Terrorist kills two, wounds toddler and mother in capital's Old City
Last edited Sun Oct 4, 2015, 04:15 AM - Edit history (1)
Source: J Post
A Palestinian terrorist murdered two Jewish men and wounded a mother and son in the Old City of Jerusalem in a Saturday stabbing and shooting spree, before he was shot dead by police.
The victims were Rabbi Nehemia Lavie, 41, an Old City resident who worked at the Ateret Cohanim Yeshiva, near the place he was killed, and Aharon Benita from Beitar Illit.
The toddler’s mother, 22, was in critical condition.
The incident began around 7:30 p.m., when the knife-wielding Arab attacked the couple and their toddler son, as well as Lavie, as they walked past Lion’s Gate, en route to the Western Wall, police said.
A fifth male victim, in his 20s, was lightly wounded.
Read more: http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-goes-on-stabbing-spree-in-Jerusalems-Old-City-wounds-4-419847
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Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
geomon666
(7,512 posts)So probably never.
7962
(11,841 posts)as official policy. But that will never happen either.
Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)the violence before 1967 would be......what?
geomon666
(7,512 posts)Israel is occupying land that doesn't belong to them. They need to leave.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Netanyahu's brother was killed at Entebbe. There is a long trail of revenge that has to stop on both sides.
Operation Entebbe was a counter-terrorist hostage-rescue mission carried out by commandos of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) at Entebbe Airport in Uganda on 4 July 1976.[6] A week earlier, on 27 June, an Air France plane with 248 passengers was hijacked by hijackers from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – External Operations (PFLP-EO) under orders of Wadie Haddad, who had earlier broken away from the mainstream PFLP of George Habash.[7] The PFLP-EO hijackers consisted of two Palestinians and two members of the German Revolutionary Cells. The hijackers had the stated objective to free 40 Palestinian and pro-Palestinian militants imprisoned in Israel and 13 prisoners in four other countries in exchange for the hostages.[8] The flight, that had originated in Tel Aviv with destination of Paris, was diverted after a stopover in Athens via Benghazi to Entebbe, the main airport of Uganda. The local government supported the hijackers and dictator Idi Amin personally welcomed them. After moving all hostages from the airplane to a disused airport building, the hijackers separated all Israelis from the larger group and forced them into a separate room.[9][10][11] Over the following two days, 148 non-Israeli hostages were released and flown out to Paris.[10][11][12] Some 94 mainly Israeli passengers, along with the 12-member Air France crew, remained as hostages and were threatened with death.[13][14]
The IDF acted on intelligence provided by the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad. The hijackers threatened to kill the hostages if their prisoner release demands were not met. This threat led to the planning of the rescue operation.[15] These plans included preparation for armed resistance from Ugandan military troops.[16]
The operation took place at night. Israeli transport planes carried 100 commandos over 2,500 miles (4,000 km) to Uganda for the rescue operation. The operation, which took a week of planning, lasted 90 minutes. 102 hostages were rescued. Five Israeli commandos were wounded and one, the unit commander, Lt. Col. Yonatan Netanyahu, was killed. All the hijackers, three hostages and 45 Ugandan soldiers were killed, and thirty (some say 11[4][5]) Soviet-built MiG-17s and MiG-21s of Uganda's air force were destroyed.[3] Kenyan sources supported Israel, and in the aftermath of the operation Idi Amin issued orders to retaliate and slaughter several hundred Kenyans present in Uganda.[17]
Operation Entebbe, which had the military codename Operation Thunderbolt, is sometimes referred to retroactively as Operation Jonathan in memory of the unit's leader, Yonatan Netanyahu. He was the older brother of Benjamin Netanyahu, the current Prime Minister of Israel.[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe
I hope that we don't wait until it is too late, because that situation is really dangerous for the whole world -- as we see in neighboring Syria.
geomon666
(7,512 posts)Even more reason to pull out of the occupied territories and then they can work on overcoming the past, dealing with the present, and building a future.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)without receiving at least recognition of Israel's right to exist in agreed territory. If Israel gives in and moves out of the occupied areas, then the Palestinians will as they have in the past take it as a sign of weakness and begin more attacks on Israelis.
It's a very difficult situation.
Israel is a strong democratic society. Palestine is still very much working on establishing a decent government that is supported by the people and that would have the authority to say put an end to the terrorist attacks and the building of tunnels and other acts of aggression of its people.
The occupation of the contested territories is a rather obvious act. The numerous terror attacks and the tactics of intimidation that Palestinians have been using for decades is not as often reported but just as frightening to the Israelis.
It is impossible to determine which if either side really wants peace at this point. But I think that Israel has a lot to lose in a war. Palestinians seem to be resigned to losing and do desperate but very violent things that we don't hear about as much.
It's tit for tat in my view. Both sides need to understand what they would gain if they lived in peace with each other. At this point each side thinks it will win more if it fights -- either open war -- or resistance to reality.
geomon666
(7,512 posts)It is a very difficult situation. It would be nice if an understanding could be reached.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Remember. The Irish were completely dominated, cruelly so, by the English for centuries. Peace was finally achieved.
The European countries, France and Germany, for example had many long wars but are now a union.
So maybe it will just take a long time.
