Russian entry into Turkish airspace lasted 'seconds': U.S. official

[uawchild]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by GP6971 (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: Yahoo News

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States believes Russia's incursion into Turkish airspace on Tuesday likely lasted only a matter of seconds before Turkey shot down a Russian warplane, a U.S. official said, saying the assessment was based on preliminary indications.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-entry-turkish-airspace-lasted-seconds-u-official-164618732.html

---

Trigger happy Turkey -- nice. So much for the 5 minute violation and repeated, what was it, 10 warnings Turkey claimed it gave during this incident, eh?

I am sure NATO is happy as clams about this. This type of incident, where a slightly unhinged NATO member acts in an overboard aggressive manner is exactly the Achilles heel of the alliance -- too many smaller powers with grudges and agendas of their own that then try to invoke NATO to protect them from the consequences of their own military adventurism.

[mahannah]

1. Saber-rattling step two. How happy is a clam anyway?

[jberryhill]

37. I've never heard one complain

[xocet]

2. It may have been seconds, but at what velocity? n/t

[uawchild]

3. huh? that makes no sense...

The time was SECONDS, why would velocity matter? Are you confused?

Turkey claimed it was a 5 minute airspace violation during which they gave 10 warnings. The US official indicates that was a lie, the airspace violation lasted seconds.

[LanternWaste]

5. No doubt, bias compels us to accept one version as absolute truth

No doubt, bias compels us to accept one version as absolute truth, and any other version merely a lie; despite NATO on Monday condemning the “extreme danger” posed by repeated Russian incursions into Turkish airspace.

[leftynyc]

17. Uh - no

Turkey claimed they gave 10 warnings over a 5 minute period. Nothing at all about how long they were in Turkish air space.

[uawchild]

25. uh ok....

The original Turkish spin was this:

"Turkey said its fighter jets have shot down a warplane after it violated Turkey’s airspace. The jet was warned 10 times in the space of five minutes over airspace violations before it was shot down by F-16 fighter jets, the Turkish military said in a statement."

So... Turkey warned it 10 times in the space of 5 minutes about airspace violations that did not happen yet? Ok....


The Turkish radar tracking showing a single seconds long incursion (light blue line is border)

OK, still seems trigger happy to me, but I understand a nation's airspace needs to be respected and protected.

But didn't Turkey violate Syrian airspace previously? Oh, yeah, they did..

Turkish warplanes bomb ISIS positions in Syria for the first time
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/middleeast/turkey-syria-isis-violence/

Does this means Russia would have the right to shoot down Turkish airplanes over Syria if asked to do so by the Syrian government?

[leftynyc]

33. Sigh

They've been warned about violating air space before. Today it was 10 times in 5 minutes and you posted the radar to prove they did violate the air space - doesn't really matter how long they did it for. They were warned, they did it anyway and now they have at least 1 dead pilot and 1 dead marine, a wrecked fighter plane and a wrecked helicopter - hope his swinging his dick around was worth it.

As for your final thoughts - yes, I believe if asked by the Syrian government to protect their air space, Russia could shoot down a Turkish plane. Are there Turkish planes flying over Syria?

[uawchild]

34. deep sigh

A poster down thread characterized this best:

Xithras: "International rules of engagement outside of war are pretty clear, and Turkey violated them."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1270501

"Are there Turkish planes flying over Syria?"
I already provided a link showing Turkey bombed Kurds inside Syria. And of course, its not just Turkey, France was warned for not requesting permission for ITS recent airstrikes in Syria. And needless to say the US has also carried out airstrikes inside Syria with out government approval.

[leftynyc]

35. I was speaking legally

not ethically or morally. I don't really think those engagement outside of war applies here - they are CLEARLY at war.

[uawchild]

36. Who is at war with whom?

"I was speaking legally not ethically or morally.I don't really think those engagement outside of war applies here - they are CLEARLY at war."

Serious question: who are you saying is at war with whom? That Turkey is at war with Syria? Not according to Turkey. Turkey has not declared war on Syria, legally speaking.

After all, we are told the conflict in Syria is a civil war, isn't that the cover story to cover up the illegal proxy war that is going on there?

[leftynyc]

48. Syria has been in a civil

War for a long time now. Russia is supporting an ally but Turkey still gets to protect their air space. I never said Turkey was at war with anyone. But Russia is smack in the middle of a civil war but still must adhere to borders.

[restorefreedom]

40. they weren't even in airspace for 10 minutes

the latest they said on tv was possible seconds

[tammywammy]

49. As the Russian jets were headed to the Syrian border they were given warnings

That what the 10 min was about. The warnings would have been that they were headed for Turkey and they would be fired upon if they breeched the border and would advise them to change course.

