Don't waste your time with Trumpsters. Alright?

[Tobin S.]

I see well meaning liberals trying to make sense out of Trump supporters. I've seen that Robert Reich piece in a couple of places here- the one where he said he talked to 20 Trump supporters and they were all bailing on Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if they all lied straight to his face. That's how the polls were off so badly before the general election.

I've talked to Trump supporters on Facebook for the past couple of months. They are impervious to facts, truth, reason, logic, love, compassion...in a word, sanity. I recovered from a serious mental illness 15 years ago, but as I talked to these people and tried to reason with them I could feel myself slipping back into the abyss.

They are not blind. They see Trump just as clearly as you and I and perhaps with even greater understanding, and they are right on board with him. There might be a few lost souls still out there, but I would consider anyone who is still on board with Trump to be totally aware of how he really is. If you understand Trump at this point then you understand the supporters who are still with him. They are the same.

We don't need to talk to these people anymore. We can keep our eye on them, but we don't need to do any more than that.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Agreed. I post over at Discussionist at times, but changing minds is not the point...

It's hardly even possible.

[Funtatlaguy]

2. I know many of them. This is what I see.

They love that , to them, he is a great Alpha male.
Almost Deity like, they love a strong ruling male authoritarian figure.
The bullying, sexism, crudeness, etc. is excused as part of being strong and virile.
They love that he insults people. Where we are appalled, they applaud.
Abortion - it’s always about that. They believe he is against it - at least, more so than any Democrat is.
To them, voting for any pro choice Dem is blasphemous and against God.
They really love him taking on the media which they see as liars and elitists.

Those are the Trumpers, not the establishment low taxes/small govt/educated Republicans.
The Estab Goppers are embarrassed by Trump.
But, they are still hoping to use him to cut their taxes and shrink govt.
If they can ever accomplish that, they will turn on him and welcome in Pres Pence.
Pence will appear calm and rational to the country after someone like Trump.
An Evangelical Dominionist, Pence will have a social agenda to try to end abortion, gay marriage, separation of church and state, have mandated prayer in schools, etc.
The money changer Repub estab will go along with him on social issues as long as he goes along with them on all economic issues, which he will.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

6. Good summary, thanks.

One hopeful possibility I see is that in the first group you describe, some may become disgruntled enough not to vote due to rising healthcare costs, Trump promises not kept and a bit of disgust over his behavior.

[Martin Eden]

10. Trump-Pence is a double whammy

We really need to get rid of the dangerous sociopath with access to the nuclear codes, but in some ways Pence is even more of a threat.

When a Dominionist is heralded as a return to normalcy and sanity, the goalposts will be moved even farther towards a rightwing theocracy in collusion with the corporatist oligarchy.

If the Democratic Party doesn't get its act together and inspire massive voter turnout we are in a heap of trouble, folks.

[Garrett78]

37. Exactly right.

As Credo (cell phone company) pointed out, the New York Times (among others) is normalizing anti-immigrant organizations that are designated as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

So, any Republican who follows Trump won't just be normalized. He or she will be supernormalized.

We're already in a heap of trouble. The Democratic Party needs to get its act together to prevent absolute catastrophe. I'm not optimistic about 2018.

[Madam45for2923]

17. We were warned that we would be governed by fad or mob at some point.

[whathehell]

30. Warned by who?

I'm not familiar with this.

[Madam45for2923]

32. Founding fathers warned that we would be governed by fad or mob at some point.

[whathehell]

34. Yep, that sounds right.

[Madam45for2923]

35. That's why one of them said "A Republic, if you can keep it"

-Benjamin Franklin

[whathehell]

36. Yes, that's exactly what I thought of. n/t

[liberalhistorian]

42. Alexander Hamilton was especially

worried on that point; he'd seen mob rule during the Revolution in New York City, as well as in the Caribbean Island he grew up on. He knew how easily things could devolve to that point, and that it was very difficult to stop once put in motion.

[Hortensis]

3. 2018 and 2020 are going to be determined by TURNOUT.

It's a waste of time to imagine trumpsters would ever vote Democrat.

Best case, a few more percent of Republican voters might just not vote.

We will lose anyway if WE don't turn out in big enough numbers.

But a new study projects that 40 million Americans who voted last year will likely not show up at the polls for the 2018 midterms — and that two-thirds of those “drop-off” voters will be millennials, unmarried women and people of color.

The report, just out from the Voter Participation Center and Lake Research Partners, “Comparing the Voting Electorate in 2012-2016 and Predicting 2018 Drop-off,” notes that many of those expected not to cast a ballot next year live in key battleground states like Arizona, Nevada, Florida and Ohio.

