Exclusive: School Prohibits Fifth-Grader From Giving Speech On Same-Sex Marriage

[kpete]

Source: NY1

06/14/2012 10:31 PM
NY1 Exclusive: School Prohibits Fifth-Grader From Giving Speech On Same-Sex Marriage

A Queens fifth-grade student planned to give a speech about same-sex marriage for a school competition but his principal prohibited him, saying the speech was inappropriate. NY1's Ruschell Boone filed the following report.

Kameron Slade worked on his speech with his mother and his teacher after winning a class competition. He was slated to deliver it in a school-wide contest at PS 195.

That's no longer going to happen. His mother, who doesn't want to be identified, said the principal told her the topic is inappropriate.

"For him to be denied the right to voice his opinion really upsets me," she said.

Read more: http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/163142/ny1-exclusive--fifth-grade-student-performs-banned-speech-for-ny1-cameras

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complete speech here:
http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/163142/ny1-exclusive--fifth-grade-student-performs-banned-speech-for-ny1-cameras

[Drale]

1. The school had no right to stop him from giving the speech but

I almost feel like 5th grade is far to young to burden your children with political issues. Theres more then enough time for them to be bummed out the rest of their lives, let them be kids.

[roody]

3. If a fifth grader likes to think,

then by all means encourage him or her!

[Posteritatis]

5. Yes, let's prevent them from thinking about issues. What could possibly go wrong with that? (nt)

[dadchef]

15. Lets us by all means let this New York kid say that everyone is entitled to speak his mind! Oops.

Lets us now consider that some inbred in Mississippi wants to tell 500 kids that Gays are freaks of nature, Lets all applaud.. Geeze, where is your head?

Let us all agree, let 5th graders be kids for a decent amount of time before he/or she, has to understand the world is really unfair, and sometimes we have to conform because life has consequences..

[robinlynne]

6. the exact same thing happened to me in 6th grade. the subject was the vietnam war.

I had gone to countless anti-war marches. That was a big par of growing up. nothing wrong with it. the school made me redo the report, with the subject"cats". my mother went to the school board and filed a complaint. This episode helped me to become who I am. It was not my mother's idea to write about the war. It was my idea. It is what was happening in our country at the time.

[msongs]

8. politcal issues? bet a speech about hetero marriages would have been approved and btw

isn't gay marriage legal in NY?

[progressivebydesign]

10. I was pretty politically aware and active at a young age.

Some of us are more aware. And my stepdaughter is more away of GLBT issues because of her gay uncle, so she was politically motivated about that early on, with no adult prodding (her mother was a born again.)

[csziggy]

11. Did you listen to the young man's speech at the link provided in the OP?

He referenced how children are already exposed to political issues and dealt with this particular issue in a very age appropriate way. I hope he gets more recognition for his maturity in addressing an issue that many adults are incapable of approaching as adults.

I do not get the feeling from his speech that it was influenced or crafted by an adult. To me, the speech sounded completely his own with the attitudes and degree of thought that might be expected from a young but very intelligent young man.

[roody]

2. Big mistake on the principal's part n/t

[Great Caesars Ghost]

4. Fuckin prick

This was a speech about showing diversify tolerance and respect. Guess he didn't want that to happen.

[hrmjustin]

18. Agreed! n/t

[ladjf]

7. I believe that the speech topic would have been more appropriate

had the student been in a higher grade, say Junior or Senior.
I'm doubtful that a prepubescent child could have many significant thoughts on the subject of marriage.

And so far as the child's rights to make the speech, at the first level, it's the obligation of the school's administration to decide what is appropriate, not only for one child's self expression, but for the rights of the other students and the allocation of school time.

If the parents deem that school decision to be illegal, they are free to contest the ruling in court.

Finally, before I get flamed by many, I am a staunch believer in the right to same sex marriage. I have sided with the school policy not only for the reasons I stated above but for the interests of the same sex advocates, who by supporting the child's rights in such a weak
situation, harms rather than helps the movement.

What if the student had been a 1st or 2nd grader and had wanted to make a speech on the same topic? Who decides that a 1st grader is too young but the 5th grader isn't?

[happyslug]

9. Age when one is treated as adult had varied over time AND situations

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Under the Common Law, the age when someone could be treated as an adult was age 14, if you had the knowledge of a typical 14 year old you were treated as an adult.

