We're searched at the mall, our communications are monitored...

[Atman]

...we take off our shoes at the airport, there are cameras on every street corner...yet Holmes planned this for months, and was able to amass an arsenal of high powered weapons, enough ammo to take out a small city, and even napalm. Then walk into a movie theater wearing a gas mask.

Feeling safer yet? Thanks, Homeland "Security." It was billions well spent.

[Zalatix]

1. He wasn't a Muslim. You can't reasonably expect non-Muslims to do things like this.

[2on2u]

4. Speaking of which..... of all of the incredibly insane violent crimes across this country, how

many of them, what percentage are committed by people of the Muslim faith? My take is that it is an extremely low percentage of the whole.

[nanabugg]

51. He wasn't black either. Never would have been able to "legally purchase" this stuff without

being arrested or arrested or put under surveillance.

[Pholus]

2. Hey, it's just "wise" politics. Don't profile the white guy, don't profile the gun buyer.

Makes me mad that every time I drive through the border patrol checkpoint on Arizona S.R. 86 and watch those guys simply wave this fat pasty-white guy through without scrutiny. If I *were* hispanic I would wear the "Don't Panic White People: I'm here legally" T-shirt EVERY SINGLE DAY. Course that would have me on the ground handcuffed I suppose...

[leveymg]

3. He may have shown up in a database, but didn't fit the profile.

Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Holmes may well have appeared as a blip on some screen. But, hey, his profile is just like millions of other white, Right-wing leaning gun nuts. We have to prioritize, you know.

(edited to remove information about the father now believed to pertain to an unrelated individual)

[SickOfTheOnePct]

7. I'm pretty sure that's incorrect

There were a number of posts here yesterday saying that the donor was a different Holmes.

[leveymg]

8. Thnx. I'll look at that again.

[leveymg]

16. Here's a bio of the father, Robert M. Holmes, Sr. - manager of a software company

Can't vouch for this profile, but it appears legitimate:

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2012/jul/20/holmess-father-is-anti-fraud-scientist/

Holmes's Father Is Anti-Fraud Scientist

Don Bauder, July 20, 2012

According to reporting by San Diego Reader editor Matt Potter, the father of the suspected Colorado mass murderer is almost certainly an anti-fraud scientist at a San Diego company. He is Robert M. Holmes, senior lead scientist at the San Diego office of Minneapolis-based FICO, New York Stock Exchange-listed company that was formerly named Fair Isaac.

He is listed as living at the same Rancho Penasquitos address on Sparren Ave. as his wife Arlene, who earlier talked with reporters about her son. Robert M. Holmes's picture appears to be the same person who was shown on TV entering a car to begin a trip to Denver. FICO spokesperson Kate Sellers Blatt would not confirm that Holmes worked for the firm, saying in an email, "Out of respect for the privacy of our employees, as a matter of policy FICO does not disclose information about individuals."

The senior Holmes has a PhD in statistics from Cal-Berkeley, a Master's in biostatistics from UCLA, and a bachelor's in mathematics from Stanford. Over the last ten years, he has developed predictive models for financial services, and credit and fraud risk models. He is one of several scientists who patented a predictive model system used to detect telecommunications fraud

[lunatica]

26. I work in the Department of Statistics in UC Berkeley!

He must have been one of our grad students way back when...

From his linkedin page:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-holmes/4/47b/24a

University of California, Berkeley
Ph.D., Statistics
1976 – 1981


Stanford University
BS, Mathematics
1969 – 1973

University of California, Los Angeles
MA, MS, Mathematics, Biostatistics

[leveymg]

35. As a statistician, I'm sure you can appreciate the "six degrees of separation" aspect of this.

One of the advantages of posting to a community as large as DU is fact-checking. There will probably be someone here who has some closer information about any subject than is publicly available in the mass media.