Saudi Arabia and Iran are countries that support their friends and don't always work toward peace in the area. That has little or nothing to do with Israel, But Israel is not the only sore spot in the Middle East. It gets a lot of hate directed at it, but actually is relatively peaceful and harmless when compared to some others in the neighborhood. And when compared to the divisions in areas that we view as countries but that are terribly divided by religion, ethnicity and history.
The entire area and not just Palestine and Israel is quite a tangle of wars and intrigue.
What is going on in Yemen is confusing to me but horrible.
Then there are Syria, Libya, even Egypt. The list is long. We can't say that about a lot of its neighbors in the Middle East.
Israel gets an undue amount of attention. At least internally it is stable. T
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)doesn't get to dictate terms. And your apparent disregard for dead Israeli's is so very touching, I don't think I'll ever forget it.
geomon666
(7,512 posts)In fact, I distinctly recall me wishing to end the violence, so that there aren't any more dead people.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I am referring to the tunnels through Egypt, where everything from food to weapons and oil went through. The Palestinian people had to pay high prices for these goods, and the tunnels made some Palestinian leaders rich, worth billion$. Meanwhile, their people were living without the basics of water, sanitation, and other necessities.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Everyone will have to learn how to share.
The Lions Gate (Sha'ar Ha'Arayot) is one of the eight gates set in the wall of the Old City of Jerusalem.
The gate was built between 1538 to 1539 with the renovation and construction of the old city walls by the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Legend has it that the statues were placed there because Sultan Suleiman dreamed that if he would not build a wall around Jerusalem to protect the citizens, he would be eaten by lions. But while the dream spoke of lions, cheetahs, which were previously the symbol of the Mamluk Sultan Al Daher – Beavers who ruled from 1223 to 1277, were actually fixed in place at the head of the gate.
Other names of the gate are:
Gate of Jehoshaphat, because the road to the Valley of Jehoshaphat in the Kidron Stream started at the gate.
Gate Mount of Olives, because of it being in front of the Mount of Olives.
St. Stephen's Gate, named after a Christian saint who was taken through the gate and was stoned nearby.
Mary Our Lady Gate, named after Mary, the mother of Jesus who was born nearby the gate.
Gate of Jericho, because of the road to Jericho that starts at this gate.
Gate of the Tribes, in the name of the tribes of Israel
During the battle for Jerusalem during the Six Day War on June 7, 1967, the Paratrooper Brigade of the Israel Defense Forces entered through the Lions Gate on their way to the Western Wall - a relic from the Temple and the holiest place for Jews today. It was the first time in history that an army entered Jerusalem from the east.
Near the gate, on the outside, is a Muslim cemetery.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)
sarisataka
(18,633 posts)
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Those killed were by stabbing, not by being shot.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)not as long as you hate each other more than you care about your kids
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Interestingly, the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" occurs 19 times in in a 1000-word article--with numbers like that, one might almost conclude that this was written by an American newspaper.
And we also have the unattributed claim that Hamas praised the murderer as a hero. I'd like to see the source for that statement.
If this story makes big news in the US, will they also call the killer a terrorist? Do they generally call the Oregon shooter a terrorist?
What do they call the military personnel who bombed the hospital?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)You know them by their deeds.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)57[font color="white"]XXXXX[/font]the
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Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Cool tool for parsing.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)I copied-and-pasted into Word, then swapped "space" characters for hard-returns, deleted punctuation, sorted alphabetically and ran it through Excel to subtotal by word. Add a little manual tweaking to combine words ("terrorism/terrorist/terrorists"
and voila!
Kind of a nuts-and-bolts way to do it, but it served the purpose.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack, while Hamas issued a statement praising the “heroic operation.”
“Halabi is a member of Islamic Jihad,” a senior member of the Palestinian terror group told AFP on condition of anonymity, after the group issued a statement hailing the attack and saying it was in response to Israeli “terrorist crimes” against Palestinians.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-man-killed-3-injured-in-jerusalem-stabbing-attack/
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Until we have a named source or Hamas issues a formal statement supporting the murderer, it's pure hearsay. I'd even be comfortable calling it a complete fabrication by an experienced and well-organized propaganda machine, especially in light of the preposterous overuse of use the term "terrorism" in the article.
7962
(11,841 posts)They regularly praise these attacks and have done so recently.
Can you show me ANY instance where they have condemned one or denied making a statement? No, you cant.
It amazes me how people here on DU will default to side with groups calling for the extermination of an entire country.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Then you're spreading hearsay.
Did they praise those previous ones? Formally? On the record? Links, please. Otherwise you're spreading hearsay.
7962
(11,841 posts)3 different news sources say Hamas praised the attack. Its early on, I imagine there will be more news as time moves on. Israel has always condemned attacks on palestinian civilians by their citizens and arrests them. Plenty of stories on that. Palestinians cheer the attacks on Israeli civilians all the time. It happens ALL the time. But you want to give them a pass this time because you havent seen anything "official" yet?
Hamas & the rest of the terror groups commonly use civilians as shields. They fire rockets from hospitals, schools, neighborhoods, etc. It happens ALL THE TIME. And Israel screws up sometimes. Thats the way it goes in war. Thats why I say Russia will have more success against ISIS than we have; because they dont care much about civilian casualties.
No palestinian civilians would be killed if they would renounce Hamas and terror and stop firing rockets into Israel pretty much ALL the time. But they wont do that. Instead, they preach for the destruction of all of Israel.
