To The Franken Must Resign Crowd

[ProfessorGAC]

An obvious bit by a comedian compares perfectly to a guy undressing a kid, making her touch his dick, and touching her private places through her underwear is the same! Really?
A guy who is trying to rehearse a comic bit by getting his VOLUNTARY acting partner to practice a kiss, is the same as a 30+ year old professional politician trying to make a 16 year old girl give him head? Really?
Are you kidding me?
This is an obvious RW hit job!
Shame on anyone who got fished in!
BTW: You've got a hook in your mouth.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. Franken may have pushed past bounds on kiss, but nothing like a 30 yo Moore assaulting a 14 yo.

Period.

One is somewhat disgusting, but the other has no statute of limitations for the reason that it messes up people for life from a young age.

Plus Moore assaulted a second girl.

Plus Moore exhibited a pattern of predating on teen girls. Grooming them.

No comparison.

[trof]

5. SHE SEZ

You accept her word?
Why?
Because she's a woman?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

9. I didn't say that.

What I will say, is that when someone makes a public accusation of sexual misconduct bordering or crossing the border into sexual assault, it should be taken seriously and investigated to some degree. Not necessarily a federal case and not necessarily a Congressional ethics investigation. Some degree of investigation. Franken's accuser wasn't investigated even by a journalist before it was run with. I do not think Franken's case should go before Congressional Ethics, but if it does I am sure the worst outcome for him will be along the lines of a statement that that behavior is not Senatorial, but no further action is justified.

Notice I am not referring to any gender identification.

[EllieBC]

16. Oh so do we doubt all accusers then?

Or just political enemies who are accusers?

As always women can only be trusted so much much, right?

[catbyte]

21. What makes the whole thing reek to me is that Roger Stone & some creep from Infowars

tweeted about "something happening to Franken" THE NIGHT BEFORE the story broke like it was planned. That's never happened with any of the other accusers. What makes it even smellier is that Hannity said on his show today that she'd showed him that pic "years ago." Why the big kerfuffle now? And why does she suddenly accept his apology, NOT want an investigation, or for Franken to resign? There is a lot to be skeptical about with this one.

[EllieBC]

24. Franken said do an investigation. So do one. I'm not calling for him to resign.

But this "we don't believe accusers who aren't Democratic Party supporters" reeks of the ususal garbage that women who are victims of assault normally put up with.

[catbyte]

32. I disagree. I don't see anybody saying they should ignore the allegations just because

Franken is a Democrat & she's a Republican. I'm saying is there's something off about this one. I'm repulsed by Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey--both Democrats--just as much as I am with Roy Moore. I just think you're wrong.

[ollie10]

52. This doesn't pass the smell test.....

What Franken did was certainly in poor taste, not exactly high level humor, and juvenile.

But groping?

Come on. that is a stretch.

It doesn't look in the photograph that he was touching her.

She was wearing flak jacket....give me a break.

He was looking at the camera with a dramatic smile....looks like an acting job.....if he was seriously groping, wouldn't his eyes be on her?

And....the elephant in the room.....why would he seriously grope when he knew it would be on camera?

This does not add up.

Poor taste? Sure. A lot of stuff on SNL is in poor taste, for that matter and I am a fan.

Something does not add up.

[EllieBC]

63. It's not the same level obviously as Moore or even Louis CK. But it's still

repugnant. Sexual jokes are what women have been told to suck up and deal with for a long time. Maybe some of us don't want to anymore?

[calimary]

88. A very good point.

Last edited Thu Nov 16, 2017, 10:50 PM - Edit history (2)

It can't be okay no matter who does it. Either it's okay or it's not.

On edit - I still have so many mixed feelings about this. I stand by the sentence above. But I also believe in forgiveness and redemption.

I can believe her, while still being mindful of what even conservative talk show host John Ziegler said about this - and I'm no fan of his.

John Ziegler: I Loathe Al Franken, But It Sure Seems Like He is Getting Totally Railroaded
https://www.mediaite.com/online/i-loathe-al-franken-but-it-sure-seems-like-he-is-getting-totally-railroaded/

And if we're skewering Al Franken, who's gone beyond what a lot of these cads including "our 'pResident'" AND certainly Roy Moore, in acknowledging, and apologizing for it. He said so right away, too, while the story was still new. Since I've always liked him and enjoyed his work, whether as a comedian/satirist or talk radio host or elected politician, I'm predisposed to give him the benefit of the doubt. If it's not okay when Franken did it, then it isn't okay when Roy Moore goes even lower and preys upon adolescent and teenage girls. And it isn't okay when the vulgarian who ran for president last year brags and gloats about grabbing women by their genitals and walking in on young pageant contestants while they were dressing, some of them nude. NONE of them should get a pass, then.

