This is really disheartening. I thought I'd find some rational discussion of the accusations

[Atticus]

against Al Franken. Instead, I find primarily two camps:. one calling for the senator to resign immediately because we should "always believe the woman" and another claiming the accuser is lying because she "supports Trump". In the middle, trying not to get trampled, are a few souls daring to stick to facts (the photo sure doesn't appear to show Franken actually touching her) and point out mischaracterizations (Franken did NOT apologize for "groping" Ms. Tweeden).

Simple-mindedness is not confined to the Dark Side. I'll check out for a while.

[jodymarie aimee]

1. Eliot and I have also

for all your reasons.....

[SaschaHM]

4. Um, Elliot is the one running around saying that the fact that

no witnesses were at the rehearsal where the kiss allegedly took place means that the accuser is making it up.

To portray him as some sort of rational middle grounder after that and his post about Franken's integrity would make him confess is laughable and you know it.

[comradebillyboy]

2. Yes, I'll join you on the sideline waiting for a bit more clarity.

[Kaleva]

3. Franken apologised and wants an investigation

There really isn't any reason to try and claim that the woman is lying. The woman has also accepted Franken apology.

[SaschaHM]

5. Trying to be rational is met w/ accusations.

I'm "outraged" and have "convicted" Franken because I would like the actual source of a tweet from the "photographer" and think that his public persona has no bearing on what he may or may not have done in public.

Personally, I've tried to avoid definitive statements on what Franken should do. That doesn't mean I won't speak up when "well she wore this outfit" bullshit pops up.

[MaryMagdaline]

19. No one owns "rational"

It's rational to sit back and wait. It's also rational to look at a photograph and when our representative does not claim that the photograph is doctored, to accept that photograph as evidence in making up our minds. ... just as I accepted the year book signed by Roy Moore and the accounts from the people who worked at the mall that he was banned from the mall. If we are waiting to witness the event with our own eyes, that will never happen.

I love Al Franken, but what we stand for here is the weak vs. the powerful. If we stand up for the weak, we stand up for Democratic values.

[SaschaHM]

21. And I applaud you for that and I agree with you.

That being said, you're probably going to be accused of being outraged and convicting him without a trial for your comment. That's where we're at now.

[MaryMagdaline]

46. Alas

It's happened. I've been labeled a Russian troll; a newbie who has insufficient posts to be taken seriously on this site.

Anyway, feeling better about things since Al has handled this well. He may have made a mistake years ago, but he's doing the right thing now.

[pangaia]

6. Tell me about it.

I can't believe this is happening here.
Well, actually I can.


Sad.

[ollie10]

7. A friend of mine's foster child.....

was a nut case. She falsely accused a neighbor of molesting her. She bragged about it and all the scene it caused all the way to juvenile court. The poor sucker didn't know what hit him. Later in the year she falsely accused a teacher of hitting on her.

This girl was/is a damaged person, no doubt because of things in her past. However, she was/is a psychopath.

In both cases it took a long time for the truth to come out, that she was just blowing smoke. She got lots of sympathy, tons of attention, and I am afraid both of her victims suffered from the false accusations.

No, it was not sexist to sympathize with her victims.

i think of her when I see men accused of stuff. Yes, it does happen that innocent men are falsely accused.

[Kirk Lover]

13. It happened in my office and the woman wasn't a nutcase. She flat out lied.

[RussBLib]

15. I'm sure you are right

There will always be odd cases like that, in every direction. I suppose there is no way to compile accurate statistics on this topic, which allows people to claim whatever they like.

By my experience, I'd say that the ratio of true male offenders vs men who have been falsely accused is probably 10-1. I have personally known several sexist pigs (men) who would taunt and harass when they had the opportunity, in work situations of authority and social situations. I've never known a woman in a position of authority (and I have worked for several women over my careers) who harassed any men or abused that authority and showed gender favoritism. I've never know a woman who made the kinds of false charges you wrote about, but I'm sure they exist.

I just noticed Sarah Palin say on MSNBC that in this (current sexual harassment) climate, she hopes no women decide to make false charges just to try to ruin someone. I agree with Sarah.

[MichMary]

17. Yes

Just like the Duke lacrosse players. A very troubled woman made an accusation that could have destroyed those young lives. If not for a time-stamped receipt, they would probably have ended up in prison.

[Laurian]

8. I'm with you, Atticus. I'm fucking worn out.

I'm gonna step back until the dust settles.

[flamingdem]

9. These charges against Al Franken in that stage of his career are total bullshit

Do we have to be so high minded that we eat the crap coming from the far right and regurgitate it on to some of our best and brightest?