“Everybody declines in their turnout in off-year elections. But the decline is much, much more dramatic among the ‘Rising American Electorate,’” Democratic strategist and pollster Celinda Lake said in a Thursday conference call about the findings.

According to the report produced for the nonprofit Voter Participation Center, which works to increase civic engagement, “35.1% of those who voted in 2016, or 25.4 million RAE voters, will stay home” in 2018. By comparison, “The predicted drop-off among non-RAE voters is only 22.1%, or 14.4 million voters.”

The study defines the “Rising American Electorate” as unmarried women, millennials ages 18 to 34, African-Americans, Latinos and other people of color as defined by the U.S. Census.

Together, Lake said, the “RAE” numbers about 133 million people. At 59.2% of the voting-eligible U.S. population in 2016, the 2016 presidential race marked the first election in which this group stood in the majority.

However, “The RAE, while increasing their turnout and increasing in their numbers, still lags behind the non-RAE in its overall turnout,” Lake noted.



https://mic.com/articles/182592/new-study-projects-stunning-drop-in-2018-millennial-voter-turnout-in-battleground-states#.C5oyvOZuA

One major problem, as always, is voter registration.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

5. K & R Thanks, good article.

I'm shocked at the predicted drops. Looks like Dems need to do more targeted campaigns, particularly toward unmarried women. Women's healthcare, childcare, and children's nutrition certainly need more attention.

Facebook and Twitter should be willing participants for our "good side" after the damage they caused in 2016.

[Squinch]

8. Very true. Turnout AND our ability to keep the vote clean. The latter worries me.

[Hortensis]

14. Extremely worrying. The pubs want to extend not clean up

election tampering of all varieties, and they're in power.

[Squinch]

15. And institute more restrictions and more hacking opportunities. Hortensis, when I think too

much about it, it makes me nuts. If we don't win the mid-term, I might despair and I'm not a despairing person.

[Hortensis]

23. Here too. Sick, and optimistic.

Every change generates reaction, not equal and opposite, scary as hell like now, but always.

Once upon a time, though, the Gilded Age of unrestrained, ruthless greed and its inevitable but unforeseen end, the Great Depression, lead directly to the creation of a true golden era.

Unlike those generations, we won't be the first to cage out-of-control greed. We have their pattern to follow, there are 330 million of us, and we grew up believing we earn our share of our nation's prosperity.

From Sarah Chayes, who's been studying kleptocratic takeovers around the planet:

Corruption is no disorder, but the effective functioning of systems designed to enrich the powerful.

New way of looking at it for me. The attempted destruction of our systems is more visible and understandable than the disguised, secretive attempts to construct their permanent replacements.

[Squinch]

25. Wow. These are all very interesting points. And the idea that the greed of the twenties did

eventually lead to the golden era does make me feel better.

And perhaps the visible destruction is positive in that no one can deny it is happening anymore. I suspect there are many more of us than we realize who will work to stop it.

[mountain grammy]

31. Yes. Good article.

[Hortensis]

33. Sobering, but it's only one study, and from last June

Last edited Sun Oct 22, 2017, 07:08 AM - Edit history (1)

using data gathered before that. One would think talk about nuclear war with NK should alone have forced some attention.

The Republicans are also worried about low turnout. More millennials are subscribing to reputable journalism. Etc, etc. Wish we knew when the gerrymandering decision in Gill v Whitford will be released, although whether it would affect 2018 districting in any states is apparently questionable.

[applegrove]

4. We need to be ready to explain right wing doings if the chance occurs.

Majority of americans already want some gun control and some form of good health care and some taxes on the rich. We need to be ready to have a talk if there is an opening on their hearts. If not, if they are alt right nutters and pseudo alpha males, keep your distance. They just depress.

[Mike Nelson]

7. Agreed...

...the solid Trnmp supporter likes the bigotry, etc; he's their guy. The polls were correct - they ones that were not polling the Electoral College. I'm not sure how you poll the Electoral College... maybe count WI voters as more than CA voters, I guess... anyway, this type of voter - the Trnmp supporter - has always been there. They're louder now, of course. I think their % of the public has trended down, over the decades.

[Squinch]

9. I agree that this is a majority of them, the ignorant ones. There is another segment that I

find truly evil and frightening. They support him because they know exactly who and what he is and they are simply hypocritical and cynical. They understand the facts, truth, reason, logic, love and compassion but they reject them. They are amused by the horror of everyone else, they intentionally glide over Trump(R)'s and their own wrongdoings and intentionally feign outrage at every manufactured Democratic wrongdoing.

But your overall point about not wasting time on them? Total agreement. They are nothing more than a kneewall we have to climb over. And we can.