I've looked at that USO tour photo a LOT. It looks like a VERY stupid sight gag. I think many of us may have seen people we know, posing foolishly on Instagram and Facebook. I've read that it was staged, but watching MSNBC just now, Rachel Maddow said his accuser was asleep. I'm not necessarily a fan of pranks. Photos of them follow you for life. Some pranks are just stupid - like your dorm mates write all over your face with Sharpies when you've drunk too much at a party and passed out. Some are criminal, like when a woman is given too much to drink at said party and passes out - and then is raped. I hope Rachel isn't right about this.

But then, on further edit, bringing the whole Roger Stone angle into this - remember, he has proudly declared himself to be skilled at political "rat-fucking". I wouldn't put anything past him, including this. And further, the KABC radio angle means it was friendly territory. I bet he knows people at that station. Wouldn't take but a gossipy phone call or two to launch a plan to screw a strong and popular Democrat.

[azureblue]

74. plus

Stone waited until he had a lot of people ready to pile on when he released this story. That is the tell right there. This is a hit piece.

And the tour photog says it is staged and she was not asleep. So let's investigate who started this smear campaign. Yes, Al, let's have an investigation and bring these cockroaches out and squash them. It's about time the smear masters like Stone get their just desserts....

[Jim Beard]

99. Hey, he was a comedian then.

[adigal]

65. I don't doubt her at all....however, aren't we able to understand degrees of bad behavior???

Dems always eat their own. The Republicans has a sex offender as their leader, and want to send their pedophile to the Senate, but yes, let's force Franken to resign right this very second. Doesn't matter that he called for an investigation. Doesn't matter that the charges are far less serious than those against Trump and Moore. Let's get rid of this guy right NOW, this guy that is a strong voice against Republicans who, if they had their way, would:
- take away our healthcare
- take our $$$ and give it to billionaires
- take away kids' healthcare
- put Muslims in camps
- kill every elephant on the damn planet
- throw every immigrant, legal or illegal, out of the country
- put Hillary in jail
- throw reporters in jail
You know what this is like???
"But her emails!!!!!"

[brush]

69. Are you aware that cretin Roger Stone tweeted last night that something was coming to Franken today?

That smacks of a set-up IMO.

[R B Garr]

91. Wow, missed that. That's very interesting. Since Franken is smiling at the camera,

and the woman looks to be dressed for a comedy skit instead of in an actual work setting, then it does put an interesting twist to Roger Stone's announcement.

[azureblue]

71. no - we look at the effin photo

Jeez, are you blind or something? look at the picture. Al is not touching her. There is a shadow cast upon her vest by his hands, and the fingers of both hands are curled in too much.
So, for the utterly clueless - you can't have your hands on a person's body and have those hands cast a shadow. And, if the hands were in contact with the body, the the fingers would be flattened out. So, he is not touching her and touching is groping. What Trump does is groping.

At best, this could be construed as a lewd gesture. But, this is a rehearsal for a skit and the woman is a GOP nut, so her motivations for greatly exaggerating this event are suspect. Her description does not match the picture. And note that Roger Stone is involved with this, so thsi looks a lot like a distraction attempt.

Al is right to call for an investigation. Let's see what the other people who were there have to say. Let's ask her why the picture doesn't match her description - are there other pictures or testimony that would support her story? Let's ask her what her role was on the USO tour and if she did skits with Al. Let's ask Al teh same questions. And my guess is this will end up being yet another GOP distraction piece based upon a liar who got paid to lie about Al.

[jl_theprofessor]

75. Of course we doubt accusers

They bear the burden of proof that their claim is true. A defendant is always presumed innocent until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt.

[EllieBC]

81. And that's why women struggle to come forward or seek legal remedy

when they are victims. Who the hell wants to be re-victimized all over again when you're accusing someone's hero or idol be that the local quarterback or a Senator with a good record. Not worth it.

[jl_theprofessor]

98. There's a difference

Between doubting the accuser and slandering the accuser. But never should an accused individual be presumed guilty prior to a full investigation and trial.

[yurbud]

93. the details are somewhat different. If she told the story to people before, I'd like to hear

how it was told then.

