Showing someone your dick is rape culture

[obamanut2012]

Showing off your erection, jerking off in front of a women or girls, sending dick pics IS ALL PART OF RAPE CULTURE.

That is it. Period. If a woman -- or man -- hasn't asked to see it, then it is sexual assault if you do it. If you do any of this to a minor, there is an extra layer of crime to it. This is sexual violence.

I keep seeing DUers handwaving this as a "perv" who "flashed" them.

These guys always escalate, just like "peeping toms" do. They turn into molesters and rapists. Children shouldn't laugh at this, they should contact the closest safe adult and call 911. Or call 911 if they have cell phones. Teach them this isn't funny, teach them a man who does this wants to hurt them in some way, because that is what they ARE doing, what their intent is.

And, this isn't anything new - these sociopaths just have smart phones and the internet now.

[MineralMan]

1. Yes, it is.

Clearly.

[obamanut2012]

2. It confounds me so many people think

this isn't a huge deal, including some women. So many of my women friends on dating sites get MANY dick pics every day. Like WTH.

[MineralMan]

5. Weird.

I can't even imagine. Well, I can imagine, but don't understand why anyone would do such a thing. Do the dating sites ban such people when they get reported? If not, why not?

Weird.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

244. for example: graphic: dick pics

[Cary]

7. In principle it is clear

The OP suggests that the line to be drawn is consent, which means what?

Whether there was consent may not be so clear. And then too we have the he said she said and some people will lie.

In principle I agree with the idea of believing the accuser. In practice I don't think 100% of the accusers of anything do so in good faith

[obamanut2012]

9. Your argument for handwaving some of this is confounding to me

Just stop.

If you don't know what consent is, that is extremely worrying to me, and the safety of women in your life.

[Cary]

20. Thanks for making my point

Your unjustified attack here is exactly what I was describing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

78. I'm with you... some "consent" lines are clear, some a little blurry.

Same with withdrawing "consent"... some are clear, others not. Don't see why all the condemnation for asking questions, seeking clarification, or engaging in discussion. I know plenty of WOMEN who can't agree on these issues, so can we get a lil' break here?!.

[Cary]

105. The horror!

You want to be able to express your idea? Off with your head!

[bettyellen]

127. You didn't notice that most of these women didn't say yes? How clearer could it be?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

132. Yes, that is the clear cut case... no one could seriously argue otherwise.

No OBVIOUSLY means no.

I don't think the other poster is saying otherwise, but, I let that person speak for themself.

[Cary]

144. It's all my fault

So it's no problem if you act out your issue on me.

[Hekate]

153. Give me a break. You made yourself quite clear.

[Cary]

156. I made what clear?

You're accusing me of something?

So spit it out. What have I said or done that is illegal, unethical or immoral?

You need a break from what?

[bettyellen]

159. What a bunch of gaslighting bullshit. Not surprised though.

[Cary]

160. Show me where I "gaslight bullshit"

I stated an opinion. There is no reason for you to make it about me personally.

[bettyellen]

162. Don't "act out your issue on me". In other words, bug off.

LOL at the "no need to make it personal" issue you have there. Hilarious.

[Cary]

165. Sure feels to me like you're trying to bully me

I don't bully easily. Never did.

[bettyellen]

167. Quoting you feels like bullying, does it? Telling you to go away is bullying? Nope.

It's disengaging from your bullshit, the opppsite of bullying. You really need some help with figuring social stuff, don't you? Until you get a clue- good riddance.

[Cary]

171. Nope.

Changing the subject from what it is into something about me, personally, because I don't toe your line is bullying.

[bettyellen]

207. I wasn't- I was quoting you trying to make it about "my issues" which is just gas lighting bullshit.

Last edited Mon Nov 13, 2017, 08:19 PM - Edit history (1)

[Cary]

215. Please take out your aggression on someone else

[Cary]

253. There is a legitimate issue being discussed here

And it isn't my person. You have no just cause to discuss my person.

Just because I question where to draw the line doesn't mean I'm guilty of something. The thing I'm trying to balance here is where consent between adults begins and where it ends. I think you may take that too far. I have said nothing to justify anyone's conclusion that I advocate any behavior. That isn't even the question here. The question here is when is the behavior impermissible. When is the behavior "rape culture."

When does your inquiry into the behavior of consenting adults become a breach of someone else's privacy? I see here that I am subjected to scrutiny merely by asking that question. That, bettyellen, is bullying.

[mythology]

60. The fact that you think you think consent is always 100 percent clear in concerning to me

I can't imagine being so limited in my thinking that I couldn't imagine a situation where things are unclear. For example, if two people have been drinking and slip past the point of being legally capable of having consent, are they both rapists and both victims? Legally speaking the answer must be yes. Or if one partner doesn't feel empowered to say no to something, or even says yes without fully agreeing or knowing what said act will feel like.

If you think consent is so easily and clearly determined, go ask a medical ethicist about informed consent. It's a clearly evolving field, and while in general there is less of a knowledge gap than between doctor an patient, but if one partner has more experience, a less experienced partner may not understand what they are consenting to. For example let's say a person consents to give a guy a blowjob, go ask 10 guys what makes a great blowjob, you'll get 10 different answers. If the person is like me (I'm a guy who has a gag reflex that has resulted in a dental assistant getting bitten before), but the guy thinks a blowjob includes deep throating, that's a recipe for disaster. Did the person consent to that? They said yes to giving a blowjob. Life is complicated and while we may understand that a blowjob includes a dick in a mouth, there are lots of variations of what that means. And apply that across all possible sex acts, and it's far more complicated than you think. I would go so far as to say that thinking consent is simple, means you don't really understand the subject at all.

Also while we're on the subject of your logical flaws, I'd like to point out that if I as a guy show my dick unsolicited to another guy that's also a form of sexual violence. Or if a woman shows somebody unsolicited images of herself. Your hetero-normative world view not withstanding.

[bettyellen]

130. It's not that difficult. Consent is an ongoing thing that depends on enthusiastic participation. He

Didn't actually wait to hear a yes. He didn't say can I strip naked and jerk off. That is fucked up, and it's not confusing at all why.

[mercuryblues]

202. I love the

idea that women have to decide for men what consent means on a case by case analogy. What if this or that happens, is it still consent? If I do this or they do that, is it still consent?
I said yes, but he/she started choking me, I couldn't say no, but I shook my head no and pushed him/her away, did I withdraw my consent?
I said yes to a BJ, but he shoved it so far down my throat I puked on him. I wanted to keep going, but he went in the shower. Did he withdraw his consent? Should I go in there and try again? He locked the bathroom door, Is that a normal habit of his or did he withdraw consent?
Half way through sex she pulled out the nail polish and started doing her nails. She never said stop, is that still consent?
We were in the middle of doing it and her parents walked in, she never said stop, but her parents did. Should I keep going or stop?

[bettyellen]

211. If you have to ask what a person leaving a locking the door means, you don't deserve sex, LOL... you

Also seem to have a whole lot of concerns about pausing when you're not sure that's what the other person wants- get a clue, thats when you need to ask. A simple "is this okay" will usually suffice. Learn to communicate, and always work out a safe word and gesture when you're engaging in anything risky.

Now why do I imagine that instead of a simple well earned thank you, I'm going to get more nonsense about how very hard it is for you to utter two or three words?

[mercuryblues]

212. I don't think I was clear enough with my post

every time there is a thread about consent, someone will always pop up with very specific scenarios and demand to know if consent was given. I gave outrages examples of said scenarios.

[bettyellen]

224. Yet they all had easy answers, LOL.

[whathehell]

54. "Would the line of consent be so clear'?

Do you mean in the case of dick pics and weenie waving?

If so, I would have to answer with a resounding 'Yes". In addition nd ask if if you have seen the Samantha Bee clip from her show?..

I am well into adulthood and have seen my fair share of flashers, but, no, I know of NO women of any age who have ASKED to
to see a man's dick -- None. Nada Zero. Zilch.

[Cary]

64. I have seen females lie with the same frequency as I have seen males lie

I had a female come on to me, rubbing her breasts against me as I represented in court, right in front of a judge.

I felt totally violated for a week.

I fired the client the second we stepped out of court.

Sorry but there are bad people capable of the same bad stuff regardless of gender. I'm sure a simple Google will get you to. Some cases where men were released after women recanted their accusations. Stuff happens.

[whathehell]

83. Um, are you accusing me of lying or do you think women are lying

to me about NOT being at all interested in seeing a man's dick or watching men masturbate?

