Hoyer: IRS distributing refunds during shutdown is illegal

[riversedge]

Source: thehill




By Mike Lillis - 01/08/19 11:51 AM EST



........................

“Literally, there are $140 billion, approximately, in tax refunds that won’t be able to be sent,” Hoyer said during his weekly press briefing in the Capitol.

...........................................

On Monday, the administration vowed that the shutdown will not delay the Internal Revenue Service’s distribution of those payments.

“Tax refunds will go out,” Russell Vought, the acting director of the White House Office of Management and Budget, told reporters on Monday.

The threat that tax refunds would be delayed was seen as a pressure point — and an advantage for Democrats — in the battle to reopen the government as Trump and Democratic leaders seem to be digging in on the issue of whether to provide billions of dollars for the president’s promised U.S.–Mexico border wall.

Hoyer said flatly that making the payments during the shutdown is illegal..........................

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/house/424327-hoyer-irs-refunds-during-shutdown-are-illegal

---

No doubt the RW fox will be yelling about how the Dems want to prevent folks from getting their refunds. sigh!

I susppose it would take a law suit to stop the IRS--but who will bring it??

[madville]

1. Is that the position we really want to take

Are Democratic leaders going to publicly demand and sue the administration to prevent tax refunds from going out? It absolutely will be framed as Democrats preventing people from getting their refunds.

[BumRushDaShow]

4. Democrats CANNOT sanction a violation of the Anti-Deficiency Act

Pub.L. 97–258 - http://www.legisworks.org/GPO/STATUTE-96-Pg877.pdf (PDF)

31 U.S. Code § 1341 - Limitations on expending and obligating amounts

(a)

(1) An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not—

(A) make or authorize an expenditure or obligation exceeding an amount available in an appropriation or fund for the expenditure or obligation;
(B) involve either government in a contract or obligation for the payment of money before an appropriation is made unless authorized by law;
(C) make or authorize an expenditure or obligation of funds required to be sequestered under section 252 of the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985; or
(D) involve either government in a contract or obligation for the payment of money required to be sequestered under section 252 of the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.

(2) This subsection does not apply to a corporation getting amounts to make loans (except paid in capital amounts) without legal liability of the United States Government.

(b) An article to be used by an executive department in the District of Columbia that could be bought out of an appropriation made to a regular contingent fund of the department may not be bought out of another amount available for obligation.
(Pub. L. 97–258, Sept. 13, 1982, 96 Stat. 923; Pub. L. 101–508, title XIII, § 13213(a), Nov. 5, 1990, 104 Stat. 1388–621.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/1341

U.S. CONSTITUTION

Article I

<...>

Section 9.

<...>

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

You let this happen and they will justify that every government employee is "essential to health and safety" (that term of which actually has a narrow scope) and thus you have now re-established slavery - everyone working without pay.

The cannot cherry-pick this and I say this as a retired 30+ year fed who went through the 2013 furlough and WAS furloughed (and went through the 1995/1996 ones as well, although my agency was funded back then so we had an appropriation and worked).

[Igel]

22. So what you're saying is that a tax refund--

based on the finding that the money was overpaid--requires a Congressional authorization?

Is there routinely an authorization from Congress saying that the IRS can disburse money that it shouldn't have possession of? In addition to the actual tax code, that is.

[BumRushDaShow]

23. The staff who would be reviewing the tax returns

(and I think in many cases, they started contracting that out again) are unauthorized to work unless they have an appropriation. That is the biggest issue. I.e., if the staff are not working under some type of "user fee" or "grant" money, which is not "budget authority" (appropriations) money, then they are unauthorized to work - where the amendments to the Anti-Deficiency Act have noted - unless the job is critical to "health and security" (life and limb).

And as I understand, monies that are paid to the government are put into "the Treasury" and then disbursed. So per the Constitution -

Article I

<...>

Section 9.

<...>

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

They were supposedly going to try to justify re-opening the IRS by insisting their jobs had something to do with protecting the health and safety/security of the nation.