[xocet]

43. That is a good question for you to ask yourself. How does a path depend on velocity?

After checking your OP's link again, I did not see further information on the path of the violation. It also did not state whether the violation lasted 2 seconds or 119 seconds. One can travel quite a distance if given a jet and (just under) a couple of minutes.

Do you get the point?

Also, your secondary claims are not in your OP.

[happyslug]

16. Here is the Radar Track as released by Turkey

Notice the Russian path are in Red (and they appear to be two tracks, i.e. two jets). This would be confirmed by the reports another jet and another Helicopter were attacked. The SU-25 was shot down, the Helicopter no report, but it appeared to be hit by forces inside Syria. The report on the shooting down of the SU-25 may just be a confused report of the shoot down of the SU-24.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/turkey-shoots-warplane-syria-border-151124081519290.html

More on the Helicopter shoot down:

http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/11/russian-helicopter-shot-down-syria/

Now, you may ask why the image from above as oppose to the actual Radar picture? The reason is simple, modern computers put the Object being tracks in a format that is usable in real time. Thus the various dots, which are the actual Radar points and the track from point to point. You are seeing what the Radar Operator is seeing.

As you can see the Jet was TRACKED while in Syrian Territory and then shot at once it cross that small bit of Turkish territory. The Turks saw what it was doing, and when it turned and started to get close to the Turkish Border they waited till he crossed and hit it. Given that nub of Turkish territory, the Turks had been planning to do this for some time. In normal times, you send a letter of protest and if you have time send a fighter to turn the other jet around. In this circumstance sending a jet was NOT an option for by the time the Russian Jet was in Turkish territory, the fastest way out was the route it was on. Someone wanted to shoot down a Russian Jet and they did it.

[Xolodno]

20. Turkey was pissed that the Russians were also bombing...

Turkish rebel groups in Syria. Someone over there got trigger happy with their anger. And they haven't been exactly apologetic either.

Question is now, what will Putin do? At the very least, I suspect bombings on Turkish rebel groups will now intensify (way to go Edrogan)....really piss them off an recognize "Kurdistan"...

[happyslug]

21. Please remember, the Turkish Army is NOT supportive of the President of Turkey.

Now, the enlisted ranks of the Turkish army support the present President, but the OFFICER CORP is a different matter. The Officer Corp of the Turkish Army is tied in with the opposition to Erdoğan. They are "allied" with the present government of Egypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia (and unofficially ISIS). Erdoğan and his AK a party is tied in the Moslem Brotherhood in both Egypt and Syria.

Notice BOTH sides in the dispute over who rule Turkey, prefer someone other then Assad but dislike each other almost as much as they hate Assad. In many ways you are seeing a three way war. Assad and his allies, the Russians and the Shiites of the Middle East (Hezbollah, Iran and the present Government of Iraq). Assad is a Awite, which ISIS sometimes refer to as "Christians" even through the Awite considered themselves Moslem (But celebrate Christian Holiday in addition to Islamic Holidays). The Christians of Lebanon is also part of that traditional Coalition (And the Christians of Lebanon have long allied with France, going back to the Crusades but NOT ending with the Crusades. France sent aid to them in the 1600s and 1700s in addition to taking over Lebanon and Syria post WWI. At times the Vatican has been with this alliance (I have NOT read anything as to Vatican military support since the 1600s).

The second side is the Militaries of Egypt and Turkey. These are unofficially allied with Saudi Arabia and Israel. ISIS is part of this group. They value power over dogma, but they dogma is radical Islam. They tend to rule with an Iron Fist for they biggest fear is losing out to the third group. The PLO is part of this group.

The third side is the Moslem Brotherhood. The present Turkish Government is tied in with this group. They are radical moslems but value dogma over power. They have the largest support among the lower classes throughout the middle east. In many ways they replaced the Communists in those countries. The upper classes fear them for they are willing to turn over property to the poor and have a long history of helping people in need (This was so bad, that under Mubarak, it became illegal for the Moslem Brotherhood to help victims of tragedies
, for they were providing aid in such tragedies quicker and in larger amounts then the Government of Egypt. Hamas is part of this group. Gaddafi was of this group.

There is a tendency in the West to merge these two groups into one huge anti-western group, and then deny US Allies, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Israel, PLO, and Egypt are part of the second group. There is also a lot of bleed over in these two groups, for example under Arafat the PLO was more in line with the Moslem Brotherhood then Israel, but since his death that has changed.