I ask, because that IS what we are specifically speaking of, not lying or the possibility of a woman making a physical move on a man -- It's dick pics and weenie waving, okay?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

88. I agree with you, what you describe is clearly over the line of consent.

No doubt, you agree the same standard should apply to women who set nude pics of themselves without the recipient asking? My son, reporting from "the field," can attest to this on a daily basis.

[whathehell]

94. Yes, absolutely. n/t.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

133. That's seems fair.

[bettyellen]

226. Why is your son giving his contact info out to so many strange women?

Or is he claiming these are actually women who are friends and aquaintences?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

227. lol, been on social media much?! It's called social networking...

how kidz communicate these days.

[bettyellen]

229. Yeah, I'm just picky about who's allowed to send me private messages.

I'm sure if he was bothered by hose images he would too.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

231. Different age... he's not bothered at all, as I said.

[bettyellen]

233. You hadn't said anything at all about his reaction to this. You must be thinking of somethging else.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

242. My bad... said that to someone else.

[MineralMan]

56. Consent is consent. It is not unclear.

There is clear consent or there is not. Someone who gives clear, open consent is not likely to say that no consent was given.

Assumptions of consent are not consent. Simply allowing something to occur is not consent. Consent is a positive response that is given in a clear, unmistakable way. It should be enthusiastic and not equivocal.

Consent is simple. It is "Yes, I want to engage in that activity with you." It is, "Yes, please do that."

It is clear or it doesn't exist.

[Cary]

67. Most of the time.

Not always.

[MineralMan]

75. No. Always. If it is not clear, it does not exist.

At least that's always been my rule for myself.

So, please give me an example where consent exists but it unclear. Thanks.

[Cary]

87. In spite of concerns from internet strangers i do not partake

Alas I have no examples for you. All I have is a law degree and 32 years of trying to figure stuff like this out.

Intent is always the most difficult so is it fair to expect a definite example?

It's a case by case thing. But if you wish to put strict liability on anyone sending a nude image, then so be it.

[MineralMan]

107. No problem. Sending unsolicited images like that should be illegal.

A misdemeanor if an adult sends it to another adult. A felony if an adult sends it to a minor. If two minors are involved in the exchange, it is something else, in my opinion. I'm not sure how such situations should be handled, but probably they should be handled by parents of the two minors.

I'm old. My high school days were in the early 1960s. One time, my girlfriend of two years handed me a Polaroid image of her unclothed upper torso. That was the sexting of those days. The photo was not of something that was not already familiar to me, and I took no offense from it. I did not reciprocate with my own photo, however. When we broke up, I destroyed the photo and told her I did so. And that was that. Kids today apparently send similar selfies of each other. Kids. Sadly, those often get disseminated and end up on the Internet. That's unfortunate, but hardly criminal on the kids' parts. Unsolicited images like that should never be sent, and some punishment for doing that is warranted. Criminal prosecution, however, is probably not warranted in most cases.

[whathehell]

111. As a lawyer, have you ever represented a flasher/weenie waver?

or tried to defend one on the grounds of it being "consensual"?

[TheFrenchRazor]

175. THIS. X 1,000,000. nt

[Cary]

82. By the way this is not new.

These debates were held over and over and over.

Regarding pornography you will recall the famous Supreme Court case where I don't remember which judge said it, but he could not define pornography but he knew it when he saw it.

If you watch Deep Throat, for example, there is some sanctimonious, sappy patriotic speech in the movie. The reason for that was to claim that the movie had some free speech merit.

This is the problem. If the line isn't blurred then people will adapt and find ways to blur it. It's not so easy to speak in absolutes. I think we do about as well as we can MM but we aren't objective beings. We are subjective beings trying our best to be objective.

There are bad people. That isn't going to change but waxing nostalgic, as if a prior era was somehow better, is a mistake. As Frank Zappa said we are dumb all over.

[MineralMan]

85. Of course it's not new.

What does that have to do with defining consent?

It's simple: "Can I do that?" "Sure." That's consent.

"Can I do this other thing?" "No. I'm not ready for that."
"Oh, c'mon, don't be a prude." "No, I don't want to do that."
"Just try it. If you don't like it, I'll stop." "No. I told you..."
"But, I need to do it. Otherwise I'll feel terrible." "Oh, all right then..."

That's not consent. It's just not. It's giving in to pressure. Consent should never require wheedling, whining, or rationalizing.

[Cary]

89. It means what In said in the post

It's not as easy as you seem to want it to be.

You can hate me for that but that's how I see it.

[whathehell]

146. Lol..You still haven't answered on consent for weenie waving & dick pics

but I guess that's no surprise.

[Cary]

151. Who are you?

I have some kind of duty to answer something to your satisfaction?

I don't think so.

[whathehell]

155. Nice try.

Who am I? .Someone whose argument you can't rebut, apparently. :

[Cary]

157. Show me where you made an "argument" and where I tried to "rebut"

[whathehell]

222. I'll be happy to..

You asked "would the line of consent be so clear'"...I answered in the affirmative by telling you I had never ever known a woman to ask a guy she'd just met to pull out his dick or send her a dick pic...
You answered quickly, but your reply spoke of a woman who had pressed herself against you and the fact that women we're as likely to lie as men. It was, in other words, non responsive. I pointed this out in my next post and attempted to bring you back on track,. You failed to respond.
In a separate post, I asked if, as a lawyer, you had ever represented a flasher and tried to use the "consensual" defense. Again, you failed to respond.

[Cary]

223. I see. Out of one side of your mouth you accuse me of "rebutting"

Out of the other you accuse me of "non-responsive."

[whathehell]

225. Um, no, you apparently do not see..

I said you did NOT rebut.

It's just a thought, Carry, but you might want to get a better grip on your obvious hostility if you want to read and write in a clear manner.

[Cary]

234. You almost "won"

But you snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Now I can never, ever take you seriously, ever again.

[whathehell]

238. "and now I can never, ever take you seriously, ever again"

Aww..really?...After ALL we meant to each other?

You MUST be kidding!




.

[Cary]

246. I don't recall having run into you before

I have sorted through a lot of garbage posts over the years and perhaps you just blend in well?

[whathehell]

247. I'd bet you don't 'recall' quite a few here..

since one tends to forget one's failures.

[Cary]

248. You give yourself too much credit

You're not my failure.

At least be good enough to own your own posts.

[whathehell]

249. Lol..Project much?

Have a nice day, dear, and thanks for playing.

[Cary]

250. Buh bye.

[whathehell]

254. Wow..

I thought you'd never say that!

[Cary]

255. Why is that my responsibility?

I don't recall ever inviting your verbal abuse or your nonsense. You started this by accusing me of debating you. When asked to show me where I debated you, you contradicted yourself and accused me of being non-responsive. Now you insist that I had to tell you buh-bye and you're doing the "I have to have the last word" schtick.

You're a mess.

[whathehell]

256. Where did I say it was your responsibility?

Whle you're at it, you might show us where I said you "had to say goodbye". or subjected you to "verbal abuse", an accusation that's not only false but almost funny since given it's inclusion in a post in which you insult me by calling me a mess.

Honey YOU are the "mess" -- Have a nice day and enjoy my Big I list.

[Cary]

257. I didn't say you said it explicitly

Do you see how are you are? You assume things that aren't true. You accuse me of things that aren't true. You have to have the last word. You put words in my mouth. You assume that I have to toe your line in terms of my discussion or my opinion. You make personal attacks instead of addressing the issue in a reasonably objective and sober way.

You aren't the judge of anything. You have no authority or power to set or police any standard. You're nothing more than an anonymous poster on an irrelevant internet board, the same as I am, so why don't try treating others with some dignity and some respect instead of trying to be a bully?

You're really don't cut it as a bully anyway. I've seen much bigger and badder than you.

[Cary]

258. And let's be clear here about who is the mess...

You picked this fight with me and when I asked you to identify what it is exactly that you have a problem with you gave me a contradictory, non-sensical answer.

I am entitled to my opinion. I said nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical. I said nothing to justify anyone's ridicule or scorn. I am minding my own business, which includes fending off trolls.

Get to your point, if you have a valid one. And no, "Cary sucks" is not a valid point. That's trolling, not an argument.

[Cary]

91. And I didn't suggest your examples were consent.

[Cary]

99. I have a friend, a Democrat, who stupidly said some things to a Republican female

He may be subject to discipline for his stupidity, alone. No pics as far as I know but stupid stuff like "Your hair is beautiful and I bet it is down below too," or some other such whatever.

I don't know that meets the standards of anything. I don't know whether the Republican consented. It is worth getting more facts and figuring it out.

