General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think the presumption of innocence for Ds and presumption of guilt for Rs
in criminal and civil matters makes DU look sort of hackish and stupid.
Let's get serious: if Franken was a Republican, none of this sophistry, slut-shaming, and equivocating would be happening at all.
Attaching the accuser to the party you don't like weakens the (righteous) outrage over cases that are far more compelling, and which have far more evidence, with greater implications, e.g., Moore.
It also perpetuates the inherently paternalistic, misogynistic view that political affiliations are primitive to w woman's credibility in such matters.
Just my opinion - flame away, call me a bot, whatever.
Watchfoxheadexplodes
(3,496 posts)They would have been eviscerated
MFM008
(19,814 posts)I think she looked at that picture
And thought what can I do with this.
I would have said it about a republican.
The only hack is making this allegation..
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Thanks for proving my point, though.
MFM008
(19,814 posts)in a staged photo.
If more accusers step fprward thats another matter.
I believe she looked at the photo and thought how she could make it work for her side.
I dont believe her. We democrats can be suckers
especially when we almost always do the right thing.
And the republicans always BRAZEN it out.
brooklynite
(94,589 posts)What a diabolical plot!
MFM008
(19,814 posts)that may expose her MOTIVES.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Sailor65x1
(554 posts)You are correct, but it's a tenuous position here at best.
On edit; tenuous meaning it could get your posts popped.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)We have been hypocrites and should have dealt with this correctly when the most high profile incident came to light. But, at that time most of us participated in the abusive smearing of women who told their stories about our president. We have a chance to set straight what we should have acknowledged 20 yrs ago. Women are most likely telling the truth about sexual harassment and rape when they come forward as victims.
I was wrong when I was complicit and I won't be again. No one can defend any of these men, call out the predators when they don't like them, and expect to be taken seriously when they say they care about what happened to the victims. It's time to get real and be honest about our heroes even if it hurts.
vi5
(13,305 posts)....It's really upsetting to me that I've wanted to make a post just like this, but didn't because I was fairly confident that it would get deleted and possibly get me banned.
We can't pick and choose which accusers we believe and which ones we don't. And just as you say, I was guilty of this back in the 90's and long before this current wave of accusations and accusers I felt uneasy about how I handled things and some things that I said.
No more. I'm done with it.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)The nagging question I now have is whether Trump would have been elected if we had drawn a line that said this is unacceptable behavior by anyone, in any instance, ever.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)All of the related harassment occurred during and around said skits.
What was Moore's excuse? Did he, like Al, apologize?
This is a false equivalence.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)MichMary
(1,714 posts)was not related to a skit. It was related to a sleeping woman who was vulnerable, and any decent person would have understood that whether actual touching was involved, snapping a photo like that was unacceptable.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)I think that to some people on both sides, it may be deeper than Republican or Democratic affiliation. Some people may see the person who stands accused as the embodiment of virtues that they have presented. In the case of Moore, there are people who believe that he is the righteous defender of the unborn and of Christianity that he claims to be. For defenders of Franken, some see him as a person who has tried to live a life of integrity and a champion of various good causes including his fight to bring justice to victims of assault during the Iraq War. That doesn't mean that they are innocent or guilty. Both could be either.
If all that someone sees to assume guilt or innocence is a (D) or an (R) by the name, then yes, that is being a partisan hack. For people who are conflicted because of their own beliefs, it can be more challenging, but I agree that if we are talking about consistency then if we believe the accusers of one, then we have to give that same respect to people who accuse those who hold some of our political beliefs as well. I think that the survivors deserve the respect to be heard. I do believe that the accused have the right to defend themselves, but above all, we need to be consistent about how we approach these matters.
Glorfindel
(9,730 posts)"primitive"? Maybe prohibitive? I understand your passion, but it shouldn't cause you to become incoherent.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)(of an algebraic or geometric expression) from which another is derived, or which is not itself derived from another.
SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)Glorfindel
(9,730 posts)Alas, I never had any knack for algebra or geometry.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)You should be flamed for this as it's an incorrect broad brush attack designed to make us all look bad. I don't recall "Weener" having a lot of support.
And yes, we use every moment we can to attack Republicans. Just something else you highlight as a negative.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Oh, yes he did.
It wasn't until more evidence came out that his support vanished completely.
Go check it out, you'll see I'm right.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Your broad brush attack is garbage.
"Weiner had ten tons of support in the beginning."
"Tons". Should be easy to capture us all in that one.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)you can search DU yourself.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Nice claim without verification. You call out tons of DU members and dont back it up.
I question your recollection of events. 😁
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"It wasn't until more evidence came out that his support vanished completely..."
That appears to be the relevant distinction better the then and there and the here and now.
moda253
(615 posts)So you are complaining about the ideal of innocent until proven guilty?
There is nothing wrong with supporting someone until evidence proves otherwise.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Kaleva
(36,307 posts)I don't see DUers shaming Kevin Spacey's accusers either.
Skittles
(153,164 posts)it's a bullshit assertion
BannonsLiver
(16,389 posts)It must be nice to be so blithely unaware of the world around you.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)sarisataka
(18,660 posts)Is the word you are looking for.
There have been many comments posted today that if you removed the names you could not tell if they were from here or Hannity
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)But I perceive it as plainly as day.