You'd think after all these years they'd know they're backing a losing proposition. Until they change, Israel will always prevail.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)If you think that the nation of Israel is civilized in its occupation, relocation, and subjugation of Palestinians, then you are beyond help, and there is no value in further discussion.
Exactly how many Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire in the past 20 years? I'm willing to bet that it's far lower than the number of Palestinian civilians murdered by Israel's military in the past year alone.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to defend islamic jihad terrorists is pretty fucking sickening as is your trying so very hard to pretend that hamas doesn't glorify violence every fucking day.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Jews.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)My chief suspicion arises from the fact that a rightwing publication is uncritically quoted on this fine progressive site of ours, and we see "terrorism/ist/ists" mentioned 19 times in a 960-word article, an almost Rumsfeld-worthy frequency. If that doesn't smell to you like obvious propaganda, then I don't know what to tell you.
The murderer's acts are horrible. Are they terrorism? Very possibly, but I'm not as eager as you are to assume outright that they are until further facts are objectively verified. But whether they're terrorism or not, these murders are every bit as indefensible as Israel's coordinated bombing of civilian targets.
onenote
(42,700 posts)Additional information:
The group Islamic Jihad said in a statement: “We bless this operation in Jerusalem and confirm that Israel is paying the price of its aggressive occupation and the resistance will continue and increase.”
Hussam Badran, a spokesman for Hamas, said the attack “confirms that the Palestinians would not surrender” to Israeli actions at the holy sites .
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2015/10/03/palestinian-kills-israelis-jerusalem/jS1A0W66NSuu1eZ7VGDmLJ/story.html
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Since that was not offered in the OP, and since I was replying to the OP, my response was justified.
Well, Hussam Badran can go fuck himself. Scoring political points on the blood of innocent civilians is always inexcusable.
Is "Islamic Jihad" directly affiliated with Hamas? If not, then I don't see how their quote supports the original contention that Hamas praised the attack. It just means that they can go fuck themselves, too, and for the same reason.
7962
(11,841 posts)Full quote,
Hussam Badran, a spokesman for Hamas, said the attack “confirms that the Palestinians would not surrender” to Israeli actions at the holy sites .
As I said earlier, as more time passed these statements were going to come out
Orrex
(63,208 posts)I directly addressed it. How much more direct than "Hussam Badran can go fuck himself" do you need me to be?
7962
(11,841 posts)Those are your words still questioning if Hamas had made a comment on the attack, which was obvious by the quote in the post.
They're all the same anyway, who gives a shit which one or if all of them made a statement?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Palestinian militant organisation Hamas, which is dominant in Gaza, said "we bless the killing of settlers in the West Bank".
Spokesman Husam Badran said: "We call on our people in the West Bank to carry out more quality operations like the one today.
"This is the only solution which is supported by the masses of our people everywhere."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34417930
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Corrected.
Possession and exclusive use of the "terrorist" label is being claimed by white folk only and I dissent.
7962
(11,841 posts)Your other sentence makes no sense though
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 4, 2015, 09:29 AM - Edit history (1)
Some interesting issues.
The Oregon shooter
He had a menefesto
His friend on MySpace is a jihadist
He's not a white supremacist he's bi racial.
Someone mentioned the Americans who stopped the jihadist on the train in France attended the same school he attacked.
ISIS claimed credit for the atack.
He asked his victims his religion, shooting Christians in the head. Shooting others in the leg.
Tin hat time ...supposedly he was on a list of jihadist from the FSB. - Google it
I'm guessing he's lone wolf jihadi sympathizer nihilist. However that is bad optics at this time.
All of it is speculaton.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)With all that heavy speculating you have done and "facts" at your disposal you should write an OP.
Or one about the slaughter by American "terrorists" from the skies in Aghanistan?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)
I'll do it if a reputable news source picks it up.
7962
(11,841 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Orrex
(63,208 posts)Almost as bad as when an occupying power bombs civilian buildings under the alleged justification that they're protecting their interests.
What kind of a terrible nation would commit such atrocity? And what kind of a terrible nation would defend it before the UN Security Council?
7962
(11,841 posts)Hamas regularly sends civilians into these bldgs to use as human shields.
Here's a Hamas spokesman telling how effective this tactic is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=eQ6S0-o3uFI
Certainly Israel has killed civilians, just as the US has. But both go out of their way NOT to and dont do it intentionally, which is what Hamas, et al, do..
This is why Russia will be much more effective against ISIS than we've been. They dont care who they kill if they get their target. they fight the "old school" way; blow up whatever it takes to get the enemy.
But you've chosen to side with the terrorists & their tactics.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)The best you can say about this story about dead Jews, including wounded children, is calling it feeble resistance? No wonder the far left has zero credibility on this issue.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Most creative rationalization I've read this week. Though the week is yet early, I'm thinking this one will stand the test against the rest as they begin to arrive.
7962
(11,841 posts)
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)they'd stop supporting ISIS and al-Nusra Front in neighboring Syria. The largest and most aggressive terrorist group is actively trying to take over their neighboring country and Israel is assisting.
