Snowden in talks on returning to U.S., Russian lawyer says

[hack89]

Source: Globe and Mail

A Russian lawyer for Edward Snowden said on Tuesday the fugitive former U.S. spy agency contractor who leaked details of the government’s mass surveillance programs was working with American and German lawyers to return home.

Anatoly Kucherena, who has links to the Kremlin, was speaking at a news conference to present a book he has written about his client. Moscow granted Snowden asylum in 2013, straining already tense ties with Washington.

The United States wants Snowden to stand trial for leaking extensive secrets of electronic surveillance programs by the National Security Agency. Russia has repeatedly refused to extradite him.

Snowden has said in the past he would like to return home if he was assured he would be given a fair trial.

Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/snowden-in-talks-on-returning-to-us-russian-lawyer-says/article23261304/

---

I can certainly understand why living in Russia would wear thin.

[candelista]

1. I hope he doesn't do it.

He will never get a "fair trial" in the USA.

[hack89]

2. On the other hand, being a bargaining chip for Putin is not necessarily a good thing to be

Putin will give up Snowden in a heart beat if it serves his interests.

I suspect Snowden sees the writing on the wall and is trying to get the best deal possible while he still has some degree of control.

[geek tragedy]

4. He's a prisoner with extended privileges right now. nt

[candelista]

55. Oh, sure. Living in an embassy is just like federal prison. :)

You don't know much, do you?

[treestar]

60. That is Julian, not Eddie.

Don't know where Eddie lives, but he's not trapped in an embassy.

[candelista]

62. You got me.

I "conflated" the two. Just a Brian Williams moment.

[JackRiddler]

85. Snowden's not in an embassy, he's in Moscow.

That's Assange.

[karynnj]

27. A "fair trial" or a fair trial under the law as, in their opinion, it should

Last edited Tue Mar 3, 2015, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not sure what the quotes are intended to mean. I think the question that has been raised in the past is that "the public should know" is not considered relevant.

I am not a lawyer, but from what I have read, the charges would be that he intentionally leaked classified information - and that he had consented to keeping classified information classified when he accepted his jobs.

From articles back in 2012, people argued that he should be able to raise his motive as a reason to not be found guilty -- but that the legal code did not allow that. Apparently, the law is - don't release classified info -- and he is completely on record that he knowingly and intentionally did so. If that is an accurate statement of the law -- other than via jury nullification (where the jury ignores the law) -- this seems a pretty clear cut case.

I know that transparency advocates think that what should be on trial is whether the government should have the right to keep those things secret. However, I doubt many people think that everyone with secret information has the right to consider whether - for whatever reasons - he should make it public.

Snowden bypassed any whistleblower options, he did not chose to go to a Congressperson he trusted who had clearance and - in addition to speaking of the NSA data collection, which was already publicly known and was a key area of discussion when Dodd in 2007 led a filibuster to try to stop the then new FISA law that made the previously illegal collection legal and gave retrospective immunity to the telecos, he put out documents that embarrassed the US, the UK and Australia - and maybe other countries -- greatly complicating the foreign policy of Obama.

It is hard then to argue that he should get a Presidential pardon!

[George II]

36. Excellent post - the bottom line is that, regardless of his motive and objective....

...he DID violate the law, and he admitted it.

[Feron]

71. Snowden learned from other whistleblowers..

who went through official channels and the issue went nowhere. Meanwhile the whistleblowers themselves were punished.

Futhermore, Obama's administration has been unprecedented in its hostility towards whistleblowers. So leaking the documents to newspapers was the only viable option he had.

It's similar to what Ellsberg did.

[randome]

72. Ellsberg revealed illegality. Snowden did not.

There's a big difference there. Soldiers and Vietnamese were being killed. There was no such emergency in Snowden's little world. Only an overwhelming urge to see himself as somehow important.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[PSPS]

84. Violations of the 4th amendment are no longer considered "illegality," I guess.

Our "constitutional scholar" president seems OK with it, and that's enough for the swooners.

[treestar]

86. Since he is the constitutional scholar are you're not

Maybe they are not illegal. You made that determination. Judges and constitutional scholars may make other determinations.

It's anti-intellectual not to at least question yourself if a known scholar of a subject disagrees with you.

[treestar]

59. Are you accusing potential jurors of being authoritarian apologists?

Comrade Eddie's fans would be in the jury pool too. Don't see how it's a problem.

[Feron]

74. Well there are authoritarian apologists on a...

so-called progressive messageboard. So why is it so hard to believe that finding an impartial jury will be extraordinarily difficult?

