That Ms. Tweedy's photo does NOT show actual physical contact has now been accepted by

[Atticus]

most of those initially claiming it as "proof" of groping. So, now, some are arguing "Yeah, but WHO KNOWS where his hands were just before or just after that photo!". These intellects include that paragon of virtue, chastity and marital fidelity, Donald Trump in his recent tweets.

These "who knows?" type comments are almost too stupid to be worthy of a response, but, hey, we're no longer living in a rational country. Trump has sold ridiculous lies as fact so often that the market now discounts both.

The CNN "This is an apple" commercial would be silly---if it wasn't so necessary.

[rzemanfl]

1. Fuck. This. Shit. n/t

[lame54]

2. It's CNN that keeps calling the photo a banana

[Sneederbunk]

3. It's a flak jacket you fools.

[oberliner]

4. She has also accused him of forcibly kissing her against her will

Which is the far more disturbing allegation.

[Demsrule86]

7. Really? Having looked into who she is...rightie...and how Hannity and Stone knew in advance...

bullshit. And those there dispute the kiss...and have defended Franken...the GOP is going to get caught on this one.

[oberliner]

9. I believe women who come forward about claims of sexual assault

Regardless of their politics.

[msongs]

14. many women are serial liars. any claim should be investigated on its own merit nt

[oberliner]

26. Many women are serial liars?

That's the position you are taking here?

[ismnotwasm]

30. Jesus Christ thats disturbing

[mythology]

47. And many men are serial sexual abusers

Yes every claim should be considered on the merits. But one of us is starting from the same intellectual place that rape deniers start from.

[Fla_Democrat]

55. interesting.....

Think I'll sit back for a bit to see how this works out.

[Gravitycollapse]

59. Holy shit, this is offensive.

[brewens]

28. It's not always true. I had a nutjob neighbor woman get caught claiming sexual assault. She

broke a window getting in when she had locked her keys inside her apartment. That was all it was that started it. So she did what anyone would do, claim is was a forced entry, they guy raped her, and gave a phony description to the cops.

She also told them I had a party that night, which was a poker game with a bunch of my buddies. It had broken up and everyone was gone and I was in bed, thank god! I wake up somehow, even after pounding down a lot of beers, probably because I had several cops swarming all around surrounding the place! Then loud pounding on the door! It's the police and they need to talk to me.

Fortunately I could see there was no evidence of weed smoking still out on the table. Chips and everything else was though. I figured they could probably see me through some kind of crack somewhere. I opened the door and they questioned me, looking me over and asking if anyone there met a description that fortunately I did not. Heavy set, beard and sun burned. They believed me evidently and moved on.

They got wind of another guy that did meet the description though, it turned out a friend of mine as well. He was living in his RV at his dad's a block or so away, having just gotten divorced. He got rousted out of bed, having spent his day drinking beer upriver. He spent a couple hours at the police station being grilled over that psycho's story! The last dude that would ever do something like that even if he could. Miserably out of shape, really cared about nothing but drinking beer. He wouldn't have touched her if she had thrown herself at him. Not a chance. She admitted making it all up. She had problems, was actually a legally blind albino as well.

[neohippie]

29. I think your going to far

I think their claims deserve to be investigated, but you can't always believe them, remember the Duke Lacross scandal?

While I would advocate that their claims deserve to be listened to and given a chance to be validated, you shouldn't believe every thing that you hear from everyone all the time.

You should listen to what they have to say and then see what others have to say. How can you simply believe anything that anyone has to say, all the time?

I realize that this is a very sensitive topic and a time where women are being encouraged to speak out through campaigns like #metoo

That doesn't mean we should believe everything, but it also means that we shouldn't automatically doubt anyone. Whatever happened to reserving judgment instead of rushing to it?

If we just simply believe every allegation that's been made about anyone, where does that leave us when they turn out to be unfounded?

[treestar]

48. You should not automatically believe or disbelieve

anyone. Each witness should be viewed on their own merits.

That's allowing a mere accusation to prove guilt.

[PatSeg]

50. Most women who come forward

about sexual assault are telling the truth, but unfortunately there is a very small percentage of people, men and women, who do lie and accuse or exaggerate about relationships and encounters. Some even ruin other people's lives. This is something we need to keep in mind when serious accusations are made.