[WyLoochka]

111. Being a woman does not automatically convey truthfulness

Women lie, men lie. The truth comes out in an investigation, unless it's poorly conducted.

[Loki Liesmith]

127. All accusers in any situation should be doubted

Regardless of the crime. Doubt does not mean to reject or to forego investigation.

Doubt is a great thing. It forces us to adopt strong standards of proof. It does not mean you don’t believe the person believes what they are telling you. It means accepting the possibility you aren’t getting the complete story.

I doubt Franken’s accuser and I doubt Moore’s accusers. Although the sheer number of the latter has lessened my doubt.

I also doubt Franken’s story and Moore’s stories. I’m fairly sure they don’t present the whole truth either.

Doubt is not the opposite of belief. It’s what makes belief possible.

[whopis01]

113. Are you saying you dont accept the word of Moores accusers?

Because it sure sounds like that’s what you are saying.

[B2G]

35. Sexual assault falls on a spectrum of behaviors.

Stop the belittling those you don't think are "serious" enough for condemnation.

It makes you appear ignorant.

[BannonsLiver]

61. You know what else is ignorant?

People who willfully ignore facts.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

72. 1) I'm not belittling. 2) Do not accuse me of being ignorant when

1) I'm not belittling. You can't point to it.

2) Do not accuse me of being ignorant when your screen is so reflective.

[Eyeball_Kid]

70. Franken objectified and did abuse power.

True.

Moore is a serial stalker and molester.

True.

[azureblue]

73. show where Al did as you accuse

we're waiting. Nothing to support your accusation, then GTFO

[Jim Beard]

101. I am waiting with you!

[whopis01]

114. The photo is clearly objectification

There are no two ways about that. Even Franken would agree to that. Just look at what he said about it:


It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it

[RVN VET71]

105. If Tweed's version of the story is true, yes, somewhat disgusting.

But I think she's lying. Not completely, maybe, but certainly exaggerating the truth. Franken -- who, unlike Trump, actually does have a good brain -- says his recollection of the incident is not the same as hers. I believe it more likely that she approached (or was approached by) Stone who helped her describe the event in a way more appealing to the sleazy right wing and Fox.

Unless other women come forward with credible accusations against Franken, I'm standing with Al. (But, of course, if additional, and credible, accusations are made, I'll be extremely disappointed and hope he resigns.) As it stands now, this evening, I can say to the RW: Really? Is this the best you got?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

110. I'm basically with you, but a bit more open to possibility of either one telling the truth, or both.

Sometimes over time, two people's recollections of an event drift apart without trying to be untruthful.

[Squinch]

2. Whether it is the same as Moore is not the point. We know it is not the same. No

one thinks it is the same.

The question is: is it appropriate or does it rise to the threshold of harassment?

So far none of us knows the answer to this. Franken himself seems to think that it does rise to that threshold in his apology. He has done the right thing by asking for an inquiry and making a very sincere and thoughtful apology.

The right thing for US to do would be to follow this up as he has requested and determine exactly what happened and how we should respond.

Personally, I think we would be the definition of hypocrisy if we dismiss it without learning exactly what went down.

[ProfessorGAC]

7. Its Exactly The Point

While we don't know every detail, its starting to look pretty clear this was a bit.
A bit is a million light years from a 32 year old professional making a 14 year old touch his dick

[Squinch]

12. "Starting to look like." Hopefully it turns out to be that. We don't know yet if it is. Before

we dismiss her, let's find out. Otherwise we are the rankest type of hypocrites.

And, again, no one is saying it's the same as Moore. And no, whether it's the same as Moore is NOT the point.

[csziggy]

19. Sen. Franken is setting the bar high for himself

Which we know is a good thing though no Republican will ever attempt to live up to that standard or hold any of their colleagues to the same standard as they would a Democrat.

While I am disappointed in Sen. Franken, I understand that any step over the line he made was in the spirit of a comedy sketch and not an invasion of a woman's space just to exert power over her.

The Senate Ethics Committee should do as Sen. Franken asks - fully investigate the charges. If it is done correctly this will shine more light on the abuse of women even when it is not intended that way.

[Squinch]

29. Exactly. He will hopefully become a loud voice saying, "Obviously I get how you

might think in the moment that this is OK, but it's not OK." He'd be able to communicate that better than almost anyone.

