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at140

(6,106 posts)
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 06:45 PM Apr 2019

Nadler: I don't understand why Mueller didn't charge Donald Trump Jr.,Others in Trump Tower meeting

Source: the hill.com

Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said Sunday that he doesn't understand why special counsel Robert Mueller didn't charge Donald Trump Jr. and others involved in the 2016 Trump Tower meeting with criminal conspiracy.

Nadler, appearing on NBC's "Meet the Press," noted that Mueller said he didn't bring charges against those in the meeting because he couldn't prove they willfully intended to commit a crime.

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/439902-nadler-i-dont-understand-why-mueller-didnt-charge-donald-trump-jr



Junior was thrilled to hear Russia was going to help his dad. Manafort & Jared Kushner also felt this was an important meeting and attended. Then 45 lied and said he never heard about this meeting until afterwards. Yeah right, and I still believe in tooth fairy, even after half my teeth are gone.
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Nadler: I don't understand why Mueller didn't charge Donald Trump Jr.,Others in Trump Tower meeting (Original Post) at140 Apr 2019 OP
I don't understand this either. I find it to be cowardly MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #1
Whatever happened to "ignorance of the law is no defense"? Freethinker65 Apr 2019 #2
Campaign finance law violations are specific intent crimes. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #3
But he didn't even investigate it. He didn't interview Don Jr. under oath... PeeJ52 Apr 2019 #5
Maybe that's a question that a House committee member could ask. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #8
You can determine intent by their actions, such as LYING about it. lagomorph777 Apr 2019 #44
So if there had actually been some dirt and they paid for it then it madville Apr 2019 #21
"ignorance of the law is no defense"?... only applies if you are 'rich.' pangaia Apr 2019 #12
"ignorance of the law is no defense" LiberalLovinLug Apr 2019 #40
"Ignorance of the law is no defense" is something said by those who have not been to law school. former9thward Apr 2019 #57
Well, then a lot folks here need to appolgize to Glenn Greenwald LiberalLovinLug Apr 2019 #61
No Democrat in any position to do anything about it... TwilightZone Apr 2019 #62
lol. What has he lied about? LiberalLovinLug Apr 2019 #64
No way in the world Paul Manafort didn't know it was illegal ElementaryPenguin Apr 2019 #63
I don't KNOW why, but here is a possible reason: if he'd indicted DT Jr, his daddy would have Atticus Apr 2019 #4
Is it also possible that a state prosecutor can take action, perhaps? Jedi Guy Apr 2019 #19
Everyone except Cohen is getting a pardon before he leaves office madville Apr 2019 #22
I think it probably is because of the reason Mueller stated. Honeycombe8 Apr 2019 #24
My understanding is THEY'RE ALL REPUBLICANS! blueinredohio Apr 2019 #6
B-I-N-G-O! n/t mazzarro Apr 2019 #35
"Couldn't prove they willfully intended to to commit a crime" ThoughtCriminal Apr 2019 #7
Did they lie because they knew they'd committed a crime or because The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #10
/This/ at140 Apr 2019 #16
And, on top of that, Igel Apr 2019 #51
Nadler sure as hell better subpoena Jr. Jared and Ivanka Fiendish Thingy Apr 2019 #9
MY FEELING AS WELL.. pangaia Apr 2019 #13
or a Stepford wife! at140 Apr 2019 #15
Might he not have simply passed it on to someone else to investigate? cstanleytech Apr 2019 #11
Well, there are 12 redacted cases, so who knows? The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #17
Do you believe Mueller said he wasn't going to prosecute this hughee99 Apr 2019 #45
I'm curious about that, as well. Jedi Guy Apr 2019 #20
I'll betcha 3$ he did just that, tech!! Also, when I see jr mentioned, I always post this!: Leghorn21 Apr 2019 #27
That makes two of us. BlueStater Apr 2019 #14
Well, neither do I. Was Mueller too lazy to do the heavy lifting? jrthin Apr 2019 #18
I think that's a concern. It was a big job presumably near the end of his career. Hoyt Apr 2019 #29
Look, Mueller is no dummy. Had he indicted Jr, Jared or Ivanka, pardons would have... machoneman Apr 2019 #23
He lied to congress - that's perjury Jarqui Apr 2019 #25
Did anyone in Congress send Mueller a referal about Trump Jr. lying to Congress? Kaleva Apr 2019 #33
Because Barr emulatorloo Apr 2019 #26
We need answers sooner rather than later SHRED Apr 2019 #28
Nadler's theory: Neil Sheehan meeting Ellsberg to get Pentagon Papers was criminal Cicada Apr 2019 #30
Oh, please. The Steele Dossier was originally repug oppo research against trump... brush Apr 2019 #32
Hillary getting dirt from Steele was legal, same with Don Jr. Cicada Apr 2019 #34
Did you not get that the repugs were the ones who first hired Steele. brush Apr 2019 #41
No. Steele wasn't hired by Fusion GPS until after the Dems hughee99 Apr 2019 #46
I repeat, the Steele Dossier was a repug oppo operation against trump. brush Apr 2019 #47
"Did you not get that the repugs were the ones who first hired Steele." hughee99 Apr 2019 #48
"...after the repugs stopped funding the work." brush Apr 2019 #49
Do you? YOU said the republicans first hired Steele. hughee99 Apr 2019 #50
OK, I get it. The concept of repugs paying and hiring are different things to you. brush Apr 2019 #52
Ah, I get it, when you said the repukes first hired Steele, hughee99 Apr 2019 #53
I'll try to remember. Hiring and funding are totally different things. brush Apr 2019 #54
I'll try to remember, you are responsible for what a company does even after you're no longer hughee99 Apr 2019 #55
Whatever. The repugs are who begin paying for the Steele Dossier. brush Apr 2019 #56
Yes, there is information in the Dossier that the republicans paid for. hughee99 Apr 2019 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author pecosbob Apr 2019 #31
People that made billons of dollors... Maxheader Apr 2019 #36
Yes! They are the real puppet masters at140 Apr 2019 #39
This is Exhibit B in my animus for Mueller. lark Apr 2019 #37
It's so disappointingly disturbing. n/t sprinkleeninow Apr 2019 #59
Don't forget the SCO noted witnesses lied or invoked their DeminPennswoods Apr 2019 #38
take a wild guess? What is Mueller? He shielded the un-American Republicans rockfordfile Apr 2019 #42
I am not so sure.. at140 Apr 2019 #43
Now we learn that Jr refused to testify voluntarily DeminPennswoods Apr 2019 #60