Israel's "terrorism" excuse to justify massacring Palestinians doesn't fly anymore and this shows it was simply a reason to take more land from Arabs.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)mentioned in a few media sources in the West, you'll find that Israeli soldiers have been seen and photographed assisting al-Nusra fighters in the Golan Heights, taking them to Israeli hospitals and sending them back out on the battlefield.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.666961
Our media has completely failed to inquire as to why Israel, of all nations in the Middle East whom you'd think would feel threatened by the advances of ISIS and other al-Qa'ida-linked groups, hasn't contributed anything at all to stopping them. Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador, all but said that Israel prefers al-Qa'ida (the people who supposedly attacked the US and killed 3000 people) over anything having to do with Assad or any Shias.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/israels-former-ambassador-to-the-us-on-the-palestinian-question/373627/
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Israel is not only supportive of ISIS, but are apparently assisting them as well.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Israel for giving medical treatment? Because that's all your first link says and now they've stopped because of complaints from the Druze community. But you go ahead and condemn them for being human. Your second link doesn't - in any way shape or form - back up your contention they are supporting isis. I mean IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)you can possibly make the argument that Israel is offering medical aid to Islamic extremists because the Israelis are just plain kind-hearted and concerned with the well-being of all human life. You know that's not true at all.
What Israeli assistance to the barbarians should tell you is that they, like the US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc., are so obsessed with removing Assad from power by force that they are willing to employ some of the most fanatical, unsavory elements from all over the globe in order to do it. This whole Western-based "war on terror" started by the Bush regime and his neocons was a farce and charade from day one, and all of these countries, including Israel, have been actively supporting ISIS and other radical Sunni groups to achieve their strategic objectives.
I'm sure you know that the CIA and other Western intelligence services has long been in the habit of employing (and I do mean "employing" Islamic radicals as a proxy force to achieve objectives they can't get the American public to support, and our media and elected officials frame these CIA-backed extremists as an "enemy" purely for domestic consumption. How do you think al-Qa'ida even came into existence in the first place?
Other than the occasional airstrikes on Assad's army in Syria (which is a violation of international law), why do you think Israel hasn't lifted one finger to help in the fight against ISIS?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)as they've done it before. That you want to stick your propaganda label on it is entirely your problem. Why should Israel fight on the side of al assad? I'm sure they're hoping both sides kill each other (as are most Americans). But your entire post is nothing but complete and utter bullshit in making Israel a stooge for Saudi Arabia (or is it the other way around? because that's how little sense your post makes)
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)for a long time, and I do believe they are quite fond of each other. I don't think either one is a stooge of the other but their interests coincide enough that they freely assist each other.
If it is widely known that Israel openly supports the idea of the head-chopping extremists taking over a country right next door to them, it would damage the dominant "war on terror" narrative (lie, rather) that the al-Qa'ida types are an existential threat to the Western world, and that would be bad for the military industrial complex and the various corporations and super-wealthy whose interests it supports. This is why no one in the Western media has questioned Israel's utter silence on the near-global confrontation taking place right next to them. In fact, the whole "war on terror" narrative is starting to fall apart at the seams and the lies told to garner public support for military intervention is looking shaky as hell.
I had to laugh at your claim that Israel was helping mend injured al-Nusra fighters out of kindness because we saw how caring Israel is last year when they were deliberately bombing hospitals, shelters and schools full of sick people, elderly people, children and innocent people trying to hide from "smart" bombs.
Israel has long hated the Assad clan and it would be ridiculous to think they would support Bashar. But it's all the more reason to believe they are helping the Islamic radicals and hoping they take over Syria (and we saw what these same, CIA/NATO-backed extremists did to Libya).
It's not really that difficult to see, leftynyc. I'm not criticizing Israel any more harshly than I criticize the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and all of the other countries who are telling the American public we're fighting crazy people whom our leaders are actually helping and rooting for.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)That Israel wants head chopping extremists next door? Well known by whom? Where is your evidence? You keep making these wild assed claims as if you're saying 2+2=4. You've offered nothing but bullshit proclamations and expect people to lap up the crap you're serving like ice cream. Frankly, I find it pretty fucking pathetic.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)himself saying that Israel prefers the ISIS crazies over Assad's secular government and you're still confused?
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "widely known" because not too many Americans seek out news outside of the standard American fare that passes as journalism, so maybe "widely known" was an exaggeration. There is a virtual blackout of most news that could potentially cast Israel in a negative light here in the US, so yeah, most people wouldn't even think to ask the question "Why is Israel being so quiet about what's going on in the Middle East?"
This information is "widely known" however by those of us who have been paying attention and asking the questions our leaders and media shy away from. You need to learn to draw your own conclusions from all the information you have at your disposal, and don't get snippy because it's not something you prefer to hear or think about.
If Israel was against the idea of having ISIS as neighbors, they would have probably contributed at least one damn bullet to stopping them, but that hasn't happened. What conclusion do you draw from that, if you can?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)between a tyrant and a terrorist group mean you're supporting one of the sides? There is NO blackout of news in the age of the internet so that argument is also complete bullshit. You seem to think al assad would just ring up bibi and ask for help with isis - just how delusional are you on this issue? Enough that you post complete, unsupported bullshit and expect people to believe it - that much is obvious.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)you can find any reference to Israel assisting al-Nusra fighters in any American media outlet I'd be surprised. It has been reported in various foreign sources which aren't similarly constrained and compromised. Again, it doesn't fit the prescribed "war on terror" that too many liberals/Democrats have bought into as much as the Republicans have.
