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Robin Williams (married here) was assaulted and grabbed without permission by Leann Tweeden. (Original Post) HAB911 Nov 2017 OP
But it's OK if you're a Republican...and straight men just LOVE being grabbed by women Glorfindel Nov 2017 #1
Unfortunately it's not just Rs defending her. Duppers Nov 2017 #27
Oh, dear. Baitball Blogger Nov 2017 #2
It's about power HopeAgain Nov 2017 #4
Sometimes MFM008 Nov 2017 #29
Using Robin for this is crossing a line. moriah Nov 2017 #3
He is also pretending to zip up his pants. LisaL Nov 2017 #6
Exactly. Seriously, this is getting out of control. moriah Nov 2017 #7
How was he supposed to "sound unwilling" after the fact? Demit Nov 2017 #9
You are just trying to score points here. moriah Nov 2017 #12
I'm just trying to express my skepticism of Ms Tweeden here, is what I'm doing. Demit Nov 2017 #16
I'm saying we don't know. He's, sadly, not here to say. moriah Nov 2017 #17
Oh for heaven's sake. It is still possible to critique a performer's performance after he is dead. Demit Nov 2017 #22
Here's a video of Robin Wiliams USO performance from 2004. Demit Nov 2017 #37
I think that the OP is being ironic to prove a point. yardwork Nov 2017 #13
And many are unintentionally feeding patriarchal stereotypes by doing so. moriah Nov 2017 #14
I agree, and I've said so here on DU. yardwork Nov 2017 #18
Exactly. Not to sound like Moore supporters here at ALL, but... moriah Nov 2017 #20
But many supporting Franken are "being just like him" kcr Nov 2017 #24
No one's accused her of molesting them, either, have they? moriah Nov 2017 #26
Well, she didn't say anything either, for a long time. kcr Nov 2017 #28
We can ask them now, though. We can't ask Robin. moriah Nov 2017 #30
Wow. You know, you'd have a point if it was only Robin Williams. kcr Nov 2017 #32
.... I'm wrong for thinking you should interview the living? moriah Nov 2017 #33
Who says you're wrong? I agree with that. kcr Nov 2017 #35
Why is photo beyond the pale? He's not touching her, photographer is saying staged photo Hestia Nov 2017 #34
Overall your point is quite solid. Orrex Nov 2017 #19
I use it because it's a trope of the various "sleepover pranks". moriah Nov 2017 #21
Sure, like the ol' "hand in the bowl of water" gag. Orrex Nov 2017 #23
It's SP funny, in that it is addressing "conversion therapy" for questioning youth. moriah Nov 2017 #25
God. I hate that I had to hunt through numerous threads of dreck and slut shaming.... vi5 Nov 2017 #38
Well, well, well.... femmocrat Nov 2017 #5
Comparing actions in an act to ones down while one was sleeping Lee-Lee Nov 2017 #8
Please splain Her thrusting her leg over Williams groin, or her grabbing the guitarist ass, were Ninga Nov 2017 #10
Im sorry but who believes she was assaulted while she was sleeping? It was a tacky joke writes3000 Nov 2017 #11
I can believe someone could be exhausted on a flight... moriah Nov 2017 #15
Maybe being older but the Al Franken pic is not tacky or gross. Hestia Nov 2017 #36
Leeann Tweeden's Playboy mag cover Sam McGee Nov 2017 #31

Glorfindel

(9,781 posts)
1. But it's OK if you're a Republican...and straight men just LOVE being grabbed by women
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:32 AM
Nov 2017

And what about Hillary Clinton's email? THAT WOMAN ACTUALLY SENT AND RECEIVED EMAIL!! Why aren't we talking about important things? Benghazi!!!!

Baitball Blogger

(46,971 posts)
2. Oh, dear.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:41 AM
Nov 2017

This does open the door to asking the conflicting question of whether a woman is capable of sending mixed messages when it comes to greeting rituals or displays of affection. I know this has been a slippery slope in the past, but Leann just made it an issue to discuss. I call it the Mistletoe Quandry.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
4. It's about power
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:50 AM
Nov 2017

Is someone using their position and power to touch another person in a way that is likely to be unwelcome by the person touched? This woman's USO performances is relevant to understand what she considered acceptable touching in a performance setting. It does not tell us more or less.

If I hang around with a woman who always touches men in a playful way that includes personal or sexual innuendo, then similar reciprocal touching is fair game. Sexual assault (groping for prurient reasons isn't invited).

