I can hardly believe the amount of power some here are willing to cede to anonymous or virtually

[Atticus]

unknown women who simply accuse someone of some impropriety. I am NOT talking about women who identify themselves and provide at least some supporting information about a specific event. I AM talking about the two anonymous people (women?) who now supposedly accuse Al Franken of groping them.

Really? Is this where we're at? No one is suggesting that identifiable accusers be ignored or automatically disbelieved. But, to call for Franken's resignation by cavalierly calling these "accusers 3 and 4" is a bridge too far, IMHO.

[FarPoint]

1. Yes .. it's going there as long as media successfully baits the masses

Trial by Media feeds the ratings . . Tabloid Rules these days...

We are entering the gaits of hell ...We could ignore the stories and claims. .

To truly evoke change there needs to be an organized plan with measurable goals..plus leadership

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. As liberals we are invested in the idea that women claiming harassment should be believed.

The better approach, IMO, should be that women claiming harassment should be taken seriously, which is not the same as being believed unquestioningly. Anonymous complaints should not be believed unquestioningly for the simple reason that they could come from anyone, anywhere, and be completely made up, including their back story. They are insisting on anonymity because they claim to fear harassment on social media. Really? What about the brave women who came forward, in print and on TV, to complain about harassment and assault by the president of the United States? That takes guts, and greatly bolsters their credibility. But how can an anonymous complaint be analyzed at all?

I could sit here in my living room, make a phone call to a major news outlet and hand them some story made up from whole cloth that could destroy someone's career. How is that fair?

[VermontKevin]

9. How about the better approach is that we stop putting the burden on women?

Franken hasn't denied the behavior.

And from the responses on this board, what would indicate to these women that they should subject themselves to social media? A fair hearing from liberals like us here on this board?

[Denzil_DC]

13. If they come forward, they'll get a hearing.

You've already convicted Franken.

I still haven't had you explain why you've posted a gazillion times about it in the last 12 hours.

You have a lot of questions.

You have a lot of questions lined up you haven't answered.

[cwydro]

22. Yes.

What you said.

[mythology]

49. And the people here posting pictures of Tweeden as proof she's slutty and thus consented?

You claim others have convicted Franken, but the opposite is far more true. People here are already convinced that the women are all lying, simply because the posters like Franken. The same people were decrying Tweeden as an isolated mistake are now finding ways to discount the next accusers.

[Denzil_DC]

63. I was quite outspoken in what I posted about the Tweeden allegations and the various photos.

Last edited Thu Nov 23, 2017, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I took a hell of a lot of beatback for it. Maybe you didn't notice me (I won't be hurt, I'm small fry in the grand scheme of things), or maybe you weren't around.

If you're looking for to try to prove some sort of inconsistency, you've chosen probably the worst possible poster to reply to!

So no gotcha there, I'm afraid.

You're welcome to search for what I've said.

The search terms Denzil_DC and Tweeden should show you everything you need to know.

If you can find ANYTHING that conflicts with what I'm saying now, (a) I'll be amazed, and (b) I'll be questioning the performance of my own memory and getting kinda worried about it.

[Demsrule86]

130. People post picture at the same event to show she was just fine after this horrifying event...

She is a righty plant, and you have to want to believe her bullshit complete with a book deal from Sinclair.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Anonymous complaints can't be scrutinized at all. They can come from anyone,

anywhere, and can be completely false. I could make up a story about having been sexually harassed by, say, Barack Obama, and call it in anonymously to Fox News or Breitbart or even CNN, and all hell would break loose. The righties would have a field day while "our" side would gnash their teeth and rend their clothing and weep about how disappointed they were in Obama because, of course, the complaint must be true because a woman made it. I could wreck an honest, innocent person's career with an anonymous complaint if nobody bothered to look into it, just because I'm a woman and We Must Always Believe All Women All The Time - even anonymous ones. That's just crap.

[Denzil_DC]

34. Absolutely. Who could argue with that?

I just can't understand it.

Even anonymous allegations against Trump have far less (or even no) weight compared to those where the complainants have come forward.

I don't see why on earth Franken should be held to a different standard for less serious complaints!

[mythology]

51. You do understand that the journalists will have scrutinized these claims right?

Lots of things are leaked anonymously for lots of reasons. The reporters aren't from Brietbart or some other source that can be discredited because the site/paper is unreliable.

[adigal]

55. You trust even the NY Times when it comes to hurting Dems?

Emails, emails, emails!! Never verified, and stolen and leaked onWikileaks. I ws screaming for a month that these were unverified emails. Could have all been altered. But no - ALL of the media ran them as fact.
You trust people like Maggie “Judith Miller II” Haberman? Nope. I dont.
No name, no attention should be given to it. Even if they accused Trump.