Freethinker65

(9,813 posts)
2. Whatever happened to "ignorance of the law is no defense"?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 06:51 PM
Apr 2019

Jr. and others knew exactly what they were doing. They just figured they would never get caught nor have to suffer any consequences for their actions. Well, they got caught AND suffered no consequences. Must be nice.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,527 posts)
3. Campaign finance law violations are specific intent crimes.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 06:58 PM
Apr 2019

In other words, you have to intend to do a thing and you have to know that the thing is illegal, unlike general intent crimes where you just have to intend to do the act. As I read the report, Mueller didn't think he had enough proof that Beavis (or was it Butthead?) knew that getting dirt about Hillary from the Russians was actually illegal. Prosecutors would also have to prove that the "dirt" had a monetary value.

 

PeeJ52

(1,588 posts)
5. But he didn't even investigate it. He didn't interview Don Jr. under oath...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:12 PM
Apr 2019

How can you determine intent if you never even talk to someone?

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
44. You can determine intent by their actions, such as LYING about it.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 03:51 PM
Apr 2019

That certainly demonstrates consciousness of guilt.

madville

(7,395 posts)
21. So if there had actually been some dirt and they paid for it then it
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:46 PM
Apr 2019

all would have been legal and called "opposition research" at that point?

IF they really didn't know that nonexistent "dirt" might potentially have had a monetary value as a campaign donation then there can't be a conspiracy case. It all seems pretty thin since the meeting turned into a bait and switch and no actual "dirt" was presented.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,137 posts)
40. "ignorance of the law is no defense"
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:51 PM
Apr 2019

Yes, I don't get it.

"On the facts here, the government would unlikely be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the June 9 meeting participants had general knowledge that their conduct was unlawful. The investigation has not developed evidence that the participants in the meeting were familiar with the foreign-contribution ban or the application of federal law to the relevant factual context," Mueller added.


Why did Mueller think he had to PROVE the participants had "general knowledge that their conduct was unlawful" as a perquisite to indicting them?

Does that mean the law has to PROVE that I had "general knowledge that my conduct was unlawful" if I get caught stealing, or shooting someone?

If you, or your close advisors, don't know the legal rules you have to play by to run for and win a political race....especially considering its for the highest political office in the damned country, you shouldn't be running for that office!

