I have met Al Franken and have chatted

[MineralMan]

with him a few times. I've also met and conversed with his wife, Franni and his daughter, Thomasin. All three are personable, friendly people who simply exude positive energy.

Might Al Franken have overstepped boundaries at some point in his life? Sure. I suppose so. But, such behavior is very, very uncharacteristic of him, I think.

[MFM008]

1. lucky you

Im sure it was fun.

[MineralMan]

3. Yes. Each of those times occurred at fundraisers.

I encountered all three of them outside of the main room of the event, each time, either waiting to make an appearance or staying out of the crowd for a time. Making conversation is always in order in such circumstances. That's why I tend to hang out in such places at events like that. There are often opportunities for a friendly chat.

My favorite occasion of all, however, that involved a celebrity was a potluck dinner fundraiser held for Garrison Keillor in San Luis Obispo, CA. He was right in front of me while waiting to pass down the food line and load our plates. We chatted while waiting. Then, after getting our food, we ended up sitting next to each other at one of the long tables, and continued to converse.

I came in late to the event, and just happened to fall in line behind the guest of honor. He's also a very likable guy and an outstanding conversationalist.

[ksoze]

2. Unfortunately that has nothing to do with predicting behavior

Moore's lawyer said he was an angel since he has known him.

[MineralMan]

4. Perhaps not. I don't know. I have not chatted with Roy Moore, so

I don't know what he would be like in such a situation.

[gilpo]

5. Me too.

I talked with him and Franni at Prior Lake High School at a primary debate-ish kind of thing. I have the same sense of him, MM. You never know for sure what's in a person's heart, though.

[pangaia]

29. Heart?

I knoe what you mean, but I don't think one's heart us involved here.

[dawg day]

6. That's where despair starts....

Seriously, I can't be the only woman here who just feels despair at this. Even the good guys-- What are we supposed to do, really? Pretend that the woman is lying (despite, uh, photographic evidence and his own admission)? Declare that it's anti-liberal to "go after" men who are generally good when they are not good? Ignore or "forget" incidents that happen to us and friends because they were committed by men we love or admire? That's what many of us have done all along.

Yeah, choice and marriage rights and Medicaid and everything-- those are more important than our own individual experiences, and yes, we sure want to elect people who are for those things even if they're not perfectly perfect.

But at least let's put it that way. "Hey, no one is perfect. We have to make trade-offs." That doesn't mean immediately accusing women of lying. That doesn't mean saying that women who complain are anti-liberal, or that liberal men should get a pass.
That really ought to mean that men and women consider this sort of behavior and its origins and why "good people" might engage in that sort of behavior. It doesn't mean ostracizing people who are otherwise worthy. But it also doesn't mean ignoring what is the reality for so many of us. That's called "gaslighting," and it's not healthy for either side.

[oasis]

9. "Photographic evidence"? A goofy photo is evidence?

[bagelsforbreakfast]

12. Exactly, someone really doing it would not have taken that goofy photo... n/m

[oasis]

13. That kind of "evidence" would be laughed out of court.

If anyone would be so dumb as to bring charges.

[dawg day]

14. "Up-photos" aren't groping either... and peeping tommery isn't raping...

but they're still =wrong=.

And not being able to bring charges (none of Moore's accusers can-- statute of limitations&quot doesn't mean that there's no wrong involved. He used a sexual situation -- however "pretend"-- to make fun of a woman who did not have the ability to respond, and one of his friends took a photo to memorialize it.
We don't have to hate him or love her to say-- jerky behavior. Not a crime, but jerky, male chauvinist behavior. We have the right to expect better of him. I think, to his credit, he's agreeing with that.

[oasis]

15. Yes I get it. Childish behavior:yes it is. nt

[FakeNoose]

25. She was a Playboy model. Al acted like a goofy teenager.

It was a joke. Funny? no!
Creepy? Not really, just dumb.

He wrote thousands of jokes for Saturday Night Live. Not all of them were "winners" - but enough of them were. He's a funny guy most of the time.

The photographer who was there taking the picture says she was in it. She played "asleep" so Al could do his thing.

[oasis]

27. It's considered, actual "groping" in certain circles.

People need to get out more.

[ollie10]

28. It makes no sense to believe Franken actually groped her....

1) the photograph does not appear that he is touching her

2) she is wearing a flak jacket....come on......if you groped someone through a flak jacket what would you feel? This is bizarre

3) would Franken really harass a woman/grope when he knew a photographer was right there?

4) was she really asleep or was this staged?