People who think nothing of killing Americans abroad without due process, putting an iron boot on the necks of whistleblowers, and condoning mass warrantless surveillance as long as their guy does it aren't uncommon to find.

And 'Comrade Eddie'? Really?!

Because a lot of the butthurt here is that some ppl put Obama on a pedestal and are more upset at any perceived slight at him than any actual wrongdoing in government.

And these people are presumably adults. That's fucked up.

Mass surveillance is also fucked up and needs to be stopped.

Unless you're part of the Big Club, then it's foolish to expect fairness.

[treestar]

75. OK so you are going to go that far

Even a jury won't be fair to Comrade Eddie.

That's a lot of paranoia on his behalf. I bet he himself doesn't believe it.

[Man from Pickens]

3. Can't see why

It's quite predictable that he will be jailed and tortured (and probably murdered afterwards) if he returns, it would be insane for him to do so, even with a guarantee of amnesty.

[geek tragedy]

5. Who would torture him if he returned to US soil? nt

[Man from Pickens]

7. Take your pick

torture and assassination are official policy

[hack89]

8. So you have actual examples of American citizens being tortured in Federal prisons

as part of an officially sanctioned policy? Really?

[Man from Pickens]

10. we have examples in domestic prisons

and the veterans of those domestic torture centers got hired by the feds

there's no ground to stand on in denying that torture is American policy - the specifics being classified and withheld from the public makes no difference

[hack89]

12. Time to pony up some details

remember - torture due to officially sanctioned programs.

[Stryst]

23. Well, I guess the normal

beatings and rapes that happen in prison aren't officially sanctioned, so it doesn't count.

[hack89]

25. If he ends up in a Supermax like most spies then that is not a problem. nt

[geek tragedy]

14. torture is illegal, not official policy. It does happen because there are people

willing to break the law.

You seem quite sure of a lot of stuff that is plainly untrue.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. These human rights organizations seem to differ with you:

http://www.afsc.org/document/torture-us-prisons

"Torture in U.S. prisons: Evidence of U.S. human rights violations"

http://ccrjustice.org/solitary-factsheet

"Torture: The Use of Solitary Confinement"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/

"USA: Prisoners held in extreme solitary confinement in breach of international law"

[George II]

44. In other words you don't have any examples

[Comrade Grumpy]

48. You're kidding, right?

http://www.afsc.org/document/torture-us-prisons

"Torture in U.S. prisons: Evidence of U.S. human rights violations"

http://ccrjustice.org/solitary-factsheet

"Torture: The Use of Solitary Confinement"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/

"USA: Prisoners held in extreme solitary confinement in breach of international law"

That's a start for you.

[hack89]

54. So Snowden will not be treated any different than the average prisoner?

honest point and one that I agree with. I think US prisons are barbaric and solitary confinement should be banned as a routine punishment.

I guess when I heard torture I was thinking of "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

[tblue37]

57. Chelsea Manning.

I believe that the way Chelsea Manning was treated for quite some time after being imprisoned amounts to torture. It wasn't as brutal as some forms of torture we've read about, but it did cross the line into torture.

[karynnj]

50. Really --- maybe in Russia

Your posts are getting to Alex Jones territory.

[riderinthestorm]

24. Chelsea Manning and Jose Padilla were tortured. So were the folks at Guantanamo.

Those are the ones we know. There are certainly many, many more we don't know about.

[geek tragedy]

26. Who would torture him if he returned to

the US?

[riderinthestorm]

51. Go ahead and take your pick of candidates!

Yes sir, we have torturers in the Army, the CIA, the military brigs, black holes like the one Jose Padilla found himself in, rendition sites, prisons, police interrogation rooms... etc etc.

Come on, you're not this naive. Or maybe you haven't heard? The US has been discovered to have been torturing prisoners. Innocent ones. For many, many years. Heck, even President Obama makes unilateral decisions to kill American citizens without trial, children even or maybe you didn't hear about that 16 yr old American boy we droned to death? What's a little torture in comparison to, say, death when you get right down to it.

[hack89]

30. Chelsea Manning's treatment significantly improved after a short period

when she was move from the brig to Leavenworth. Her treatment had more to do with where she was rather than who she was.

[riderinthestorm]

47. Oh FFS, that's ridiculous and you know it. Go ahead and rationalize it away

Disgusting.

[hack89]

53. Her treatment was unacceptable

but it ended quickly when she was moved. She was not tortured for the vast majority of her imprisonment. She was not tortured after her conviction. So if her treatment is any indication, Snowden will not be tortured.