Ultimately it's a worthwhile discussion. I'm just not ready to render as definitive of a conclusion as you seem to be.

So I don't necessarily disagree with you. At least not yet.

[MineralMan]

109. It sure as hell doesn't meet any standards of mine.

I can't even imagine making a reference to someone's pubic hair in that way. I'd consider that to be sexual harassment on that person's part. If he worked for me, he'd be looking for new opportunities, though.

It's not difficult to be a nice, polite person. Truly it isn't.

[Cary]

154. I don't expect perfection

Nor do I contend that my standard is to be applied to anything. I think it needs to be discussed without making it personal. I mean you aren't the issue. You aren't on trial and neither am I.

Others seem to have found me guilty of something.

That's not uncommon here. There are people who divert the subject from whatever it is to some kind of judgment of the poster.

I have never seen you do that.

[RandomAccess]

189. Ah, there's your problem

I don't know that meets the standards of anything.

If you don't see the "stupid" comment as highly inappropriate and an example of sexual harassment. you're clearly confused and could use a remedial course in decent male-female interaction. That comment was way more than "stupid." It creeped me out.

[Cary]

193. Excuse me?

I don't have a problem. I have an opinion.

If you can't understand the difference than that's your problem. I am always surprised at how many people don't grasp that simple distinction and insist that they have a right to judge.

You can disagree without being disagreeable. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

92. So, are you saying that form of verbal consent is required before engaging in any sexual activity?

[MineralMan]

102. Verbal. No, not necessarily.

For example, a consenting person might take the other person's hand and move it where they want it to be. That's consent in its most fundamental form. Of course if the person whose hand is taken and moves doesn't want it to go there, then consent isn't mutual and that will be obvious in short order.

I remember that happening very clearly when I was 16 years old, making out with my girlfriend while parked in front of her house. I asked if something would be OK, and she showed me that it would, as described above. Consent was obvious.

A consenting person also might simply take the initiative and do something that is clearly wanted by the other person. No details are necessary to understand that.

Consent is obvious and clear. If it is not, then the consent doesn't exist.

[Kentonio]

168. Except consent is not always so obvious and clear

Example: Someone moves someones hand to where they want it to be. The other person feels mortified but also feels like if they object they could be risking their career, or they simply freeze mentally in that moment. Perhaps the first person thinks everything is consensual, whereas in fact it is anything but.

Consent is a very complicated topic with huge caveats at every step for both parties. You can't simplify it down to 'consent is obvious and clear' without doing a lot of people grave disservice.

[whathehell]

177. It is in cases of weenie waves & dick pics, which is what we are

actually talking about. Just sayin'.

As far as some went, I.e. Louis CK and Weinstein reports are they , sometimes asked, were refused and then did it anyway.

As to touching someone, try asking.ng first ESPECIALLY if you are in a more powerful position than the woman. Beyond that, I:be never heard of a woman making a fuss IF the man STOPS after his first touch is rejected....This, of course, is generally values d within dating relationships, NOT, if it's done outside of one, by some random jerk on the street or some other entitled schmuck in a workplace, i.e. Mark Halperin, reportedly.

[whathehell]

147. In keeping with recent events, this topic concerrned dick pics & weenie waving

Given that those are clearly NON- consensual, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see the that the topic has conveniently "broadened".

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

173. Clearly, yes, NON-consensual... so what's there to discuss then?

Obviously, less clear areas are also worthy of being mentioned. I didn't realize rules prevented such other, broader, but related issues, to be discussed.

I'm happy to delete my prior comment if you are seriously objecting to, and upset by, what I said. I understand this is a sensitive topic.

[whathehell]

178. Yes, you and a couple others are willing to concede that

but a few here can't quite bring themselves to do that and are just ignoring it in favor of something they have a better chance of getting agreement on. This was all I was trying to say

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

195. Oh okay, then I see where you're coming from.

Just to be clear, I'm not conceding anything... it's not like you had to convince me otherwise. Indeed, I TOTALLY agree with you and shocked that others see this is as a point of contention.

[whathehell]

241. Okay, then

We're good.

[RandomAccess]

188. You're right

100% of accusers DO NOT do so in good faith.

Only about 99% do.

Put me in with obamanut2012 on this.

[ismnotwasm]

3. Yup

Not sure why the conversation isn’t widening. This ain’t new.

[obamanut2012]

6. Yup

[MineralMan]

14. I don't know either. You've commented from time to time

about internet porn. What is so strange to me about it is how much of it apparently is purely misogynistic and completely the opposite of consensual sexuality. I don't view porn, but have looked at a couple of sites out of curiosity. I've been around for a very long time, and what I see depicted there, for the most part, has little to do with the kind of sexual relationships I've been in.

No woman I've ever known would have tolerated most of what I've seen depicted in the thumbnails I've seen. There's nothing consensual in most of what appears on sites like pornhub.

I truly worry that the adolescent boys who consume much of that porn are getting a completely distorted view of human sexuality. It has to color their expectations and concepts of what people do consensually very darkly, I think. It's troubling.

There was nothing like that when I was growing up. There was pornography, but I rarely, rarely encountered it. Today, just about any google search can turn up porn. It's troubling times to grow up in, I think.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Its also blatantly racist

Pornography reflects culture IMO. It’s also very much a free speech issue. So when we have a wildly unregulated multi-billion dollar industry that promotes sexual harm, either through sexism or racism or other social ills, what does that say about us?

[MineralMan]

18. I think it says that our culture is coarsening.

Perhaps beyond correction. I don't know.

I do know that we need to begin taking it back and reconstructing it. Sadly, at my age, I'll probably not see that happen.

[Sunlei]

30. our society needs to make exposure of internet porn to children a crime. even by email & click18.

"A casual attitude toward sexual violence against women is directly related to pornography consumption."

"in a study that polled children about pornography exposure before the age of 13, half of the male children and one-third of the female children will have been exposed to pornography in some way. For the male children, almost a third will be exposed to pornography before they are 10 years old. Perhaps the most troubling part is that the majority of exposure (about two thirds of the group) is unwanted and unwarranted."

https://www.everaccountable.com/blog/how-pornography-affects-teenagers-and-children

[whathehell]

69. Agreed..

I recall reading something recently about an 8 year old boy who had been exposed to porn. He was deeply disturbed by it. He was crying as he told his parents ".I don't feel the same way about myself".

[emulatorloo]

28. i am on a board where young men talk about porngraphy. It mostly makes them think their penises

are too "small" to satisfy a woman. They believe all men have outlier sized genitalia except them.

Consequently they are afraid to get into relationships for fear of being rejected.

They are watching porn that depicts consensual sex. (Which I beleive the majority of porn out there depicts)

It's a complicated issue.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Vanilla porn is fairly straightforward

There are porn sites that are submitted stories that include blatent pedophillia, and this is apparently legal.

[emulatorloo]

42. These are young guys with a healthy interest in consensual sex w adult partners

they have a healthy interest in consensual sex w adult sexual partners. They just aren't at all sexually experienced, so they are naive viewers of porn.

Correct me if I am wrong, seems to me a site with stories about pedophilia would only be attractive to pedophiliacs.

[ismnotwasm]

59. What they are is basically fan fiction with movie stars of choice

Or basic or extreme kink. And yeah I agree that only pedo’s would be interested in pedos and the way these sites are set up is with warning codes of content.

Don’t get me started about anime and monster porn.

[MineralMan]

61. I admit to only seeing a small sample of Internet porn.

What I have seen does not appear to represent true, consensual sex, as it typically occurs in private. It appears to me to represent some sort of male fantasy of what sex is or should be.

I won't get into the details of it. I do know that none of what I've seen represents typical life experiences of mine, and I've been around for a very long time.

[emulatorloo]

90. Yes I think it is very accurate to say it is male fantasy of what sex is.

As men are the primary market.

However I have known women who consume and enjoy porn as well, which is some of what drove the "porn revolution" when home VHS came out.

Where folks get into trouble is viewing it naively. Most everybody understands a mainstream action-adventure movie is fantasy and just for fun.

"I do know that none of what I've seen represents typical life experiences of mine, and I've been around for a very long time."

That's probably not the kind of stuff I would enjoy.

But:

Here's where it gets a little tricky, I know some people, both men and women, who enjoy role play etc that is not my cup of tea. We don't want to get into a situation where we are trying to "regulate" other people's sex lives. As long as it is consensual (between consenting adults) that's all that really matters, right?