[nitpicker]

28. +1

[LanternWaste]

8. Consistency of law overrides bumps in polling data.

"Oh dear, let's not follow the rule of law because some else will frame it as something else, regardless they do that with every damn thing..."

[MarcA]

9. Agreed.

Despite the legal points, and good luck explaining That to the general public,
Democrats will be presented as the Party delaying tax refunds not just by Rs,
but MSM and much of the public. Also, those not getting refunds but owing $$$,
more than you might think this year, will be delaying funds to the government
if this goes on for months.

[BumRushDaShow]

10. "Despite the legal points"

There is no "despite". The law is the damn law. FFS.

And "the law" means something that gets enacted by legislation developed BY CONGRESS (not by the Executive), where FULL FUNDING for the U.S. Department of the Treasury, under which the IRS operates, has been presented for a vote. And the GOP leader in the Senate refuses to bring any of the funding legislation up for a vote.

[MarcA]

13. And Reality is Reality, graphics and profane acronyms not withstanding.

Hurting people financially loses respect for government and the law.
McConnell and his ilk care only for the super wealthy. The Democrats
will be presented as Beltway lawyers and bureaucrats concerned with
legalisms over the people. Then it will be up to the Courts to decide
what the law is, but the damage will have been done.

[BumRushDaShow]

17. No that's the complete opposite of how Democrats have campaigned

and have presented themselves.

And your entire argument leaves out the fact that Democrats in the House already PASSED full appropriations for all un-funded agencies including the Department of the Treasury (which covers the IRS) but excluding DHS last week, yet Mitch McConnell BLOCKED consideration of that funding in the Senate.

So Democrats propose to break the funding down into smaller pieces, which IS about to happen this week per what I posted here - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2239149 with the Dept of Treasury as #1 on the list.

And what do you think will happen then? McConnell will most likely block it.

Put the blame where the blame belongs.

Edit to add this from 538 -

Apr. 15, 2016, at 6:00 AM
Everyone Files Their Taxes At The Last Minute

By Ben Casselman



Americans are a nation of procrastinators. Our tax returns prove it.

Last year, 21.5 million Americans1 waited until the last minute – or at least the last week – to submit their tax returns. That’s roughly one in seven filers, according to data from the Internal Revenue Service.

If anything, that count probably understates the number of people leaving it to the last minute. The figures are based on when the IRS received taxpayers’ forms, but the agency treats anything postmarked before the deadline as on-time. Last year, the IRS received nearly 6 million filings in the month after the April 15 filing deadline. (So far, this year’s filings are coming in at almost exactly the same rate as last year’s.)

Procrastinators get a few extra days this year. Friday is Emancipation Day in Washington, D.C., so tax returns aren’t due until Monday. And because Maine and Massachusetts celebrate Patriots Day on Monday, those two states’ residents get until Tuesday.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everyone-files-their-taxes-at-the-last-minute/

So for the average person, they won't be filing until that weekend before April 15th (which falls on a Monday).

[More_Cowbell]

20. I bet that the people expecting refunds file earlier, though. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

21. The entire form and what can be claimed has changed this year

So one can "rush" but that doesn't mean one is ready to file.

If anything the biggest "delay" is when businesses and governments actually send out the W-2s/1099s, etc. Many wait to the very last day of January to do so, so you can only actually attempt to file once you get your 2018 income/interest/dividend statements. I'm still waiting for OPM to make my 1099-R available (even if electronically), so until that happens, I can't do any filing "early".

[X_Digger]

25. I'm always in that left bar. As soon as I get all my docs.

Usually my mortgage company is the latest, and I'm the tail end of the first week of february.

[BumRushDaShow]

26. I usually do too

but I am single and renting (at the moment), no kids/dependents, so it's easier. But when you have families that may have a couple, with several kids, and one spouse has 2 part-time jobs and sometime during the year, collected unemployment, and then maybe the other spouse was self-employed and drives their own truck, and also works a 2nd job seasonally, that alone makes it more complicated.

