Tulare Police shoot and kill suspect during violent confrontation

[Garion_55]

Source: http://abc30.com

TULARE, Calif. (KFSN) -- Tulare Police officers shot and killed a suspect Monday afternoon, after multiple physical confrontations.

The violence has the community on edge.

Cell phone video of the encounter shows one officer running after the suspect before using his Taser, the chase continues with the suspect punching the officer, the officer then takes out his baton and swings. The chase then moves across the street where the second officer pepper sprays the suspect. Shortly after, shots are fired.

One witness didn't want to be identified but says he was about 30 feet away, caught in traffic caused by the initial altercation. "I didn't see him produce a weapon. I didn't hear an officer say 'drop the weapon' or anything like that. All the sudden, I see this officer pulls out his firearm and just 'pow pow pow' four or five times."

Read more: http://abc30.com/tulare-police-shoot-kill-suspect-after-confrontation-chase/3207780/

[Renew Deal]

1. I can see why it went the way it did.

This guy was fighting (not just resisting).

[safeinOhio]

2. Never a need to shoot and kill an unarmed man.

Wait for back up. What the hell, cops are paid by the hour.

[Renew Deal]

4. Im sure you would say the same thing if you were the one being pummeled

[safeinOhio]

8. I wouldn't be pummeled if I wait for all the other cops

to help restrain the person. Oh, that's right, you don't wait if the person is of color.

I don't think you'll find any training manual that condones shooting unarmed suspect that is fleeing.

[Renew Deal]

11. So you would let him get away?

“Excuse me Mr. violent criminal. Can you hang out while backup arrives? I’m sorry about the inconvenience.”

Doing police work from a keyboard is so convenient.

[3Hotdogs]

16. Re-read the preceeding posts. The suggestion is Wild Bill and Jingles should have waited for backup.

[Renew Deal]

17. And what is the consequence of that?

Will the criminal wait for backup too?

[Demsrule86]

22. You shouldn't shoot people without guns...and if you can't handle an unarmed guy...find another

profession.

[Renew Deal]

27. OK officer

[Demsrule86]

40. See...no answer...cops should not shoot unarmed people...and if they do after provoking the

situation in many cases...fire them and prosecute them. We need federal prosecution as local DA's won't do their job often.

[7962]

94. Wow, really? So we should have forces of Van Dammes roaming the streets?

In case you haven't noticed, a lot of bad people can be pretty large individuals. And this guy was actively attacking the cop. Maybe next guy will know better

[Demsrule86]

109. so the cop chases this large individual without any backup for some unknown reason

Jaywalking maybe? Maybe the cop told the guy he would kill him...we don't know...maybe the guy was having a mental breakdown...but cops manage to arrest white guys with AR15...but an unarmed black guy is just too much.

[7962]

110. "unknown reason"? Read the story. He was wanted for assaulting a bus driver.

Then he assaulted a cop. Tough shit.

[Demsrule86]

108. So the cop says...

he didn't have a gun...and I for one would like to know why he was stopped...this entire incident smells to high heaven...and if a cop can't handle his job, he should go.

[7962]

97. He wasnt fleeing when shot. He was attacking with the officers baton.

You hear the guy doing the video say it; "Ohh he took it from him!" as well as see him grab it
At that point we cant see because of a car, and the cops drop him.
He couldve given up from the very beginning. But he chose not to. He already assaulted a bus driver.

[brush]

23. STFU! Two cops were there with clubs and tazers against one unarmed man. Two cops...

with those non-lethal weapons at their disposal who can't physically contain one unarmed man without killing him don't need to be on the job.

That's just cowardice.

It's two of them. They should be able to overpower one unarmed man.

End of story.

I'm glad the passersby caught the murder on video.

[Renew Deal]

30. Right

Police officers all need to be UFC fighters now. What happens if the two officers can’t overpower this one guy? Should police travels in groups of 4, 8, 20? What’s the magic number that prevents police from being at a disadvantage?