I'm hoping he weathers this, and I hope there is proof that the photo was staged with the woman's consent. Even so, it's creepy and not funny, but from his statements he clearly understands what was wrong with it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

58. Well said.

[TheFrenchRazor]

139. correct; i think some people are being willfully ignorant about this. nt

[bathroommonkey76]

3. The only thing in their mouths are Republican talking points. n/t

[pat_k]

4. I don't know about RW "hit job," but...

... any attempts to draw a parallel between a disgusting demonstration of misogynistic attitudes that pervade our culture, and the criminally abusive conduct that ended the careers of people like Robert Packwood or Brock Adams, are absurd.

And so are the calls for him to resign.

As I said in another post:

I'm disgusted with Franken, as he obviously is with himself. The photo puts a black spot on his image that can't be erased. He did all he could -- expressed his disgust and his recognition of how destructive such conduct is. All he can do now is continue to live his life, serve with integrity, and demonstrate by his actions the extent to which he is reformed.

Given how deeply ingrained racism and misogyny are in our culture, sometimes I think that there are only three groups:
(1) Victims of racism/misogyny,
(2) Unapologetic racists/misogynists, and
(3) People who are struggling to confront their failings, and doing battle with racist and misogynistic attitudes, thinking, and conduct.

If anyone in group 3, who was once in group 2, were barred from serving in Congress, I think there would be an awful lot of empty seats in the House and Senate.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. You're Not Sure About A RW Hit Job?

Give me one logical explanation as to why this comes up now?
It's to reinforce the RW point as to why the Moore women are not to be believed
They waited too long or something
But, its still apples and oranges

[pat_k]

15. Timing...

... may have been orchestrated, but to me, "hit job" implies "no basis."

The photo is a demonstration of inexcusable conduct. It happened. The timing of shining a light may be questionable, but the event occurred. The photo was taken. I agree with Al:

There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny... It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it — women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

[Stonepounder]

25. And his accuser has accepted his apology, n/t

[pat_k]

37. A point that too few reports are making.

[Squinch]

38. She did?? I hadn't heard that. That changes everything, in my mind. To me that

makes this a done deal and let's move on.

[Takket]

17. why do you think Moore's accusers spoke up now? Or Weinstein? Or Louis CK?

A cultural shift in how society views harassment is the answer. Women are becoming less afraid every day. good for them.

[pat_k]

23. Hear, Hear!

[Baitball Blogger]

6. Agree with the Prof.

Guys, what Franken did is worthy of an apology, but this is not in the same league as what we have with Roy Moore. We need to find a litmus test that is fair to everyone.

[Kirk Lover]

36. And it sure as fuck pales in comparison to what this dotard has done.

[Jim Beard]

96. You can say that again.......................

I want to see her Playboy portfolio

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/index/_/id/7220857

[Kirk Lover]

104. sure just google search her name and nude photos and switch to images and there ya go.

[SaschaHM]

8. And if his voters accept that, he should definitely stay.

If it becomes clear later next year that this accusation has done the damage that some here think it was intended to do, he needs to go. If he can't win reelection, then there is no purpose of him staying to lose a seat.

He's not going to jail over this accusation. At worst, he's going to get an awful write up from a clearly partisan senate committee. The point is to make him and democrats by association toxic to swing voters and women.

Anyone calling for him to resign or stay needs to wait until we actually see how this is playing with the people that may or may not mark his name on the ballot. Guilt/Innocence is not a determination of whether voters will reelect you as has been shown by the innocent politicians that have been rejected and the guilty ones that haven't.

If he's polling in the low 40s next year for reelection, are folks on DU really going to be championing for him to stay in the race and lose if control of the senate and the ability to stop Trump from restructuring the judiciary is on the line?

[ProfessorGAC]

11. Wait?

There's nothing to wait for!
This is the reciprocal smear the R's claim the Moore "diddling little girls" is!
This isn't close to the same thing!!!

[SaschaHM]

14. And Moore is on the verge of losing a seat in AL because of it.

Hence, why the Republicans, who can give a damn about whether it's true or not, are trying to toss him overboard.

The accusations differ by scale and legality immensely.

However, if this is a smear against Franken, the ultimate goal is to take his Senate seat. And if he is polling in the 40s, then it's working and we have to minimize the damage. The Republicans could care less if he resigned. He's going to get replaced with a Dem anyway. The best thing for them is for this crater a reelection bid and open the way for a Republican challenger.

So yes, we do have to wait until the investigation plays out and the voters of MN make clear their intentions on this.