[Igel]

64. Journalism long ago adopted the idea

that valid journalism can include a viewpoint.

That predisposes them to only partially "fully investigate" claims. If the reporter--a person--wants something to be true, counterevidence has to be mighty important. And if you don't want to falsify a claim, it's really easy to not find counterevidence.

We could have a court system with anonymous witnesses. After all, the prosecutor would vet the witness. Perhaps even the judge. But that sounds really, really bad to my ears. Even if it's standard in some countries.


Notice that "discredited because ____ is unreliable" is a classic fallacy. There's an element of pragmatism to it, there's simply not time nor resources to fully investigate every claim. But ultimately deciding that something is false not because it's false but because of the source is a bad practice.

I've been screwed over by "scrutinized" anonymous sources more than once. If you can't challenge your accusers, then the omission of important details is a real problem. Actually, pretty much every place I've worked for more than 5 or 6 years has had at least one such incident, with enlighted, self-serving "disinterested" people sitting in judgment with half the facts.

I'm also familiar with entire countries and political systems, not all right-wing by any means, that relied crucially on anonymous sources. Some also relied crucially on self-criticism as a way of both self-demotion and warning for others: Anonymously condemned, you have to publicly repent to show submission to the real power. You may think that the boss is the top dog, but when you see the boss or officer stand up and apologize for something most know he didn't do just to humiliate him and reduce his authority while a politruk stands off to the side with a lower rank or position, there's no question who's really in charge. Worse was that it was all unofficial, not in a legal setting, so there were no evidentiary standards or legal standards for judging guilt.

[defacto7]

65. Reporters and editors will scrutinize for the profitability

Don't mix the term journalist with reporter. There is little journalism left in MSM.

[treestar]

121. +1

Seriously, relying on journalists without proof is what they poster advocates. Bullshit. The $$ is the only factor, not the truth of the assertions.

[Denzil_DC]

66. Yes, I realize that HuffPo published an article I don't think meets journalistic standards.

I'm not at all surprised.

HuffPo's Clickbait Central. Always has been. I'm selective in what I rely on for information.

I've never relied on HuffPo for serious reportage. Hell, I'd rank BuzzFeed way, way above it, and even then I'd keep a large pinch of salt handy.

If the story pans out with verifiable sources beyond one journalist's second-hand allegations, who's been clutched at by a number of people on here as absolute proof of its veracity, I'll consider it again.

But being a stopped clock won't make me rely on it any more than I do now in future.

[womanofthehills]

99. I was really disappointed in HuffPo for that stupid article

HuffPo sure has deteriorated from what it used to be.

[treestar]

120. lol

the journalists of today? No they would not.

[Shrike47]

47. No. Anonymous reports are worthless and should be ignored.

[treestar]

119. The burden is on the accuser

regardless of gender.

[Demsrule86]

133. Innocent until proven guilty...why should you assume they are telling the truth? Any allegation has

be investigated. No crime or accusation should be assumed to be true...no matter who says what. And I read Franken's statement which I thought was fine. You have to really want to believe ill of Franken to believe any of this shit.

[treestar]

118. It isn't fair

I've had about enough of this claim that we have to believe them automatically.

[Demsrule86]

131. My brother met a woman online...they are riding along going somewhere when she calls cops and

says he kidnapped her...out of the blue. No idea why...he pulled over and told her get out of the car...she did.He also called the cops and said this woman called out of blue and he had no idea what was going on...the cops arrived and cuffed him threw him in the back of the car...but something maybe her behavior gave them pause and they didn't believe her...she was lying...and he hasn't dated since...really shook him up. The weird thing was he really liked her and things were going well...he never knew why she said what she did.

[VermontKevin]

3. Franken's inability to deny the behavior convinced me.

And his audio released last night.

[Denzil_DC]

5. You didn't NEED any convincing!

This from your OP yesterday:

I suggested last week Franken resign.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029876820

Sheesh.

[VermontKevin]

6. Franken didn't deny the behavior. He apologized for it.

I thought he should resign then because it's just not that difficult to imagine the iceberg effect: did ANYONE really think that was the first time he'd done it?

[Denzil_DC]

8. It's not difficult to imagine all sorts of things.

I'm doing it right now!

[stevenleser]

10. That was precisely one of the things that helped make up my mind to defend him

so vigorously at first. People who do this don’t do it once.

Of course then additional accusers came forth.

[BootinUp]

12. lol. nt

[Denzil_DC]

14. I know! n/t

[Atticus]

15. Thank you! nt

[Denzil_DC]

18. I have some sympathy.

When you've been scampering around the place for over 12 hours posting about this at a rate of knots, it's probably hard to keep track of your narrative.