Mueller wimped out. In the end he bowed to Saint Ronnies 11th commandment

former9thward

(31,461 posts)
57. "Ignorance of the law is no defense" is something said by those who have not been to law school.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:39 PM
Apr 2019

It is a defense depending on the law. In this case intent to break the law must be shown. There was no evidence of that. Mueller did not "wimp" out. He followed the law. In any case this is campaign finance law. The penalties are almost always fines. Not something any prosecutor is going to get excited about in a case like this.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,137 posts)
61. Well, then a lot folks here need to appolgize to Glenn Greenwald
Tue Apr 23, 2019, 01:13 PM
Apr 2019

And others that were warning about Democrats putting all their eggs in the Mueller basket.

TwilightZone

(24,614 posts)
62. No Democrat in any position to do anything about it...
Tue Apr 23, 2019, 01:48 PM
Apr 2019

put all their eggs in the Mueller basket.

DU is not the real world. In the real world, there are multiple investigations ongoing, some of which have nothing to do with the Mueller report. These investigations began at almost the exact moment that Democrats were in a position to pursue them.

As for Greenwald, he should apologize to everyone for being a lying hack.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,137 posts)
64. lol. What has he lied about?
Tue Apr 23, 2019, 03:33 PM
Apr 2019

He was right that the Mueller investigation would not produce the results Democrats were hoping for, for the very reasons that were finally given. That they would never find enough evidence that Trump knew enough or deliberately colluded or conspired with Putin, and that the obstruction charges would never be enough, limited as Mueller was.

If Democrats were so on board with that, why were some on here calling for Greenwalds head?

It was Rachel Maddow and the rest of the news media's responsibility to pursue all angles, and also you could include late night comedians, that's all fine and good, but it was for Democrats to go on air and say that whatever the Mueller report says, that is not as important as what the GOP are doing right NOW. Trump or no Trump. Trump is just the stooge. Much like GWB was, but in a different way, harder to handle. But in the end, its the GOP reps, many who will be here long after Trump, and the bills they are passing and dismantling, that should have been crowed about by Democratic reps and let the investigation go where it will. Maybe some tried to take the spotlight off of Trump, but not enough. He has always been the low hanging orange.

ElementaryPenguin

(7,800 posts)
63. No way in the world Paul Manafort didn't know it was illegal
Tue Apr 23, 2019, 02:03 PM
Apr 2019

As he certainly would have informed the others - including the orange menace himself.

Evidently, Mueller is a conservator prosecutor who only tries (and always wins) slam dunk cases.

But his report has given us enough to impeach Trump many times over.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
4. I don't KNOW why, but here is a possible reason: if he'd indicted DT Jr, his daddy would have
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:11 PM
Apr 2019

pardoned him. Game over. But---

---with the evidence he found plus what is publicly known, when Trump loses in 2020, a new and unbeholden AG can indict him, convict him and put him away.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
19. Is it also possible that a state prosecutor can take action, perhaps?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:25 PM
Apr 2019

I know that Mueller's findings resulted in several spin-off investigations in other jurisdictions, like SDNY. Maybe it's possible for that to happen in this instance. Though campaign finance violations might be specifically federal crimes, so a state may not be able to take action on those. Not a lawyer, so I'm just spitballing.

madville

(7,395 posts)
22. Everyone except Cohen is getting a pardon before he leaves office
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:56 PM
Apr 2019

There is no way they are going to take their chances when a new Democratic administration is slated to come in. They'll have two months between losing the election and handing the administration over, they can basically preemptively pardon everyone for any federal crime they think they may be vulnerable to.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
24. I think it probably is because of the reason Mueller stated.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:34 PM
Apr 2019

Which I think means that they were all naive and didn't realize it would be criminal, so no willful intent.

I don't buy that reason, but that's the reason he gave, apparently. (I haven't read the report myself, though, yet.)

I don't think Mueller is playing a slick strategy game. It seems he went after the Russians, got them, and then delineated the bad behavior of Trump & family without getting into sticky legal stuff involving a President, and closed the book. If Congress wants to get into the ugly sticky legal stuff, he left it to them.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,527 posts)
10. Did they lie because they knew they'd committed a crime or because
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:39 PM
Apr 2019

they knew what they did would be politically embarrassing or damaging if it got out? To that bunch, political damage was more worrisome than criminality.

Igel

(35,090 posts)
51. And, on top of that,
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:02 PM
Apr 2019

misrepresentation happened months later. In the interim, even if they had learned it would have been a crime but at the time they didn't know, they'd lie to cover it up but "it" wouldn't have been a crime.

It's not like the event happened and on the way out of the building they were deposed by the special counsel.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,047 posts)
9. Nadler sure as hell better subpoena Jr. Jared and Ivanka
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:38 PM
Apr 2019

No executive privilege either, for any period before the inauguration.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
13. MY FEELING AS WELL..
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:54 PM
Apr 2019

Those 2 guys are sickos and Ivanka is.. I think she is an alien robot, frankly...

