Am I an "atypical" male? Recent news has me shaking my head...

[NRaleighLiberal]

I don't get it.

I grew up in a family with strong women figures - my grandmother, my mother (she really did most of the raising - my father, a great man, worked two jobs to make ends meet), my wife (of 38 years), my two daughters. Equality, respect - that I got, and got early.

I don't get the "manly man" thing - the oathkeeper thing, the stereotypes. I don't get the whole male dominated, patriarchal thing - never have. We've had neighbors when, at dinners or at parties, the man will suggest to me a great book about "men reclaiming their dominance, their place in the world". I just shake my head and walk away.

My wife and I talk about how we feel like the world is losing it - going insane. We are learning more and more about things that weren't as easily, quickly or widely disseminated, but surely happened. It is good that these things come out. It is baffling that they happen at all.

I've known enough men to realize that the news that is breaking around groping, abuse, crossing boundaries isn't shocking or surprising - but extremely disappointing. Power certainly seems to enable such behavior - among many other factors, certainly. Religion, culture - more important factors.

We have some real issues as a species, that's for sure. Human beings v0.1 (maybe we are just a beta version) are showing errors in the code. We may just be heading toward the experiment being closed down....maybe v1.0 or 0.2 can incorporate some badly needed fixes.

I know that this is convoluted, messy, maybe not even all that "sensical". I've been thinking these things ever since the access hollywood stuff came out on dump. His election despite that makes it worse. The continuing breaking news - Spacey, Franken, etc etc - it all must come out...but what will be done? Where will it all lead? how does this get confronted, honestly discussed....and the necessary changes embedded? No idea.....not in this climate.

[vlyons]

1. What else can you expect, when the objectification of women is everywhere?

Seeing women as entertainment objects for men's sexual pleasure is everywhere. TV, magazines, movies, online porn -- It's everywhere. You should never put your hands on anyone - male or female. The only exceptions are a handshake, and tapping someone's shoulder or elbow to get their attention. Even hugs and kisses among friends should be preceded with a polite request for a hug. How difficult is that to remember.

[Jim Lane]

15. I disagree about hugs.

You write, "Even hugs and kisses among friends should be preceded with a polite request for a hug."

There are women I've known for a long time (including but not limited to former girlfriends), and we customarily greet with a hug when we meet. She doesn't ask me for my consent and I don't ask for hers. It's implicit. Obviously, either of us could revoke the consent at any time, but there are situations in which the default, for something as comparatively innocuous as a hug), is that consent can reasonably be presumed, absent any indication to the contrary.

This should not be taken by anyone, male or female, as the beginning of a slippery slope in which consent to a lot of other contact is presumed.

[vlyons]

22. no problem with that

between long-time friends, who are in the habit of greeting hugs. But what about people, you've just met? r people who don't like hugging? Those are rhetorical questions.

[Chakaconcarne]

2. I grew up with many girls as best friends...

I didn't see that often with other guys who mostly had guys as best friends.

I cherished and learned a lot from these relationships...some of the best I've ever had... Never sexual in nature at all...just really close friends.

This is where I believe my respect for women was ingrained.

[moda253]

3. Despite your strong upbringing

Put you under a microscope and I am sorry but they would paint you as anything they wanted and you've likely given up enough evidence for them to do that. And you don't even know it.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. "They," lol.

[Aristus]

4. Right there with you.

I too had strong women in my life growing up.

My grandmother wore the pants in a very, very conservative Southern family. My grandfather, who had eight older sisters growing up who did everything for him, was essentially useless at activities of daily living. My grandmother paid the bills, bought the houses and the cars (in a time and a part of the country where, when a woman walked into a real estate office or a car dealer, was hit with "just come back with yer husband, gal, and we'll git this whole thang sorted out!&quot and plowed the course for both of them.

My mother kept my family from falling apart after my Dad skipped the country, leaving a trail of maxed-out credit cards and angry creditors for my mother to deal with. It was an awful time for her, and I remember her bursting into tears over her dinner plate at night, wondering how she was going to keep us going.

Most men stink to high Heaven. I hope I absorbed some good things from the women in my life who helped raise me.

[thbobby]

5. Boy's Life - Girl's Life

I remember seeing side by side comparison of Boy's Life and Girl's Life magazines. Boys - Astronaut, Scientist, etc. Girls - Look pretty, etc.

In high school boys were encouraged to be in sports. Girls were encouraged to be cheerleaders.

This shit is ingrained in our society. I struggled with teaching my daughter what bullshit it was when she was young.

Purging our society of misogyny needs to start at the bottom and work up.

The recent outing of men by victimized women is a great thing. Bringing this conduct to the public for all to see is necessary. But the overall problem runs much deeper and is deeply ingrained, starting in childhood.

[Irish_Dem]

6. Maybe men are hard wired to have sex with as many women as possible. Darwinism in action.

But as we become a civilized society can men control this and respect women?

[ancianita]

9. This is the core issue. Boys and men have to believe they can. Then try. Daily. Start by listening

to mom, girls, and how men listen to girls and women, as well. Study listening studies, and gender-dividing communications practices and language.