[panader0]

62. On the one hand you have Leeann

On the other you have Sen. Franken.
You automatically believe her claim that he "groped" her, though
the photo shows no touching. He is mugging for the camera, not what
"gropers" usually do. Roger Stone and InfoWars knew about this in
advance. But you believe Leeann. You are a smart person oberliner,
but I notice you always take a contrary stance.
I don't believe she acted alone in this "release" of "groping".
Al has called for an investigation, she has said that is not necessary.

[Demsrule86]

67. I don't. And I am a woman...and I have been assaulted in fact.

Some women lie...and when you have a righty plant with GOP operatives knowing about this in advance...it seems pretty clear that she is lying and it infuriates me because women like that make it bad for the rest of us.

[pnwmom]

78. Crystal Mangum and other women have been proven wrong. It is possible for women to lie,

though in the case of rape it is very unusual.

[Cosmocat]

34. Seriously, if Sarah Silverman claimed that Marco Rubio

forcibly kissed him, how would that be treated?

[Demsrule86]

66. It depends on the circumstances, but I can promise you that the GOP would treat it as a lie

regardless and there was no forcible kiss either...she is a right wing plant and a pretty bad liar too.

[NewJeffCT]

11. agree that the kissing against her will is more serious

a comedy skit where a person pretends to grope another is a lot different than forcibly kissing a person against their will.

[oberliner]

27. The photo of the groping is not part of "a comedy skit"

Not sure where you got that idea from.

[questionseverything]

82. the photo was part of a cd that was given out to every1 on the tour

obviously supposed to be humorous

[oberliner]

87. Exactly

It was not part of any skit, it was part of humiliating a woman for a cheap laugh (that being the most charitable explanation).

[Gore1FL]

19. I would agree, but the kiss was part of the script for the skit she agreed to take part in.

That would be a little like Dakota Johnson accusing Jamie Dornan of unwanted advances while filming 50 shades of Grey.

[oberliner]

24. She said she did not want to kiss him in the skit (and didn't)

And she said she did not want to kiss him in the rehearsal, but he forced himself on her.

[Gore1FL]

40. Actors rehearse.

Doing kissing scenes cold without practicing makes for an awkward performance.

[oberliner]

68. Actors don't stick their tongues down people's throats in a rehearsal for a USO comedy skit

There is no scenario where a skit rehearsal would require that to occur (nor is there a scenario where this would need to be included in the skit itself).

[Gore1FL]

71. I'll take your word for it over my decades of experience as an actor and playwright. nt

[pnwmom]

80. She didn't tell HIM that she didn't want to kiss him. Telling US, after the fact, is not the same.nt

[oberliner]

88. Yes, she did

According to the interview, she told that to him repeatedly and he kept badgering and coercing her.

[pnwmom]

89. She didn't say that in the written statement. Please post the link where you heard her say that. n/t

[Larrybanal]

21. against her will

but it was part of a scripted skit...the details of the kiss I think are questionable. franken wants an investigation...she doesn't...why?
lets investigate before we hang him. no matter what dems want to do with franken, roy moore will still stay in the election and the groper in chief will still be pretending to be president so who really loses?

[oberliner]

23. Al Franken wrote the script for the skit

The woman claims she did not want to kiss him in the skit, nor in the rehearsal for the skit, but that he insisted and forced her to do so during the rehearsal.

[Nevernose]

54. And apparently it was a good thing the writer wrote that

Because they left it in and kept performing it. Repeatedly. Apparently it was funny. It’s a good thing they rehearsed it, too, because when it didn’t work out in rehearsal — which is the entire point of a rehearsal — they altered it so they wouldn’t have to actually touch lips again. It’s not like she was working as a schoolteacher or even a Playboy model: sometimes singing and dancing and acting and, yes, kissing are part of a stage performer’s job.

Might he have had another motive for including the kissing scene? Might the professional comedy writer of 45 years have known more about comedy writing than she did? Especially since they left it in the act?

[obamanut2012]

33. And his official escort has said that was a lie

That he was there and witnessed it.

[RandomAccess]

56. I'd love to see a valid link for this because I haven't yet

I take it back -- https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029854353

[Denzil_DC]

73. If you can name this "official escort", you have a world scoop.

So far, all there is to back up your assertion is an anonymous Twitter claim.