[njhoneybadger]

19. Yes, the inability to deny accusations speaks volumes

[cwydro]

24. He has denied them.

Jeez.

[njhoneybadger]

26. Could you post the denial

[cwydro]

28. You are unable to use the internet?

Also, I’m curious as to why you continually self delete posts on all these threads?

Interesting.

[njhoneybadger]

31. The last one I deleted because the post I was responding to was deleted

[cwydro]

33. I have seen you self delete on several threads.

It’s kind of interesting to see which ones you delete.

[njhoneybadger]

45. The other two were late at night and I thought it might be the alcohol talking

Nothing nefarious

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

114. haha, been there!

[WinkyDink]

79. I've started 100% self-deleting simply because I want to.

[njhoneybadger]

32. Franken's denial

In a statement to HuffPost, Franken said, “It’s difficult to respond to anonymous accusers, and I don’t remember those campaign events.”

[cwydro]

35. There ya go!

I knew you could do it!

[njhoneybadger]

39. Lol

Wouldn't you agree, it would have better if he said I never grabbed any woman's ass.

[cwydro]

42. Denzils reply to you explains that.

It’s really not difficult to understand his position.

Why are you so in on taking him down?

Where are your posts on Moore, Trump, etc.?

[njhoneybadger]

48. Nah,Denzil's reply does not explain why he did't say I never grabbed any women's ass

I'm not trying to take him down
I sure as fuck believe Moore and tRump are sexual predators

[Denzil_DC]

67. So now the goalposts have moved to "I've never grabbed any women's ass"?

Good grief, I can't keep up.

It's like the old "When did you stop beating your ...?"

It sucks, and it's not persuasive at all.

Franken would have been quite entitled to stand on dignity and say, "I'm not going to respond to anonymous allegations." People would have read all sorts of things into that, but hey, THEY ALREADY ARE, with little or no foundation

To expect him to otherwise expects him to add credence to ANYBODY at all who makes an anonymous allegation by handing the outlet a ready-typeset headline: "Franken denies [insert anonymous allegation here]."

Utterly ridiculous.

[njhoneybadger]

70. It's not utterly ridiculous

The goalpost is grabbing ass. It hasn't moved

[Denzil_DC]

71. If that's all you've got, quit wasting my time, please. n/t

[moriah]

77. And sadly it's not illegal in certain states to go forcibly south of the waist...

... which I had an interesting discussion about when people were attempting to justify unwanted grabbing in bars.

I was surprised, but yet not, that apparently the line between me and my ass getting grabbed without penalty if they won't let go is the line between me and Texas. (I think if I go to Texarkana again, I'll try to go to bars on this side of the state line.)

What Franken unequivocally denied was propositioning anyone for a sexual encounter in a bathroom, the second allegation made by one of the women claiming he copped a feel.

I'm at this point willing to believe that he very well may have grabbed asses. The circumstances of such ass-grabbing may vary from him and Arianna Huffington horsing around to potentially copping cheap feels randomly as he's being accused of.

I do have to admit if he *can't* honestly say he's never grabbed an ass, that I'm glad he's NOT saying that. Even if I wish he could.

But he can without a doubt say he never propositioned anybody for icky gross public bathroom secks. Seriously?

[WinkyDink]

80. How could assault be legal anywhere? (Actually, the touching is battery.)

[moriah]

84. Not a sex crime. In AR, forced Frenching isn't one either, but...

... if while they've got you backed up against the wall their hand touches ass, then it's 2nd degree sexual assault here.

In Texas, they seem to have this obsession with the word "anus" in their sex crime code, and left out "buttocks" in favor of it.

[njhoneybadger]

50. Ad Hominem

is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

[Denzil_DC]

68. Yes, I'm seeing a lot of that among the Franken accusers on here.

No idea what your point was.

[Denzil_DC]

36. That sounds like a denial.

How on earth can you deny meeting somebody or anything else about the occasion if you don't know who that somebody is?!

Catch-22.

[treestar]

122. No one has to deny mere accusations

Let the accuser prove it.

Why grant people so much power? Anyone could do that to you. It's too easy to do.

[Kingofalldems]

21. Oops. What happened?

[LakeArenal]

29. Inablility to deny the behavior?

Wow. Moore denies, Trump denies, Weinstein denies... all pretty vehemently.. So they must be innocent.

Wow.. Say nothing Al. Let them get all their stories out. Shout them from the roof for all I care.. Just stay cool, honey bunny...

Al Franken has the ability to say anything. You wouldn't believe him anyway.

[pnwmom]

52. How can anyone deny an accusation when there is no accuser? He's asked for an investigation.

A real one -- not a witch hunt.

