irrelevant.

[DetlefK]

76. No, because sexual molestation or rape have nothing to do with sex.

It's about power. It's about oppressing and humiliating the other person.

Dressing sexy or unsexy doesn't influence that.

[MineralMan]

81. Men are the ones doing the raping and sexual assaults on women.

Those men are the ones at fault, every last freaking time. Women are not at fault when they are raped or sexually assaulted. Not ever. Not even once. Period.

The onus us on men. The entire argument about modesty in dress is specious and divert from the facts. Men rape and sexually assault women. The blame does not fall on the women, regardless of any situation.

That is it, and all of it.