Ultimately it doesn't matter much - no one here matters of jurisprudence.
kcr
(15,317 posts)the instant an accusation, no matter how fishy it seems, is levied. Doubting this hinky accusation against Franken does not make one a hypocrite. Acknowledging that rape, sexual assault and harassment is epidemic does not mean you have to throw all logic, common sense and reason out the window.
Skittles
(153,164 posts)THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY POINT
lol
brooklynite
(94,589 posts)kcr
(15,317 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)But that's what many here are doing. Instead listen to her accusation, listen to Franken's response and then react. In this case Franken admits he made a mistake, meaning at least part of what she said is agreed upon to be true.
You know damn well any accusation against Republicans are immediately deemed to be true.
kcr
(15,317 posts)But there's nothing wrong with commenting on the fishy timing of it, or any aspects of the story you find suspect, either.
Orrex
(63,214 posts)You referred to Democrats (plural), so other than Franken, which Democrats are being unreasonably presumed innocent?
Wiener was condemned more or less from day one (and rightly so).
Grayson was harshly criticized for his treatment of his wife.
Edwards as universally vilified for his infidelity and cover-up.
Granted, Republican offenders seem to outnumber Dems by about a dozen to one, but who are the Democrats who, in your view, are getting a pass?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)You referred to Democrats (plural), so other than Franken, which Democrats are being unreasonably presumed innocent?
It's a matter of general opinion.
Wiener was condemned more or less from day one (and rightly so).
Disagree. It was about 50/50 for a while. But the point is this: were Weiner a Republican, the accusations would have been accepted as absolute, immutable truth from the get-go. How am I so sure of this? Find me one example of R figure accused of something similar (or even milder!) and tell me if even one person ever said, "Bullshit! It's Democrat dirty tricks!"
Grayson was harshly criticized for his treatment of his wife.
And was also defended rather vigorously.
Edwards as universally vilified for his infidelity and cover-up.
Yeah - it only took a couple of years or something like that.
Granted, Republican offenders seem to outnumber Dems by about a dozen to one, but who are the Democrats who, in your view, are getting a pass?
It's not about getting passes. I think I've articulated my point appropriately.
Orrex
(63,214 posts)Yeah - it only took a couple of years or something like that.
Further, since none of us here is empowered to issue binding legal decrees by fiat, we are under no obligation to presume innocence, and we are free to base our assessments on any of a range of mitigating factors.
That doesn't make us hackish; it makes us human.
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)You are pulling numbers and timelines out of thin air and made absolutely no attempt to back up your claims. You may have convinced yourself that your worldview is accurate but my guess is that you didn't do actual research because you may find the facts turn your worldview upside down. Or you may not have wanted to put in the great amount of time this research would require and thought it'd be much easier to fling stuff out there and hope it sticks.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Bonx
(2,053 posts)Staph
(6,251 posts)Moore is accused and instantly becomes defensive. "I never did this!"
Franken is accused and releases a statement of apology and requests that an ethics investigation be held. "I'm sorry!"
(And I think that the request for the ethics investigation is a brilliant move, similar to Obama's three-dimensional chess. If Al is investigated, then others accused of sexual harassment (and worse) must also be investigated. That's going to come back and bite Roy Moore in the butt, along with others. Nice move, Al!)
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)Set the stage to expel Moore if he wins the election.
Vinca
(50,276 posts)If Franken wasn't a comedian doing a comedy gig on a tour I would consider this a very serious matter. We now have reports the whole thing was staged. Al Franken is no Roy Moore. The GOP is desperate to deflect to the Dems. They might well find a Democratic politician who rivals David Vitter, but Al Franken isn't it.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)And is a Foxsports contributor.
That is a larger factor to me, in these initial stages of inquiry.
I think many are jumping to conclusions prematurely, but that happens everywhere in social media.
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)eShirl
(18,494 posts)Let the chips fall where they may.
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)Has any republican ever done that? Trump? Moore?
Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)No matter whether we like the perp or not.
gibraltar72
(7,506 posts)involved nuff said!
peggysue2
(10,829 posts)He is not equivocating. He is not blaming the woman. He is taking full responsibility regardless of the circumstances surrounding the picture taking. He is also openly inviting an ethics investigation.
From where I sit, this is the most honest response I've ever read. And for that, he has my support. Not for the stupid picture, but for a response that shows actual character, something in scant supply in DC circles. Do I suspect the reasons this picture was suddenly released? Yes, I do. But Al Franken does not go there. Instead, he stands up and invites his accusers to throw whatever they want while posting a genuine apology for his actions.
I do not see where this:
perpetuates inherently paternalistic, misogynistic view that political affiliations are primitive to w woman's credibility in such matters.
If anything, Franken has set an example of how a man takes responsibility for an act of sexual harassment once he's called out. You stand up, take ownership and apologize without trying to smear the woman involved.
For the vast majority of men this is a lot harder than it looks or sounds, particularly for those in the public eye. If only men who have been accused of far worse would follow the example set here, we might have a chance of reducing the toxic affects of sexual harassment, something that women are fully aware of and that too many men still deny.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,119 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)"If X happened, I will be sad. I do not wish to be sad. X therefore never happened."
Soxfan58
(3,479 posts)We can point out the way each handles the situation. Win goes to Sen. Franklin