[riderinthestorm]

56. She was moved because Amnesty International finally applied pressure

And that was only because she had the ability to get the information out to the public about her treatment. Once the public was alerted to what was going on, it stopped. Do you really think however that Snowden will have the ability to contact the public? Really?

Jose Padilla wasn't nearly as fortunate in his ability to attract attention and is now virtually a vegetable because of his torture.

We don't even know the full details of what's happened at Guantanamo, or the rendition sites.

You're way more trusting of the deep state government than I am (and Snowden obviously).

[George II]

37. Can you cite a single recent case that makes this "quite predictable" that he'll be tortured and....

PROBABLY murdered?

[Man from Pickens]

42. of course I can

let me whip out my cache of super-secret highly classified documents

[randome]

46. The thing is, Snowden, for all his desire to be important, simply is not.

Yes, he stole secret documents, fled the country, gave information to foreign nationals and has regularly excoriated the country of his birth.

So what? None of what he's released has been that earth-shattering. Annoying, yes, but do you really think Obama or anyone else is so embarrassed by what Snowden did that they want him killed? He's superfluous.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else. It's only fair.[/center][/font][hr]

[Comrade Grumpy]

49. Yeah, he's so superflous they just want to bury him in Supermax for life.

[treestar]

63. No, the statutes he is charged under don't provide for life imprisonment

Each one was 10 years at most, and most people don't get the maximum.

[Comrade Grumpy]

73. Well, that's reassuring. Only 10 years per count. How many counts?

Do you think federal judges and prosecutors are going to treat Snowden like "most people?"

[treestar]

76. Pretty much

Now I've seen upthread that that jury pool won't be fair to him. Now all of the judges are unfair too? No one is going to apply the law they normally would, including all judges and citizens, because they hate Comrade Eddie that much?

Hell most jurors probably have never heard of him. He can keep it out of evidence that he went to Russia.

[George II]

6. Worn thin, and I'm sure he's worn out his welcome over there too...

....but what puzzles me is that the man blatantly violated the law, admitted that he did it, fled the country, and now he's "in talks" to return? WTF?

[hack89]

9. I bet he is trying to cut a deal to reduce his prison time

by cooperating with US intelligence agencies. I suspect he has some information they would like to get.

Of course, if the Russian intelligence services suspect that, then Comrade Eddy might suffer an unfortunate accident. He is in a tough spot.

[geek tragedy]

16. Catch Me If You Can II?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale

[randome]

17. He could get the Nemtsov treatment.

And then Putin would have his hands full with yet another investigation!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[George II]

31. I was about to say something similar - I'll bet it has given Eddie something to think about....

...murder victim in Moscow (since he's probably no longer useful to them) or trial in Washington?

[treestar]

61. And DU would have a contingent claiming the CIA did it

They are running around Moscow too, you know!

[riderinthestorm]

64. You don't think there's any CIA personnel is in Moscow right now?

Really?

[treestar]

78. Of course there are.

And if anything happened to Eddie, of course you will blame them? It'll have to be them if anything happens to him in Russia, right?

[riderinthestorm]

83. What exactly does Putin stand to gain by killing Snowden? Cui Bono?

Although I'll say upfront we'll never probably know who did it (if it happens at all).

[blackspade]

21. Just like government officials here blatantly violated the law and admitted that they did it....

But are serving no time, are under no indictment, and have never been charged?

At least he is trying to come home to face the authoritarian music that is playing only one tune: A Predetermined Outcome.

[Android3.14]

11. I don't see how he can have a fair trial

Besides, it is the NSA that should be on trial.

[hack89]

15. I suspect he will plea bargain

using his information about foreign intelligence services and Wikileaks as a bartering chip.

[George II]

32. The thing is if he has the information, the US government has it too - remember he..

...stole it from the US government.

[hack89]

34. I was referring to his contacts with foreign intelligence services after the leaks

I personally think that Snowden payed a high price to get out of Hong Kong and into Russia. They would also want as much info on Wikileaks as possible.

[George II]

38. I see what you mean.

[blackspade]

18. No kidding.

[blackspade]

13. I would want to get the hell out of Russia too if I were him.

[hack89]

19. I bet Wikileaks is getting nervous

everything he knows about them might be the price of either a fair trial or a lenient plea bargain.

[randome]

20. What could he possibly know? Laura Poitras' birthmarks?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else. It's only fair.[/center][/font][hr]

[hack89]

22. Good question

I am sure he has something to sell for his skin. He is a very smart man.