[njhoneybadger]

60. If someone accused you of robbing a bank

I think you would deny that accusation.

[treestar]

124. Bullshit. You should not. In the process you

will say things they can use against you.

It is evil to allow people power for only making an accusation. That allows any liar to start something. Make THEM prove it.

If you are ever accused you should get a lawyer and SHUT UP.

I hope you don't ever use the power you think you should have just for saying something.

[Demsrule86]

132. Oh please, you want to believe it. I have no idea why, but there it is.

[Voltaire2]

4. We need not be egregious hypocrites.

[american_ideals]

7. These "Scandals" sourced/fueled by Kremlin / alt-right

Link to tweet

From the Russian Troll monitoring dashboard (run by Clint Watts):
http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/

Between November 11 and November 17, we examined 55 articles that were among the top URLs shared by Kremlin-oriented accounts on Twitter. Over 40% of the URLs focused on sexual misconduct allegations; of those URLs, 42% attacked accused Democrats (or those connected to liberal causes), 4% promoted a narrative of a Saudi-linked pedophile ring, and 54% defended Roy Moore.

https://imgur.com/rBEu51V

[Cryptoad]

41. Welcome to DU,,,,,Comrade!

[Beartracks]

108. DUers, this is important to know. +1. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Politically correct intent run amok.

[Beartracks]

16. IKR? Is sexual assault such a "sacred" experience that Dems can't believe...

... people would lie about it to achieve certain ends? We're willing to accept that men will lie about having done it, but we're not willing to accept that women could lie about having been victimized?

And a clarification for the OP: These 2 anonymous women did not SUPPOSEDLY ACCUSE him of groping them; they have accused him of SUPPOSEDLY GROPING them.

============

[cwydro]

20. It is quite unbelievable.

A lot of very gullible folks, or there is a more sinister explanation...

[PatSeg]

23. I was disappointed

when I heard some of the sexual harassment/assault allegations of people that I really admired, but the evidence was very overwhelming and convincing. I do not feel that way about Al Franken. The allegations just do not ring true and the fact that the last two were anonymous is pretty suspicious. This is a political hack job, one that Franken does not deserve. Who will be next?

[world wide wally]

25. It seems to keep being left out of the conversation that being lecherous may be a

personal disorder, but there are actually laws against being a pedophile.

[Ms. Toad]

27. Those women are not anonymous to the reporter,

And one of them disclosed the incident to the reporter contemporaneously. (I beleive the other disclosed contemporaneously to friends who confirmed it to the reporter - but that's just going on memory.)

My concern is that we are engaging in a double standard.

The woman is to be believed if she makes an accusation against a Republican

But her account is politically movitaved (all things I've seen on DU since the Franken allegations came out:
She accuses someone on our sided
She is a Republian
She has ever permittted her photo to be taken scantily clad
She discloses too late (even if she disclosed confidentially or to friends and family
She discloses anonymously (even if she is known to the reporter, who also speaks with friends and family to whom she disclosed contemporaneously)
The timing coincides with the accusations against Moore.

We would have properly scoffed at these responses, if offered by Republicans - so they should be met with similar disdain when the person accused is one of our own.

That said, I don't think Franken should resign - even if the accusations are 100% accurate. Unfortunately, if we hold men to the standard that anyone who ever inappropriately touched a woman should resign, there wouldn't be many men left to choose from. No, it's not every man - but it is far more (even of the "good" ones) than is generally acknowledged.

Franken's second apology was appropriate and reflective. I'd like to see him make similar apologies in connection with the butt grabbing which, frankly, seems like a pattern - and I'd like to see some formal commitment to engaging in training, or a series of conversations, designed to make sure he really "gets it" that even something I'm sure he viewed as innocuous at the time (butt grab) can have a pretty severe emotional impact on the recipient. (Speaking from personal experience here - as the recipient of strikingly similar behavior from an acquaintance who really didn't understand (1) that what he was doing was wrong/unwelcome or (2) the impact that it had on me. I know both of those because we have since spent a fair amout of time talking about it.)

In contrast, the accusations against Moore, Trump, and Weiner (to add one from our side) are far more serious - and they should resign.

[Blue_true]

43. I don't agree fully with you.

If we give Franken a pass of inappropriate touching, then we need to abandon our claim of being the party that protects the rights of women and girls. Men that can get away with groping because the females groped are afraid to come forward move on to more vicious conduct like sexual assault - this is the reality that a young Jane Doe in a office that is being touched by her boss or a powerful male or female HAS TO MAKE HER CLAIM ANNONYMOUSLY, that is why major corporations have annonymous reporting of inappropriate behavior in the workplace.