[Atticus]

38. This is the "far more disturbing" claim since it is the ONLY remaining claim

since her "proof" photo didn't show what she claimed. If she will misrepresent a photo that anyone can check out, are her other assertions not at least suspect?
Your statement in another post that you s!ways believe women who claim sexual abuse is too silly to merit a response.

[pnwmom]

77. Nowhere in her statement does she say that she told him not to kiss her

even though it was part of the written skit.

She was trying to avoid it, and she planned to turn her head away. That's not the same.

[Orsino]

5. Who knows?

We don't. A snapshot is not evidence of harassment/assault. It only puts the accused and the alleged target together at the scene. I think there's more we could learn from anyone else nearby.

I'm trying to check myself on my eagerness to hear that the accusation is groundless or exaggerated. Isn't that rational?

[RandomAccess]

6. It. Doesn't. Matter.

It doesn't matter whether he physically touched her or not, or whether she was wearing a flak jacket if he did, etc., etc, etc.

HE HIMSELF has admitted that what he did was inappopriate and OFFENSIVE. It's a crude "joke" -- which isn't funny OR ACCEPTABLE / DISMISSABLE except to other crude, sexist people.

Look, I'm heartbroken about this. And for a while when I first heard the news I wanted to disbelieve her, shame her, figure out whether or not she was a rightwing plant, but NONE OF THAT works.

Let's PLEASE stop being hypocritical when one of our own shows up to have been a crude brute.

I'm just praying this was the only instance, but TBH, just as we saw with Cosby, Trump, Weinstein, Roy Moore, Kevin Spacey, Louis CK, and basically ALL the others - - - this rarely happens as a one-off.

Some men have got to learn to stop that shit. And others have to learn not to try to defend it esp. by demonizing the accuser or treating the story dismissively.

[Demsrule86]

8. Let me answer this ...NO. We will not throw our own under the bus with no real evidence...and

she is a righty...put up to this by Hannity. Have a nice day.

[mikeysnot]

22. Beat me to it..

She was terrible reading of Roger Stones script last night.

Bad attempt at a hit job....

Franken handled it with class.

[RandomAccess]

60. Franken absolutely handled with with great class

and aplomb. He in fact has created a template for all future accuseds.

But I've seen no credible indication her allegations aren't true -- if you have some, by all means share.


Edited to add -- I've now seen something throwing doubt on her story: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029854353

[mikeysnot]

70. thats how wrong wingers work

wrap a big lie around a little bit of truth, point to the truth to substantiate the lie....

[Demsrule86]

64. She is a liar and you have to want to believe her to find her bullshit credible.

[RandomAccess]

57. Who wants to throw him under any bus?

HE has asked for an Ethics investigation AND admitted the "joke" wasn't, and that it was offensive.

It doesn't matter what her politics are -- and I've seen no credible indications her story is made up or trumped up or anything else. You simply can't -- well you can, but it would be wrong -- dismiss her claims just because you don't like her politics.

Edited to add: I just saw this -- it's not ALL the proof I'd want, but it does throw some justifiable doubt on her claims: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029854353

[Demsrule86]

63. It does matter what her politics are as she is a righty plant...the GOP throws shit our way and then

happily waits for us to pile on...and foolish progressives do...not me...Stone knew in advance as did Hannity and another Righty operative...it was a set up... There is a new picture on another thread...clearly she is lying...and let me tell you, I was cornered in an elevator while one of my bosses put his hands down my pants and asked me how I like my job...now that is sexual harassment...she took the job knowing a kiss would be involved too;she is an actress...and having looked at pictures, she is clearly lying. And she makes it bad for all women too by her lies because the next woman won't be believed ...who is telling the truth.

[Larrybanal]

25. bullshit

this is not serial rape or molestation ...it was clearly a misdirected joke and he was mugging for a camera. zero groping was involved.
plus in this instance I question her motives based on her politics and the fact she does not want an investigation. additionally, there re a couple witnesses to the photo that say it was set up and she was involved. lets wait for facts. one thing for sure no matter what happens to franken...trump and moore aint going anywhere

[RandomAccess]

61. By all means wait for facts

Franken himself has asked for an Ethics investigation, to his enormous credit.

But stop treating her allegations dismissively because her politics are different from yours in the meantime without ANY reason whatsoever.