[Squinch]

40. His accuser publicly accepted his apology. To me, that's the end of it.

[SaschaHM]

45. And I hope that sways his voters if he decides to run for reelection. I don't want to see his seat

lost.

[Squinch]

49. My gut feeling is that this will make him a very vocal proponent for women's issues.

That might work in his favor.

[ancianita]

50. Minnesotans know Al. They're never going to unseat him. Ever. Not even with a Koch operative funding

his opponent's attack ads. It won't happen.

[dragonlady]

106. Al Franken is not up for reelection next year

He was last elected in 2014 and his next election is in 2020.

[kentuck]

13. If there are other examples, especially since he became a Senator.

Then the Ethics Committee might expel him from the body?

If this is the only incident and he had apologized to the victim and the victim accepted his apology, then the Ethics Committee might determine that everyone deserves a second chance, if they are not a professional pedophile?

We don't know if alcohol was involved? That can never be an excuse but it could be an explanation.

[Cattledog]

42. No one has been expelled from the Senate since 1862

And that was for supporting the Confederate rebellion.

[Honeycombe8]

18. Resign? Are you kidding me? It was a joke, people.

I would not have been offended at all. Comedians are given a wide berth..they push the envelope. Sometimes they push too far.

This is a deal where entertainers who travel together frequently punk each other, when they're asleep. Geez, Louise.

This was not molestation, abuse of a powerful position, rape, groping, trying to have sex with a woman without consent, fooling with a minor. This is a total non-issue, as far as I'm concerned. I would think that, no matter who the man was, in the same circumstances (a group of entertainers and comedians who know each other, traveling together).

[fallout87]

78. Since when is sexual assault a joke?

sexually touching a sleeping person (non consent) is sexual assault.

[Cattledog]

82. How do you know he touched her?

His hands are obviously not touching her in the pic. What's your proof that he touched her? USO shows are like a frat party. Bad behavior yes. Sexual assault no.

[fallout87]

83. The photo is snapshot of a moment in time.

Were you in the room? She says she was touched. Are we calling the victim a liar?

[Cattledog]

87. She said she was asleep. She is assuming she was touched from the pic. Don't make stuff up.

"The tour wrapped and on Christmas Eve we began the 36-hour trip home to L.A. After 2 weeks of grueling travel and performing I was exhausted. When our C-17 cargo plane took off from Afghanistan I immediately fell asleep, even though I was still wearing my flak vest and Kevlar helmet.

It wasn’t until I was back in the US and looking through the CD of photos we were given by the photographer that I saw this one:"

http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/

[Honeycombe8]

125. Mr. Fallout87 has 196 posts.

Don't get into a discussion with people who aren't having a real discussion. Don't play into that.

[.99center]

140. Just alert on people spreading RW lies.

Fallout knows Al didn't touch her in the photo, yet continues on spreading that RW smear. Maybe it's time for DU make some changes in the way it moderates? Somethings definitely wrong when DU has more RW trolls than twitter...

[Honeycombe8]

143. There's not a category for this.

There's no category for "probably a troll." Only for "spouting RW dogma" or something. I didn't think this would qualify.

[Honeycombe8]

124. Mr. Fallout87 with 196 posts thinks Franken committed sexual assault.

Interesting, don't you think?

[Cattledog]

126. Very interesting yes.

[TheFrenchRazor]

138. well, then i guess it's all good, since it was "a joke." NOT. nt

[smirkymonkey]

20. Agree completely!

And I STILL want to know why Trump, who has admitted to and has been accused of sexual assault by a number of women, seems to be getting a pass here. There is a disgusting double standard here and this situation doesn't even come close to the numerous offenses committed by republican politicians.

And there is one other difference. Al Franken does not have a history of misogyny, whereas almost every republican in congress has a well documented history of it.

[ellie]

22. No way in hell

should Franken resign.

[4now]

26. At least we know who is working with the Russian bots now.

[Kirk Lover]

27. In no way does this warrant his resignation. I'm seeing that shit on twitter from resistance

members and I had to go in on that bullshit.

[rockfordfile]

28. The Republican Moore should be prosecuted if the things I'm hearing are true.

[SJMULE]

30. Sure Leann Tweeden is so upset

Leann Tweeden, sex symbol, nearly naked model ( FOX NEWS regular?) who loves Chris Christie and his ballsy take no prisoners attitude is butthurt over a Comedic bit? This is the GOP long game to wound Al Franken going forward

[Squinch]

34. Whether she is a sex symbol or a "nearly naked model" has no place in this discussion.

Get a clue.