[brush]

32. How about waiting for back up then and not panicking? It was murder.

[Renew Deal]

34. what do you think is the best way to ask the gentleman assaulting the police to wait for backup?

“Kind sir, do you mind holding off on beating me until backup arrives?”

[brush]

39. Never fails. When a cop panics and murders a black man the police apologists come to the rescue.

Let him go temporarily. The police department has way more resources to find one guy than those two who couldn't contain the situation.

You actually think they couldn't find that guy later, with all those witnesses in broad daylight?

Where the hell was he gonna escape to?

[Renew Deal]

42. So you want him to have the opportunity to go back and shoot someone himself?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2012082

Why do you want to put more people at risk?

[brush]

46. Shoot them with what. He didn't have a gun. It was murder by a panicked cop.

[Renew Deal]

48. The original call was for a shooting

Is the “panicked cop” also a victim in this case?

[brush]

50. What are you going on about. The dead man did not have a gun.

[Renew Deal]

52. Is the panicked cop also a victim in this case?

[Demsrule86]

41. They chased him...according to what I see...

[rockfordfile]

85. Why are you supporting two cops that murdered a unarmed guy?

The cops had choices still. This is a easy one.

[brush]

105. Sorry, two cops should be able to contain one man without resorting to killing him.

Those two are obviously in the wrong profession and should get a desk job where they won't have to use the physical training they apparently missed.

Of course they'll get off.

And if it was a white guy there wouldn't have been a shooting. How many times have we seen this. It's been going on for centuries against POCs and is only evident now because of cell phone videos.

Cops have been killing black men like this forever, and getting away with it.

[christx30]

107. Cops escalate based on what the suspect does.

Talk to him. If he continues to resist, attempt arrest. If he resists, use non-lethal means. If he continues to resist, what then? Would you wrestle him to the ground? What if he has a knife you haven't seen yet? What if he grabs a rock and clubs you over the head? What if he grabs your gun and shoots you or your partner? I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him. At some point, he has to comply. He's a dangerous suspect and he needs to follow the commands of the police on the scene. With the violence he is displaying, he's a risk to people in the area. What if he jumps into a vehicle and runs over a kid or slams into a minivan?
Where does his fate become his responsibility based on his behavior? Cops are lucky he just got a baton, and not a gun.

[brush]

111. Another cop apologist defending a panicking cop emptying his gun into the unarmed man instead...

helping his partner overpower him.

The two should have been able to take the guy down without killing him as they were both within feet

of him.

Guess they were afraid.

They need desk jobs instead of being in the field where things might get physical.

[christx30]

112. I'm about as much of a cop apologist

as you are pro criminal. But I know that the criminal should have surrendered. If he had surrendered, he'd be alive right now. Cops gave him orders, tried to use non lethals on him, and they all failed. There are so many things that could go wrong with physically taking him, like I mentioned in my previous post.
Cops are there to protect society, not individuals. The life of this violent idiot isn't as high of a priority as the people in the area he could hurt. You don't want to get shot? Don't be violent.

[brush]

113. Two full-grown cops should be able to take down one UNARMED guy without having to kill him.

Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2018, 08:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Where was their physical courage?

If you don't know how to handle yourself physically don't become a cop.

Maybe this will help you to understand why the guns come out so quickly on black men but not on white ones.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10355933

[pintobean]

9. But, he wasn't unarmed

He became armed when he took the cop's baton.

[7962]

10. Funny how easy that fact is ignored when some have an agenda.

The person filming even says it. And a car blocks our view at the actual point shots are fired.

[LanternWaste]

74. Much as the unarmed status of many victims of police brutality is ignored

Much as the unarmed status of many victims of police brutality is ignored as well "when some have an agenda..."

Yet that particular corollary gets rationalized far more often, and by far more people. I can only guess it's a much more popular 'agenda'... regardless of how funny one may perceive it.

[7962]

92. Not here on DU. THIS criminal wasnt "unarmed", so your point is, as usual, #

Very few folks on DU ignore truly unarmed victims of bad cops.