[Martin Eden]

11. They are amused by the horror of everyone else

In other words, truly deplorable.

[Squinch]

12. Everyone else's horror represents their "taking back" the power that used to be theirs.

Because the world they want is horrifying to most of us.

[Lars39]

13. "...they all lied straight to his face." was my first response to reading Reich's piece.

Glad to see you back writing on DU, Tobin.
I foolishly spent 5 days with Trump voters (extended family) recently. Never again.
They have no problem with what he's doing because they agree with his agenda.

[milestogo]

16. Don't waste your time on Facebook. Alright?

[Tobin S.]

41. There's more news on Facebook than DU.

If you filter out the Trumpsters it's not a bad experience. I kept them there and talked to them out of a sense of duty and humanity to try to help people, which was my mistake. They are a lost cause. But I see people in the media and our party leadership and rank and file people like me who are still trying to make sense of these people and sway them. Robert Reich is one of the smartest people you will ever run across, but even he, out of his inability to conceptualize the level of hatred in the heart of the the typical Trumpster, and due to the wonderful level of compassion in his own, doesn't see the error in his ways on this one.

[WinkyDink]

18. Never did. To add: They hate Ricans,* so they are FINE with no aid for PR. They hate Blacks, so they

are FINE with Trump's cavalier words to the widow Johnson and FINE with Kelly's slurs and lies about Rep. Wilson.

They love swagger and braggadocio, so they are FINE with Trump's insane sabre-rattling towards N. Korea.

They admire and envy "The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous," so they are FINE with Trump's lavish homes, his making money off the Presidency, and tax cuts for the wealthy.

They hated and/or did not do well in school AND hate school taxes, so they are FINE with any move to de-fund public education.

They view themselves as the only true patriots, so they are FINE with the enforcement of obeisance to the anthem or flag, especially for members of Minority groups.
Note: Rich Minority athletes and entertainment figures are not part of the Admired and Envied Class; they are, rather, members of the Ungrateful and Un-American Class.

They fear and loathe religions that weren't represented in the 17th C. colonies (never mind the 16th C. Spaniards and their many Catholic missions), and they believe the public sphere needs to promote Christianity, so they are FINE with any laws that allow religious discrimination in business, viewing them as victories for Christ.
Note: Because of their afore-mentioned ignorance, these people are not aware of what the N. T. Christ actually says.

Trump supporters would rather starve than give up their guns, for they see that notion as the first step in a government take-over, so they are FINE with the LV shooter's arsenal.

And so on. Trump supporters are not worthy of our time, for the simple reason, hard as it may be to fathom, that they actually feel superior to us. THEY pity US. WE are the deluded and ignorant "Libtards." WE love to squander their hard-earned money. WE love to tax them. WE love to send them to war. WE love to deny them their Constitutional rights. WE want to deny them affordable healthcare.

WE just want to bring down America by giving away the store to shiftless heathens on welfare who buy vodka with food stamps and won't stand in love and gratitude for the national anthem, dammit!

So no, there can never be a meeting of the minds with such True Believers.

*The Deplorables have other "nicknames" for the islanders, also.

[GoCubsGo]

19. It's a cult.

Unless one is trained in cult deprogramming, one likely will not get through to these people. They are totally void of reality. The facts can be right in their faces, and they'll still deny them. I see it every day when I read comments on social media. They can't even accept that John Kelly has lied, even though the tapes are out there to prove it. I mentioned the other day that I saw one who claims that Trump never cheated on his wife. This, in the face of the fact that most of us never even heard of this asshole until his extramarital affair with baby mama #2 while still married to baby mama #1, became the scandal du jour back in the early 1990s. Talk about living in a bubble. They're like a death cult, and they're willingly going to follow Dear Leader right over the cliff.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

20. Been saying it since day one.

You WILL NOT change the mind of a trump supporter.
When you come to an obstacle, GO AROUND IT.

[oasis]

21. Trying to reason w/shit-for-brains deplorables is a waste of valuable time.

Gotta remember, these Dumbfucks voted for him in the first place.

[bluestarone]

22. totally

agree they are dumb as a rock

[Grammy23]

24. They are racists, bigoted and stubborn as mules.

They do not like to be called out for their racism/bigotry because deep inside they know it is not acceptable. But it IS how they feel. So when you call them out on it, it tugs at their rage. Many have felt this way for years, their whole lives. It is steeped into them from childhood and trying to reach them with logic and reason is a waste of your time and breath. In fact, they think it is YOU who is off base. You represent everything they hate about lib-ruls.