[MineralMan]

95. When kids see it, it's always viewed naively.

That's the problem. Some 13-year-old boy goes to pornhub and starts watching videos, clicking them at random. I remember being 13. I had some vague notion of what sex involved, but only a vague, naive notion.

This is the problem. Every kid has access to the Internet. While some parents are good about applying parental restrictions on browsers, most are not. So, 13-year-old boys, in general, have access to pornography in massive quantities.

I propose that what they are going to see is not in any way a representation of what they will encounter in real life. Instead, it is a distorted view of human sexuality that pretty much ignores women except as the "other."

When adults view porn, it's more likely that they will understand what is fantasy and what is more typical. But young guys? Not a chance. Their view will not be a view from knowledge. It will be a view from naivete. They may learn after a while that what they saw is not what they should expect, but they don't know that in the beginning.

That's the problem, really.

[emulatorloo]

100. Agreed adolescent boys should not be viewing that stuff

I do need to reiterate the men I was talking about are 18 and over, although I don't know when they started seeing porn. FWIW they said women their age viewing porn too

[MineralMan]

103. And I'm talking about non-adults.

They are, in fact, avid consumers of internet porn.

[whathehell]

245. The small amount I've seen is also highly anti- female

Much goes by names like "Barely Legal" and calls the girls "sluts" and "whores" and the usual gender slurs...This does not even include the many physically violent porn genres which include torture and bodily mutilation.
I only wish I we're making any of this up. It's hate filled and extremely ugly.

[Cary]

4. It seems the line is being re-drawn

Ultimately that should be good, since it clearly needs to be re-drawn.

My only complaint is that certain advocates seem to me to be over zealous. Having a discussion, it seems to me, requires that one be allowed to offer opinions without subjecting themselves to abuse.

I may very well be wrong as to where I might see the line. I readily own my bias in favor of otherwise good Democrats. A prime example is Bill Clinton, whom I am disinclined to condemn in spite of the fact that I cannot deny his guilt.

I guess if that makes me a bad person, then I am a bad person.

[obamanut2012]

8. If BilL ever showed his dick unsolicited, then yes

There is no proof it was ever anything but consensual, and he was impeached over stuff he did.

Anthony Weiner's big mistake was doing it to a minor. He deserves to be in prison.

[Cary]

11. Bill is accused of rape

But then too he is accused of murdering 30 people and the only thing that has ever been proven is that he lied in a civil deposition in a case that was deemed to be frivolous about a matter that was deemed to be irrelevant.

Do we accept the accusations of the alleged rape victims? Do we accept the claims that he murdered 30 people?

[Honeycombe8]

31. I'll have to check, but as I recall, there was one rape allegation, but she took it back ...

, saying that those were rumors that she said Clinton had raped her. Then later, she took back her recantation. So she was discredited. Who knows what happened with her, if anything. It's possible it happened. But ultimately, she filed a sworn affidavit in court that Clinton had never made any sexual advances toward her. So the one instance where she had to swear in court over it, that's what she said.

Clinton had many extramarital affairs & relationships, though. Consensual.

[Cary]

49. Ok. But that's not what I am contemplating.

And I am only contemplating. I have no agenda.

What I have heard, from Michael Steele of all people, is that women are saying they have had enough and that when they say they have been abused we need to believe them.

I agree with that 100%.

I have some trouble with it though. I think there will be occasions where women will lie. They may he rare but there is documented proof of false convictions for rape. Women have recanted their testimony.

And then there is the political part of this, and I don't want to see Democrats accused. That is more of a personal bias and I own that. I am far more likely to judge a Republican like Moore than I am to judge a Democrat. In just and sorry. I'm not perfect

[emulatorloo]

51. If I remember right

She made the rape allegations. Then later said it was consensual, but she didn't want her boyfriend at the time to know she was having a consensual affair so she said it wasn't consensual. Sounds like that's what you remember as well..

[Cary]

74. Given what I k is of the so called "elves"

Like Ann Coulter, I can only tell you that most of the people who accused Bill were scumnand had no use for the truth.

It happens.

[7962]

136. There was the one rape accusation, but a few other accusations of sexual assault.

Those accusations were not recanted. Kathleen Willey, Leslee Millwee & Paula Jones stand by their accusations. And Clinton paid Jones almost a million dollars to settle her lawsuit. And there are many other women, dating back over 40 yrs, that have made accusations.
I think he's always been a double standard when it comes to this issue. As the original poster says, we have our biases. I've always tried to NOT be that way. Weiner had many defenders here until it just became too obvious that he was guilty.
Every always focuses on the Lewinsky affair, but its the LEAST offensive story. And while consensual, doesn't it still fall under the "men in a powerful position" category?
But I've seen posts on DU get hidden for simply stating facts that are in evidence. And if I posted any links to these womens stories, I'd get a hide too. And thats a damn shame.
Women in 2017 are STILL terrified to tell people about incidents that happen to them from men who are "well known" and its terrible. And when you read statements like those defending Roy Moore, it makes me even more angry. We know darn well if Moore was a Democrat, these same self righteous blowhards would be screaming to high heaven about it.

[Honeycombe8]

176. The post I was responding to was about rape, though. (But Willey recanted her alleg.)

There is not a double standard, seems to me. He was not running for office, and was not elected or re-elected while these scandals were hitting. He also didn't run on a family values platform, like so many Republicans do.

He had numerous affairs, IMO. And a couple of harassment incidents, I believe.

But it was well known that Clinton was a player before he was elected. He never presented himself as a family values politician.

Yes, the Lewinsky thing falls into a "man in powerful position" category. Except for one thing: SHE was the instigator. SHE egged him on, as the evidence showed. It wasn't a matter of him pursuing her, and she felt her job was contingent on "being agreeable." Quite the opposite. So, different in that respect from the "me, too" allegations that are coming out now.

CLINTON WAS NOT RE-ELECTED AFTER these scandals broke. He was not running for office. So, no...he was not given a pass. Not the same as Roy Moore refusing to step down, or of Trump getting elected as President. And IMO, he would not have been re-elected.

[7962]

180. That was Broderick. Willey has never recanted.

The only consensual ones were Flowers and Lewinsky. And we DID elect him after hearing about many of the accusations, remember James Carville talking about the "bimbo eruptions"? It was definitely known before 96 because I constantly heard about it from republican co-workers
As for not being re elected I don't know; Bob Dole?

[Honeycombe8]

182. Pardon me: Willey was proven to have lied.

Linda Tripp, the Clinton Administration staffer who secretly taped her phone conversations with Monica Lewinsky in order to expose the latter's affair with the President, testified under oath that Willey's sexual contact with President Clinton in 1993 was consensual, that Willey had been flirting with the President, and that Willey was happy and excited following her 1993 encounter with Clinton.[18] Six other friends of Willey confirmed Tripp's account, that Willey had sought a sexual relationship with the President.[19] Ken Starr, who had deposed Willey in the course of investigating the sexual history of President Clinton, determined that she had lied under oath repeatedly to his investigators. Starr and his team therefore concluded that there was insufficient evidence to pursue her allegations further. In 2007 Willey published a book about her experiences with the Clintons.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_sexual_misconduct_allegations#Kathleen_Willey


The Lewinsky scandal was in Clinton's 2nd term.

Flowers was merely one of Clinton's extramarital relationships; did not involve harassment allegations, and everyone knew that Clinton was a player.

So Clinton was NOT re-elected after a rape or harassment or lying under oath scandal.

Interesting that you seem to be trying to twist facts to fit an agenda. Which is to be that there is a double standard. There isn't. Vitter, a rep who campaigned on family values, who committed illegal acts repeatedly in hiring prostitutes, and on top of that, having a fetish where he wears diapers with the prostitutes...HE was re-elected after that. A Democrat in all likelihood would NOT have been.

[7962]

187. Oh yeah, Vitter's a scumbag.

[Sunlei]

24. not positive, but I think he was impeached because he lied under oath.

[Honeycombe8]

33. Yes, except he wasn't really impeached.

Only one part of the impeachment process voted for impeachment, so he was not really impeached. He was voted to be impeached as a start to the impeachment process. For lying under oath during a deposition in the Paul Jones case. The Arkansas Bar pulled his attorney license for it, too.

That's my understanding.

[calimary]

53. He was impeached but not convicted of the charges of impeachment.

If he'd been convicted, there'd have been cause for removal as the next step. But Bill Clinton was a mighty popular president by then. Many thought his persecution was overkill. He was impeached - in the House of Reps - for lying, they'd say. The inevitable response was "yeah. For lying ABOUT SEX." Enough members of the opposition, which had a majority in the House (led by then by vindictive, vicious, nasty, rabid Clinton-hater and headline-whore Newt Gingrich) but not in the Senate, were conscious of a tremendous public backlash to what was coming to be known as an inquisition.