Of course Assad isn't expecting anything but enmity and violence from Israel because that's the only thing they've ever had for each other. Israel repeatedly violates Syrian airspace, drops bombs, kills people, and leaves with no international condemnation and no significant retaliation from Syria.
Just face it, leftynyc. What I'm saying is 100% true and you're getting a little angry because you know that as well. And I'm not expecting you just to believe it because I said it, but I do expect a little inquiry on the part of people who are interested in what's happening.
you seem to think doctors helping patients who are bleeding in front of them is like giving them money or weapons. Just stop with the bullshit already. No - I don't have to face anything because anyone who wants to pretend al assad is anything but a murderous thug dictator who has lobbed hundreds of rockets into Israel (much less since the Israeli's took the Golan in yet another ridiculous war the Syrians thought they would win), can't be taken seriously about anything. Keep up your delusion that Americans are woefully uninformed and we need you to set us straight. And do keep up your delusion that Israel is the source of all the trouble in
the middle east. It'll make it that much easier to ignore you.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)and that's perfectly fine I guess. If you're so caught up it something that you can't step back, look at it and judge as would someone outside of your orbit then you're not going to accept anything contrary to what you want to believe. Facts don't matter to people like you.
I don't know if Israel is providing al-Nusra money and/or weapons, but they definitely view them as a welcome army on their doorstep. That you can't deny. Assad is and has been no angel, but he's a better option than the savages the Russians are bombing (you know, the ones Israel prefers).
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)of looking at a big picture. I detest Bibi and think he's been horrible for Israel. I also have a family member with nails embedded in her body from a terrorist attack. And yes, I can deny that israel is providing support for terrorists. That's easy to do when you can't provide one scintilla of evidence to back you up other than Israeli doctors did their fucking jobs. Perhaps al assad is better for the Syrian people (although that's very debatable) but neither he nor isis is good for Israelis. Pretending otherwise is delusional. So, yes, my preference in the neighborhood is for Israel. As a woman who has many gay friends, that's a no brainer.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)It's much harder to be objective about something when someone you know has been directly involved and negatively affected by something - I guess that's a human trait. I won't try to convince you that Israel is not all that you feel it is, but I will say that there is always a deeper story behind the ones we are given in the media and it wouldn't hurt to investigate. As it stands, I guess I'll keep my delusions and you can keep any of the ones you have.
Now I don't really understand the reference to gay friends and how that relates to Israel or your neighborhood - I'm from the Dirty South so it may be a reference I'm just not getting.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)into the conversation is just more reason for me to prefer Israel to any of her neighbors. As a woman, I know where I'd rather live. That's where I don't need a male neighbor to leave my house and wont get killed for holding hands with my boyfriend. My gay friends wouldn't get killed for who they love. Aint nothing delusional about all those honor killings or gays being thrown off buildings or are you pretending that doesn't happen?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)of the rights of women and gays in these majority Islamic countries because those are battles for the citizens of those countries to fight, not you or me. We can point out what we see as their cultural shortcomings, but they have to evolve their attitudes on their own.
It's not Israel's internal policies towards women and gays that is the problem.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)You're no better than those who claim we can't judge a different culture because we're all equal. That's bullshit. Western society IS superior to that and I have no problem saying that out loud and to anyone who asks. You want to judge Israel for her actions without touching those things that make you feel icky. That's your problem, not mine.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)Then it sounds like you're just a straight-up white supremacist then. I'm sure you also think every other society outside of Europe is degenerate, primitive, and filled with subhumans who are beneath people of European descent. Because we all know you guys are the pinnacle of human evolution, bringing all of us darker-skinned people out of the dark and leading into a glorious, Western-based future. Plus you're just naturally more intelligent and better endowed from your creator with better-working gray matter. Right?
Western society has been like a malignant cancer that spread around the globe bringing death and destruction everywhere it touched. It is filled with a bunch of people who are fearful of their global minority status, yet are obsessed with playing God and controlling everything they get their hands (even going so far as to create ways to blow up the only planet on which humanity can live). Western society is afraid of the rest of humanity and its behavior makes that obvious.
Do you think there are no Westerners who hate women and gays? Are you being that chauvinistic? Do you think women are oppressed in every majority Muslim country?
Wow.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)white surpremacist in a country where whites are quickly becoming a minority? Who said every society outside Europe (other than you). I have no problem with Chinese society, none with Japanese society - in fact all Asian societies that aren't Islamic, Australia is also fine. No, my hyperbolic pal, I save my scorn for Muslim society. There isn't one Muslim country I can live in freedom as a woman and as a Jew. That you can't admit that very simple fact if very much your own problem. And your hyperbole about my position just shows how dishonest you are.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)such as Libya under Gaddafi, Afghanistan before their government was destroyed by the CIA and Pakistani ISI's support of the Taliban during the our early days of using Islamic extremists (sound eerily familiar huh?), Saddam Hussein's government had significant freedoms for women, and the world's largest Muslim nation Indonesia (you probably don't like these types of Asians though) doesn't have the restrictions on women that our buddies Saudi Arabia does.