[Jim Beard]

103. I have to agree with Squinch. She did a Playboy portfolio and had a boob job to market herself

as a sex symbol. Yes, it should't make a difference BUT IT DOES. You can 100% change nature.

https://www.google.com/search?q=leeann+tweeden+republican&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN04G5xMTXAhVrjlQKHSoSCy4Q_AUICigB&biw=1344&bih=690#imgdii=lJxkZz36t1J7UM:&imgrc=GjrCbAbUK2z07M:

[Cattledog]

44. Exactly, they know he is a contender for 2020

Look what they did to Hillary. The slow burn of innuendo, smears etc.

[Owl]

66. Exactly

[LakeArenal]

31. Ditto Ellie

In no way should Franken resign.

[Hortensis]

33. Resign crowd: GOP, Russia, anti-Democrat left.

Two big foes.

Plus the left's version of the alt right, both eternal losers who've never had their own party imagining their day has come. Their conceit is imagining anyone would notice them without the huge boost they're getting from piggybacking on the attacks from the GOP and the Kremlin.

[BannonsLiver]

53. Right

I look for people pushing sanctimony. There’s a thread right now calling people who dared to raise questions about the timing or veracity of her claims ignorant. Tells me all I need to know about who that poster is.

[SJMULE]

62. Leann Tweeden

is a "FOX NEWS INSIDER" is that enough for you given the climate we are currently in? Who on the right wouldnt know that Franken might be easy to target? All of his ribald comedy bits, SNL,NYC in the 70's and 80'sand the drugs that were rampant on the sets in NY and Hollywood movies.... GTFOH with that bull....

[BannonsLiver]

109. You must be confused

I’ve been calling out this Trumpkin, Hannity ass sniffing birther dingbat from dawn to fucking dust today. Do a search of my posts if you need to verify. Otherwise tell your story walking.

[Big_K]

136. Franken knows about his comedy background...

... because he said in a video that he would never run for president because there is so much out there from his earlier years/career that would be used against him.

Video was David Letterman visiting Franken's office in D.C., talking about climate change -- on Funny Or Die.

[Hortensis]

64. For sure. All of us are progressive, but the difference between

Last edited Thu Nov 16, 2017, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

broad-minded, accepting people who truly want to further wellbeing for everyone and those whose biggest passions are wired to making trouble and defeating Democrats is enormous. DFA cared less than nothing about the wishes or wellbeing of Virginia's Hispanics, even as it used them as an excuse for their despicable rule-or-ruin maneuvers. Thank goodness they failed.

Wish I could remember in what book I read John Adam's aggravation about his day's version of this type. Oh, well. When our founders didn't allow them to "take back" the revolution , thank goodness they didn't have a chance to turn the nation over to England in spite.

Just occurred to me to wonder if Benedict Arnold could have conceivably been radical by personality, but apparently he wasn't. He actually ran afoul of a major troublemaker of a radical, famous in that era, Joseph Reed, who himself had seriously planned to defect to the British and may possibly have entered into a treasonous conspiracy to take down Congress. Shades of those at very least playing footsie with the GOP and Kremlin these days. But it was his uberpassionate persecution of Arnold, and to a lesser degree attacking others who were part of the power group his radical antagonisms had gotten himself excluded from, that were a large cause of Arnold's alienation.

Thank goodness, indeed.

[SJMULE]

39. to all of you

I stand by my statement so go find a clue with someone else. Liberal snowflakes vs Liberal realists. Hannity and Stone and the right wing put her up to this. Open your eyes even Randi Rhodes agrees with me.

[Tavarious Jackson]

41. I'm not calling for him to resign.

I am not a Christian but I believe in forgiveness when people confess and apologize, which he has done. I say, make him give a donation to a women's cause and some sort of senate probation.

[Dream Girl]

43. Many many troll bots.

They are becoming more obvious to me.

[C Moon]

47. +1000

[HipChick]

48. Out in force today...

[uponit7771]

89. +1

[KelleyKramer]

108. That's the only reason I clicked this thread

Very revealing indeed

[mvd]

46. He apologized and is fully cooperative

And he's ok with an ethics investigation. I think maybe just censure and move on. It was wrong, but it wasn't comparable to what Moore and others did.