[lunatica]

40. Here he is in a list of former grad students under Prof. Peter Bickel

http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~bickel/Students.htm

Peter Bickel is in our Department of Statistics.

http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~bickel/index.html

I'll have to ask him about this. This must be very shocking to him! Six degrees of separation indeed!

edited to add first link

[SickOfTheOnePct]

46. Yes, Robert M. Holmes

Not the Robert A. Holmes that donated to Duke Cunningham.

[Lionessa]

15. Even if this was true, parents and young adults are not necessarily of the same political persuasion

I have a real problem judging anyone by their parents, it's entirely unfair, y'know the whole sins of the father shouldn't be laid upon the son thing. Very tacky to go there, particularly when it seems not to be true.

[leveymg]

48. Not an endorsement - just musing about how the gov't might do profiling, and why this guy

apparently wasn't detected or effectively deterred.

[allan01]

5. re:We're searched at the mall, our communications are monitored...

when i go to our local social security office they have a cool security guard ) private contractor). He says that he fears our local kooks more than any of the terriests. he said one time the mayor of the city where i live , came in. had a gun on him. the guard made him take it out and put it back in his car. ( in the meantime the mayor was screaming 'its my 2nd amendment rights to bear arms and such", the guard replied ,' no you dont , this is a fedearl building , u take that out now!"security is to keep us honest folk honest. the criminals can defeat such "security" and security is an illusion . Condolances to the victoms families and prayors to the wounded for quick recovery of their injories.

[coalition_unwilling]

34. Kabuki theater masking a massive Keynsian hiring and spending program, imo. (God knows

what the unemployment rate and GDP would be like without all the security spending over the past 12 years.) Has not made us one whit safer, just pissed off a lot of people by inconveniencing them.

[zeemike]

6. Keeping us safe is a for profit industry,

And so is selling protection...so what do you expect but growth?
This tragedy will flow billions to the industry and a many lives lost is worth it to the ones making the money.

[midnight]

9. I would much rather spend this money training the next generation of skilled workers and pay them

great wages with benefits, provide free health care to all citizens, provide affordable housing, and dependable public transportation....

[Atman]

11. You crazy liberal!

Training, jobs? Free health care? Everyone knows liberals won't work anyway, and want the free stuff. That's why we need to protect ourselves from them!

(There, a post ready for our right-wing nut jobs friends to cut & paste).

[Lionessa]

17. Exactly! Anger and idleness are the problems that allowed for this,

as well as most of the "gangland" issues. We've seen it over and over in the histories of many countries. The biggest threat to security is inequality in housing, education, healthcare, and employment opportunities that create entire generations of "angry young men" (and women) with too much time on their hands, nothing that they can be proud of, and no hope in sight.

[malaise]

10. Only the NRA and their goons have rights

Fugg everyone else

[valerief]

12. Homeland Security is another racket like WAR and the War For Drugs. nt

[valerief]

50. Front line in the War FOR Drugs. nt

[Patiod]

13. Homeland Security Theater

At least, that's what frequent air travelers call it.

[Lionessa]

14. Searched at the mall? I've never been.

Now I rarely step into a mall, perhaps that's why, but I've never been searched anywhere since I don't fly, been through a few metal detectors at federal buildings, but that's it. Where in the world is being searched at the mall a standard so I can be sure not to go there?

[snooper2]

32. I've never had a bag searched ever leaving any mall... Only time ever is leaving Fry's

[Posteritatis]

53. I haven't either, but I have heard about it a bunch. (nt)

[AllyCat]

55. we don't fly anywhere either

Had not heard about the mall. Guess I'm glad I don't shop either.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. You get searched at your mall? Seriously? Where do you live?

also, no cameras on the street corners around here. I have seen that in the UK, not in the US.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. No, they simply are not present here. Also, no one is 'routinely serached' at malls here.

Sorry, I do not live in New Jersey, last time I was there I saw more security crap than here, but still no one searched my bags while shopping, even in Jersey. Just how it is.
There are not cameras on every traffic light and lamp post. Someone did put some pink swinging monkeys on a block or two of lamp posts recently, whimsical and fun. No cameras.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. I know what NY is like. Many, many friends and family there.