If you're not a white supremacist, then you are admittedly an Islamophobe, and there is not much difference between the mentality of those two categories. You are no better than the Muslims or neo-Nazis who hate Jews for no other reason than their Jewishness. You may be the Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens/Bill Maher type of liberal, but they are all racist to the core. If you can't distinguish between individuals and their practice of their religion, then it's you with the problem, not them. One hateful Jewish person doesn't mean all Jews are hateful, and that standard applies universally.
I find it interesting you omitted most of Asia, all of Africa and Latin America. I guess we darker-skinned people need to get to catching up to all the wonderful whites and the select few Asians you use as a battering ram to bash us with.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Afghanistan has been a clusterfuck with the taliban for over two decades, Pakistan is a shithole and I know this because we have a satellite office there and no, women can't walk around alone without some religious freaks beating the hell out of them (my colleagues are very honest about the situation - and are extremely embarrassed by it). Iraq is no more. I have no problem with people in the slightest - as long as they don't vote in religious freaks and don't want religious law. There is no such animal these days in the Muslim world. A hard truth but the truth nonetheless. That you consider me a bigot for stating what everyone already knows but are too pc to say doesn't touch me in the slightest. The problem is yours. So is your pathetic persecution complex.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)societies don't exist anymore because the West destroyed them, favoring the very type of Muslims that people like you hate. The US and Pakistan were always the biggest backers of the right-wing Taliban, favoring these types of people over the more secular ones who respected women's rights. The problem is within the Western mind and its tendency to want to dominate and control the lives of everyone in the world, particularly in the global south where all those good resources are. The West loves "religious freaks" of all religions, especially the religious Jewish freaks (which we call "settlers" who are nothing but racist, white supremacist scum shouting "Death to the Arabs!" as they push further eastward.
Stop sitting in New York thinking your own sh-t doesn't stink because you're only deceiving yourself. Your stereotyping of the entire Muslim world is disgusting and very Ann Coulterish. Sure you're not supposed to be on one of those right-wing websites instead of this one?
It's so freeking pathetic that you blame the US and Israel for all the problems in that neighborhood. That you consider the Muslims nothing but pitiful pawns of the west is so incredibly condescending I'm surprised you aren't embarrassed to try that argument. Where are the moderate Muslim leaders that, like a Martin Luther King, like a Gandhi, call for a peaceful end to the fighting? The last time we saw that was with Sadat (may he rest in peace). But you go ahead and treat them all like children who have no voice, no power - that will surely get them what you say they want. Any day now.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)are no doubt "pitiful pawns" because they are being used by an enemy to attack and kill their own people. There is nothing condescending about that because that's exactly what they are. There are plenty of Muslims condemning groups like ISIS and al-Qa'ida all the time, but people like you like to pretend they don't exist. It is the US, Israel, Turkey and Saudi Arabia who started the mess in Syria in the first by encouraging and supporting regime change there. It is the West and their Muslim allies who don't want peace, and it's a shame you're too biased to understand that.
A prime feature of racism/white supremacy is the reluctance (or refusal) to view those who are different from you as being individuals - it's easier and lazier to just say all Muslims are bad people. You have a problem.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)doesn't mean the VAST majority of Americans are under the ridiculous impression that Israel is supporting isis. Where is your proof of that statement?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...see this link.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1225239
If you Google this stuff, there will be many more articles to come up, but I included ones from sources that DUers might deem to be more credible.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)shows they gave medical attention to those who asked for it (hardly what you're claiming - that they are actively supporting the terrorists) and the second link has NOTHING that says Israel is supporting either terrorist group. Did you just expect everyone to take your word for it and not actually check the links? Because neither one backs you up in the slightest.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)is pretty much the strategic intention of the Israeli government, straight from one of the horses' mouth. If helping heal Islamic radicals and making sure they live to terrorize another day isn't considered support, then what is?
Israel wants ISIS to succeed because it is in their strategic interests. They don't fear ISIS because they know ISIS is not a threat to them - they know who is bankrolling ISIS, supplying them weapons, and making sure they keep gaining ground in Iraq and Syria.
Beyond medical assistance, there have also been reports that Israel is offering logistical support to the many terrorist groups looking to bring about regime change in Syria. Michael Oren would rather deal with these terrorists because he knows that Israel and the West are in control of them, they are compliant little stooges, and they'll go to fight anyone if they are paid enough money to do so. These ISIS fighters are loaded with Saudi and Qatari money.
If the US was really trying to destroy ISIS (which is what our elected officials have been saying publicly for years), then they would have sought to cut off funding and stifle their sell of oil on the black market, but that hasn't happened. Israel is just as much a part of ISIS as the US, Europe, and the Gulf State autocracies but Israel's hand in it is being kept very low-key.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)who would let someone bleed to death in front of them? Really? Do you think American doctors in Iraq just let Iraqis die? And spare me the "reports" that Israel is offering logistical support - you've offered ZERO, ZERO, ZERO evidence of that. You entire argument is nothing but bullshit but keep digging. It's fun watching you try and pull an actual argument out of your ass with ZERO evidence.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)sworn, existential enemies die right in front of them - the universality of the Hippocratic Oath depends very much on the situation at hand. There have been many doctors who've assisted state-sanctioned executions and they obviously have no problem witnessing someone die without stepping in. The Israelis have been helping al-Nusra because they want al-Nusra to win, plain and simple.