It's common sense and any man who checks his motives knows the difference.

MFM008

(19,863 posts)
29. Sometimes
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:00 PM
Nov 2017

Politics can be a motive.
Or MONEY. Or profile.
They will want to keep her front and center
Because these will be the ONLY allegations
Against him.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
3. Using Robin for this is crossing a line.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:49 AM
Nov 2017

He didn't sound unwilling with his "Yes!" after that.. but again, if you're going to judge allegations about backstage shit from performances on stage, you need to remember it's a performance when it's on-stage.

And unfortunately he's not with us to say how he actually felt. Unlike the other comedians present.

So using him as an example is pretty goddamn disingenuous.

LisaL

(45,038 posts)
6. He is also pretending to zip up his pants.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:52 AM
Nov 2017

Pretty sure this was a skit. They seem to be doing these type of hugs with leg raised in several skits. But I don't take the OP literally.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
7. Exactly. Seriously, this is getting out of control.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:57 AM
Nov 2017

Ask LIVING comedians whose asses she smacked during skits if they felt she was sexually assaulting them.

Because while the Williams skits are great and I love seeing them, he can't tell us "Yes, she crossed a line" or "No, you guys must think I really was in Vietnam, too! Geez, folks..."

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
9. How was he supposed to "sound unwilling" after the fact?
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:42 PM
Nov 2017

Oh wait, I know! Reveal the picture 11 years later and say you never gave consent.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
12. You are just trying to score points here.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:51 PM
Nov 2017

There's been enough footage of her many USO shows to ask other, LIVING, men how they felt about her slapping their asses onstage.

Don't presume to say what Robin really was feeling. As I said, he was onstage so the smack and "Yes!" might have been part of the show as well, or an improv smack and inprov response to try to cover any actual feelings of assault.

We don't know, and bringing up the beloved dead to say she assaulted them from a skit video is disrespectful to his memory.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
16. I'm just trying to express my skepticism of Ms Tweeden here, is what I'm doing.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:24 PM
Nov 2017

From the way she threw her leg around Robin Williams I suspect she would not have minded a French kiss from him. HIS lips wouldn't have been wet & slimy to her, I bet.

Btw, you are instructing me not to presume to say what Robin was feeling, then you go ahead and presume to say what Robin was feeling, are you aware of that?

moriah

(8,312 posts)
17. I'm saying we don't know. He's, sadly, not here to say.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:28 PM
Nov 2017

So it's crossing a line when there are plenty of other living men she interacted with to question/call a skit assault without the victim's story.

A line of respect for Robin Williams's memory if nothing else.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
22. Oh for heaven's sake. It is still possible to critique a performer's performance after he is dead.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:46 PM
Nov 2017

You can draw your imaginary line and not cross it, if you like. But when there is video of a performance, commentary on the performance is a perfectly ordinary thing to do. Calling it disrespectful is just—weird.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
37. Here's a video of Robin Wiliams USO performance from 2004.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:51 PM
Nov 2017

You'll note his early joke about Pamela Anderson's titties. You'll want to pay special attention at around the 11 minute mark, the whole bit about titties, where he expresses approval of Lee Ann's beautiful, real titties; mimes grabbing women's breasts; then riffs on how when women say "ow that hurts," men say "yeah."
Later, he riffs on a guy operating a refueling tanker: "Take all of it bitch, you know you want it."

I'm supposed to not criticize that out of "respect" for Robin Williams memory? I mean, come on.

yardwork

(62,076 posts)
13. I think that the OP is being ironic to prove a point.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:52 PM
Nov 2017

I agree with the intent of the OP.

Many of us have been saying that the USO context to Tweeden's accusation matters.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
14. And many are unintentionally feeding patriarchal stereotypes by doing so.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:06 PM
Nov 2017

Does a stripper not have the right to file charges if someone rips her clothes off without her permission, even if she regularly rips outfits on stage that are designed to come off that way?

Is raping a prostitute rape, or is it merely theft, since that woman has chosen before to sell sex?