If you were below age 7, you were presumed to be incompetent. Between 7 and 14 it was on a case by case basis. Thus if you can show that a 7 year old had the mental capacity of a typical 14 year old, he could be hanged for a crime an adult could be hanged for (and was in at least onE occasion was, that case was so unusual the case was written down in a time period when most such cases were NOT written down, the person was just executed).

On the other hand, age 12 was the age one could agree to marry (or have sex), even if your mental capacity was less then a typical 12 year old (In other cultures the age was 9, thus Mohammed "consummated" his marriage to his wife Aisha when she turned 9, given that she never had any children questions remains on whether it was consummated or both parties agree to say it was to make it a valid marriage, for the marriage was a political marriage, sex was, at best, a side issue).

Since 1800 there had been a tendency to raise the age as to consent from the common law ages of Seven

Seven (7) (About Second Grade), Twelve (12) (About sixth grade) and 14 (about 8th grade). My grade equivalence is based on entering first grade at age six (6). Thus, even under the Common Law, this fifth grader could NO even agree to marry himself (or have sex). Under the Common Law, he was NOT in the work force (That tended to age 14 or completion of 8th grade). Till 1947 unemployment in the US was counted on the basis of the number of people unemployed over the age of 14 (In 1947 it was changed to the "modern" age of everyone over age 17).

Sorry, given the above, it is clear the School has the right to restrict what this student wants to say for he is still viewed as "incompetent". A High School Student would be different, he or she would be viewed as more like an adult then a baby, but we are talking of a Fifth Grader, age about 11, which was to young even under the Common Law, let alone modern law in most states.

[csziggy]

12. You obviously didn't listen to his speech

If you had, you would NOT have said this: "I'm doubtful that a prepubescent child could have many significant thoughts on the subject of marriage."

The OP has a link to his speech delivered by him to the camera. LISTEN to it - it is worth the time.

His thoughts ARE significant and completely age appropriate for a very intelligent young man. Maybe some of his classmates (and their parents) are not mature enough to handle the subject but there is nothing in his speech that should be objectionable to any thinking person. His speech would be a good starting point for children of that age to discuss the subject which does affect many of them.

[ladjf]

13. You obviously haven't read my second post which I wrote after

watching the bright young man read a essay on same-sex marriage.

The speech appeared to have been written by, or at least highly edited by an adult. I make that observation have over thirty years as an educator. His presentation was simply a well done expression of what is now a political issue favoring same sex marriage. If he should be given permission to make such a presentation, then other students who's families have an apposing view should also be able speak. Then the fifth grade has become a political forum.

My point is that this type of material would be better suited for higher grade level courses in social studies where the students are
more likely to be expressing their own thoughts and to students who are old enough to be interested in the topic of marriage.

I was in no way denigrating the intellect of the 5th grader ,nor the
logic and ethics of the presentation. As I said before, I am a staunch
supporter of same-sex marriage. I don't think my comments show any negative bias. I speak as an educator who has taught school at all levels from grade school to graduate school. For proper child development, the timing of when information is presented is crucial
for maximum effectiveness.

[wickerwoman]

14. Oh nonsense. Preschoolers "play house".

Of course kids have thoughts about marriage.

What if we were talking about a kindergartener with same-sex parents? Are they not allowed to mention a very central aspect of their life and identity because of the "rights" of other children not to be exposed to that reality?

Who decides that it's fine for kids to talk about their straight, nuclear families but not for kids from other backgrounds to talk about their reality? How old they are is irrelevant. It's a question of letting kids be honest about themselves and their thoughts, something that is always age-appropriate.

[ladjf]

16. I haven't said that children don't have the right to think about and

talk about marriage or same sex marriage. But, making speeches to the 5th grade class actually turns the process into a seminar on the subject. That would be better suited for a higher grade level.

The child in question on this thread has been well briefed on the topic and doesn't appear to need any further instruction on the subject. The parents point is that they want to bring all of the other pupils "up to speed" as they have done with their child.

If the public feels that sex education and marriage should be in the 5th grade curriculum, they should take steps to have the curriculum modified so as to include that. But, at whatever level such subjects begin, they need to be followed up each year. That would mean courses from the 5th to the 12th grade that dealt with marriage and sexual arrangements.