Why are you upset at the thought that Israel might actually be helping the Islamic fanatics? It seems very logical, believable and reasonable to me but I gather that possibility is something you don't even want to consider.
Does it offend you as a New Yorker that Israel, the US, the Saudis, etc., are offering aid to a group that attacked the US on 9/11? Shouldn't we all be offended and upset by that?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A senior Israel Defense Forces officer revealed Monday that Israel has stopped treating members of an extremist Syrian rebel group wounded in that country’s ongoing civil war. The policy change concerning the Al-Qaida-linked Nusra Front was made about six weeks ago.
According to the officer, a number of injured Nusra Front fighters had received medical treatment in Israel. The officer described those injured as having “infiltrated” into Israel to receive the treatment. However, the army’s background checks on the injured had not been thorough, he admitted. According to the officer, since the policy change the army has been checking the identity of everyone entering Israel for medical treatment.
The change took place a month after Israeli Druze ambushed wounded Syrian rebels being transported in IDF ambulances, killing one of the men. Five members of the Druze community were later arrested on suspicion of murder.
The officer responded to complaints voiced by some members of the Druze community in Israel that security forces are assisting the Al-Nusra Front, which executed over 20 Druze in a Syrian village last June.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.666961
wordpix
(18,652 posts)That poster doesn't believe in them. Just bullshit proclamations that are expected to be believed because, according to them, it's obvious. What's obvious isn't something that person would be happy knowing about themselves. Start with pretending that hamas doesn't regularly praise killing Jews (not just Israeli's, but Jews). Vomit.
Grins
(7,217 posts)
After stabbing five) The terrorist then took a pistol from one of his victims..."
The good guy with a gun? Israel's gun laws, despite the bullshit you read in those Reich-wing emails we all get, are ball busters. REALLY hard to get a gun. Might be fun to know who that guy was.
The only good sentence in that link is the last: "Only a diplomatic initiative can provide a long-term solution, Ben-Reuven said."
Will Bibi's response be negotiation and diplomacy with its neighbors? NY Times, April 2014:
Mr. Netanyahu refused to risk alienating Israel’s right wing by restraining construction in West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements; about 13,000 new units moved forward during the talks. Mr. Abbas, looking for a dignified exit from the public stage and furious over the settlement building, never responded to the ideas Mr. Kerry’s team had formulated for a framework to guide further negotiations.
Mr. Kerry condemned the construction, asking in a television interview, "How can you say we’re planning to build in the place that will eventually be Palestine?"
I'm long past caring about Israel.
frizzled
(509 posts)nt
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Mosby
(16,306 posts)Maybe settlers are fair game:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/condemn-or-not
The PA can't even admit what happened:
In a written communique published on the official news agency Wafa, PA government spokesman Ihab Bseiso called on the international community to intervene following “the killing of two young men in occupied Jerusalem and the series of incursions into cities and villages in the West Bank.”
The statement made no mention of the fact that the two dead Palestinians had been killed while carrying out stabbing attacks against Israeli civilians.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/breaking-silence-pa-condemns-israel-for-killing-jerusalem-assailants
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)What a vile fucking disgusting post, enjoy your stay newby.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)He made no judgement on what happened. He was simply providing some context. Do facts always bother you so much?
Mosby
(16,306 posts)The land in question was liberated by Israel and the status is open pending implementation of un security council resolution 242.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)for terrorists. How adorable.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-wraps-up-4-hour-security-meeting-following-terror-attacks/
other things include "fast tracking " home demolitions and increased adminstrative detentions
7962
(11,841 posts)So Israel will stop the attacks by stopping the perpetrators from entering the city. Just like when they built the wall, attacks went down in that area to almost none. When you have to deal with terrorists on a daily basis, you do what you have to do
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)a baby to death? but thanks for your answer
7962
(11,841 posts)So no, I dont have a problem with them suspending entry. Until they quit stabbing/shooting/bombing and quit supporting those who want to completely do away with Israel, keep 'em out.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Reminder that a Palestinian family was burned alive by Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and the apartheid government in Israel did jack shit in response.
7962
(11,841 posts)Statement from an IDF leader.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/1.668871
" Netanyahu has expressed "shock and horror"
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.668880
No, no one was arrested, but not because they didnt try. How many times here does a murderer get away? And other attacks HAVE resulted in arrests and guilty verdicts.
Now show me where the Palestinians have ever condemned a similar attack against Israel. NO palestinian has ever been tried in a palestinian court for attacking Israeli civilians.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)No prosecutions for the arson attacks against people, against mosques, against Christian churches.
Nor for the violent attacks on Palestinian men, women, children, property, land, trees, etc.
Shin Bet does not magically transform from super-competent when sniffing out Palestinian terrorists to hopelessly incompetent when they have a 100% failure rate at tracking down Jewish terrorists.
No, there is an evil, racist agenda behind that disparity.
The Israeli government is only pretending to be objecting to such terrorism--because they are better at Public Relations than the Palestinians are.
It's a free country, so you have the right to support their apartheid policies. But please don't pretend it's about security or protecting human life. Palestinians are every bit as human as Israelis and have all of the same human rights, even though you and your fellow travelers don't seem to recognize it.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)But have fun with it. Anyone can find one example of radical activities.