If you know the answers to the above, you know letting soldiers and people who buy magazines ogle her body and participating in bawdy shows doesn't justify taking a sexualized picture of her while she was asleep and unable to say "Sure, that's hilarious!" or "Fuck you, that's like drawing a dick on a sleeping person's face."

yardwork

(62,076 posts)
18. I agree, and I've said so here on DU.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:31 PM
Nov 2017

Franken's behavior was wrong. He was right to apologize. It was a good apology too.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
20. Exactly. Not to sound like Moore supporters here at ALL, but...
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:37 PM
Nov 2017

... you know the joke about how we wish some Christians would act more like Christ -- that "I don't mind Jesus, it's his fan club that bothers me?" joke?

Franken's behavior by taking the picture was immature and juvenile. I'm not saying people should be immature and juvenile.

But I do wish that some people supporting Franken could be more like him during his apology when they're discussing the issue.

kcr

(15,342 posts)
24. But many supporting Franken are "being just like him"
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:50 PM
Nov 2017

I wish more who wish to instantly string him up could do the same. It's a two-way street. Your points are correct in general, but I believe you're misapplying them to this case. Robin Williams isn't alive but most everyone else who was there still is. The fact that no one else has yet to come forward and back her up is telling.

kcr

(15,342 posts)
28. Well, she didn't say anything either, for a long time.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:00 PM
Nov 2017

Do you think there's anything significant about that? If you don't, then I'm not sure why you think there's anything worth saying about the first point.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
30. We can ask them now, though. We can't ask Robin.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:02 PM
Nov 2017

There's been a lot of crap I've seen here lately, but using the memory of someone beloved who opted out to try to push this narrative is sickening.

kcr

(15,342 posts)
32. Wow. You know, you'd have a point if it was only Robin Williams.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:06 PM
Nov 2017

But it isn't. Look, I know it had to suck when it turned out to be the hit job many were saying it was in the first place, and it sucks to be wrong on the internet. But, come on.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
33. .... I'm wrong for thinking you should interview the living?
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:17 PM
Nov 2017

You think I wanted ANY of this to be true, let alone the part Franken has admitted to (and the only part I personally believe actually happened, AND think that it shows there was no physical contact)?

Jesus H Fucking Christ on a pogo stick.

All right, have at it. Go ahead and keep calling me a RW troll. You win.

You are all officially free to embarrass every person who actually takes liberal values seriously. Keep retweeting 4chan bots as news. Keep feeding into the reactions the people pushing this hit job WANT to see from liberals.

I'm taking a self-enforced break from DU for a week. I don't want my handle in any of the oppo research you know they do to document those reactions and dance around in glee over.

kcr

(15,342 posts)
35. Who says you're wrong? I agree with that.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:28 PM
Nov 2017

So does Al Franken because he wants an investigation.

Where I think you're wrong is it seems you're claiming those who think she has a motive to falsely accuse him are shaming her. Stop with the slut-shaming stuff already. It's ludicrous in this case.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
34. Why is photo beyond the pale? He's not touching her, photographer is saying staged photo
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:24 PM
Nov 2017

other people were in the plane/room/whatever, even his follower is says he is confused about her charges of "inappropriate touching" because she was on board at the time to this picture. Hell, it's even on her phone and she showed it on Sean Hannity's show years ago.

Al Franken is one of the best satirists, and I personally think he is hilarious! Don't like his comedy? Turn the friggin' channel, but do not get rid of this man. GOP is going after him because a lot of people have been mulling him running for president. DH & I have been discussing that for weeks.

Why is it, our side throws someone under the bus at the drop of a hat? "He's creepy," "Picture in poor taste (no it's not)" and on and on. When he was a writer and skit actor on SNL is the absolute best decade of SNL. What's being lauded now doesn't even begin to touch Phil Hartman, Eddy Murphy & Chris Rock, Jan Hooks, Dana Carvey, Chris Farley, Mike Myers, and Nora Dunn, who is absolutely brilliant.

This is where the GOP runs circles around Democrats - they play it to the end, supporting each other. We just kick poo on our side and redefine assault and misconduct.

I told DH that will see women being accused of misconduct and skewered in the media and chairborne brigade.

Orrex

(63,454 posts)
19. Overall your point is quite solid.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:35 PM
Nov 2017

I disagree that the dick-on-the-face is a good analogy for miming a grope in a (possibly) staged picture from more than a decade ago.

In the picture that we've seen, Franken is not making contact with the apparntly sleeping Tweeden. If he'd drawn a dick on her face, then he'd have had to touch her. Physical contact is, to me, is rather significantly different from a gesture that does not involve contact.