5) what does the photographer have to say about this?

i think it is quite possible that this was just a gag. Dumb, yes. The guy is a comic......not every joke is funny.....some bomb.

Before we jump to the conclusion that he was groping here or harassing her, we need more information.

My suspicion, from the timing of it, is that this is just trying to distract away from other things or give Moore voters a reason to go ahead and vote for him (after all, the Ds do it too.....yada....). Will there be anything to come of this? Maybe, maybe not.....but in the short term it serves its purpose. There is something about this that does not add up-

[dawg day]

34. She was a playboy model? He was a goofy teen?

Come on, give him the compliment of assuming he was an adult when he was, what, 40?

And even "Playboy models" don't give up their rights.

It might have been all staged, as you and the photographer say. But let's not make it sound like boys will be boys and women give up all rights to privacy because they posed nude.

[FakeNoose]

40. That's not what I said nt

[Generic Other]

37. Your version of the story somewhat confirms my suspicions

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9851684

[calimary]

38. Was she introduced as such at this gig? If she was there as so many beautiful women

who play roles in these things have been, and it was known back then that she'd been a Playboy bunny, then, okay, I get what the bit was about. Hell, I covered more than a few Bob Hope revues, including ones where he was about to board a transport plane to go to some faraway military base to entertain for Christmas. He'd always have the prerequisites: film, TV, and music celebrities to parade around onstage, to thrill all the lonely boys stationed so far from home. Whoever was hot at the moment, at the box office, on prime time, or on the charts. There'd be singers. Dancers too sometimes. An orchestra. Probably a popular band, too. There'd always be some fetching babe in the troupe - at least one. Like Raquel Welch. Joey Heatherton. Ann-Margret. Back in the day, Marilyn Monroe. And also, there'd sometimes be groups of them, like The Golddiggers. And they'd have costumes et al. Skimpy bathing-suit-competition types, glittering evening gowns, or looking cute and adorable in Army fatigues or other military gear. A lot of the humor would invariably be ribald and even juvenile in nature.

A lot has changed. Most significantly, there are more women in those audiences now. It's not just randy romance-starved young dudes. That makes a difference! Things change. Society and social norms and morals change and evolve. What used to be funny might not be so funny anymore. Could help explain why so many on the conservative side of the aisle are so uncomfortable with now, yearn for the "good old days" that they THINK they remember so fondly, when locker-room talk was shrugged off and boys would be boys. They still say one of the things they love about trump is the crude way he talks. They gush - it's "the way the Average Joe talks at the bar/garage/gym!" (To which I'd love to add - "okay, but would you want that crude-talkin' Average Joe buddy of yours to be PRESIDENT???&quot

That old schtick just isn't how it is anymore.

I tend to want to give Al Franken the benefit of the doubt. I've met him, too. Always loved his work. Even moreso as he turned into a talk show host and then finally got into politics, and I really liked where his head was. But I am not happy about this. It's good that he apologized. He damn well should have!

This should be a VERY keen lesson to each and every one of our Democrats. Yeah, nobody's perfect, but if you're gonna go into public life, BEHAVE yourself, DAMMIT! For Pete's Sake - DON'T GIVE THE BAD GUYS ANY AMMUNITION!!!

[Nitram]

21. It is possible the woman is in on the gag and is not actually asleep at all.

Let's see what comes of an investigation before we judge either of them.

[TNNurse]

26. I agree, this was a prank. It was not grabbing a teen age girl in a car

or stalking young girls at the mall.

It was wrong, but nothing compared to Moore or Trump.

[pnwmom]

17. The shadows on that photo make it appear to me that his hands are hovering, not actually touching

her. It's still wrong -- making a joke out of sexual assault is wrong -- but it's not an assault if there wasn't contact.

I wish the photographer would come forward. S/he might know what the context was, and if the woman was really asleep or not.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

35. Give the photographer time to come forth.......

He/she is the key here with the photo..

[pnwmom]

36. Also, I finally noticed there is a man to the right of them, who might know

if the whole episode was staged and whether the woman was really asleep or not.

[SaschaHM]

7. I took a class w/ a football player embroiled in a rather public/national rape scandal.

He seemed like a nice guy.


There isn't a badge that people wear and in most cases, it will be "uncharacteristic" of them to have committed such an action.