Taken in context, Clinton's impeachment was the last gasp of a Ken Starr witch hunt that started with the purported Whitewater "scandal" and found nothing to hang him on, went searching and scrounging and scouring through several other "scandals" and found nothing, and finally wound up with a stained blue dress. Which they thought would stick and would give them momentum. It didn't provide them enough momentum, though, to close the deal. The deal, as suspected by many of us (myself included), was that THIS was the only way the GOP thought they could get rid of Bill Clinton. They'd been pecking at him since he got there. PLUS they had an added target in what they perceived to be the "uppity woman" he was married to, whose big sin was not knowing her proper place.

There was quite a pushback that developed. Clinton was in his sixth year of eight years in the White House. The middle of his second term, which he'd won handily. He'd had the unmitigated gall to interrupt the presumed entitlement of Bush 1 to two terms in the White House, and render him a one-termer. This young whippersnapper upstart from "Arkansas ???" had the nerve to unseat their king from what they (and I'm sure he himself, as well) felt was his rightful place - in the Oval Office. Royal entitlement dontchaknow. An invincible new "American Royal Family" dynasty born to supplant the Kennedys - this one would be better because it was the GOP. And Bill Clinton snatched that away from them. But Bill Clinton was doing a good job. And the voters knew it because they renewed his lease after his first term. So they couldn't get rid of him through the ballot box. We were enjoying peace and prosperity over a nice long period of time, as a nation, on his watch. He was popular. And the same fear of pushing against that kind of popularity then was what motivates the GOP now NOT to pull away from trump. That's when MoveOn.org was born. It's named for its first collective online campaign - urging voters to contact their reps to tell them to "move on" from the whole Monica mess. And the pushback was stronger and more forceful than their wish for vengeance.

Furthermore, let's also remember some other forgotten facts, and why I have such little sympathy for Miss Monica. She was no innocent! She wasn't some 14-year-old living with her mom and in school and not even driving yet and meek and impressionable as hell. She was a grown woman, over 21, no longer in school, who'd relocated across the country for her big break: a Washington DC internship. She wrote to her friends back home about how thrilled she was to land this opportunity because she intended to use it to earn her "presidential kneepads." From what I've read, she did a lot actively to encourage the later encounters with Bill Clinton.

[Tavarious Jackson]

62. He was indicted by the house and the Senate voted not guilty. nt

[RhodeIslandOne]

214. He was impeached

Impeachment is indictment by the house. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean conviction by the Senate. The theory at the time it was drawn up by the founders was an impeachment was as good as removal from office as a president would have no more authority.

[Cary]

55. He was impeached straight across party lines because Republicans hate him

And it was summarily tossed out in the Senate because Senators in those days were more functional.

But Bill's behavior was atrocious. JFK too.

As I said I think this is a discussion we need to have. But we need a sober discussion without bullying. A total stranger telling me that I worry them simply because I don't toe his or her line exactly is just bullying. Disagree with me...fine. I don't claim to be the end all or be all of anything.

But don't make some mealymouthed, baseless accusation.

[Irish_Dem]

35. The line: sexual activity is between two consenting adults.

Any body who violates that is not deserving of our respect.

[CTyankee]

164. Monica says it was consensual. However, Clinton was the most powerful man in the world and

he could, but did not, choose to keep her out of the Oval Office. Period. I don't think rape was involved. But I hold Bill accountable for allowing her into the White House and access to him. He could have stopped her and did not. We had a helluva time during that impeachment time. He could have avoided all that. That blue dress was where I just drew the line. He was irresponsible and at that point derelict in his duties. Not saying he should have been impeached, but his reprimand was deserved. He brought all of us Dems to the brink of our party's destruction.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. It is an aspect of rape culture, certainly, because

they are imposing a "view" of something sexual on a person who didn't ask to see it and doesn't want to see it. I kind of get why some creep on the street exposes himself to strangers - he's doing it to shock and intimidate, not as a pickup method; this is a sort of visual rape. What is completely baffling to me is why a guy would send dick pics to a woman he knows and is maybe interested in having a relationship with. Does he expect her to be impressed or aroused? Is this the visual equivalent of a crude pass or an off-color pickup line? Do men think any of these behaviors are actually attractive to women? Because some of them seem to think it's an effective way of getting positive female attention. Maybe rape culture is so deeply ingrained in the male psyche (or some of them, anyhow) that they truly believe that crude, aggressive and invasive behavior is actually seductive.

[obamanut2012]

13. Because they feel entitled to

It is rape culture.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Yes, but what do they think they'll get from it?

A man might feel entitled to display his junk to whomever he wants, but most human behavior presumes some sort of payoff. What's the payoff for a guy who is interested in a woman and sends her a photo of his genitals? Does he think she will be more interested in dating him, or having sex with him? Or is it just some cheap thrill from knowing the photo is likely to cause a reaction, even if the reaction is that the woman is disgusted and refuses to have anything more to do with him? It seems to me that the possible payoff from this behavior is more likely to be negative than positive, so does a dick-pic-sender find the act of photographic exhibitionism so rewarding that he doesn't mind being rejected on account of it?

[bettyellen]

166. I've asked this of many pushy men over the years and the answer is playing the percentages...

If you keep trying eventually someone will say yes. Or more accurately, won't be able to say no. I've known some tough gals who just couldn't muster up a no.

[Kalibaba]

230. Agreed

It’s easy to see this mentality just by reading some of the BuzzFeed lists and light news stories. In He last few days alone I’ve read “funny” articles actually celebrating men who “shoot their shot” by sending Twitter DMs to women they don’t know. BuzzFeed tends to be on the left side and they’re giving a pass to people who are basically harassing people they don’t know through social media in order to get laid?
Also I said “men” because that was the gender in the articles. Doesn’t mean women don’t do it too.

[Dave Starsky]

19. Is it a culture thing, or just a fucked-up wiring thing?

Because I am a heterosexual male, born and raised in the US, and it never would even enter my head to do such a thing. Even if cell phones existed in my most frustrated and hormone-raging day, I would have thought sending someone a picture of my junk to be weird, demented, and creepy as fuck.

I have to think this is some strange biological or neurological phenomenon that only affects certain males. It's got to be.

[emulatorloo]

32. agreed. these guys have something mentally wrong w them

The imho the majority of men are not sending out unsolicited cock pics. These guys have some mentally wrong with them.

[Irish_Dem]

66. What ever the numbers, there are enough men aggravating the crap out of women. nt

[Nay]

81. I think the fucked-up-wiring thing has always been there, but the culture thing USED to

make dick displays, etc., WAAAY out of bounds. It was something only perverted weirdos did, and it was recognized that only perverted weirdos did it.

Now, with the crazy online porn stuff, it's a wonder any men out there act normally. Sex is a very, very powerful instinct (esp in men) and to pervert, divert and use that instinct to sell porn is, IMHO, disgraceful. But disgrace doesn't seem to be a thing anymore. And porn purveyors can just change names and go on doing what they do no matter what, and we who live in society just have to pick up the pieces by ourselves.

[whathehell]

124. While I don't dispute the OP's theory,

I do think it refelrctive of sickness or perversion...It's definitely NOT a "cultural" thing...Even your regular "man on the make" doesn't pull this shit, if for no other reason than it's incredibly unattractive.

[3catwoman3]

185. I would have thought sending someone a picture of my junk to be...

...weird, demented, and creepy as fuck.

And you would have been right!

[Irish_Dem]

40. One of the Hollywood males said this is "flirting" and part of seducing someone.

They see it as legitimate part of the dating ritual.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

44. That's just twisted.

If someone tried to "flirt" with me by exposing himself he'd find himself sitting on the curb with his dick in his hand and his drink poured over his head.

[Irish_Dem]

46. It would certainly be a turn off to me. But some of these guys seem to think it is a turn on.

[smirkymonkey]

139. I can't think of a bigger turn off. All that says to me is that the sender is

an extremely fucked up person and should be avoided at all costs.

[Irish_Dem]

150. Really. First date screen out immediately. nt

[whathehell]

112. Sure.. That's why they're losing their jobs over it

They need to try something else.

[Irish_Dem]

119. They really do not understand women at all.

Most women don't want a man pulling out his penis on the first date.

[whathehell]

121. No, like weenie wavers, they're almost comical in that respect

They are in dire need of a sit down with Samantha Bee.