Or , do you have in mine that same-sex should be discussed today in the 5th grade class because one child wants to present his parents views? It certainly wouldn't damage any of the other students to hear the child read his parents speech. From an education standpoint it would be an ad hoc presentation that is basically off topic from the curriculum and likely to lead to some disruptions as the parents begin to quarrel about who else should be allowed to make speeches.

[wickerwoman]

19. It was a speech competition.

Not every topic the kids chose has to become an entire curriculum unit. If one kid wanted to talk about guns or hunting, the teacher wouldn't be obligated to turn it into an anatomy lesson and make all the kids dissect a rabbit.

But that also doesn't mean that the kid should be censored, particularly if hunting is something that he/she enjoys doing with their parents and that is part of who they are/who their family is. Kids need to be exposed to the fact that other people are different from them and lead different lives. Allowing the kid to speak about it a competition where everyone else is allowed to select their own topic is fine and doesn't imply that the school endorses that viewpoint or that anyone else has to adopt it.

School should be about learning and exposure to new things, especially in areas where parents' prejudicides might have created blindspots for their kids. Teachers who bow to parental pressure to pretend that homosexuality doesn't exist aren't doing their jobs and are doing a grave disservice to the children they teach.

[ladjf]

20. Subsequent to my previous post, I researched the issue further on

the INTERNET, discovering that the child had won a speed contest. That does alter the dynamics to some degree.

I still agree that the subject was to hot of a political issue to use at the school concert. However, I think the principal should have referred the entire matter to the School Board so that what ever the decision, it would have be the official policy of the system rather than a lower administrator's unilateral decision which some felt showed a negative bias.

You feel that the pro same sex marriage issue is right enough and legal enough to be included as speech topics at school functions and at the 5th grade level and in this case especially since the child was a proven good speaker.

I feel that the issue is right and legal enough to be discussed by anyone, anywhere except in cases where a public institution would be required to appear to be advocating an explosive political cause.
I say this because there are other venues that are designed to deal with political debate better that using 11 yr. old children in public children. I wouldn't have approved the speech topic if it had been
anti-same sex marriage for the same reasons.

[wickerwoman]

21. Same sex marriage is not just an abstract political issue.

It is also an issue of identity, a critical part of who some kids are and how they understand where they came from.

If we were talking about abortion or stem-cell research or torture I would say that you have a point about it's suitability as a debate/speech topic in elementary school. But family is a part of who these kids are, not just a political talking point, and banning kids from talking about who they are is a form of psychological violence which does, by default, endorse a position (that there is something wrong/unspeakable about having two mommies or daddies... even if the "educator" in question doesn't explicitly own that position).

[ladjf]

22. Your points are well taken. I can tell that you have given the subject

of same sex marriage a lot more thought than I have.

My ideas are given from the viewpoint of a veteran public school educator. My philosophy always has been and still is , that public schools should stay out of advocating political and religious positions. The teachers should be urged to primarily teach their subject specialties with very little non subject related discourse.

Parents should be the primary teachers of religion, ethics and politics to their children.
The exception to that would be high level courses specifically created to cover important aspects of religion and/or politics. But, even then, there should be no advocacy.

Private schools are another matter all together.

[HockeyMom]

17. Gay Marriage has been legal in NY since last year

This child also lives in NYC. He's never seen gay couples? In NYC? How do we know that he doesn't have a gay relative who has gotten married? For all we know, his Mom might be married to a woman? A lot of unknown's here.

When I worked in an elmentary school on LI some years ago, there was a 1st Grade boy with two Moms. "I have 2 Mommies", he always said. He not only said this in front of the other kids, but both Moms participated in all the class/school activities. There was no way to hide this from the other children, and parents. These little kids, and actually their parents too, just accepted this family situation since so many of them weren't in a "traditational biological mother and father family. Some kids had a step-parent. Some lived with their divorced Moms. One girl lived with her Grandma and Grandma. If a 6 year old can know all these things just from seeing it with their own eyes, an 11 year old can't? Of course, you can argue that his essay was at an inappropriate time in school, but that he cannot possibly know, or have the right to say it, is wrong.