The Franken story aside, you'd be surprised by the number of women that have been harassed/assaulted by a nice guy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. In his statement he accepted responsibility. More importantly, I think,

he identified something that hasn't been discussed very much, and should be: What's really important isn't what the man intended by his actions but how the woman perceived them. Roy Moore is clearly a predator and I doubt very much that Franken is. But the thing that men (in particular) should be aware of is the fact that even if they intended an action or a comment to be just harmless, off-color joking or fooling around, there's a strong likelihood that the woman on the receiving end will perceive it as predatory and invasive and offensive (even if she seems to laugh it off, not wanting to make waves).

This is because women are in effect prey animals where sex is concerned. Like rabbits or deer, we are always on the alert because we know that we're always at risk. Wherever we go and whatever we do, sooner or later some guy is going to hit on us, slap our butt, make a suggestive remark about our looks, ask about our sex life, feel us up, or otherwise invade our space and sense of safety. Maybe something worse. This is a fact. This is why all this stuff is coming out now. It happens all the time and to almost all women. Which isn't to say all men do these things, but many do, including some men we would call good guys, like Al Franken.

Many men who are not predators (e.g., cruising shopping malls for attractive young high school girls) still don't seem always to understand boundaries, and that sexually-tinged behavior that they think of as just having a little fun, and with no intent to go any farther, is nevertheless likely to be perceived by the woman "target" as invasive and disturbing and not funny at all. So the woman who complained about Franken (and I will presume her version of the incident to be accurate unless some information comes out showing it isn't) took his stage kiss as going way too far and crossing a line, even though that might not have been his intent at all. In our culture, unfortunately, women are seen as the objects, willing or otherwise, of sexual actions, with the result that sex-related humor too often makes women the butt of the joke (pun intended). Nobody likes to be the butt of a joke, especially a sexual one where you are the powerless participant. Al Franken seems finally to be getting the point, and good for him.

[MineralMan]

10. Perceptions appear to be a primary thing in all of this.

How well or accurately people perceive others always seems to be a problem. In some situations, people are very, very hard to read. We're all pretty good at putting a face on things that may not reflect our internal thinking.

Sometime back in my mid-20s, I decided to simply stop taking the initiative when it came to sex. Instead, I let the other person take it. Now, that may have led to a different set of misunderstandings, but it also prevented my misreading of a situation from causing offense in someone else.

That was my choice of a way to avoid issues with regard to sexual activity and physical intimacy. It worked fine, although there may well have been times when nothing happened that might have, due to my decision. I don't know, really. But, I stopped initiating, in any case.

Relationships between people are complicated. No question about it. I don't know the answer.

[peggysue2]

11. This!

1000x.

[calimary]

39. Such a great point!

"What's really important isn't what the man intended by his actions but how the woman perceived them."

[DesertRat]

16. Sounds like you had some fun encounters.

And it has NOTHING to do with whether or not he forced himself on a woman.

[MichMary]

18. Still feel this way?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9834292

But don't talk to me about "not proven guilty." I don't care. (snip) Do you really want some dirty old man representing you in the Senate? Really?

[MineralMan]

19. Yes, I do. Thanks for asking.

[MichMary]

23. Does that mean

that you are calling on Sen. Franken to resign? Just wondering if your standards will be the same here.

[Nitram]

20. Franken wrote in his recent biography that he had often made the mistake of crossing certain lines

in his comedy. As far as I know, he never crossed any lines in his day to day behavior. I think it is possible a Trump supporter is distorting a comedic gag from long ago for political purposes. However, Franken has done the right thing, apologized and invited an investigation. I suspect an investigation would confirm that not a single other person present at the time will support the accuser's version of events. Remember, according to the accuser's report, there were always other people present during the alleged violations. Let's wait and see before we judge either of them.

[DesertRat]

22. I watched her news conference. This is about more than a comedic gag. nt

[Nitram]

24. According to her story. Let's see wht an investigation turns up.

other people were present on every occasion she mentions.

[rickford66]

30. Neither Moore or Frankin would kiss you.

I think highly of Al, but he may pay the price. More politicians will be going down.

[MineralMan]

31. Perhaps. But, perhaps his open acceptance of responsibility and apology

will prevent paying a high price. Let the chips fall as they may, though. Maybe we can finally get an equal number of women taking seats in our state legislatures and Congress. Now, that would be a major movement toward real equality, I think.

[Mr.Bill]

32. I heard an interview with Al Franken once.

Can't remember who was doing it or where. It was before he ran for office. It was a gotcha question. He was asked if he ever used cocaine during the early days of SNL. Now we all assume there was plenty of coke going around then, so if he denied it, many would not believe him.

His answer, without hesitation was "Yes I did, but only enough to stay awake and make sure no one else used too much." Brilliant.

[progressoid]

33. That story is in his latest book too. n/t