[Ms. Toad]

74. Are you sure you are responding to the right person?

I'm pushing back at someone who essentially called this politically motivated and not credible because it was anonymous. I didn't suggest that anonymous reporting was a problem - I don't have a problem with anonymous reporting (which I thought I said pretty clearly - especially since someone else picked a bone with me becuase I indicated I was just fine wiht anonymous reporting.).

Nor did I suggest giving Franken a pass. I just don't necessarily think the punishment for all inappropriate touching should be banishment from public service for life. We sould look at the circumstance - how recent, how pervasive, how serious, what was his response, did he apologize publicly & privately, did he attempt to make amends, did he acknowledge and attempt to change his behavior going forward. Whatever standards there are should be applied equally - regardless of political affiliation.

On the range of behavior I have experienced - from street harassment to butt fondling, to breast grabbing, and rape, the butt fondling is on the milder end of the spectrum. His recognition of the nature of his behavior seems sincere (at least as to the first accuser), and his apology was appropriate. Assuming he responds similarly to the more recent accusations, his punishment should be more than nothing, but less than losing his job, from my perspective.

As I noted, if we banished all men who engaged in similar behavior, we would pretty much solve the problem of insufficient women in leadership roles because we'd lose quite a few (likely more than most people expect) on both sides of the political aisle.

[Blue_true]

85. If Franken did the groping as alleged by the two most recent two, we gain nothing by allowing him to

keep his job, I argue that we add to the problem both in politics and broader life. I am a man, I have no concern with 100% female leadership if things come to that.

[Ms. Toad]

87. The fact that you are a man may account for the difference in perspective.

The allegations against Franken are pretty run of the mill - and represent the kind of choices women have always had to make in politics between men with clay feet as to their personal background of sexual abuse/harassment but who can be counted on to help implement progressive policies.

I voted for Clinton after, and despite, allegations he raped Juanita Broaddrick. Although it isn't the same issue, I also voted for Barack Obama against my own interests when it was clear he has a pretty significant personal aversion to homosexuality - because he otherwise could be counted on to be more progressive than the Republican opponent (and intellectually, he was supportive of at least non-discrimination toward LGBT individuals).

There will almost never be a candidate whose values and personal characteristics align with all of mine. As to this issue, I think the #MeToo movement has awakened a lot of men to just how pervasive this kind of transgression is. Its is, unfortunately, a knowledge I have been living with personally for 5 decades - beginning with a diving instructor who fondled me during diving lessons at age 11.

So the choice for me always comes down to a balancing act. As to Franken, even assuming all the allegations are true (and I believe they are), I still come down to keeping him in Congress being a net positive.

[Demit]

44. If the accusations are true, he grabbed three butts ten years ago.

That's a pattern of three from ten years ago. What happened to break the pattern, do you suppose?

Or are you already assuming that he has continued the pattern?

[Ms. Toad]

73. I'm assuming that he continued the pattern.

When the first story came out, one of the responses that I saw was, "In what universe could this happen?" and described how unbelievable it was the something like this would happen in the open, with the husband around and hundreds of fairgoers. My reaction was that pretty much the exact same thing happened ot me. I was not at all surprised to see the 3rd and 4th accusation - and will not be surprised if there are more.

On the other hand, someone whose butt he grabbed may have had a good long sit-down with him - like I did with my own butt-grabber. The person who fondled my butt in a public setting, like the fair setting of Franken's inintial accuser, had absolutely no clue he had crossed the line, and wanted to know why I was all of a sudden avoiding him like the plague. (He was a gay male, and within at least the sub-population of gay men in which he circulated, butt fondling among friends without consent was apparently the norm.) After our conversation, his behavior dramatically changed - and he became a very strong advocate for checking for consent first. The same may have happened with Franken as he moved from the frat-boy atmosphere of SNL at the time into politics, but it doesn't surprise me at all that there were some growing pains.

[pnwmom]

53. I agree with most of this, but I don't agree that we should take anonymous stories seriously

whether the object is a D or an R.

People should have a chance to confront their accusers -- not just persuade some reporter -- and this denies them that chance.

[Ms. Toad]

75. When women are equal to men, and can safely make reports of sexual abuse without fear

of the kind of smack-downs that are occurring right now even in progressive circles like DU, I might agree with you.

Particularly when the target of the allegation is someone on our side, DU has been pretty brutal. Just look at any thread discussing the non-anonymous accuser Tweeden:

It's all politically motivated.
She appeared half-naked all over the interne - what did she expect.
Just look at her touching others - how dare she complain when Franken touches her.
It's a hit job.
It was part of a skit she consented to.

Why on earth would anyone subject themselves to that kind of abuse?

