Here's the dilemma re Al Franken

[no_hypocrisy]

There may be elements of truth or it may all be true.

But Franken can't use all available information about Luann Tweeden because it will immediately be labelled slut-shaming.

Even if you find information on Google that shows that Tweeden is less than modest, it may be irrelevant to the issue at hand.

I'm not defending either party but I am saying the old adage: There's his story, there's her story, and there's the Truth. (IOW, the color of Truth is gray.)

The dilemma is how can you logically prove a "negative", that you didn't do something, esp. if there were no other witnesses?

[greymattermom]

1. The photograph isn't a selfie

so there was at least one witness, most likely more if it was a rehearsal.

[lame54]

2. besides...

the media is showing the pic as proof that he groped her

in the pic he is not touching her - but they can't seem to see that

[Hoyt]

5. I know, but he is making light of "groping." In the future, such jokes should be used only

when ridiculing people who take advantage of these situations.

[lame54]

6. it's definitely tasteless...

but not proof of a crime

[Hoyt]

15. I don't think there is a crime either. Another DUer put it- "Inappropriate, Yes. Assault, No." n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

3. I meant for the alleged forced French kiss for the witness.

[Kaleva]

4. I think Moore is facing the bigger dilemma

Franken wants and will get an Ethics Committee investigation. Moore, if elected, will then surely face the same thing and my guess is that he'll be expelled from the Senate.

A big rat trap is being set for Moore. Maybe not on purpose but that's what's will happen.

[BannonsLiver]

7. I couldnt care less that she uses her sexuality as an income source.

If you’ve got it, flaunt it.

I’m more concerned about her political leanings which appear to be right wing. That raises some questions in my view.

[loyalsister]

8. We either value and accept the word of all victims

or we are hypocrites.

[no_hypocrisy]

9. With the proviso that the accuser be allowed to defend himself with

valid evidence. The victim has the PRESUMPTION of credibility.

[kcr]

12. Wrong. There's nothing wrong with disbelieving a story that isn't true.

That's true for anything. It is true that when it comes to rape and sexual assault women haven't been believed, and there has been a huge push to change that. Distorting that into all women have to be believed no matter the validity of the claim actually plays into the hands of those wishing to maintain the status quo. They actually claim that's the argument as a scare tactic and it's disingenuous.

[loyalsister]

13. Then why should anyone believe any of the he said she said allegations against GOP members?

You can't have it both ways.

[kcr]

14. So. Which ones are only "he said/she said". Moore's? Trump's?

Am I only a "She said" when I heard Trump say "Grab 'em by the pussy."? How about all the other 20 something odd women. How many of them are "she said?"

But yeah. I guess I'm trying to have it both ways. Whatever you say, loyalsister.

[loyalsister]

16. What is the incontrovertible evidence against Roy Moore?

He has denied the allegations. I believe his victims. All of them.

[kcr]

17. Well, he was actually banned from a mall, for one thing.

For another, there was at least one parent who testified to his behavior towards their child. If you're going to assert that we're not allowed to consider stuff like that when we're forming opinions and deciding whether there's equivalence or not? I'm going to just assume there's an agenda.

[loyalsister]

19. I'm saying exactly the opposite

My point is it's hypocritical to accept one story immediately and unconditionally while refusing to entertain the possibility that someone is being falsely accused out of partisanship. The abusive public smear jobs are at least as damaging as the acts themselves. The rest of us should be as respectful and dignified as Al Franken.

[standingtall]

10. Im sorry but Im not going to just automatically believe everyone who

makes a claim is being truthful. I will not go to that extreme. That would be ignoring the reality that people do sometimes make false allegations about things like these. The context has to be examined.

[BoneyardDem]

11. here's what seems genuine to me

“The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

“I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.

“But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

“For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

“Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.

“While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.

“I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.

“And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.”

I was going to highlight the important parts, but that left only a couple of words un-highlighted.

[Ken Burch]

18. If anything, the Tweeden photo may have been simple miscommunication.

Al thought Tweeden was in on the joke in that photo. She now claims she wasn't.
How do you prove what someone else was thinking about something?

(edited to make clear I don't think everything in this was "miscommunication".

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. You can question her credibility and any outside influence. That's not slut shaming.

That's a matter of getting to the truth ,regardless whether ultimately it helps or hurts Franken.