[rzemanfl]

55. He was not a candidate and was not running for public office. n/t

[mvd]

56. So can censure only be used for actions while in office?

If so, thanks, because I learned something. I heard the woman accepted his apology. May just be a nothing after all, which would be a relief. I like Franken.

[rzemanfl]

57. This may set a precedent for Moore, should he win. n/t

[Terry_M]

51. I believe this is called whataboutism

Which John Oliver recently talked about.

a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwis78-zq8TXAhVlyoMKHZx5CKEQFggvMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWhataboutism&usg=AOvVaw2xX8YgkauKtaYXpKj71Vj4

Is what Al Franken did wrong?
Do you want people who mistreat women the way he did to sit in the Senate?

Please answer without bringing Trump or Moore or Clinton into it.

[MFM008]

54. So the first place she goes

Is FOX NEWS. She's full of crap and this IS a hit job.
So bots and repukes puss off.

[PatrickforO]

59. Indeed.

Franken himself has apologized and called for an independent investigation, which suggests to me that there's more to the allegation than meets the eye.

Seems a bit Rovian to me.

[kacekwl]

60. Senator Franken' s only mistake was he didn't

use a Tic-tac. Apparently that makes it ok.

[Blue_Tires]

67. +1

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[iluvtennis]

68. Very well said...thank you!

[bagelsforbreakfast]

76. "Russian Bots all over Al Franken story." Comrades, well done.

Now time to Party!

[dhol82]

102. Bullshit!

Get a grip!
He has asked for a senate investigation.

[JHB]

118. We've already been accused of hypocrisy. For decades. Usually by bigger ones.

Throwing stuff in our faces again and again is what they do.

[FailureToCommunicate]

119. Ha! You have got to be kidding right?

Where is the sarcasm smilie?

Frankin COULD resign...right after Trump, Moore, and anyone else in Washington who is an actual, you know, sexual predator that has gotten away with it.

Totally different, and totally distracting.

Somewhere in Moscow Putin is smirking.

[BlueMTexpat]

129. Hmmm!

To the Iggy List with you!

[scipan]

135. And what party would that be?

[Raster]

79. Put EVERYONE under oath...

...the looming threats of perjury and prison do amazing things for faulty memories.

Senator Franken, whom has delivered an honest, eloquent apology like a good, decent man should, has commented that he remembers the incident differently. Let him tell his version of the story, under oath of course. And then let's have the "victim" tell her version of the story, under oath of course.

INVESTIGATE NOW: Let's see how the photographer remembers the "incident." Let's see if there was anyone else present, and if so, how do they remember the incident?

Oh yes, full-on Congressional investigation!

Perjury and prison all the way around!

[SunSeeker]

80. K & R

[kimbutgar]

84. The photographer said this was a staged photo and she was not asleep.

No wonder she accepted his apology and said let’s move on.

This is a bs faux outrage.

[uponit7771]

90. This should be its own OP, the photographer tweeted this but I can't find it.

[yurbud]

94. that is pretty persuasive to me.

[sl8]

97. Where did you see that the photographer commented on the photo?

Could you post a link?

Thanks.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

112. Be warned - there is a fake FB meme floating around, purported to be from the photographer

where "he" supposedly debunks the photos and says she was awake. The meme itself is a hoax.

[Demsrule86]

85. Hannity is involved.

[R B Garr]

86. Being busy has sure helped put this in perspective. Having ONLY the picture to

judge at a quick glance, she is wearing a military flak jacket for a comedy skit and comedy was performed (bad taste, for sure). But unless she is actually in the military and was at work, she cannot claim she was harassed if that was part of the skit. How absurd. Now, if she was put off by other things while interacting about the skit, that's a personal gripe, for sure. Not anywhere near the same level as a grown ass man trying to intimidate young girls because their parents aren't around.

[peggysue2]

92. There's no comparison, true

The false equivalency crowd is wrong as they always are. What Franken did was inappropriate by today's standards and for most women, it's always been inappropriate--the frat boy syndrome where women are fair game for belittlement, sexual humor and debasement.

But in no way does this act compare to Roy Moore exploiting a 14-year old child or sexually harassing teenagers, using his adult age and position in local law enforcement to force his unsolicited sexual attentions on high school girls. That's an abuse of power as well as sexual abuse.

What Franken did was wrong and should earn him a slap upside the head, something he's willing to admit he deserves. Good one on him! What Roy Moore did deserves legal intervention--I believe child molestation is a crime even in the State of Alabama. Though the statute of limitations has no doubt expired in the Moore case (s), the stigma of abuse and stench of pedophila will rightly haunt the Moore accusations.