[moriah]

73. Which feeds into exactly why we don't need "good guys with weapons" in schools...

... because those weapons can be taken from the "good guys".

[7962]

91. Well, they were trying to NOT "shoot first".

Guess we shouldn't arm cops either? Sometimes their weapons are taken by the crook

[moriah]

93. It's a risk anytime a cop draws that he will be disarmed, and open carry gun holsters...

... worn by cops have far better security designs available to prevent a holstered firearm from being snatched than teachers who manage to shoot toilets because their carry weapon isn't holstered well enough to prevent accidental discharge dropping trou.

[Rainbow Droid]

3. Shooting an unarmed suspect 8 times, including after he's already down, is murder.

I don't see how those officers feared for their lives. I never saw any point that their lives were in danger.

But they couldn't control him with batons and fists, so they shot him 8 times.

Did I miss something?

[Renew Deal]

5. Nope. You got it.

Let’s look at this another way. What will happen if it goes to trial?

[MrScorpio]

6. Since the police in this country have carte blanche to shoot and kill unarmed black people...

I seriously doubt that cops will end up being prosecuted for it.

[safeinOhio]

7. Exactly.

Professional Courtesy to not testify against fellow LEO.

[Renew Deal]

14. Is it still a race issue once the criminal starts swinging?

I don’t know how he got to the point of following the guy, but once the guy starts swinging the officer is legitimately in danger.

[MrScorpio]

15. Black people have never had the luxury of disregarding the color of our own skin...

Especially when it comes to interactions with the police.

It's no secret why that's the case.

[Renew Deal]

18. I get that

The origin of the event may or may not be about race. But once it turns violent, it’s much harder to say.

[MrScorpio]

19. Which is something that routinely gets said in the aftermath...

Of every time the police ended up killing some unarmed black person.

[Renew Deal]

20. What else is routinely said?

Accusations of racism.

[MrScorpio]

21. Yeah, that these killings are in fact the result....

Of institutionalized racism.

[rockfordfile]

87. That's because the history of all that's happen.

[Demsrule86]

24. Oh please...the guy was running for his life clearly...the cop probably told him that.

[Renew Deal]

38. Which guy?

Did you notice the part where he was throwing punches?

[christx30]

37. It was a domestic disturbance.

The man was 40-year-old Robert Miller of Tulare.

On Tuesday night, police made a traffic stop in the 800 block of South Spruce Street in Tulare. Officers were responding to a possible domestic violence-related shooting that had been called in by witnesses.
Miller fired a gun then fled the scene in his truck, witnesses said.

https://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/story/news/2017/12/28/update-tulare-police-identify-suspect-officer-involved-shooting/987907001/

[Demsrule86]

43. it is always about race in the beginning...and then it escalates.

[rockfordfile]

86. The cops should be fired

[atreides1]

12. Nothing

Because after an "exhaustive investigation" by the office of the prosecutor, the shooting will be labeled as being justified!!!

[Renew Deal]

13. I agree

The video vindicates the police. There may be questions about how they got to the point of where the police were following this guy. I don’t know if there is video of that.

[Demsrule86]

25. White guy with an AR 15...talk him down...Black guy jay walking or for any minor

violation beat him down and/or shoot him.

[Renew Deal]

29. So youre saying that your agenda doesnt fit the evidence

[Demsrule86]

35. There is no evidence...this is a video...and I am saying. The guy was unarmed...

what about a taser...and he should have called for backup. I FIND his actions suspicious. And they don't get the benefit of the doubt from me...too much has happened.

[Renew Deal]

36. Tried that. Did that too.

I agree that it is suspicious despite the video showing the criminal assaulting the officer. Any incident like this deserves scrutiny. We also don’t know how things got to this point.

[brush]

26. The video doesn't vindicate them. Two cops should be able to physically overpower one man...

without killing him.

Hate to break it to you but being a cop requires some physical courage.

The two of them should have ganged up on the guy and taken him down without killing him.