I bring this up, for it is possible that this shooting the present government of Turkey OPPOSED but was something the Turkish Military wanted. Remember they are in two different alliances, closely allied alliances at the present time, but two different alliances. The difference is almost class based. The upper classes of the Middle East supporting ISIS/Saudi Arabia/Israel alliance, while the lower classes supporting the Moslem Brotherhood. When class is NOT an issue, these two groups act as one, but when class is a factor, the split is becomes clear.

As to the Iran/Iraq/Assad/Lebanese Christian "alliance", I do NOT see the class division within the parties of the alliance. I suspect it exists, but due to the fact the Shiites have been traditionally discriminated against, outside of Iran, it is mostly lower class and thus willing to work with the Moslem Brotherhood (i.e. they are willing to cut a deal with the Moslem Brotherhood, and the Moslem Brotherhood will cut a deal with them). The ISIS centered alliance dislike cutting any deal, for it means giving up power and that is the last thing that group wants to do.

[daleo]

24. You bring some interesting perspectives to the discussion

Especially the issues of how social class dynamics are involved.

[jeff47]

27. Turkey already sent multiple letters of protest in previous incidents.

Russia ignored them.

[happyslug]

38. So you shoot down a jet for flying 17 seconds into your air space

AND where the missile hit its target, the offending jet is already BACK in Syrian Territory.

The rule is no discharge from a weapon can enter the air space of another country. Thus while the Jet broke international law, so did the shoot down. That the offending jet crashed in Syria can be dismissed as just the result of what it did in Turkey, the fact that the missile that brought it down did NOT shoot down the Russian Jet till it was while in Syria is a major problem. i.e. if the missile had hit the place while in Turkish Territory, no problem if the plane later crushes in Syria. The problem is the missile hit the jet in SYRIAN TERRITORY and thus a violation of SYRIAN Air space AND PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND PROPERTY DAMAGED.

The Shoot down could have been justified, if the target was hit in Turkish Air Space, but even the Turks are admitted it did NOT. Thus Turkey did the same thing they are blaming the Russian of, violating Someone else's Air Space.

[xocet]

44. Thank you for the extra information. I appreciate it. n/t

[happyslug]

46. Now, when I posted that the talk was still of a Ground to Air Missile, but now it is F-16

Last edited Tue Nov 24, 2015, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

The blue dots and lines, I suspect is the F-16 flight. It is traditional in military maps for enemies to be in Red and Friendly forces in Blue.

Furthermore it is now clear two MIG-24 were in operation at that same time, thus the two red lines. Notice the line STOP as the blue line (I suspect for the F-16) closes in to SYRIAN TERRITORY. It appears to be a dash, and if that is the case that F-16 subsequently entered Syrian territory. i.e. fire its missile and THEN entered Syrian Air Space. Thus the termination of all place tracks. The Turkish Air Force does NOT want to show its plane violated Syrian Air Space.

[tammywammy]

51. The Patriot air defense systems that were loaned to Turkey a couple years ago

Were removed last month.

[uppityperson]

4. Article here says they warned it starting 15 km away. Still, 5 min seems too long for it to fly 15 k

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141269670

[BeyondGeography]

6. The bending-over-backwards for Russia around here is hilarious

Guess what: they were in Turkey. Tough darts. Not only that, they were flying over Turkey to advance a strategy that Turks oppose (propping up Assad and fighting rebels supported by the Turks, among others).

Oh, and they're way far away from home. And the trigger happy ones are the guys defending their airspace. OK.

[rhett o rick]

8. Wow, that doesn't sound very Democratic. Sounds more like what the Republicons would say.

Let's justify our inflated defense budget and go to war with Russia.

[BeyondGeography]

10. You can add the President to your doubtlessly long list of people who sound Republican

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141270141

[nashville_brook]

9. as someone who grew up in the middle of the Cold War, i don't read this as

"bending-over-backwards for Russia."

Rather i see it as scared shitless that we're heading into another superpower confrontation. A lot of people here weren't alive for the first Cold War, so it might be difficult to understand, but there's more to it than simply "supporting Russia." There's not wanting another war with Russia — cold or otherwise.

[BeyondGeography]

11. If you'd like to avoid another war, defending sovereign airspace rights is one place to start

[jamzrockz]

12. How about we start in Syria

and go from there. How does that sound?

[nashville_brook]

14. uh huh, and being in a proxy war in Syria is a great way to...start a war.

[Sherman A1]

7. IIRC

When the Russian chose to intervene in the Syrian conflict, Turkey had warned The Russians about violating their airspace. While this is regrettable, I would not classify Turkey as trigger happy or unhinged. This may have not been the best choice of responses, however at what point does one nation give up sovereignty of it's airspace?