Do not get caught up in this.

[NCTraveler]

10. I don't fall into either of your two camps.

I don't know if she is truthful and I don't want him to resign. I would like an ethics investigation, as Franken has called for.

[BoneyardDem]

11. It's dishearteing that he offered an epic apology, owns it and admits there are issues?

can't even imagine how disheartening it is to be one of Trump's or Moore's accusers.

[MaryMagdaline]

12. I believe her

Touching someone's breasts, or feigning touching someone's breasts, while they are asleep and cannot retaliate is pretty gross. Tells me all I need to know in this he-said/she-said matter, if this is what this is. Seems more like a she-said-and-she-has-photographic-evidence matter. Al apologized for the kiss. He is not a liar. He either (a) does not remember grabbing her breasts; can't remember whether he did or not but since it is POSSIBLE he did such things in the past, he can't deny it; or (b) he grabbed her breasts.

There are times in our lives we have to come face to face with the fact that we are assholes. Some men on our side are going to be finding out in the next few weeks, if they haven't already found it out. Some of the men are going to become better people after this. I for one will accept them back in the fold only after they apologize and make amends.

While I don't think people like Al are sexual deviants, I just think that they do not see the person on the other end as human or equal. I for one, never kiss a child who does not want to kiss adults, nor did I ever hug my dogs or invade their space when they were not wanting to be near me. Shoot, I DON'T EVEN LIKE PEOPLE WHO HUMILIATE THEIR DOGS WITH REINDEER HATS.

For all the bullies out there reading these stories, knowing that the people are siding with the victims, maybe, just maybe, they'll keep their fucking hands to themselves.

[.99center]

20. "Seems more like a she-said-and-she-has-photographic-evidence matter."

Have you seen CNN's apple commercial? A shadow is a shadow. Al didn't touch or grope her in the photo.

[MaryMagdaline]

24. he just feigned groping?

As I said before, he probably does not remember, or he would have denied it. And not remembering is not a good thing, because it tells me he could have done something like this and thought nothing of it.

[.99center]

34. Yes, look at the picture.

You can be outraged at Al feigning groping, it's unacceptable if she didn't agree to it but let's stick to the facts.

[MaryMagdaline]

35. What facts are those?

The fact that she said he touched her or only those facts that you can verify by photograph? cuz, I am pretty sure he could have touched her BEFORE the picture was taken or AFTER the picture was taken, and the fact that the picture does not capture the touch, does not mean that he did not touch her. (Plus, lack of a denial from Al Franken)

[.99center]

39. She claims that Al was groping her in the photo.

The picture proves he didn't lay a finger on her.
No one besides you is claiming he touched her before or after the photo.

[Ms. Toad]

44. As to the groping,

she had no recollection of being touched.

She became aware of it - and believes he touched her - only becasue of what is depicted in the photograph. So she didn't say he touched her - what she said was that the photograph shows he touched her. Personally, I can't tell from the photo whether there was contact or not.

Certainly touching her without her consent (and kissing her without consent) is wrong. Period.

But don't blow her allegations (the photo shows he groped me) into more than they are (I have independent recollection of him groping me).

[Stinky The Clown]

14. It is a bit unfair to say an expressed perspective is avoiding discussion

I'm getting flamed for expressing an opinion by those who see things one way or another. Black and white.

I contend that on this day, in this climate, we need to be consistent in how we deal with these accusations. Accept them at their word or not. Just be consistent.

[loyalsister]

40. Yes

I just think we should listen to the victims who are coming forward without digging into their political history or otherwise trying to discredit them. He seems to be handling it in a way that respects her point of view and acknowledges his inappropriate behavior. It seems that he is not looking for supporters to give a knee jerk partisan defense. I think he is handling it honorably and there is no need for attack or defense.

[LanternWaste]

16. Had this happened in a vacuum, I'd be inclined to believe any accusation

Had this happened in a vacuum, I'd be inclined to believe any accusation and eat my words at a later date should the situation warrant doing so.

As it stands, I reserve both my faith and my skepticism and await further context and detail. If that is my bias outweighing my rational though, so be it-- my opinion holds little weight, no consequence and changes nothing that happened, is happening or will happen.

A main frustration however (and this is limited to DU), was this morning's immediate and vociferous condemnation by posters who (at best) show little regards for gender equality and women's rights, and often are the first to "suggest" to DU we "wait and see," their minimization and trivialization over the last two weeks of the MeToo campaign, and their complete and abject silence in regards to the predatory actions of Moore, Trump, et. al.