That was murder.

[Renew Deal]

28. Really

What do they do if they can’t “overpower” the guy?

What is it called if he gets the better of them and maybe even kills one of them?

[brush]

31. How about waiting for back up then? The shooter panicked and emptied his gun. It was murder.

[Renew Deal]

33. The shooter is also the victim

But that’s another story. Do you think the criminal will kindly wait for backup?

[brush]

45. Let him go and pick him up later. Where was he going to hide in broad daylight with all those...

witnesses?

Not rocket science.

Why are police apologist so quick to come out when a black man is gunned downed by a panicking cop?

[Renew Deal]

47. So they are supposed to let the violent criminal to complete his original crime?

Why does the violent criminal get the benefit of the doubt but not the police officer responding to the call about a shooting?

[brush]

51. The two cops couldn't handle one man so wait for back up and pick him up later. As I said...

where was he going to hide in broad daylight with all those witnesses?

It was murder.

[Renew Deal]

53. So you would let an an obviously violent criminal wanted for a shooting go?

I’m glad you’re not a police officer.

[brush]

56. I'm glad you're not either. There'd be even more dead black men. It was murder. The video shows it.

Last edited Tue Mar 13, 2018, 03:23 PM - Edit history (1)

[Renew Deal]

57. Huh?

That doesn’t make sense.

[brush]

58. And your defending murder does?

[Renew Deal]

59. Is the police officer a victim in this case?

[brush]

60. THE POLICE OFFICER ISN'T DEAD.

[Renew Deal]

61. Is that the threshold?

The police officer needs to be dead before he can respond to violence against him?

[brush]

62. You must realize by now you're not making any sense. Disappointing, but defending murder always is.

[Renew Deal]

63. I think you realized long ago that your argument is tainted.

Think I’m wrong? Answer this to yourself. Do the police ever get the benefit of the doubt. If the answer is no, there is a bias.

[brush]

66. Stop defending killing unarmed black men. Don't you realize what you're revealing about yourself?

Now I'm done with you.

[Eliot Rosewater]

64. Killing black people for being black is a privilege many want to protect.

So expect strong push-back.

[ehrnst]

69. Hence the creation of Black Lives Matter.

It's a painful reality.

[ehrnst]

70. You are aware that murder is a specific legal term with specific legal definitions.

And death is included in that defintion.

It also includes motivation.

Sorry to seem to be a knee jerk, but I have heard the term murder used incorrectly far too many times by pro-forced pregnancy advocates, and it needs to be carefully deployed.

[brush]

79. Look at the video.

[rockfordfile]

88. What the hell is wrong with you? this isn't a video game. you sound like trump.

[christx30]

65. Why doesn't the violent criminal just surrender,

and get a lawyer? Anyone at this point should know that if you use violence against the police, they will kill you. There's no 2 ways about it. You will not get away. You will not force them to back off (unless you have like 50 other armed people on your side). You will not win. The cops are going to kill you and you can bet they are not going to face any repercussions. "Oh, the guy was violent? Oh, ok. Screw him, you guys did the right thing. Sorry I held you up."

[NurseJackie]

72. Probably there are some psychological factors at play.

[christx30]

99. My son is autistic. And sometimes, when he doesn't get his way,

he gets angry and lashes out with violence. Hitting, screaming, biting, kicking. He says horrible, racist things. "You're useless because you're black." He's 11 years old.
After about 20 minutes of holding him down and trying to stop him from hurting himself and us, he'll calm down. But the bruises that my wife has are still there. The bite marks on my arms and hands are still there. He kicked my wife in the face on Sunday.
So psychological factors don't prevent someone from harming others. So it shouldn't stop someone from defending themselves from someone that violent. It's up to the perpetrator of the crime to surrender. If he's violent, it's not up to his victim to defend them both.

[7962]

95. Your logic is meaningless here!

I expect you'll be corrected by the many experts on how to overpower someone attacking you.
Or by my personal stalker!