[Irish_Dem]

122. Really, they need to be sent to dating boot camp. You can imagine what it would be like.

What? Women I work with don't want to see my penis?
What?

[whathehell]

128. Yes..

It's hillarious, at least in the he abstract.

I wish I knew how to post Samantha Bee:s vid here...It was posted a couple of weeks ago...If you haven't seen it, do so. It's one of the funniest -- and truest -- takes on this issue I have ever seen.

[Irish_Dem]

149. Yes in the abstract quite funny. Most good humor has an underlying edge to it.

I will look for SB's video online.

[whathehell]

220. Okay

[RandomAccess]

192. Here's how

Just right click on the video and choose "copy video url" and bring it over here and paste it into a post. I think you can also copy the URL in the browser, but I'm not totally sure.

Nothing fancy needed

[whathehell]

219. Thanks, RandomAccess

I'll try this..I'm kind of "technically challenged".

[obamanut2012]

197. Exactly! Rape culture, entitlement, etc.

[RandomAccess]

191. Never mind whether the behaviors are attractive --

I can't figure out why they thing the PIX are attractive, or even remotely erotic. I've never known any woman on her own think that. I've known of women buying into and adopting male views on the subject and thus convincing themselves of the male view of photos like that, but never on their own.

[Iggo]

12. Uh, yep.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

15. Agree that it is part of that culture.

Don't you think Louis' response accepts and acknowledges that?

[bench scientist]

71. I think Louis C.K. is a self absorbed creep.

He lied and denied this behavior for years. Only after his movie release was cancelled by the studio , and several television appearances were cancelled did he issue his apology. He notes throughout that statement several how admired he was by thee women. Why include that ?
He really only cares about himself that’s why.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

152. He included it because it was part of the discussion of power

He felt in the past that he was different because he "asked first" and they were employees of working under him. He now realizes it was wrong and that them looking up to him was part of the power he had which makes it bad. I think his statement is trying to help people realize it looks all kinds of ways.

[bench scientist]

158. Nope he included cause he only cares about himself.

Why deny the behavior for years?
Why have his manager speak to these women about not speaking up.
After the Kevin Spacey PR disaster, he likely knew there was a good chance his actions would come to light. I’m cynical as his entire pattern of behavior is always all about himself.
This is nothing more than a self absorbed creep trying to mitigate the damage to his career.

[3catwoman3]

186. If any guy had even asked me if I...

...wanted to look at his genitalia, or watch him getting it on with himself, that would have been the last he would have seen of me.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

190. Fair enough

I don't think the power position he was in made it so that these people though they could say no.

[whathehell]

243. I'd like to second that..

about 3,000,000 times...

It is not, to put it mildly, a "turn on"

[obamanut2012]

198. No, his fake apologu sucks

He never says he is sorry, once, for YEARS he has called these women liars and ruined their careers, he keeps saying how they admire him, and he says it was "somewhat consensual."

So no, the fake apology sucks. He accepts NOTHING, and I am puzzled by the praise this fake apology is getting.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

203. Third paragraph of his statement: "I have been remorseful of my actions."

Do I need to define "remorseful" for you? I'm not saying you have to like what he said, but let's not lie about it. He does say he's sorry. Actually, I would argue that "remorseful" is a stronger word than sorry.

He talks about himself because he uses that to show why he had power in this situation:

I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn't want to hear it.

And, how is his last line not the best thing said by anyone accused to date:

I will now step back and take a long time to listen.

[Hayduke Bomgarte]

21. I just can't wrap my mind around

The attraction of texting or seeing texts of someones private parts any more than I can grasp an adults sexual attraction to a little kid.

[Sunlei]

22. happens to a lot of people & children that way. you never forget that first time your eyes drop

from their face to their lap.

[Dennis Donovan]

23. 20 yrs ago, it was a joke on Seinfeld...

[musette_sf]

45. I don't think "it" (the bit) was a "joke".

I think it was a great way to use humor to legitimize women speaking out about such experiences with *some* men.

Her male friends were sympathetic, and they henceforth shunned the bad actor.

"Seinfeld" did not a few things to legitimize women as autonomous individuals with sexual agency.

[ehrnst]

25. I think that boys learn to masterbate to porn, and get the message that

women make themselves attractive for the purpose of arousing them to orgasm.

[Honeycombe8]

36. Many men are obsessed with their organ. They assume women must be, too. Remember Freud.

Freud thought the organ was so wonderful that women must SURELY be envious of it! "Penis envy," he called it. HA! Freud didn't understand women's bodies to know that the had their own stuff....not just a vacant space where a penis should go, which is how he saw it.

Women are not as enamored of the penis as men are. In fact, some women think it's fairly unattractive (although serves a great purpose!).

[Nay]

68. This. When I have just casually mentioned to boyfriends that gee, a penis is

kinda unattractive, you know?

They were all shocked and surprised that many women felt that way.

[thbobby]

104. Bumping Uglies

My ex wife used to jokingly call sex bumping uglies. I am certain that no woman wants to see my ugly on her cell phone or in any other way. If we are intimate, she still does not want pictures of my ugly.

[Honeycombe8]

113. LOL! nt

[7962]

115. As someone who HAS one, I don't understand why they were shocked.

I've never thought the darn thing was attractive at all!!
And even when I was younger I never wanted to show it to anyone who didn't have a desire to SEE it.

[Honeycombe8]

118. LOL. There's a reason most women don't seek out pics of penises on the internet.

True, we're probably not as visual. But it's also true that the winky isn't as attractive as OUR bodies. But things fit together quite nicely, and that's what matters.

[7962]

138. And probably why there are very few strip clubs catering to women!! nt

[ehrnst]

172. The erect penis is featured in most porn targeted to straight men.

A lot.

[Lucky Luciano]

117. Indeed. Penises are pretty ugly!

[Irish_Dem]

41. That is interesting, had not thought about it that way, but makes sense.

In a sick way.

[obamanut2012]

199. THis has nothing to do with porn

Good grief.

[thesquanderer]

26. I think "these guys always escalate" is an over-statement that diminishes your point.

re: "These guys always escalate, just like "peeping toms" do. They turn into molesters and rapists."

Do you honestly believe that there is such certainty that if Louis C.K.'s behavior hadn't been exposed, he would eventually molest or rape someone? That it's not perfectly conceivable that, as far as he's ever gone, is as far as he'd ever go? Especially in light of the fact that he's apparently done it for many many years and never gone any further (as far as anyone knows)?

I think it's perfectly conceivable that (a) he still had at least enough of a moral compass to be able to stop himself from touching someone else without their consent, and/or (b) the acts he did take are, for him, the most exciting part anyway, and there was no desire to do more.

[obamanut2012]

200. Read John Douglas and Robert Ressler -- they escalate

It diminishes nothing.

Yes, I honestly believe that, because it has been proven. GUys who send unsoliticed dick pix and who "flash" have or will escalate.

You are wrong.

You do not even get that jerking off to completion in front of women is escalating and is sexual assault. Or that his cornering women and groping them is escalating.

And, that says something not great about you.

[thesquanderer]

239. I think you could have offered your persepective...

...without the personal insult of the last line. But that's DU I guess.

(You also could have offered your thoughts without making assumptions about what I do or do not get, for that matter. Though I had not heard that Louis CK had cornered or groped anyone.)

[emulatorloo]

27. FWIW I believe most men know how to behave around women and understand no means no

Those that don't have something mentally wrong with them.

[Solly Mack]

29. K&R

Yep. It's not funny or amusing or anything like that.

[procon]

34. I don't get it. Men, tell us why your species is obsessed with displaying their junk?

Hell, I've watched enough nature videos on my TV to know male animals do the same displays as part of their courtship rituals to attract females, is that the whole crux of it? Do those men think that women will let them have sex just by getting a glimpse of their dicks?

[emulatorloo]

39. Why do I have to justify the behavior of men who have some mental aberration?

The majority of human men understand consent, those that don't are fucked up in some way.

[procon]

47. You just explained much of what I've long suspected.

Still, the problem seems to be so infectious and wide spread, you have to wonder what aberration drives that freakish behavior .

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

50. "Courtship ritual," LOL! I'd much rather see a courtship display

of colorful feathers than somebody's one-eyed groin ferret - a useful but not especially attractive physical feature. Of course, some guys do their courtship display by shooting their French cuffs to display their Rolex watch. That's still an improvement over just flopping their junk out of their pants.