[Lee-Lee]

18. If the picture didnt exist I would be much more dubious

But the picture is obviously inside a C-17 in flight, as seen by the fact you can see a typical yellow earplug in Frankens ear.

I’ve flown those same planes wearing body armor just like that and have fallen asleep just like that, so I can easily put myself in her shoes as to what it would feel like to discover that photo existed later.

And the things going around that it was a gag and people were pretending and playing around- you can’t hear someone speak in false planes in flight, so you don’t do complex “skits” like that or act. But I could easily see him handing his camera to someone to get a picture and then posing like that.

[.99center]

22. Is Al groping her in the photo?

[Lee-Lee]

23. Even if hes just pretending to its unacceptable

If the act is unacceptable than pretending to do it, mocking it is just as unacceptable.

Is he had pretending to unzip his pants and shove his penis in her face as she slept would it be ok as long as he didn’t actually do it?

Like I said, I’ve been a woman asleep in those same seats on that same kind of plane wearing the same body armor- and if I woke up to find out that people had done that to me as I slept it would NOT be acceptable.

[MaryMagdaline]

25. Exactly!

It's the put-down and humiliation of the non-person in front of you.

[BannonsLiver]

26. You mean like her FHM covers?

[Lee-Lee]

28. Those were her choices she consented to

Do you understand the concept of consent?

And nothing she did before or after changes anything that happened there. She could have lined up and let everyone else on that plane fondle her breasts because she liked it and it will still be just as wrong for someone to pose like that as she slept.

[BannonsLiver]

32. You bought the sleeping thing?

LOL

People can do what they want, but it's hard to see how magazines dedicated to making women nothing more than orifices for men to insert things into advances the cause at all. I think we've all seen what a steady diet of that shit can do to some men. If I were a woman concerned about this kind of issue I wouldn't be promoting something that promotes objectification. But hey, I bet the check cleared.

On edit: I saw you mentioned you had flown on C-17s. I'll take your word for it. But it doesn't mean anything to me at all beyond the anecdotal.

[Lee-Lee]

43. Ive slept the exact same way in those same seats

So yeah, I buy it.

And your line of reasoning about what magazine photos she has done lowering any legitimacy she had to object to that behavior is the same disgusting mentality that says a scantily dressed woman was asking for the sexual assault or that a woman who sleeps around was just asking to be date raped based on her past behavior.

[atreides1]

33. The best way to settle the photo question?

They will need to find everyone who was on that flight, especially the photographer, and determine if this was a joke done with her full participation, or if it was Franken doing something stupid, without her knowledge!

[Cattledog]

30. It was mentioned in another thread that it was taken with her camera.

If so that's an interesting sidebar.

[Irish_Dem]

27. I think we sit tight and let the truth emerge. nt

[brush]

37. And add to it the Roger Stone tweet of yesterday about something coming to Al Franken

How did he know that?

There's more to come on this story.

[Irish_Dem]

45. You are most likely right on this.... nt

[lagomorph777]

29. You nailed what I was going to say.

I tried to respond about the story myself and couldn't find a way to avoid bias. It does sound sort of in-between to me.

[gibraltar72]

31. Roger Stone

Nuff said!

[bluestarone]

36. yep

nuff said

[VMA131Marine]

38. While there seem to have been no witnesses to Franken's "forced kissing" of Tweeden

clearly there are multiple witnesses to the "groping" incident in the photo. Tweeden's credibility hinges on whether the other people in and out of shot on that photograph remember the event the same way she did, assuming they can be found.

All bets are off if other women come forward to report other incidents and they start to look like a pattern of behaviour.

Either way, the photograph is inappropriate and Franken has done the right thing by asking for an investigation into the events. At the same time, that Roger Stone appeared to have prior knowledge of this story coming out just reeks of a RW smear job to escalate questionable and inappropriate behaviour into something much worse.

I think the Russian word is "компромат"

[progressoid]

41. rational discussion...

on DU....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Random points

1) I don't think Al Franken should lose his job over a lone accusation of sexual misconduct.
2) I hope and pray no more victims come forward.
3) We need a scale. Kissing a grown woman under false pretenses isn't nearly as odious behavior as attempted rape of a sixteen year old girl.
4) I don't buy the rehearsal explanation. His victim didn't.
5) If this was a Republican I would be doing handstands
6) The hardest thing to do is to judge your friends by the same standard you judge your enemies.
7) What you do in the darkness will be brought into the light.
8) When we discredit the source how different is that than the Deplorables discrediting the source when the perpetrator is one of them.