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
45. Do you believe Mueller said he wasn't going to prosecute this
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:17 PM
Apr 2019

In his report, but actually is? I don’t think that will help things for Dems, and will probably help republicans.

Jedi Guy

(3,160 posts)
20. I'm curious about that, as well.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:31 PM
Apr 2019

The investigation resulted in lots of spin-off investigations and such, so perhaps that'll happen here as well. I guess it'll depend a lot on whether or not a state prosecutor can go after them, since it might be the sole province of the feds for this specific crime. I'm not a lawyer, though, so I'm not sure on that.

Leghorn21

(13,491 posts)
27. I'll betcha 3$ he did just that, tech!! Also, when I see jr mentioned, I always post this!:
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:16 PM
Apr 2019

Don't forget Spanish prosecutor Jose Grinda said that Don Jr should be "very concerned" about wiretaps of his meetings w Putin crony Alexander Torshin (also NRA's contact in Russia). Grinda turned those wiretaps over to FBI.

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-jr-should-be-concerned-over-putin-allys-wiretapped-calls-spanish-945753

Hang tough, everybody—-

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
29. I think that's a concern. It was a big job presumably near the end of his career.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:40 PM
Apr 2019

I’m still working at near his age, but I’m not taking on another really big project, especially one where half the country is going to hate me unless it is really finessed.

machoneman

(3,905 posts)
23. Look, Mueller is no dummy. Had he indicted Jr, Jared or Ivanka, pardons would have...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:08 PM
Apr 2019

flown faster than the monkeys in the Wizard of Oz!

Instead, handing off any and all indictments to the NYS AG's office ensure that if and or when (we hope!) they all get their indictment papers Trump can do NOTHING to save there sorry asses.

Jarqui

(10,059 posts)
25. He lied to congress - that's perjury
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:05 PM
Apr 2019

Are they saying that because he's Trump son, he didn't know lying to congress was a bad thing?

Same with Corsi.

And they stopped working their way up the responsibility tree to see who else they could flip?

Maybe they didn't want to provoke Trump who might have lashed out if they charged his son. Or Bill Barr stepped in and shut it down after they argued about it Mar 5th.

Deutsche Bank loaning Trump hundreds of millions after he defaults on his loans? How is that possible under normal business conditions when no other bank would touch him?

$30 million USD in Russian money going to the NRA and their ad buying mirrors the Trump campaign with two different ad companies that employ the same people? And there's not a peep out of Mueller on that?

Something is up. Another shoe has to drop.

This isn't over.

Kaleva

(36,025 posts)
33. Did anyone in Congress send Mueller a referal about Trump Jr. lying to Congress?
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:38 AM
Apr 2019

That's how Cohen got charged.

"The Cohen guilty plea to false congressional testimony developed from a criminal referral Democratic Sen. Mark Warner sent to Mueller. So there you go"

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/11/cohen-pleads-guilty-to-lying-to-congress-in-new-deal-with-mueller-after-70-hours-of-testimony/

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
30. Nadler's theory: Neil Sheehan meeting Ellsberg to get Pentagon Papers was criminal
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:42 PM
Apr 2019

If Neil Sheehan of the New York Times had encouraged Ellsberg to steal Pentagon papers then he would be guilty. But simply meeting Ellsberg to get the stolen papers is not a crime. How is Don Jr different from Neil Sheehan? I think Mueller knows the law better than Nadler does. The first amendment, which protects the right of the public to learn about candidates for public office, blocks prosecution of Don Jr. for trying to get information about Clinton. If Clinton agreed to meet Steele to get information about Trump stolen from Russian files would she too be a criminal? No. Mueller knows what is legal and what is protected by the first amendment.

brush

(52,869 posts)
32. Oh, please. The Steele Dossier was originally repug oppo research against trump...
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:09 AM
Apr 2019

by another repug primary challenger. When trump prevailed the Clinton campaign took over funding of Steele, a respected British covert operative, hardly the same as Jr. and Kushner and Manafort meeting with Russians directly in trump tower with daddy waiting to see the Hillary dirt gained.

Or of trump calling for "Russia if you're listening...", and they were as the Russian-supplied Wikileaks dump of Dem emails soon followed. IMO that's no different than Nixon's plumbers breaking into Dem offices in Watergate and stealing info that the Nixon campaign received. That's called receiving stolen property. The only difference being the info received by the Nixon campaign was hard, paper documents. The trump info received was electronic but still stolen.