[procon]

57. Yeah, I'm with you. If I wanted a stag in rut, I'd buy a hunting license. nt

[Orrex]

58. Funny that you should ask...

Male Chimps Send Their Version Of The "Dick Pic"

Seduction is an art, a delicate dance, a carefully crafted display of value, designed to win the heart of your one special mate in the world. So obviously, for a male, the best way to accomplish that is with an unsolicited dick pic.

What? It's practically natural law.

Even chimpanzees have their own version of this tradition: though they lack the technology to take a photo of their junk (so far), they do have other ways of drawing a female's attention to the only real point they have. Male chimpanzees, when aroused and looking for some action, will sit with their legs apart and their erection on proud display. If the female takes too long to smell what the Rock is cooking, then the male will begin scrunching up dead leaves in his crotch area, in the hope that the sound will draw her attention to the gentleman's club. It truly is an unsolicited dick pic in all but name. So go ahead and wing a wang her way: surely using the same seduction tactics as a horny monkey will work out for you.

From Cracked.com, with the quoted link leading to an NYT article.

To be clear, I am not justifying it on the grounds that other dumb apes to it, because non-human apes engage in lots of behaviors that I find less than laudable. Nevertheless, there's apparently some precedent for this kind of dick-centric behavior in other primates.

[procon]

65. Animals!

If men are ruled by their rutting instincts and hormonal urges, then they shouldn't be allowed in public off the leash.

[Orrex]

72. There certainly are plenty who have trouble keeping their shit together.

[7962]

120. The only ones I've ever known to do it thought exactly that.

Now its only been a few, but these guys were also the ones who had bigger "equipment". My ex-wife went out with a guy who did it and he couldn't believe she didn't immediately want to have sex with him.

[Skittles]

135. ...

as a female comic once said regarding 'penis envy', "Why would women envy something that looks like a dead chicken's neck and can be out-performed by a couple of AA batteries?"

[procon]

143. LOL - in my day, I have killed many a budding romance with a untimely laugh. nt

[IronLionZion]

37. No one ever sends me vagina pictures or flashes her vagina at me

unless we're dating. I don't want anyone to see my dick unless we're dating. Funny how that works.

HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SEND 40 UNSUSPECTING GUYS A PREEMPTIVE V-PIC
https://www.thrillist.com/sex-dating/los-angeles/we-sent-a-preemptive-v-pic-before-dudes-could-send-dick-pics-heres-what-happened

Single woman turns the tables on men and sends potential dates unsolicited pictures of her vagina - and is horrified when almost all respond with crude enthusiasm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3327641/Single-woman-turns-tables-men-sends-potential-dates-unsolicited-pictures-vagina-horrified-respond-crude-enthusiasm.html

Girls, Stop Sending Vagina Pics
https://thoughtcatalog.com/jameson-dumaurier/2015/01/girls-stop-sending-vagina-pics/

[Nay]

97. Part of the disparity in reactions of men to vajayjay pics and women to dick pics is the

difference attitudes/experiences toward sex between the sexes.

Sex, to men, is always a positive, wonderful, pleasurable thing no matter what. For women, it's a mixed bag. Unless men are in prison, they have little fear or rape or assault, while women know that they can always be attacked and raped. Most women have been sexually harassed/raped, so sex takes on the tinge of something scary, threatening and unwanted. For every man she wants to engage with sexually, there are hundreds that, in her actual experience, turn her right off in a scary, disgusting way. That's not true for men, I don't think.

[IronLionZion]

108. For the people who treat others the way they want to be treated

some guys want sexual harassment from women. See this video:

I get what you're saying, but it isn't always a positive experience for males. There are young boys and teenage students who have been abused by adult women who would have a negative experience.

[Nay]

116. I would never say that it was ALWAYS a positive experience for men -- note that I did

mention prison -- but men's negative experiences are multiplied by a thousand for most women. From nearly the day they are born, women are inundated with sexual stuff that, to them, is not very alluring. In the park - "see my dick!" At school - bra strap snapping, groping. At work -- boss rubs his boner on you from behind. It's never pleasurable, believe me. And it's pretty much constant. Very soon we are tired of dicks ("thanks, I'll find one on my own&quot , grabs ("fuck off!&quot , going to HR over harassment ("No one witnessed it, so there's not much we can do&quot and on and on. If you're a woman, you get a whole different playing field and thus a whole different attitude toward men, dicks and society in general.

There are many times I think this disparity would be essentially erased by genetically altering women so they, as a group, are as physically strong as men. Much of of the lopsidedness is due to the fact that, generally, we cannot physically fight back and expect much chance of winning. Over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, that has led to a nearly predator/prey relationship between men and women, which is sad.

[fierywoman]

232. Let's not forget the fear of pregnancy for a woman.

[Irish_Dem]

43. Men are taught to love their penis, women taught to hate their body parts. nt

[emulatorloo]

48. See my post #28

The poor guys I wrote about needlessly hate their penises.

[Irish_Dem]

63. So some men hate their penis and that is why they flash it around?

Perhaps seeking some sort of approval?

I don't have a penis so I am clueless.

[emulatorloo]

77. Did I say anything remotely like that? No

In fact those men I wrote about are terrified of getting serious or nude with a woman because they are afraid they are totally inadequate

[Irish_Dem]

80. Sorry for misunderstanding. nt

[emulatorloo]

84. No worries n/t

[Cryptoad]

52. Does Bible cover this??????

[MineralMan]

73. Only if you hold it right.

[SweetieD]

70. I agree. Men sending unsolicited dick pics and flashing is a form of power play and control.

[Orrex]

76. That's true, but a little while back I overheard something funny...

I was on my front porch, and a group of about half a dozen teenage girls walked by, talking about the pic that a male acquaintance had sent one or several of them.

As one laughingly put it "He shouldn't send no pics if he got a small dick."

So, in the case of that poor, unremarkable young man, his attempt to exert power and control did not succeed.

[Cryptoad]

79. Anbody in their 30's who dates teenagers is,,,,

a pervert in my book.......

[MineralMan]

86. +100.

[saidsimplesimon]

93. Rape culture or porn stars?

"these sociopaths" need people on their trail, expose them. We all have smart phones, use technology to our benefit. imo

[Politicub]

96. Agreed - K&R

[Steven Maurer]

98. So is flashing your breasts rape culture? Body paint modeling in public?

The Portland Oregon naked bike ride? Nude beaches?

Not that I'm a fan of exposing myself, but I'm just wondering what "rape" and "sexual assault" is being defined to now. Go too far, and people will start associating "rape" with arousal - like Nirvana's "Rape me" - and drain all meaning out of the term.

Is taking off your Burqa, exposing innocent fundamentalist Muslim men to all sorts of feelings of arousal that they would otherwise not have, committing sexual assault against them? And therefore be punished?

Inquiring minds want to know just how far you're all willing to take this.

[obamanut2012]

201. Aren't you precious

[Steven Maurer]

208. You're even more so

Write back if you ever have an answer.

[Skittles]

236. it's always about them

don'tcha know?

[videohead5]

101. If by some accident

Like I was running with shorts on and it came out I would be as red as a beet.what a nerve these men must have.

[Irish_Dem]

123. Isn't that why men wear a jock strap so it doesn't pop out accidentally?

And why they seem to be constantly adjusting the situation down there.

My teenage daughter asked me why the boys in school always seem to be adjusting themselves. I said I had no idea but thought perhaps sitting at school made things
uncomfortable.

[videohead5]

126. Yeah

I'm just saying I would be embarrassed beyond believe.

[Irish_Dem]

148. Good for you. That says a lot about your character in a good way. nt

[IronLionZion]

161. boxer briefs

consider it

[Not Ruth]

106. How about no dick pics ever again?

That way, no one has to worry about it

[MineralMan]

110. Now, that makes sense. Thank you!

[Codeine]

213. If I'm asked, I'm happy to send them.

And for the record, I've been asked by multiple women who have been happy to receive them. Perhaps we travel in different circles?

I would NEVER send one unsolicited, to a person who had not requested one. That is horrible, rapey bullshit. But let's not pretend that nobody is ever interested; many men and women like looking at wieners.

[ismnotwasm]

114. Heres this on consent

hat is Consent?

Consent is when someone agrees, gives permission, or says "yes" to sexual activity with other persons. Consent is always freely given and all people in a sexual situation must feel that they are able to say "yes" or "no" or stop the sexual activity at any point.