So unless you like being called ugly names, getting into pointless arguments and just shooting the sh*t for grins and giggles, it is best to leave this endeavor alone. No matter how well intentioned you are. You are on a fool’s errand. Find something useful to do and let these idiots find out for themselves when some of tRump’s policies and ideas come back to bite them squarely on the ass. It is the only thing that will get through to them.

[TexasBushwhacker]

26. Just because they have regrets about Trump doesn't mean they'll vote for a Democrat n/t

[Kingofalldems]

27. They know he lies and they approve.

Fascists.

[gratuitous]

28. I waste just enough time to point out their hypocrisy

It comes in huge waves, and I feel it would be a disservice not to demonstrate to them that, yes, we heard you all those years because we're throwing the same and worse right back in your smug faces.

[brewens]

29. The push back for the last few days events is to smear Congresswoman Wilson.

They really don't have squat. They are impervious to the facts. Even if in a few day, if the family of Sgt. Johnson comes forward backing her up, it will be like water off a ducks back.

What's easy is all they have to do is show her speaking. She is black, a woman, flamboyant and outspoken. They would hate her just for that alone, even if Trump hadn't stirred all this up.

[Garrett78]

38. Been waiting my entire adult life for the Democratic Party to stop trying to appeal to right wingers

When the Republican Party has the White House, US House, US Senate, a clear majority of governorships and a clear majority of state legislative bodies (all in spite of becoming increasingly unhinged), you would think the Democratic Party would engage in some serious soul searching.

But, alas, Will Rogers was right. Democrats aren't properly organized. Rather, there doesn't appear to be much backbone in the party apparatus. Democrats are always on the defensive. Such as being on the defensive against bullshit accusations of widespread voter fraud, instead of screaming bloody murder about race-based voter suppression (one of many factors that led to Trump becoming, dare I say, Presid...just can't do it...so, let's just say the person living in the White House). Or being on the defensive against accusations of a "liberal media" bias in spite of media consolidation in the hands of just a handful of giant corporations. Republicans have been spouting the "liberal media" mantra for decades, and it's been incredibly effective.

McCain is more likely to make a stink about Niger than Democrats are.

Gee, I can't imagine why Republicans control the White House, US House, US Senate, a clear majority of governorships and a clear majority of state legislative bodies. And, thus, are able to draw the district boundaries and pack federal benches with lunatic judges. Yep, I'm really scratching my head trying to figure it out.

Republicans control the narrative (on criminal justice, on voting problems, on foreign policy, on values, on media bias, on government spending, and everything under the sun). And, in spite of becoming increasingly unhinged, they have more power than at any point in modern history. Yet there are those who insist the Democratic Party can do no wrong, that all Democrats have to do is let the Republican Party implode and for the masses to see the error of their ways (be they nonvoters or Republicans). That's been the dominant stance for my entire adult life. How does one draw that conclusion in light of the massive power imbalance? How?!?

Wake the 'F' up, Democrats. You don't have to play dirty or take the 'low road'. After all, you have the facts on your side. But you do have to get tough, and be the forceful opposition we so desperately need you to be. Before it's truly too late.

[Tobin S.]

39. This is a great post, Garrett.

Yeah, it's been that way since Reagan. Democratic politicians took his overwhelming victories in the 80s to be evidence that Americans had swung hard to the right in their political views so they swung that way, too, in what they thought would be the best way to maintain some power and made us more of a moderate party. It was so pronounced that Nixon was actually to the left of Bill Clinton on most issues, and was a liberal by today's standards. People get uptight when you mention that stuff, but those are the facts.

[Persondem]

40. I disagree. Understanding them and taking appropriate action can help.

From an OP I posted earlier today....

There is a physiological reason that conservative thinkers stay conservative even in the face of strong evidence that contradicts their positions.

Fear. Fear sells. Fear is all over the news and social media. Fear 24/7 for some people.

But there is a way to counteract fear as a motivator ...

"The researchers behind the psychology experiment told a group of participants to imagine that they'd been granted a superpower by a magic genie and were suddenly as invincible as Superman — bullets bounced off them, fire couldn't scorch their skin, and “a fall from a cliff wouldn’t hurt at all,” Bargh writes in his book. The study's control group was simply told to imagine they could fly. "

"The study authors say this is some of the first experimental evidence that making people feel completely safe can (temporarily) change their politics and make them more liberal. "

Link ... http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-liberal-john-bargh-psychology-2017-10?utm_content=buffer73a84&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi

So we don't need to go at conservatives with fact after fact that directly counter their positions, but we can make headway if we remind them of the good things in life that enhance their feelings of well being.

Of course this runs counter to many of our (and my) instincts, but what else ya got that could reverse the fear induced conservative mindset that refuses to listen to the Truth?