[pnwmom]

76. Roy Moore's accusers were willing to come forward, because it was worth it to them.

So were Weinstein's and many others. They were healing real and painful wounds.

I think Tweeden's accusation, OTOH, was part of a coordinated hit job with Roger Stone. And the kiss was part of the skit, that she agreed to. Nowhere in her statement did she say that she had told Franken she didn't want to kiss him. And the weirdest part was, her 2017 claim that he only wrote the skit to get a kiss from her (obviously not true, because the skit was first performed in 2003 with another female actor) was a recycled accusation from the skit itself. In the skit her CHARACTER tells Franken's CHARACTER that he only wrote the skit to get her to kiss him. Now, in real life 2017, she's saying the same thing. I think she got the idea from the skit , and either didn't remember or thought no one would ever dig it up and see it.

[Ms. Toad]

78. So because some accusers are willing to disclose their names,

anyone who feels unable to do so is part of a political hit job - assuming the accused is on our side? I've worked with enough rape and sexual abuse survivors to know that it is not reaslistic to expect all victims to (1) confront their survivors at all (2) to confront them on a particular timeline (3) confront them publicly.

According to Tweeden's allegations, she repeatedly refused to practice the kiss numerous times - and finally gave in to the practice to tet him to stop badgering her. The kiss she is complaining about was not part of the skit - but a practice session. Agreeing to a simple kiss is not the same as agreeing to a more invasive "French" kiss - and as to the skit itself, she intended to turn her cheek to avoid it.

Perhaps even more relevant - Franken acknowledges his bad behavior in the photo and, while he indicated he did not remember the rehearsal that way, he did not dispute her emotional experience of the interaction.

We should be taking our lead from him.

[pnwmom]

83. No, according to her allegations, she didn't "refuse" to do anything. That was the problem.

http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/

As a TV host and sports broadcaster, as well as a model familiar to the audience from the covers of FHM, Maxim and Playboy, I was only expecting to emcee and introduce the acts, but Franken said he had written a part for me that he thought would be funny, and I agreed to play along.

This isn't true. She had been a performer in previous USO shows, just like she was a performer in this one -- in multiple skits, not just Franken's.

When I saw the script, Franken had written a moment when his character comes at me for a ‘kiss’. I suspected what he was after, but I figured I could turn my head at the last minute, or put my hand over his mouth, to get more laughs from the crowd.

This is the claim her CHARACTER made in the skit itself.

On the day of the show Franken and I were alone backstage going over our lines one last time. He said to me, “We need to rehearse the kiss.” I laughed and ignored him. Then he said it again. I said something like, ‘Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss.’

He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable.

He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.

She said ok so he would stop "badgering" her. She didn't say no. For the tongue part, we just have to take her word on it -- and based on the rest of her statement, she doesn't seem credible to me.

[Ms. Toad]

88. Consent that comes after repeated refusals to practice,

"for the sole purpose of terminating the badgering (as the lesser of two evils) is not consent.

Yes the word she said was, "ok" - but it followed Franken repeatedly pressing her to rehearse the kiss. That is classic sexual harassment, and ultimate consent to get persistent pressure for sexual engagement to stop is not true consent.

Again, we should be following Franken's lead. You're still trying to discredit his accuser (which Franken has not done), and you're ignoring his acknowledgement that he was behaving inappropriately in the photo.

[pnwmom]

97. She voluntarily signed up for a job that involved performing a skit that had been performed

Last edited Thu Nov 23, 2017, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

for years. The skit involved a kiss. She lied about thinking she was going to be the emcee. She also lied when she said she never voluntarily had anything to do with him again. A few years later she chose to attend a dinner specifically held to honor him. No one made her do that, or have her picture taken with him there.

He apologized about his behavior on the USO tour in a general way but said he didn't remember it the way she did. So I"m trusting him.

[Demit]

89. You say we should take our lead from him because he doesn't dispute her emotional experience.

Does that mean he can never dispute her version of what actually happened?

That *we* can never question her version of what actually happened?


Sorry, that's a bridge too far.

[Ms. Toad]

91. I said nothing about whether he could dispute her version -

Only that he has not.

As to "we" - that is generally correct. If the parties to an interaction are not disputing what actually happened, it is not our place to dispute it.

[Demit]

95. He most certainly *did* dispute her version of what happened.

In a gentle way, while granting her her "emotional experience," but he did NOT concede her version of events.

And so, since there is a question of what happened, and since there is a political career that will affect the country that hangs in the balance, it most certainly is in our interest to try to get to the truth of the matter.

[Ms. Toad]

98. He acknowledged the photo

He said his recollection of the rehearsal did not match hers, but he didn't deny her experience.