As to your other two questions, the answers are exactly what I suspect you know them to be:

1. The stripper has the right to file charges because her profession does not automatically imply consent to have others touch her or tear her clothes off.

2. If the prostitute has not consented to sex, then it is rape.

I am confident that certain high-minded judges and juries would be happy to condemn such women for their life choices and thereby exonerate their attackers, but the fact remains that consent is the beginning and end of the discussion.

It's the same as that dumbass Trump supporter whose t-shirt invited Trump to "grab her" any time. She was explicitly giving her consent in writing, yet she thought that she was mocking the millions upon millions of women who would not consent to be grabbed.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
21. I use it because it's a trope of the various "sleepover pranks".
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:42 PM
Nov 2017

I mean, I guess it was more like Eric Cartman's album of pictures of Butters from "Cartman Sucks".

(Except in that, even though no contact is made, the show implies he wsas drugging Butters to get him asleep enough to take the photos if he didn't go to sleep fast enough.)

And if a person can legitimately sleep through many of those pranks, they could definitely sleep through a sexualized photo being taken without contact being made.

Orrex

(63,454 posts)
23. Sure, like the ol' "hand in the bowl of water" gag.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:48 PM
Nov 2017

Haven't seen the South Park episode, but I get what you mean.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
25. It's SP funny, in that it is addressing "conversion therapy" for questioning youth.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:52 PM
Nov 2017

But if you find South Park funny and realize that nothing Cartman does is *ever* supposed to represent the actions of a sane human being with a conscience....

You might think they did a good job with the show.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
38. God. I hate that I had to hunt through numerous threads of dreck and slut shaming....
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 03:23 PM
Nov 2017

...to find a post like yours. This place has been a cesspool lately and the amount of people who think this is somehow different than the scenarios you are describing are abundant and disgusting.

This place would be shocked and aghast if this was a Republican being accused and his supporters pushing pictures like this all over the internet to prove she "was asking for it."

I've ridden a lot of waves of controversy and disappointment her on DU over the years but I can't quite say that I've seen anything of this level of hypocrisy.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
8. Comparing actions in an act to ones down while one was sleeping
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:02 PM
Nov 2017

Are not the same.

It’s a nice try, but it’s not the same, especially when it’s likely they did that same routine over and over and it was part of the act.

Some people here still don’t understand the simple concept of consent. If everyone is aware of it and consents it’s fine- like performers on a stage.


If one person is asleep, consent isn’t possible.

That is where it differs.

This is the equivalent of saying if someone did a porn film in the past it’s ok to have sex with them if their unconscious because there acted the same way before.

Ninga

(8,303 posts)
10. Please splain Her thrusting her leg over Williams groin, or her grabbing the guitarist ass, were
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:48 PM
Nov 2017

pre-planned, permission slip valid?

A two week USO tour with raunchy, crude jokes and skits is breadng ground for,double entendres that play to the crowd.

Let the hearing commence!

writes3000

(4,734 posts)
11. Im sorry but who believes she was assaulted while she was sleeping? It was a tacky joke
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:49 PM
Nov 2017

But arguing that it was anything beyond that defies reason and logic.

It means you have to believe that he felt up this woman and took a picture in the act while she stayed asleep through the whole thing.

It was a tacky gross joke.

moriah

(8,312 posts)
15. I can believe someone could be exhausted on a flight...
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:22 PM
Nov 2017

... and used to sleeping in such conditions, so wouldn't wake up if someone wasn't actually touching them.

And my amateur examination of the photo seems to suggest they were probably close to her, but using angles to give an appearance of touching. Not actually touching.

But I also suppose you were never pranked at a sleepover as a teen, either. And never witnessed a sleepover prank.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
36. Maybe being older but the Al Franken pic is not tacky or gross.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:34 PM
Nov 2017

Have you ever seen an uncensored Comedy Roast or USO Show? Bob Hope started the tradition of raunch during USO tours. He knew servicemen were in a war and needed comedy and gorgeous ladies dressed mostly in negligee's.

Other comedians like Don Rickles, Shelly Berman, hell, have you seen Bob Saget's act? He is one of the bluest comedians out there. About the only one who didn't play blue is Bob Newhart.

Context is everything and judging comedy from a USO Tour doesn't even meet the threshold of assault or misconduct or whatthehell ever.

He comes from the tradition of not being afraid of going "there" and I hope he keeps on. Too much pearl clutching over absolutely nothing.

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