With everything being recored these days, it IS possible to win a case against a city (although the cop likely still gets off). But it does you no good if you're DEAD. Surrender, take the video to your atty

[Demsrule86]

44. No it doesn't in fact...it is sickening.

[HopeAgain]

54. 6 shots? While he's on the ground?

One shot maybe, but they always have to unload when the suspect is a minority...

[hunter]

49. I don't think most cops have the temperament to use firearms appropriately.

They are a danger to themselves and others.

(Obviously I have even less respect for "civilian" open-carry fools.)

"Suicide by cop" shouldn't be a thing.

[Renew Deal]

55. It goes back to the Mike Tyson saying: Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth

I essentially agree that people aren’t really really ready to use their weapons. This includes open carry wannabe heroes and people that want to arm teachers.

There is an argument to be made that this is another case where a problem was made worse by a gun. The criminal was wanted for a gun crime.

[matt819]

78. I think you're right

What is as frightening is that they do have the temperament to kill people and that this is their default mode.

[safeinOhio]

67. Same thing happen in

London and he would be alive.

[IcyPeas]

75. Exactly

What I was thinking. America #1 .... guns.

[7962]

98. Same thing happen in London & he probably would've surrendered.

And also probably would've been a lot more cops on scene. Since its London.

[EX500rider]

100. Probably depending on which London Police he attacked:

They aren't all unarmed Bobby's these days.

[safeinOhio]

101. Last year in England and Wales

A total of 6 people were killed by police, the most sense 2006. I wonder how many were not armed?

[Bayard]

68. I didn't see him grab the baton

Will have to watch again.

The second cop looked more like an onlooker. But I don't understand why the tazer didn't work.

Tulare is a farming community. Mostly migrant workers. Looks to me like the cop didn't have much training, and just panicked.

[gyroscope]

90. The guy could have been on crank

tazers and pepper spray may not have much effect on a meth head.

the cops tried spraying him but that didn't seem to work.

[7962]

96. Yeah, I dont get why sometimes a Taser does nothing. Maybe it got the loose shirt & no skin. nt

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

76. Don't punch the officer or rip the baton away, stop fighting

And comply.

What is with people who run or fight with police officers?

Stop listen follow directions how hard is this?

[Jedi Guy]

77. Apparently quite difficult.

I see a lot of condemnation of the cops on this thread and very few people asking why the suspect not only didn't surrender, but chose to go hands-on with the officers. If you get physical with cops it's gonna end badly, and most probably not for them.

I don't have much sympathy for the guy. He chose to resist with violence and lost. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

81. I'm sorry the guy lost his life

But we would not be discussing this had he complied.

[Jedi Guy]

82. Pretty much, yep. N/T

[hunter]

83. I have zero "sympathy" for the cop... except that if he's a good guy...

... he'll suffer this for the rest of his life.

That's the problem with guns. It's the "if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail" rule.

[Jedi Guy]

84. YMMV

Once the guy grabbed one of their batons the cops were done struggling with him. At that point they wanted to end the fight by any means necessary since the next item he grabbed might have been one of their guns.

That's the thing cops fear most during a struggle: the suspect getting hold of the cop's own gun.

In any case, I'm sure the cop will suffer psychologically over this, despite the certainty of most folks here that cops just can't wait to shoot a black dude. The vast majority of people can't just shrug off killing another human being. I'm willing to bet the cop will what-if the whole encounter, starting with wishing he'd called in sick today.

[hunter]

89. My own "what if" is that I don't let anyone I'd care to shoot live in my head.

Therefore I need no gun.

I'm an idiot, especially when I was as a young man, so I've survived rough situations.

People with guns have threatened me.

I have some nifty knife scars on my right arm. Who needs tattoos to brag on? Cut by, but still nobody I'd care to shoot.

I've never been in a situation where me holding a gun might have improved outcomes.

Once the guns come out everything is FUBAR.

[Egnever]

80. Sadly even that can't save you

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/?utm_term=.5fbc274174db