As to the most recent accusers, he acknowledged "crossing the line" for some women.

It is incredibly offensive to insist that we, as people who were not present, know more than the parties involved. Even more so when Franken is making every effort to take responsibilty for actions he has acknowledged, on three different occasions, were inappropriate.

[Demit]

102. "his recollection of the rehearsal did not match hers" means he disputes her version of events.

Jeez.

I don't know more than the parties involved. That's why I want to hear more about how his recollection of the rehearsal differs from hers. Because there is a truth that hasn't become evident yet. Leeann's version of events is not the only truth, regardless of what her emotional experience might have been.

[treestar]

125. That is unfair

Justice is about the individual case.

[treestar]

127. Being believed had nothing to do with party

But the individual circumstances. Geez!

[Mountain Mule]

30. Couldn't agree more!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

37. I can't believe people don't see how women who speak out are treated and then wonder why they want

to stay anonymous.

[hay rick]

40. Anonymity cuts two ways.

Yes, it protects the accuser from recriminations. On the other hand, anonymity can also be used to smear an innocent person with baseless charges. When I read reports of anonymous accusations I try to keep both things in mind.

[adigal]

58. How is it fair in any way if a person cannot confront his accuser? What BS.

It isnt admissable in court, and we shouldnt pay attention to anonymous accusations. At all. If a woman doesnt want to be names, then she shouldnt be abke to ruin a reputation and leave the accused no recourse.
Basic fairness. Jesus.

[treestar]

126. Are treated? You mean not believed unconditionally?

For goodness sake! If you are going to accuse someone of a bad thing, you should be willing to be questioned. If you aren't, maybe you aren't credible?

[MFM008]

38. Im still not convinced

still smells like Bannon/Stone bull crap.

[dflprincess]

105. I agree

They want us to believe that Franken is a serial groper but he apparently has the habit of doing it while pictures are being taken at crowded events. I tend to think Al is not that stupid and, apparently one of the recent accusations happened at an event that his wife also attended. If he wasn't worried about the woman he supposedly groped making a scene you'd think he would have thought Franni might deck him.

Personally, I think they tipped their hand when they tried to make the publicity stills he took with Arianna Huffington into something...Apparently it never dawned on them that Arianna would sit idly by and let them lie.

[MFM008]

117. Excellent point

About the public molesting....

[lillypaddle]

46. +1000 nt

[adigal]

54. No name? I give it no credence. Period.

And I would feel the same of accusers of Trump and Moore.
Anyone can make up any shit with no name. In fact, maybeI will. Just for fun.

[Exultant Democracy]

59. Some here are trolls plane and simple, more than we would think.

Based on what we have seen with how the Russians use social media. If they knew enough to shut DU down on Election Day (a fact) then it would be crazy to not expect them to get a bunch of trolls going. I would even think from how the birther stuff went down that we didn’t get a crop of deep cover trolls in late 2008 and 2009 to cultivate.

Anyone who was willing to take the word of an Obama birthed like the first accuser was is suspect. Anyone who thinks a admitted Trump voter is telling the truth is suspect, and anyone willing to convict in the court of public option on the work of two anonymous sources (especially considering the moment we are having) is suspect. Especially when the target of this hit came out day one in favor of a full investigation.

[steve2470]

96. trolls and the hyer-idealistic-ignore-the-Republicans

If Franken was accused, with good evidence, of truly sexually harassing women, ok, he should resign. It's not to that point. I seriously doubt it ever will. He should NOT resign.

[yurbud]

61. the GOP is trying to reframe the debate or at least muddy the water.

[jalan48]

62. How can anonymous complaints be verified?

[jalan48]

92. Is Al Franken considered "public"?

[Progressive dog]

72. Anonymous complaints are worthless

as evidence of anything.

[AncientGeezer]

82. Isn't almost EVERYONE on this forum posting anonymously?

I don't see a big rush for us all to post our specifics, real names, every vote we ever cast when we were younger, did we make a mistake that could ruin us forever ... to be torn to shreds if we make a claim that someone doesn't like... would be the 1st argument for anonymity if it were me.

That's what happens to people that claim harm....left and right...a claim is made and everyone starts the Oppo...can we find a nekked pic of the claimant, can we find a discrepancy in their claim by 4 minutes, can we find that they spoke to a republican/democrat EVER in their life.

Remember when Anthony Weiner was 1st "caught".....Daily Kos had post after post about faked "data" in the tweets in his defense....I quit the joint because of that crap....or here when Fitzmas happened....what a freak show...everyone to their corners and a shitstorm ensued. Pitt....there's a blast from the past.

I have nothing against anonymity....Because of the shit the person may have to endure...we wonder why women don't come forward immediately or without anonymity anymore...... this fustercluck of "lets find the dirt on her and publicize it"..... from everyone.