[Angel Martin]

52. One rule for Russia, another for Turkey

Well, we know how seriously Turkey treats the sanctity of borders

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/29/turkey-launches-biggest-attack-kurdish-militants

[Sunlei]

13. russia has to stop their willie nillie bombing Jets. they bomb the crap out of the entire of syria

only exception is Assads stronghold.

[w0nderer]

15. K & R N/T

[Demeter]

18. Well, that was mighty white of someone to call Turkey on their BS

I don't suppose such a statement has the Presidential seal of approval, though.

[Nyan]

19. It's Erdogan getting nervous and NATO enabling him

because NATO would love to have a proxy war with Russia. But, I think Obama himself has become quite sick of Turkey, hence, no cover-up for Turkey; under the disguise of coalition bombing, Erdogan has been attacking Kurds all along (who are some of the most effective fighters on the ground against ISIS) for his own political survival. After the Paris attack, Obama seems to have struck a potential deal with Putin, resulting in the release of information as to which states are financing and backing ISIS. Turkey is one of them. Erdogan has been giving free pass on the terrorists crossing over on his border from Europe to Syria (one of the ring leaders of Paris attack has been going back and forth through Turkey about 5 times this year alone), he's now getting cheap oil from ISIS-captured areas, add to the fact that he's always been more than happy to start something at the behest of NATO to see Assad go. You might recall a UN report that came out in 2013 about Turkey's attempted false flag operation. But as I remember, the voice file got leaked, which was followed by Erdogan's measures to ban YouTube in Turkey. I think Obama is at least now trying to stop the madness going around in the world that is now affecting Europe in serious ways, which requires working with Russia at this point. And I think he knows that. I think he's realizing now that America's so-called allies in the ME are not doing him or world any good...

[darkangel218]

30. This is just insane, what is happening.

What are they trying to start, a third world war???

[Nyan]

54. Yeah, I think so, unfortunately...

Syria situation is that fucked up and that convoluted. But Obama's not about to trip into WW3 for Turkey. And I don't think Putin's going to attack Turkey over this, either.

[SunSeeker]

22. What an idiotic, irresponsible move by Turkey. nt

[darkangel218]

28. They probably couldnt wait to take down a Russian jet!

The opportunity arrived and they jumped on it! Obama shouldn't have jumped to defend them so quickly!

[Xolodno]

23. Have to wonder...

...how routine are these "warnings". Obviously the pilots ignored the warnings, but why? If they get these warnings every time they fly close to the border when they bomb the Turk rebel groups, I can see why it was ignored.

Also if the air space violation was few seconds, on which side of the border was plane shot down?

This incident didn't do Turkey any favors.

[jeff47]

29. They were shot over Turkey. But it takes a while to fall from 20,000 feet

so the wreckage landed in Syria.

[Xolodno]

32. According to this map....

It was hit in Syrian airspace. And the map is sourced from Turkey.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141270396#post8

[darkangel218]

26. +1 million!

[Xithras]

31. International rules of engagement outside of war are pretty clear, and Turkey violated them.

When a foreign jet enters your airspace without permission, you warn it off first. If it ignores the warning and appears to be an imminent threat to the nation (i.e., it's about to bomb you), you can shoot it down. If it does not appear to be an immediate threat, you intercept it and try to force it to change its heading or land. If it fails to respond to an interception, THEN you can shoot it down.

These are the rules of interception used by NATO throughout the Cold War, and are the standard rules of interception used by nations around the world. Intruding jets are ONLY shot down if they pose an immediate military threat, or if they ignore interception attempts and continue to venture deeper into your territory. Neither of those were the case.

Shooting an aircraft down immediately, as a few clueless people here seem to be trying to justify, is only allowable when you're at war. By shooting down the aircraft this way, Turkey just informed Russia that they're responding to Russia as if they are in a state of war with Russia.

This is going to get very ugly.

[restorefreedom]

41. esp since our president

would rather give cover to a country helping isis than actually defend one who is fighting them (whatever their motives)

[eissa]

39. And yet the wreckage and crew were in Syria

Turkey wasn't protecting its territory, it was protecting its benefactors in Syria.

[NutmegYankee]

42. The jet didn't just fall to the ground.

It covered distance to the crash point.

[roamer65]

47. How do you give 10 warnings in 5 minutes for something that took 17 seconds?

Erdogan is full of shit. That plane was shot down in Syrian airspace.

The Russians will retaliate by shooting down a Turkish jet.

[polly7]

50. Erdogan is a lying fucking psycopath. But his lies make it possible

to elevate the already foaming at the mouth hate for anything Russian and those dead men - it's all good to further the horror.

[tammywammy]

53. You warn as they approach to change course. n/t

[GP6971]

55. Locking

Dupe post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141270856