I've seen NO CREDIBLE information from any "witnesses" but would love to -- hand it over if you've got it. All I've seen is DUers posting tweets that are completely unsubstantiated. Well, one tweet.

[kcr]

53. But it does matter.

If someone misrepresents a picture and claims it's something else, that's lying. Even if the truth isn't good. If she took part in an inappropriate joke, she doesn't get to turn around and claim it was harassment because hey! This comedian I was on a USO tour with is a Senator now, and here's this pic of us goofing around. That sure looks like harassment. I could claim it was and help take him down!

The fact she buddies with the right wing smear machine IS relevant. The timing of this is too damn coincidental. There are too many coincidences. I have no idea why so few want to acknowledge this. They are exploiting #Meetoo. They are shameless.

[Madam45for2923]

65. What's weird to me is Hannity saying he saw the photo years ago but kept mum all these years.

Yeah, right!

[MFM008]

10. thats ok

we have the sacred golden word of the maggot in chief that it was "BAD",
the pussy grabbing, aggressive, bullying rapist of a 13 year old golden shower
moral leader of the GOP...................

[Wellstone ruled]

12. Best guess,

she will be unemployed by Xmas. LA is one mean Market.

[Boomerproud]

13. She'll be well compensated by the RW media machine

Whether she or Al Franken is telling the whole truth.

[louis-t]

15. They always are.

Paula Jones got a new wardrobe and jewelry.

[videohead5]

31. And

A nose job.

[louis-t]

46. That's riiiight. Forgot about that.

[jrthin]

52. I was just about to add this. Thank you.

[Judi Lynn]

79. Amazing difference from the time she entered the game, and after playing her part.

[oasis]

16. Track records and reputation matter. Al Franken has my vote of confidence.

We all know Republicans lie, bigly.

[George II]

17. "Yeah, but WHO KNOWS where his hands were just before or just after that photo!"

Isn't that what trump tweeted yesterday?

[Honeycombe8]

18. No, the photo does not show any groping. In act, the woman herself cannot attest to groping...

she was asleep, and was just going by the photo, which she mistakenly thought showed groping.

No grope.

[videohead5]

32. I want to

Hear from other people that was in the room.it's been reported the photographer said she was in on it and was not asleep and it was staged.

[obamanut2012]

36. Yup, and his official military escort stated her version of the rehearsal

Is a lie.

[videohead5]

39. Why aren't?

These people being interviewed on CNN or MSNBC?

[ananda]

35. I believe this was an orchestrated hatchet job.

It's a distraction, and it appears to be working.

By the standards set up for Franken, 45 himself
should be in jail.

[Pinna]

37. Simple Test

Here is a simple test of the "joke/flak jacket so its ok" defense theory:

Enter a military base and approach any female soldier wearing a flak jacket.

Attempt to "hover" your fingers 1/2" above her breasts.

Be sure to record your results so you can show the hilarity that is generated.

During the ensuing inquiry/hearing, be sure to use the "it was just a joke, besides, she was wearing a flak jacket" defense.

[Atticus]

44. Just a couple observations about your test:

1.) No one, not even Senator Franken, claims this was "OK".
2.) Ms. Tweeden was not a "female soldier".
3.) "1/2 inch" is your characterization and serves your agenda better than what most see.

Lame.

[Pinna]

45. Fair point on the "ok"

Moments after I posted this, I had second thoughts about using ok, so I retract that part, my apologies.

If you object to a 1/2", let's just make that in "close proximity".

Ok, lets take out soldier, and insert "civilian". I used soldier only due to the fact that it would be easier to find a soldier in a flak jacket compared to a civilian, but if that is more acceptable to you, so be it. I am reasonably sure the result will be the same.

[Atticus]

49. Do you think a plane containing comedians and other entertainers in a combat zone

has the same atmosphere and rule structure as a military base in peace time? Would you expect the same level of seriousness and responsibility in both situations?
Still don't see the relevance of your "test".

[Lee-Lee]

72. So its acceptble to you...

To engage in a mock sexual assault (because that’s what he was pretending to do) on a woman who is asleep and not consenting it its a bunch of comedians doing it, but not ok in other situations?

How about this- just like grabbing a woman’s breasts without consent is never ok, mocking like you are are making a joke of pretend sexual assault on a woman as she sleeps is never ok.