But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of attacks on Israeli civilians for every one on a palestinian
But in a couple years you'll get your wish and Iran will have a nuke. Then we'll see who the real threat to "peace" is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)gets more fantastical
7962
(11,841 posts)Its really simple, there will be peace as soon as the Palestinians want peace. And stop electing leaders who want to exterminate Israel. Which they profess often.
Until then, tough shit for them
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Thanks for confirming the mindset of Team Israel.
fingrin
(120 posts)Shortly after the terror attack, in which a Palestinian stabbed to death two Jews, hundreds of people, mostly youths, gathered at Zion Square, answering a call to demonstrate and demand revenge. Bentzi Gopstein, head of Lehava, and right-wing extremists Itamar Ben Gvir and Baruch Marzel were prominent, but they only seemed to be leading the event. In practice, this crowd had no leader but was fueled by a feeling of hate and the desire to take revenge.
Among the demonstrators were Lehava activists, wearing black shirts, young ultra-Orthodox Jews, well-known local right-wing activists and many foreigners, speaking English and French, who joined the mob, and at least one Evangelist preacher, who called on the people of Israel to awaken. In contrast to the past, it looked like women took a significant part in inflaming passions.
“We have to kill them all, including the Arab Druze in the army,” explained one woman to her girlfriend.
It started as a kind of protest of rage, with the familiar calls of “death to terrorists,” “revenge” and “the people demand security.” However, it quickly switched to the no-less familiar calls of “death to Arabs,” “an Arab is a bastard, a Jew is a good soul” and other songs from the fairly limited racist repertoire of the far right in Jerusalem. Some of the organizers sought to lead the mob through Damascus Gate and the Muslim Quarter in the Old City to the site of the terror attack. The police was not about to let that happen and blocked their way between Zion Square and Jaffa Road.
From there, gangs of youths ran amok looking for Arab victims. But Arab workers in central Jerusalem are used to such events, and the vast majority of them fled home before the rioting. Even on the light rail cars, that often serve the Arab population, there were no Arabs. The Jewish youths blocked the rail in the square and “interviewed” passengers to determine their identity.
“Are you an Arab? Are you an Arab?” they called out to a passenger who was probably wise enough to smile without answering.
“Leave him alone. He’s a Jew,” said one of the attackers, and they moved on to look for the next victim. The rest of the passengers responded apathetically and tried to look the other way. There were many drivers who honked in solidarity and vocally supported them. The cafes and restaurants along Jaffa Road were full of people watching the march of hatred passing back and forth.
They found one victim in Mamila Mall, a kitchen worker at the Roladin café who had stepped out for a cigarette. They sprayed teargas in his face. A Palestinian taxi driver was attacked, and when he tried to flee he hit and lightly injured a pedestrian. Dozens of Jewish youths stormed the central Ben Yehuda Street looking for Arab workers. On Jaffa Road, policemen were forced to accompany a vehicle of municipal sanitation workers. At Zion Square, they massed around a circle of people participating in the “Medabrim Bakikar” dialogue group and threatened to assault a Palestinian woman.
But these random victims did not sate their urge and after midnight there was a mass run toward Damascus Gate. They were stopped before the gate by police and pushed back with clubs toward the Musrara neighborhood.
“Let the people of Israel enter the gates and kill Arabs,” one of the youths shouted at the police. “Where were you at seven in the evening? Go beat up Arabs,” a female demonstrator cried, referring to the terror attack earlier that night. Meanwhile, they ran back and forth, following false rumors of Arab passersby and undercover agents hiding among them with calls of death to Arabs.
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/launched-palestinian-jerusalem#sthash.AA8BdGNL.dpuf
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Why don't you post from stormfront next time around?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Care to comment on this charming vignette from the religious Zionists.
"Are you an Arab? Are you an Arab?" they called out to a passenger who was probably wise enough to smile without answering.
"Leave him alone. He's a Jew," said one of the attackers, and they moved on to look for the next victim. The rest of the passengers responded apathetically and tried to look the other way. There were many drivers who honked in solidarity and vocally supported them. The cafes and restaurants along Jaffa Road were full of people watching the march of hatred passing back and forth.
They found one victim in Mamila Mall, a kitchen worker at the Roladin café who had stepped out for a cigarette. They sprayed teargas in his face. A Palestinian taxi driver was attacked, and when he tried to flee he hit and lightly injured a pedestrian. Dozens of Jewish youths stormed the central Ben Yehuda Street looking for Arab workers. On Jaffa Road, policemen were forced to accompany a vehicle of municipal sanitation workers. At Zion Square, they massed around a circle of people participating in the "Medabrim Bakikar" dialogue group and threatened to assault a Palestinian woman.
But these random victims did not sate their urge and after midnight there was a mass run toward Damascus Gate. They were stopped before the gate by police and pushed back with clubs toward the Musrara neighborhood.
"Let the people of Israel enter the gates and kill Arabs," one of the youths shouted at the police. "Where were you at seven in the evening? Go beat up Arabs," a female demonstrator cried, referring to the terror attack earlier that night. Meanwhile, they ran back and forth, following false rumors of Arab passersby and undercover agents hiding among them with calls of death to Arabs.
The Czars and their Kossacks would be proud of what lessons they were able to teach the people of Israel.
Bloofer
(20 posts)Criminal