That would be a great start.

That alone could start a values change in how men define themselves, as a group, in relation to the rest of humanity.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Absolutely. We must all overcome our primitive selves. And became an advanced civilization.

You describe the process perfectly.

[ancianita]

13. It starts with the scientific tenet that our environment can overcome our genetic inheritance.

[Irish_Dem]

14. Men can overcome basic wiring which is to impregnate as many women as possible. They can learn new

behavior.


The strong sexual attraction to women is there to ensure the specie's survival. But that need is no longer relevant given the earth's over population and the damage to women by unwanted sexual advances, rape and harassment.

[ancianita]

17. Absolutely. The transformation of men, as a group, can happen globally within a generation. They

have all the tools they need.

But the inertia will come from giving up the economic and social benefits of the old constructs still structurally in place in global economics, governments, laws, ideologies and religious systems.

Those larger contexts make it too easy for men to throw up their hands and feel they can't make much long term difference.

[Irish_Dem]

18. Yes, they have the tools but will have to give up some power and control. And be honest about their

sexual issues. Will require honesty, strength and courage on their parts.

As has been required of women to start coming forward in large numbers.

[ancianita]

19. I'm glad to see that people now realize that this isn't just women's problem.

[Irish_Dem]

20. Yes, as painful as all of this is, it is a very good thing

It is a societal problem.

[Victor_c3]

7. The manly man thing annoys me to no end

In my opinion, it’s usually projected by guys who are weak and unsure of themselves. You have wear work boots, eat lots of meat, and drive an obnoxious diesel truck to pronounce your masculinity because, outside of those three things, you are anything but a real man.

[NRaleighLiberal]

11. I strive to be a real - genuine, honest - person. Period.

Kindness is important, too.

[dawg day]

12. A lot of us women have just given up...

Well, I should speak only for myself. Long ago (I grew up in the 60-70s), I adjusted my life to the expectation that many men would behave towards me in sexually inappropriate ways and that the best option was to avoid the situation. This has meant quitting jobs with a grabby supervisor, seldom walking alone at night, avoiding after-school happy hour meetings with the faculty in my graduate program so that the male students had more networking access, dressing down, all that. It's also meant ignoring and forgetting behavior that made me feel uncomfortable or pained from an intimate partner. After all, it certainly seems like most men (I know most probably is exaggerating, but a lot) rather casually and without much understanding cross lines that most of us women think of as, well, lines. So those of us who want to have relationships with men, what do you do? Work only with other women? Not date? Dump your child's father because a few times he pushed too hard to get what he wanted?

In fact, the cynic in me thinks that this-- women adjusting their lives downward to avoid these situations-- is actually part of the subconscious purpose of sexual harassment. Certainly male domination of graduate programs, just to take one situation, is reinforced when women students feel like they have to avoid socializing with the male faculty.

What do you do? I don't know. I do know that women who do speak out, who refuse to go on avoiding, who don't dismiss this as trivial, are to be admired, and I also know--we're seeing it now-- they will be vilified, including by other women. (I just got an earful from a woman friend who averred that SHE would have --even at 14-- stood up and said no and gone and complained to her mother who would have sued or beaten the guy up or something, and that any woman who didn't do that obviously didn't truly object-- you know, the "I'm tougher than you other gals" stance that is simultaneously boastful and blind.)

But really, guys. When even good guys are revealed this way, take a moment and think of your own behavior. Don't get defensive, or even self-hating. But it's time for MEN to do the discussing and the consciousness-raising and the uncomfortable self-analysis. Why do even good men do this? Is it some combination of peer pressure and sexual desire? Is it because sometimes (not always) you just don't think of women as people? Or what? And what are your solutions? We women can go on and on and say, "No means no!" and "Don't push yourself on someone who isn't interested" and "think of your daughters!" and all that. But in the end, men have to make their own understanding of what their behavior should be, and when and why they might fall short of that. It'll be an uncomfortable discussion, but someone like Franken might be a good person to start it.

[mercuryblues]

16. you bring up a lot of good points

I read a blog post by someone the other day and it was spot on. It basically boiled down to this point.

*Some* men are decrying the idea that they have to be careful how they interact with women, lest it be considered as sexual harassment.

Well WELCOME to OUR world. Where women wonder if they said or did something that a male co-worker construed that they were open to having their ass grabbed, propositioned, cornered in the break room, etc. We are constantly on guard to make sure we don't give off "signals" that could be misconstrued as giving off the tiniest hint that we really want it, deep inside.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

21. I don't understand people who want to dominate others, period.

There are people who score high in "Social Dominance Orientation" (SDO), and I suspect that sexual harassment is another aspect of it. Men are more likely to score high in SDO than women. (Republicans are far more likely to score high compared to Democrats as well.)

I work in a lab with a gorgeous young woman, but I'd be afraid of making her uncomfortable by even mentioning her beauty as a compliment.

A couple contractors leveled a marble table in the lab yesterday, and one of them did nothing except stare at her. How damn rude! At least he didn't catcall her or something even worse, but that kind of behavior from other men annoys me too.