Not if they are Soldiers. Not if they are minim wake workers doing fast food. Not if they are CEO’s. And not even if they are comedians.

It’s not ok. Period. You don’t get a pass or partial pass because you are a comedian.

Your post is a great example of the situational ethics used to justify misogyny and rape culture because of the “boys will be boys” attitude.

[Atticus]

74. Sorry, you don't get to pronounce what I find "acceptable", especially when

nothing I posted supports or justifies your drive-by.

Some may have noticed that you didn't even attempt to answer the questions I posed. I guess that sort of answers them, doesn't it?

Your last sentence is little more than a collection of buzz words and phrases with no basis in fact and serves little purpose except as a emotional wedge to divide the "good" people from the "bad". Some call that aiding and abetting.

[pnwmom]

81. No one's saying that sexual assault should be a laughing matter, or that Franken shouldn't have

apologized.

But the photo doesn't show Franken actually touching her, so claims that it does are untrue.

[jalan48]

41. Franken is leading the charge against Sessions for lying about his contacts with the Russians.

This accusation undercuts his position by throwing into doubt his moral character.

[whathehell]

42. It's strange, as in one photo, I see space between his hands and in

the other that I see on TV, I don't...I thought, at first, that he was, as another here said, just clowning around, "hamming" it up, but on MSNBC they kept accusing him of actual "groping", which the first picture did not indicate.

[Mr. Evil]

43. I posted this comment on another site and it's just my take for what it's worth.

Let's give this some context (based solely on my opinion, so if you think I'm wrong, hammer away on me. I'm a big boy, I can take it). This "kiss" happened during a rehearsal for a skit to be performed for the troops during a USO tour. After Al Franken asked her to rehearse a kiss from the script she said she initially didn't want to but, eventually agreed. Most likely (knowing Al Franken's comedic history and his ability to be a supreme goofball) Al Franken probably decided to give her the most sloppy, crappy, grossest kiss ever hoping to get laughs from Miss Tweeden and from other cast and crew present. At that time, well before deciding to run for the Senate, Al Franken's job was to create humor. Sometimes he failed, most times he didn't. IMHO, he wasn't trying to insinuate himself with her. He was trying to create something funny for the troops. There were always others present and they were never alone together from everything I've read so far.
Next, how did Roger Stone know this was coming down before it actually did? She has appeared with Sean Hannity and is a known Trump supporter (and has to know about the multiple allegations against him). Maybe Al Franken's attempt at humor in the heat of the moment (at that time) was crude and juvenile but, I do not believe for one second that he intended it to evolve into a sexual tryst with Miss Tweeden. This just does not pass the smell test considering the players involved and the timing.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

51. That Ms. "Tweedy's photo does NOT show actual physical contact has now been accepted by"

But are you SURE??? Vladimir Putin's friends on DU want to know!

[ecstatic]

58. There were at least two other men in the room at the time

One was sitting right next to her and the other one took the picture. I know men can be vulgar at times, but would 2 grown men sit idly by while a woman was being molested in her sleep?

[oberliner]

69. "but would 2 grown men sit idly by while a woman was being molested in her sleep"

Do you even have to ask this question?

[Atticus]

75. Obviously, we associate with a different class of men. nt

[oberliner]

76. Huh?

What the hell are you talking about?

Have you ever read any information or data about the sexual abuse and harassment of women?

Do you know how many women and girls have been raped with other men standing by and/or taking part?

Several studies indicate that between 20 and 25 percent of all rapes in the United States are gang rapes.

I guess some people just like to have their head in the sand on this topic for some reason.

[The_Casual_Observer]

84. oh for christ sake, now it's a gang rape?

This is past the point of no return

[oberliner]

85. No, obviously not

I am saying that there is nothing surprising about men sitting idly by while other men sexually harass women. Men sit idly by (or actively participate) when other men do much much worse things to women.

[Atticus]

90. "There's the sign post up ahead---" nt

[oberliner]

91. Men sit idly by while other men do inappropriate things to women

It happens frequently. Perhaps you want to pretend that it doesn't, for some reason, but the sad fact is that it does.

[Homeoutside]

83. WTF?

So...now Mocking is molesting?

[oberliner]

86. The poster above used that terminology

My only point is that men often sit idly by while other men do things to women.