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
34. Hillary getting dirt from Steele was legal, same with Don Jr.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 03:55 AM
Apr 2019

Nadler’s theory:arranging receipt of stolen information is a crime. He’s wrong. Newspapers arrange receipt of stolen information every day. The Supreme Court has made it clear that the law against getting stolen property does not apply to information useful to the public to make public decisions. If it is legal for Clinton to arrange getting info Steele obtained contrary to the secrecy laws of Russia, contrary to Turkish laws about mail privacy then it is also legal for Don Jr to get info Russia got illegally. Nadler’s view of the law would jail almost every reporter in the US. We have a right to know about the creepy things Trump does. So too we have a right to know the creepy things Hillary does or Podesta does. Trump is a big time criminal. He deserves jail. But getting dirt on Hillary, assuming you do not encourage illegality in getting it, is protected because we have a right to know the truth about our public figures. Our right to know is essential to our democracy. Even when a creep like Don Jr is bringing us the information. Do you really want to block the public from learning about political candidates? Nadler’s theory would do that. This time Don Jr gets punished. Next time with Nadler’s law Cory Booker getting a leak from a bank employee with proof Trump gets illegal mob money will be jailed. No.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
46. No. Steele wasn't hired by Fusion GPS until after the Dems
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:24 PM
Apr 2019

Started footing the bills, in June 2016. Some of the content from before was included in the reports, but Steele was the one with the Russian contacts, and was hired, in part, for that access.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
48. "Did you not get that the repugs were the ones who first hired Steele."
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:45 PM
Apr 2019

No, they did not first hire Steele. Steele was not hired until June, after the repugs stopped funding the work.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
50. Do you? YOU said the republicans first hired Steele.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:02 PM
Apr 2019

But neither actually hired him. He was hired by fusion gps, and they didn’t hire him until AFTER the republicans stopped paying and the Dems started.

brush

(52,869 posts)
52. OK, I get it. The concept of repugs paying and hiring are different things to you.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:07 PM
Apr 2019

Not me. They're the same thing.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
53. Ah, I get it, when you said the repukes first hired Steele,
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:23 PM
Apr 2019

You were wrong and want to pretend you weren’t.

If I drew a Venn diagram where one circle contained “Fusion GPS work that the republicans paid for”, and the other circle contains “work performed for fusion FPS by Christopher Steele”, those two circles would never overlap.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
55. I'll try to remember, you are responsible for what a company does even after you're no longer
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:34 PM
Apr 2019

paying them to do work and someone else is.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
58. Yes, there is information in the Dossier that the republicans paid for.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:02 PM
Apr 2019

But much of the Russia information is related to Steele and his Russian contacts. Information the republicans didn't get during the primary when they were paying for it, because Steele had not yet been hired. The republicans paid for opposition research, research that was added to the "Steele Dossier" which wasn't written up until later, and that information that did not come from Steele (even though is "name" is on the dossier).

Response to at140 (Original post)

Maxheader

(4,362 posts)
36. People that made billons of dollors...
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:28 AM
Apr 2019

off the new tax laws..

Don't want any bad press about their enabler..

And they can exert a lot of pressure..

at140

(6,106 posts)
39. Yes! They are the real puppet masters
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 11:01 AM
Apr 2019

and the politicians and media are their puppets. 100% tax payer funded campaigns is the ONLY way to REDUCE corruption in politics. At least that will eliminate need for lobbyists.

lark

(22,805 posts)
37. This is Exhibit B in my animus for Mueller.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:55 AM
Apr 2019

He failed to follow the treason trails!!! My guess is he was ordered not to and followed orders - it's what "good" soldiers do. Exhibit A is knowing team drumpf lied 157 times about Russia and he says nothing to see here, they're too stupid to commit criminal conspiracy. This is just total and utter Russian Repug BS and Mueller should be ashamed of himself.

DeminPennswoods

(15,231 posts)
38. Don't forget the SCO noted witnesses lied or invoked their
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:02 AM
Apr 2019

5th amendment privilege during interviews. That's what it made it hard for the SCO to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the standard they used to determine criminality.

at140

(6,106 posts)
43. I am not so sure..
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:31 PM
Apr 2019

First, Mueller is a close friend of Comey. Second he is from the Bush wing of Repugs who hate Trump. Third he hired lawyers for the imvestigation who are mostly pro-democratic party. Mueller worked very hard to find evidence but simply did not enough to indict.

DeminPennswoods

(15,231 posts)
60. Now we learn that Jr refused to testify voluntarily
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:40 PM
Apr 2019

about the meeting. That goes to the heart of intent when the guy who set up the meeting won't talk.

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