[blackspade]

29. Why would Wikileaks get nervous?

And why should he have to bargin for a fair trial?
Isn't that the point of the justice system? Oh right, not when it comes to whisleblowers....

[hack89]

33. He will bargain for a lenient sentence

perhaps Wikileaks has no reason to be nervous - they could have been infiltrated by now. But they pride themselves on their confidential and secure communications. You would have to think that Snowden might have something of interest for the CIA and NSA. For his sake I hope he does.

[blackspade]

68. And why would we want to infiltrate Wikileaks?

Because the CIA/NSA has to have their tentacles into everything?
I think that they have conclusively proved that they are unfit to do their jobs.

So you hope for his sake that he does? So that will be the only way that he will get a fair trial?

[Tarheel_Dem]

28. With the world feeling as it does about Russia right now, especially the West, he probably won't....

get what he deems "a fair trial". I say he's Russian now, let 'em keep him. It must really suck to be stuck under Moscow, while his puppet masters are sipping champagne with movie stars.

[Cha]

35. The last I read here on DU was that Snowden was so happy in Russia.. everything was rosy.. so what

happened?

Was that Russian Propaganda?

[George II]

39. What happened? Boris Nemtsov.

[Cha]

41. Why would Snowden care? He's Putin's golden boy.. And, Snowden's Bullshit statement on human

rights in Russia.. Bullshit bullshit Bullshit.. he's full of it.

"Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders."

https://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

[iandhr]

43. I think that poster was being sarcastic

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. Oh, Comrade Edward Snowden!

[joanbarnes]

45. I fear for him. Too bad he's better off in Russia, but US has ways of making people disappear too...

[treestar]

58. Yes it would, and eventually he would get no attention

This is a good move to be in the news again! He can play the victim to the hilt this way.

[Cryptoad]

65. Come HOme Comrade,,,,, your warrants await you!

[Blue_Tires]

66. I thought he was happy over there?

And I thought Greenwald/Wheeler/whoever said last year Kucherena no longer officially speaks for Snowden?

[randome]

67. I don't think he's real, myself.

He's a computer-generated virtual intelligence paraded on our screens to keep us occupied while Obama quietly executes all non-believers.

Haven't you noticed traffic is thinning out lately? Where are all the people???
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

79. That Obama!

There seems to be no end to his evil cleverness!!!!

[riderinthestorm]

69. Turns out this isn't true.

by Kia Makarechi

Reports on Tuesday that Edward Snowden is in talks to return to the United States are exaggerated, the N.S.A. whistleblower’s top American lawyer told VF.com.

Speaking at a conference in Moscow, Snowden’s lawyer in Russia, Anatoly Kucherena, said legal teams in Russia, Germany, and the United States are “doing everything possible now to solve this issue .”

While Kucherena's comments received considerable pickup, Snowden’s representatives have long maintained both that the N.S.A. whistleblower wants to return to the United States, and that he will not do so under the threat of unfair prosecution.

“This is much ado about nothing,” Ben Wizner, the director of the A.C.L.U.’s Speech, Privacy & Technology Project and Snowden’s head legal counsel in the United States, told VF.com in an e-mail. “Just Russian lawyer paraphrasing what has always said: that he would return to the U.S. if a fair trial were available.”

Snowden’s wishes don't exactly mesh with the current political climate in the United States, and he does not have immediate plans to return home. The Obama administration has not indicated that it would pardon the felonies Snowden is charged with.

more...

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/03/snowden-talks-to-return-us

[randome]

70. {Sigh}.

"...the current political climate..." Um, when does he think that's going to change? No President of any nation is going to let national security documents be stolen without there being some consequences.

Oh, well, headed soon for Snowden-Year 3.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Thinkingabout]

77. Maybe Snowden has found what Putin does with used patsies.

No problem, just remove them from existing.

[msanthrope]

80. Don't walk in front of the Kremlin, Comrade Eddie. nt

[elias49]

82. Oh good grief!

Be a fucking man! Man up! Go to prison you baby. Hey, you only live once. Why not spend a couple of decades in a supermax prison. Friggin pussy.

Some people...holy shit!

[truebrit71]

87. Right?

Misogynistic and stupid in the same post. Glad it got hidden.

[Blue_Tires]

88. What goes unanswered is

Is the Russian government a "party" in these "talks"? Because Snowden isn't leaving without their approval, unless he pulls an "Assange" and runs to one of the embassies...