University of Michigan Policy & Procedures on Student Sexual and Gender-Based Misconduct and Other Forms of Interpersonal Violence​ defines consent as "a clear and unambiguous agreement, expressed outwardly through mutually understandable words or actions, to engage in a particular activity." Consent can be withdrawn by either party at any point. Consent must be voluntarily given and may not be valid if a person is being subjected to actions or behaviors that elicit emotional, psychological, physical, reputational, financial pressure, threat, intimidation, or fear (coercion or force). Consent to engage in one sexual activity, or past agreement to engage in a particular sexual activity, cannot be presumed to constitute consent to engage in a different sexual activity or to engage again in a sexual activity. Consent cannot be validly given by a person who is incapacitated.

At the heart of consent is the idea that every person has a right to personal sovereignty – the right to not be acted upon by someone else in a sexual manner unless they give that person clear permission. It is the responsibility of the person initiating the sexual activity to get this permission.

Consent should not be assumed

Each of us is responsible for making sure we have consent in every sexual situation. If you are unsure, it is important to clarify what your partner feels about the sexual situation before initiating or continuing the sexual activity. Consent should not simply be assumed by:

more:




https://sapac.umich.edu/article/49

[WinkyDink]

125. Some men like Louis CK just haven't gotten the "WTH CARES, YA PERVERT?!" message.

[Marthe48]

131. Years ago there was a Playboy cartoon

It was a guy on a psychiatrist's couch. The psychiatrist is saying something profoundly stated about men aren't defined by their penises, '...but nevertheless, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine.'

I can't help thinking that a lot of guys are hopeful if they lay it out, they'll get a reciprocal view. It doesn't make it right. I'm 65 and old enough to prefer the respect of keeping your privates private.

As I write this, I wonder if the Seinfeld episode about his friend on a date with Elaine, 'who took. it. out.' was about weinstein?

I don't make light of this. A close in-law from a younger generation has twice shown me texts of men's penises. I was embarrassed and wondered if I had done or said something that indicated I'd want to see pictures like that. I'm relieved that it is more likely that he was being a jerk. If it happens again, I'll be able to speak up and ask him to refrain.

[7962]

140. Why the heck is he showing you pics of guys penises???

[Marthe48]

179. I didn't know then and I don't know now

He said something at the time, such as 'do you believe somebody posted this?' I was stunned and missed the op to say, 'No and I don't believe you're showing it to me.'

I have told him a few mildly blue jokes, but after the pics, have stopped unless the joke is G rated. When I was a kid, my Dad had memorized over 500 punch lines and could tell entire jokes with just a small hint. We had a grocery store and his friends would come in and hang around to talk. I loved listening to him tell jokes, but he'd send me away if he was going to tell his friends anything that was too rank for a teenage girl. I used to tell anyone any kind of joke, but I've learned to censor myself over time, and try to avoid being inappropriate. I think I told him the one about the farmer trying to get his pig bred and taking it to another farmer's in a wheelbarrow. One of my favorite auctioneers told it to the crowd.

That is something I learned in the workplace-don't make eye contact, don't be inappropriate, being married doesn't matter and some guys will say things regardless. I ended up glad that I got a job working from home, it made things easier.

[Skittles]

134. correct

power, making women uncomfortable - that's what gets these guys off....they are SICK

[womanofthehills]

235. Agreed - I was driving in a rural area and a guy was really creeping me out because he

was on my bumper and would not pass me - if I sped up, he sped up - I slowed, he slowed. Finally, after about 10 min of this, he sped around me and took off in the distance. When I went around a curve, his car was on the side of the road - he was out of his car with no pants on waving his weenie as I drove by. SICK SICK SICK

[rock]

137. No penetration, no rape

It may be something else the law deems bad, but it is not rape. Conflating lewd and unseemly acts with rape shows bad reasoning.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

142. Rape CULTURE includes tolerance of sexual harassment.

Me

[rock]

145. I would have no dispute

If you called it SEXUAL HARASSMENT culture. "Rape" is too broad of a term for what you mean. You can't rape at a distance!

[50 Shades Of Blue]

163. Disagree. It's all part of the same dynamic where women are considered fair game for men

To brutalize with impunity. That behavior may involve physical force, or displaying one's dick and implying rape (which is exactly what showing off one's sexual organ to a woman who has in no way consented to see it, does). Rape culture is broader than physical force and it needs to be broader.

[rock]

169. Let me be clear (as clear as I can, anyways)

My objection is not the definition or the concept which you are trying to cover, it is to the term that is being used. I consider it a misnomer. The culture you describe includes rape, but rape is not all that is in it. You weaken the meaning of the word "rape" if you cover too much with it's use, and that's a shame; we need a powerful term for a vicious physical attack. I also realize that you (specifically you, 50 shades of blue) probably did not invent the term.

[ismnotwasm]

181. I was waiting for the rape culture denial

I’m surprised it took this long.

[rock]

183. I also mention Hitler

As soon as I can (if appropriate, which most times it is).

[LanternWaste]

204. You seem confused by a simple predicate-qualifier.

You seem confused by a simple and accurate predicate-qualifier, and are unable to support your premise with else but editorial.

[bettyellen]

170. Splitting hairs to defend this kind of shit is part of rape culture.

[rock]

174. What a mighty useful term

Now you've got it covering me and what I said. Reminds me of religion.

[LanternWaste]

205. As do your pronouncements

"Reminds me of religion..."

As do your pronouncements, justifications and dismissal of the actual topic to better use the The Availability Bias fallacy, focusing on a non-premise.

Good work.

[rock]

206. I haven't the vaguest idea of what you're talking about

[Steven Maurer]

209. The reason for the excess hostility is that they have no answer

Nudism is not rape.

That's obvious, and they know it. But tribalism and blanket condemnation is fun, and fits on a bumper sticker (meaning, it's short, pithy, and wrong). You don't have to deal with messy reality - like a conservative, you can just divide the world into black and white, in order to praise yourself for being good by comparing yourself to what you call evil.

But because such blanket statements are so stupidly indefensible, they fall into tribalistic hatred, and passive aggressive anger, when someone points out the truth to them.

If ever you want to understand how conservatives can deny the flat out obvious, Trump's inaugural crowd size for instance, this is exactly the mentality. The right wing may evince this sort of denial more often than the left, but the tendency is a human one.

[rock]

210. I fear you are right

Thx and welcome to DU. Hope you stay a while. (Of course you could be a long time but silent member!)

[kcr]

217. Then you should call yourself out as well

for conflating lewd and unseemly acts with harassment. As someone who is so concerned with using the right terms, I'm sure you'll thank me for the correction any moment now.

[rock]

218. You miss the point entirely

You can conflate whatever floats your boat. Conflation is not a logic error. However, it is clearly an error to mislabel it.

[kcr]

221. Tell that to yourself. Your own words: Conflating lewd and unseemly acts with rape shows bad reason

You seem confused.

[rock]

237. Well, I'll give you that

I am confused by what you're trying to say. You don't make any sense.

[SummerSnow]

141. cut it off

[pansypoo53219]

184. i see it more about de evolution. ooh. monkey man wants to show me his tool.

really? derision is a handy thing.

[obamanut2012]

196. I ahd something come up yestterday, and am just able to ome back to this thread

[Bradical79]

216. Sex assault of defended regularly on here

The George Takei thread was even worse, with some "even if true" types of defence. Maybe some of these old timers were cool with getting blackout drunk and fondled or whatever while unconcious. Doesn't make that kind of behaviour right.

[Cary]

251. Discussing an issue before reaching a conclusion isn't "defense" of rape culture

That's my only complaint. Wherever the line is drawn, it's drawn. I don't think anyone needs to sending naked pictures but then what bothers me here is that I don't want to know what happens between two consenting adults any more than I want to know whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or use birth control or whatever. I don't want to know who is having sex with whom.

To me consensual sex is a private matter and I shudder at the gossip and innuendo and whatever else.

I think the discussion is important and it should be had without the judgmental nonsense. Just because someone doesn't toe a particular line in that discussion doesn't mean that they should be opened up to accusations regarding their person, ridicule, or any kind of scorn.

[whathehell]

259. Male Privilege.

It's a thing.

[Loki Liesmith]

228. Even asking to see someones dick is a potential violation

Your scenario does not go far enough. Unless you *know* that your partner wants you to see his penis, asking him is a potential violation of his right to sexual privacy. You don’t know his history, any trauma he might have had. Asking him for something so deeply personal could go badly wrong.

[Cary]

252. So you would rely on the read the other person's mind exactly or else technique?

I don't see that as being practical. At the end of the day we have to take some responsibility for ourselves. If one cannot ask someone directly and then rely on a straight yes or no answer, then you're really advocating chaos. Aren't you?

I understand the concept being advanced about rape culture and I agree with it, but one has a duty to say no when they mean no.