And then for this first full year under the new tax law, when a good chunk of people discover their withholdings were not enough if they DO try to file "early", and thus discover they owe, then that is the end of that.

[watoos]

15. Yip, I totally agree.

Why don't we just give the House's purse strings to Trump and let him decide how and when to spend money.

People who agree with violating the law must want Trump to be anointed king?

[BumRushDaShow]

19. I can't believe

there are people on DU advocating this type of law-breaking by a political party. And we're not talking "civil disobedience" type stuff either.

There are current and former federal government workers who have been suspended/fired/fined/jailed for violating this law that deals with "unauthorized procurements".

I have posted a number of times over the years that this country is operating off of an "honor system". As soon as that is tossed by the wayside, we WILL become what so many dystopian movies show.

[X_Digger]

24. Yes, let's just set aside the law when it's unpopular.

Did I just read that right?

[herding cats]

2. I was just going over how complicated it would be to process tax returns...

And issue refund checks (which is done by a different part of the Treasury Dept). There are so many moving parts in the process, I don't see how you do it without fully reopening the Treasury Dept.

[study war no more]

3. but....

if we didn't get our tax returns
if we didn't get mail delivered
if we didn't get our social security checks
if we didn't get our ......

more people would feel the pain those 800,000 are feeling and possibly insist that their prez stands down. Right now, the majority of Americans say 'it's not impacting my life.'

[Nasruddin]

5. Embezzlement

Isn't this a kind of embezzlement?

[Yavin4]

7. Stop saying "Embezzlement"

You're getting Trump aroused.

[Chemisse]

6. Maybe the Dems should submit a bill to reopen the Treasury Dept so it can be done legally.

Since the House is sending out bills to reopen parts piece by piece, maybe this would work.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. They already HAVE

They first passed 2 bills - one funding EVERYONE remaining for the rest of the fiscal year except Homeland Security and the other to have Homeland Security operate under a Continuing Resolution until February 8th in order to provide time to negotiate border security and immigration issues that is covered under that department.

Mitch McConnell REFUSED to bring that up for a vote in the Senate.

They are now planning to break the appropriations bills down into smaller "minibuses" including one that would fund the Department of the Treasury (which is the parent to the IRS) -

Link to tweet

TEXT
Nancy Pelosi
✔
@SpeakerPelosi

Next week, @HouseDemocrats will begin passing individual appropriations bills to re-open all government agencies, starting with the Department of the Treasury & IRS – an action necessary to make sure working families receive their tax refunds on schedule. #TrumpShutdown
51.3K
4:43 PM - Jan 5, 2019

The problem here is that Mitch McConnell can block these too. This is not on the Democrats, it's on the GOP.

[bluestarone]

18. You are RIGHT!!!!!!!!!

It's ILLEGAL that's all there is to it. If The RETHUGS don't support Pelosi then the RETHUGS OWN IT!!!!!!!!!!

[old guy]

11. If we are indeed a nation of laws,

if we are governed by the rule of law, if no one is above the law, the law must prevail. If the law prevents the refunds during the shut down, the law must prevail IMO.

[OnlinePoker]

14. Are politicians being paid during the shutdown?

That should be illegal. If workers are expected to work with no pay, it should be the same for the leadership.

[watoos]

16. Tomorrow Pelosi is submitting a bill to reopen the IRS.

This is an illegal move by Trump to try to turn the tables on Democrats.

Who cares what Fox says, the law is the law. Maybe we can let Trump end the shutdown for Republicans who aren't getting paid?

[DrToast]

27. Well have the fill government open by December, piece by piece.

[BumRushDaShow]

29. Democrats can submit any bill they want from the House

but as long as Mitch McConnell refuses to bring those bills up for debate/revision/vote in the Senate, then nothing will happen.

No one chamber can automatically pass a law without the other chamber's approval and the President's signature or consent (i.e., allowing it to become law without signature after 10 days).