For those Dems calling for resignation? Wake the fuck up. Not all things are equal and sometimes taking the easy path is the worst path of all. Franken was man enough to stand up, admit his responsibility for acting like a damn frat boy and apologize. He's even invited an ethics investigation.

It's time for his Democratic colleagues to grow a spine and stop looking for the quick, easy exits.

[FBaggins]

117. So you're saying that Moore's behavior is just BARELY over the line"

Or is it possible for behavior to be completely unacceptable and worthy of derision and yet not rise to the live of what Moore did?

[unhip white guy]

95. Can you Imagine if Franken was (R) ???

"These are accusations from decades ago!"
"The accuser is {insert pejorative here}!"

And, of course, the GOP classic: "Needs more study!"

[DinahMoeHum]

100. Big fat hairy difference between a comedy gig gone raunchy. . .

. . .and statutory rape.

[Sugarcoated]

107. Sen Franken should publically volunteer to resign

if the Nazi in Chief resigns

[oberliner]

115. The woman claims Franken forcefully kissed her without her consent

On the day of the show Franken and I were alone backstage going over our lines one last time. He said to me, “We need to rehearse the kiss.” I laughed and ignored him. Then he said it again. I said something like, ‘Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss.’

He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable.

He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.

[ProfessorGAC]

121. For A Comedy Bit

Convenient that you left that out.

[oberliner]

122. No, not for a comedy bit

This was during a private "rehearsal" where he, according to this woman, forcibly and unnecessarily kissed her and thrust his tongue into her mouth against her will, and despite her previously stated objections.

That anyone is defending these actions on DU is beyond my understanding.

[ProfessorGAC]

128. No Surprise There

The constant contrarian thing is stale.

[whopis01]

142. How exactly does that make any difference?

Nothing changes whether it was done for a comedy bit or not.

If it was consensual, it was consensual and it it was against her consent, it was wrong. It is as simple as that.

[democrank]

116. Although I am very disappointed in Franken's behavior

I'm glad he gave an apology and offered to cooperate with an investigation. I won't excuse this particular behavior any more than I excused Bill Clinton.

The accuser said Franken rammed his tongue in her mouth in spite of the fact she didn't consent to it. That's no comedy skit.

Would I be disgusted if my son acted like Franken did? YES. Would I make excuses for the perpetrator if this happened to my daughter? No.

[oberliner]

123. Well said

I am shocked that there is any other response from DUers than this one.

[heaven05]

120. I am

ignoring that crowd, most are probably RW trolls anyway...and I agree 100% with your assessment.

[Orsino]

130. You're begging the question of whether ONLY the most severe abuse/assault...

...should warrant resignation or prosecution.

It's not at all clear to me that milder harassment or "momentary" assaults should be let go with something like censure. We should get our stories straight about how much is too much for a Democratic officeholder.

I'm not gonna demand resignation quite yet, but we don't have to take an all-or-nothing approach nor insist on instant resolution.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

131. justicedemocrats petition.

I unsubscribed. They want a movement to replace Franken in the Senate with Keith Ellison.

My concern is has Franken made enemies in the Party. Are they chastising him out of an abundance of caution?

[DownriverDem]

132. What about Trump?

When is he going to resign? No left leaner I know would say Franken should resign. Who are those folks?

[classof56]

134. Absolutely agree!

I would not and will not advocate Franken's resignation. For those left leaners who do, perhaps you should rethink that, given what's at stake for our nation's future. We all need Al's strong support in the Senate. In fact, I'm going to e-mail him right now and urge him to stay the course. As for Trump--I encourage him to resign based on his sexual assault history if nothing else, before he has totally destroyed the republic.

[Nitram]

133. Agree

[tiptonic]

137. Sounds like

Sounds like, another putin/trump attempt to distract from the Russian scandal, to me. I wonder how many Rubles changed hands. Bet she gets a job on faux/fox news out of this one.

[ProfessorGAC]

141. Grossly Disappointed!

Thanks for the support from the VAST majority, but to the contrarians ( and you know who you are, and it's getting old) get over your purity nonsense!!!!!!!!
Science is about comparative analysis! I'm a scientist and have been for 42 years
There is NO comparison here!
You think there is? I question why you're on DU! If you're who I'm talking about, you already know!
I'm not hiding my opinions! Unlike......