[Demit]

93. Next time a poster on DU accuses a public figure of sexual assault, let us know what you think then.

[AncientGeezer]

94. Isn't that what's happening with Sen. Frankin?

He's issued several apologizes for his behavior...I take him at his word...he finds his behavior unacceptable....from named and anonymous sources.

[Demit]

100. No. DUers are posting opinions on accusations made from people in the news.

We are the audience, not the newsmakers. Our anonymity isn't relevant to what is happening to Senator Franken.

[AncientGeezer]

103. Really...Have you Not seen the posts claiming it's all a Russian hack job?

The women have no credibility, unless they out themselves it's a Hit from the scum like Stone....
Tell me...you haven't seen those?

[hay rick]

116. Cool story, Vlad.

But I do miss Wm. Pitt.

[AncientGeezer]

136. That's an interesting rebuttal

[madville]

86. The Washington Post articles on Rep. Barton are citing an anonymous source

The woman he had a relationship has never been publicly identified or made a public statement. She has been making her accusations anonymously through the reporters. Do we not believe those now?

[Vinca]

90. In that case there is other proof. Proof I wish my eyes could unsee. LOL.

[delisen]

104. Pictures are all over internet,Barton

doesn't dispute. He has verified.

[LisaL]

106. She provided enough evidence which is impossible to deny, such as

a taped conversation. There is also a photographic evidence which we have all seen.

[madville]

109. What is it evidence of is my question?

I have yet to figure out exactly what all this is evidence of. A crime? No. It was meant to be embarrassing is all I'm really seeing. The media is picking up the point now that what she did may have been a crime. CNN and NBC News both had front page stories earlier about this possibly being revenge porn and police investigations being initiated to investigate that aspect of it.

[LisaL]

111. An affair.

You've never heard about a politician brought down by an affair before?

[madville]

112. Sure

The debate in that area is whether it was an affair while he was with his wife or if the relationship blossomed after he and his wife separated but before they were legally divorced (his explanation). Still nothing illegal, nonconsensual or in the workplace as we are seeing with so many other politicians and others lately.

My bet at this point is that he retires instead of running next year, might be an opportunity to pick up a seat. I couldn't care less about this guy or what he likes sexually in private. My problem with the whole thing is the revenge porn aspect of it, I know several women that have had to deal with embarrassing photos and videos involving them being passed around and shared, it is very damaging to the victims of that crime and I believe they are good laws that no one should be immune from.

[LisaL]

123. She taped the conversation with him where he himself says the two of them

had this relationship while he was married. If he retires, because he is in a mostly republican area, we won't pick up the seat.
But regarding his marital status, there he is in his own words.

"Said Barton: “I would tell them that I had a three-year undercover relationship with you over the Internet that was heavily sexual and that I had met you twice while married and had sex with you on two different occasions and that I exchanged inappropriate photographs and videos with you that I wouldn’t like to be seen made public, that you still apparently had all of those and were in position to use them in a way that would negatively affect my career. That’s the truth.”"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/congressman-told-woman-he-would-report-her-to-capitol-police-if-she-exposed-his-secret-sex-life/2017/11/22/e3345862-cf10-11e7-a1a3-0d1e45a6de3d_story.html

[brooklynite]

101. "Franken issues Thanksgiving Day apology, pledges to regain constituents' trust"

Definitely a denial...

[kcr]

110. Good one! Be sure to tell him that one next time he calls you. n/t

[brooklynite]

113. In my selection of candidates to support, Im cold-blooded...

I would DEFINITELY ask him if the allegations and his response put his electability at risk.

[Voltaire2]

128. If we cannot rise above hypocritical hyper-partisanship

we are doomed as a party. We already suffer from the perception that we stand for nothing.

[TheDebbieDee]

107. The Dems calling for the resignation of Franken and Conyers before an Ethics Investigation

is completed are the overly-polite, taking the high road, bail on the first hint of trouble/scandal, do-gooder Dems that sabotage the Democratic party at every turn! They make Dems/progressives look weak and slow down any momentum we get!

When the republicans shoot themselves in the foot by supporting some dickwad like Roy Moore, Dems/progressives retaliate by shooting themselves in the HEAD by calling for Franken and Conyers to resign before an investigation con be completed...

[Madam Mossfern]

115. Truth

n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

134. Democrats don't bring knives to gunfights any more.

They bring guns and use them to shoot themselves.

[Demsrule86]

129. And the 'he stared at my chest...sounds like junior high.

[Thekaspervote]

135. Let them come forward in a court of law and swear u dear oath that it's so

Not sure the story would be the same