I never once suggested NYC has no cctv. You know that. You insisted that they are everywhere, on all the lamp posts, and I said there are none here. You then told me I was wrong. Now you are walking it all back.
You know, most Americans go to the mall. So they know they are not 'routinely searched'. Insisting that we are does not make it so. If you are routinely searched, you need to take personal action. Organize locally. Do something about it.
Personally, I do not much care to spend time in NYC or NY State the last decade, as the paranoia is just a bit much for me....I don't like the actual policies such as the fact that NYC marijuana arrests are around 90% minority male youth. To me, that is a serious issue. Energy spent trying to convince people they get searched at the mall when they don't distracts from such issues as that.

[Atman]

49. Cell phones have face-recognition in them, as does Facebook.

Of course, generally only GOOD cell phones, because still, if you've ever seen iOS sift through your photo database and point out the names of the people in your pictures, you'd know this is not "hysteria," as Bluenorthwesterner want to believe. I believe that is more a product of not wanting to believe. You move to the boondocks, you think you're secure, but dayum...it's still out there. On your phone, on your internet connection. Pretending you're "safe" from such intrusion just because you're in the middle of nowhere is pure folly. Dude is posting on a very-watched PUBLIC message board, popularized by the subversi (I made that up), and he thinks he has nothing to worry about, and that there are no public security cameras in Oregon. Wal Mart probably has more cameras mounted in it's stores than it actually sells in their camera department. And if he really lives in the boonies, Wal Mart is probably the only choice he has to shop.

.

[dixiegrrrrl]

29. You must live in a fair size city/town.

Hell, we only have 5 stop lights in our town, until you get to the edge of the town limits where the Wal-Mart was recently put in, so of course out there they installed a light.
"Getting stuck in traffic" here means hitting a light when it is red.

[Atman]

30. I live in the country. We don't even have a police department.

So if the responder was making a purely literal take on my post, then no, cameras are not over "every street corner." Leave it to DUers! LOL! But even in my tiny town, there are a few strategically place cams. If I go into the Hartford area, though, I wouldn't say it was an exaggeration that there is a camera on nearly every street corner. And even in the very affluent area of West Hartford, known as Blue Back Square, there a cameras on every corner, on the traffic lights, and even pointing up and down the sidewalks. And while the "good" mall near us, with the Neiman Marcus and Apple Store, is merely covered with cameras and lots of security guards, it's a different story at the the mall on the east side of Springfield, MA. It's a decidedly working-class area with aging mall anchored by an old JCPenny and lots of no-name shops and dollar stores. You have to walk through metal detectors and are subject to search when you enter. Not everyone is searched, of course. But trying walking in in a hoodie and baggy jeans.

And the responder has obviously never been to New York City. They have portable CONTROL TOWERS, mounted on the back of trailers, that elevate 35 feet above the street. They're covered with cameras pointed in every direction, and armed security personnel. I'm not just talking about near the 9/11 site, we saw them in several places as we made our way around the city.

Even when we drive up north to the remote areas of Vermont, there are "traffic cams" along the interstate. There is no "traffic" here. There is NEVER a traffic jam, there is no rush hour to alert upon. But the highway is monitored with cameras mounted 50 feet up on poles. Maybe the doubter has been mistaking these for street lights...they look very similar to a street light, just smaller.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. The poster has been to NYC. Many, many times. And NJ. Tons of friends and family in both.

And sir, when I told you the facts of life around here, you claimed I simply had not noticed all those cameras on every light pole. You said:
"If you haven't seen cameras on street corners in the USA you haven't bothere to look up.
They're on every traffic light, lamp posts, buildings -- maybe you just haven't noticed them yet."
How could that be anything but literal? I say 'no cameras here' and you say 'oh yes there are, on every traffic light and lamp post.
Typing crap that is not true to build up fear is a right wing thing to do, no matter the lexicon it is wrapped up in, so I just do not support it.

[Atman]

38. Well, actually, no, that wasn't me who replied to you that way.

And if you've been to NYC, you're lying if you claim that virtually every corner isn't monitored.

And even if I had written that response, it is EASY that it could be anything but literal. It's called "context" and perhaps even some "artistic license" to make a point about how pervasive the cameras are. Now, if he (or me, for that matter) had said "the cameras are on literally every street corner!" you might have a point.

Kind of like saying "Every American is better off because of Obama." We know that many are better off, but that a great deal of them are NOT better off, and some more just can't stand him and are holed up in their basements, hoarding food and waiting for the apocolypse. You see, "every" doesn't mean "every" every time. But there are many DUers, like yourself, who delight in playing semantic games and deliberately trying to derail every thread (ha ha, you see what I did there?!)

Good day.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. Typing this for the second time: "I never once suggested NYC has no cctv."

Lying? I never suggested NYC has no cctv. Obviously they do.

The other poster is trying to tell me that there are cameras on every lamp post not just in NY or NJ. That is not the case. I am not in NYC. I am not there for many reasons, including the security polities and paranoia of the city and State of NY at this juncture. I simply said we do not have such cameras, and the poster insisted that I was wrong about my own home town. I'm sure that poster has never been here, or to the entire State of Oregon. I have worked and played in NYC since the 80's. I know about their security policies.

[Atman]

45. I find it very, very difficult to believe there are not security cams in Portland.

Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:33 PM - Edit history (1)

I can't use MY town as a typical example anymore than you can, because we obviously do not live in urban areas, or even heavily populated areas. The "confusion," if it was really that and not just your obstinance, was that when some of us mentioned the prevalence of security cameras and mall searches, you brushed it off as if we must somehow be mistaken, because you don't have cameras posted on the trees out there in the woods of Oregon (don't take that literally, I know you didn't actually say "trees.&quot . Same it my town, but I wasn't specifically or exclusively talking about MY town. Just as bupkus never specifically mentioned your home town, because none of us know what your home town is.

But most people, I am certain, understand the more general nature of the comments being made -- the Security State is growing rapidly, and yet, how much more secure are we when someone can get their hands on so much weapons and ammo, rig an apartment building to explode, and kill and hurt so many people and the Security State didn't have a clue it was happening? That's the point. Not whether the owls in your trees actually have cameras for eyes.

[Atypical Liberal]

19. The shooter obeyed all the laws.

He purchased all of this tools of mayhem legally. He underwent background checks for the firearms he purchased.

[Atman]

31. I guess that is the argument for the changing the laws.

[Atypical Liberal]

61. But you were just complaining about all the security theater laws at the airport.

Now you want more security theater laws for guns?

[Atman]

63. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Security theater laws? No, I spoke of the Security State. And I don't see why someone purchasing an arsenal of guns should not be thoroughly vetted, but that I have to get a pat-down and back search to enter a church in NYC.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if we did reasonable and thorough background checks on gun users, that we wouldn't have to scan people going into malls, or keeping a slew of cameras on them as they walk down a city street? Why does this one "right" in the 2d trump everyone else's right to assembly and to be free? Unless, of course, you're going to a public Tea Bag assembly -- THEN you can carry a gun. It's reached a point of insanity. But money is free speech...and I guess if you're holding the gun, you've got a lot of free speech, too.

[Eddie Haskell]

25. Where does an unemployed med student get the money?

That arsenal had to cost big bucks.

[mountain grammy]

28. All the sadness is misplaced, time to get angry!

The media tells us over and over we can't prevent a crazy person from shooting up anything, but Bloomberg and other American mayors have a different take. Common sense gun regulation would be one effective method of prevention, but wait, the KKK, oops, the NRA, has plenty to say about that, and they sure have the money to say it. With 4 million members the NRA has an annual revenue of over $200 million.. lots of free speech there.. huh?

[Comrade_McKenzie]

41. Because when you watch everyone, you're really watching no one. nt

[Lex]

43. The news said he bought a lot of his arsenal online from a place called "bulk ammo. com"

So there's a place on-line called that, but I can fly with only a tiny bottle of shampoo for security reasons.

[Gregorian]

47. I never thought safety had anything to do with it.

I mean, it's just like health care. Or the drug war. Alcohol and nicotine are poison. Cannabis is not. War is death. Health care for all would be the route to a safer life for all of us.

It's so pathetic I have literally laughed at times.

[avaistheone1]

52. Still don't understand how he was able to get into the theater fully dressed up in a gas mask, camo,

heavy bullet-proof vest and lots of weapons and go unnoticed. How did he get in the door?
I have read close to a dozen articles and I still don't understand how he got so far without someone immediately calling security and the police.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

54. He went in dressed normally

Went out an exit, propped or somehow kept the exit open, went to his car, put on his body armor, got his weapons, then re-entered through the exit.

[avaistheone1]

56. Thanks SickOfTheOnePct. Well then this is more evidence he certainly planned this carnage.

[Atman]

58. Have you ever had someone open the exit door during a movie?

Even a midnight movie. The parking lot is lit up, the bright safety lights are lit up over the door (after all, this is the "emergency" exit) -- it's like when your spouse turns on a light to read at 2:00 am...it may be a 25 watt bulb, but in that environment it is glaringly obviously. I'm not saying it didn't happen...I just can't imagine how someone could prop open an exit door in a darkened movie theater and no one noticed or did a damned thing. It's just baffling to me. Honestly, if I had just paid $12 buck to see a movie and some prick opened the exit door (they are always at the base of the theater, close to the screen -- couldn't have missed it), then I would have gotten up from my seat and closed it. In the time it must have taken this guy to put on all that gear, SOMEONE must have noticed an emergency door was open. Including the theater personnel.

.

[avaistheone1]

59. True. I am surprised that someone didn't shut it either, or that a number of people didn't start

booing or yelling for an usher to shut it. There was a lot of folks who were anxiously anticipating this movie. I am surprised they wouldn't have noticed someone propping the door as well. Good points.

[kestrel91316]

57. WTF? I have never heard of anyone being searched at a mall.

[Atman]

60. It's not unusual, as others have pointed out.

Remember the big shooting at the Galleria, or whatever it was in California? A couple of years ago? After that, malls were taken as a "serious" terrorist threat. Lots of civilians in an enclosed are. You may live in a nice suburban area, but this is not at all unusual in Metro area malls. Taking it one step further...I visited St. Patrrick's Catherdal in NYC a couple of months ago...had to go through metal detectors, and everyone's bags were searched. THIS WAS A CHURCH.

To reiterate...I live in farm country in Eastern Connecticut. But that also means I am in easy distance to NYC and Boston. So we frequently wander from our cloistered environs and enjoy all the fun stuff the big city has to offer (Hartford is only 40 minutes away, but there is little reason to go there). Believe me, the surveillance in heavy. I would guess that Boston and NYC were big recipients of Homeland Security grants, given their roles in the 9/11 incidents. But it's been little different in other cities and even smaller areas I've visited, from Orlando to ski slopes in Vermont. If you haven't noticed the cameras or been subjected to search, it is by design. The cameras are usually hidden or in places your eye wouldn't usually wander. But look around the parking garage next time you visit a mall. I'd be AMAZED if there weren't many security cameras up in the rafters. As for searches in mall, as I posted before, this is more often in urban area or high-traffic, high-profile shopping centers. There is one near me that literally has metal detectors and a guard at each entrance, and he can stop anybody and ask to search your stuff BEFORE entering. Needless to say, I do not go that mall anymore.

.

[kestrel91316]

62. I rarely go to malls anymore so maybe that's why. They do have those

anti-shoplifting tag detectors at the big anchor store doors, but they have nothing to do with detecting weapons on folks entering.